Avoiding paperwork for future gun purchases

[guardian]

I've decided that for all future purchases I plan to buy in such a way that there is no paperwork or record of gun ownership. I will avoid purchase from FFLs to avoid them having a record of my ever purchasing a weapon.

I will comply with current law and make purchases in a legal way. In my state one can buy from individuals without any background check, pay cash, and have no record/registration of a particular firearm. There is no statewide requirement for gun registration.

However, if the day ever comes where

1. we have national gun registration or
2. a gun ban like Australia/Great Britain/Belgium or
3. another Katrina-like illegal seizure of private firearms

I want no record of gun ownership. I will lie to authorities and deny possession of firearms.

[TheWraith]

1. A 4473 is not actually a record of ownership.

It's simply a record of transfer. If you buy a weapon from a dealer, there's evidence you bought it, but not that you still own it. I'm all for privacy but I think you're going to somewhat absurd extremes.

[gravity556]

2. The ATF regularly copies all the 4473s in a gun shop..

Sure, it's illegal for them to build a registry, and I'm sure they only copy the 4473s for "compliance" and would never ever misuse that data. Except they've already been caught with their collective dicks in the dog, using Brady check info to compile lists of gun owners.

Sadly, I suffered a fire on my houseboat and all my guns ended up on the bottom of the lake...

[guardian]

4. I don't even want them knocking on my door. n/t

One man's extreme is another man's being prudent.

[rfranklin]

11. One man's being prudent is another man's paranoia...

The government can incinerate you at a moment's notice.

[guardian]

12. Hence the point of the 2nd amendment. n/t

[PavePusher]

29. So there should be a balance to that power, don't you think? n/t

[rfranklin]

37. That's a laugh...your little popguns versus a Predator?

That's a false sense of security for sure.

[friendly_iconoclast]

54. Seems to be lots of "little popguns" in Afghanistan. How are Predators doing against them?

I'd also point out that that if TSHTF here, there are lots of Americans who could build at a bare minimum a

crude RF jammer- and some can build much more sophisticated stuff...

[rfranklin]

58. Maybe you could whip up some IEDs while you're at it....

You've been reading too many comic books.

[eqfan592]

61. Comic books?

Try history, which you clearly have not been reading nearly enough of, including very recent history.

[PavePusher]

65. Common household chemicals, some bowls and spoons....

a few tupperware containers and some wire, hardware and batteries from Lowe's or Radio shack....

:nuke:

[PavePusher]

56. You don't seem to know much about Civil War, or assymetrical warfare.

Using Predators inside U.S. borders on American Citizens?

You obviously don't know shit about the U.S. military either.

[rfranklin]

57. Posse comitatus expired under Bush...

"Through a gradual erosion of the act’s prohibitions over the past 20 years, posse comitatus today is more of a procedural formality than an actual impediment to the use of U.S. military forces in homeland defense."

http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/trebilcock.htm

It only took a few paragraphs in a $500 billion, 591-page bill to raze one of the most important limits on federal power. Congress passed the Insurrection Act in 1807 to severely restrict the president's ability to deploy the military within the United States. The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 tightened these restrictions, imposing a two-year prison sentence on anyone who used the military within the U.S. without the express permission of Congress. But there is a loophole: Posse Comitatus is waived if the president invokes the Insurrection Act.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2008/09/24/army

Perhaps you should keep up with the news.

[eqfan592]

60. You VERY clearly missed his point.

It's not about the president being able to make the order, it's about the troops following such an order as a whole.

[PavePusher]

64. Exactly, thank you. n/t

[Euromutt]

3. Given present circumstances, I'm inclined to think that you're being overly cautious

I could see why you'd come to such a decision in the immediate wake of Katrina, for example, but the way things have been going over the past several years, I don't think any of the scenarios you describe bears much likelihood of coming to pass. I'm not going to say "it can't happen here," but it happening here within the foreseeable future is vanishingly unlikely.

[eqfan592]

5. Just take up fishing and you should be covered!

Just look at me, I used to have a fairly nice collection of firearms, but through a series of unfortunate fishing accidents I'm left with nothing! ;)

[guardian]

8. I used to think that might be good enough

but now I am not so sure. Now I think it's better to have a plan for hiding the 'good stuff' and keep a few cheap 'show' guns of the appropriate caliber to be available for confiscation in event of another Katrina-like police action response to emergency.

As far as potential legislation and gun bans, in those instances we'll have plenty of lead time to make plans. There will be plenty of time to buy a plastic bag vacuum sealer, lots of capped PVC pipe and plumbers cement, and make use of a shovel and a GPS...or relocate to a friendly state if not a national ban.

[one-eyed fat man]

59. In truth

If you really think you need to bury your guns it is probably time to be digging them up.

[ileus]

10. Fish steal guns out of capsized boats.

I've heard about this dozens, and dozens of times.


I lost all mine while duck hunting...

[eqfan592]

15. Yep, it's true!

And this is the result:

[safeinOhio]

6. Last time I bought a handgun from a private source,

a yard sale, I took it to the police dep. to have it checked to make sure it was not stolen or used in a crime.

If for some reason you ever had to defend your home, even legally, what are you going to do? Not use your gun as it will be part of a crime investigation and be on record? Would you report any of them as stolen if your home is broken into?

To those that will tell the cops all of your guns were lost a while back, you'd lie to the cops, a felony? Then never be able to use said guns if needed? never collect on any insurance and never get them back if stolen.

Sounds like a can of worms to me.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

7. When the cops are coming around to confiscate them...

...worrying about lying to them will be the last thing on my mind.

[safeinOhio]

33. 44 million gun owners in the USA.

Most likely take 3 or 4 cops to go house to house and take the guns. So, where are they gonna get those 176 million cops? They'd have to do it in a day or two or they would all get stashed as the word got out.

There is paranoia and then there is bat shit crazy paranoia.
:tinfoilhat:

[eqfan592]

34. You seriously need to learn to think outside the box a bit, safe. Nt

[safeinOhio]

35. I am thinking out side the box.

They want your guns. Two places would make easier for them.

1. Get Grove Norquist to give them the list of NRA paid members.

2. Get the CCW holders, got the list already.

So, do you not have a CCW registered with the local and state police?

I can protect myself from real dangers.

[eqfan592]

46. That's not really thinking outside of the box.

In fact, that's pretty solidly within the box. ;) There's some posts further down that are along the lines of what I'm talking about.

And no, as of yet I do not have a concealed carry permit. But I'm glad to hear you can protect yourself from "real dangers," whatever that's supposed to mean...

[oneshooter]

52. This confuses me.......

"So, do you not have a CCW registered with the local and state police?"

The Texas DPS does not have a list of CCW weapons. Texas does not have registration of firearms.

Apparently unlike Ohio, Texas trusts its residents.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[RSillsbee]

51. I'd say your numbers are a little low NT

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LAGC]

44. Lying to cops is only a misdemeanor, NOT a felony. (n/t)

[ileus]

63. By the time they're knocking on doors, lying may be an instant DP

[PavePusher]

66. Then I suggest that the "knockers" not lie to me....

or perhaps not be knocking at all.

[PavePusher]

9. "Geocaching".

Just sayin'.....

[slackmaster]

13. If you are interested in curios and relics, a type 03 FFL is well worth the investment

I just renewed mine recently. It's $30 for three years.

[-..__...]

19. Yep... it is worth the investment, but...

you also have to contend with keeping records, and allowing an ATF inspector to check your firearms and record keeping.

Somehow I have a feeling that's the last thing the OP wants.

[TheWraith]

27. As I recall, such audits are actually almost nonexistant.

Only if they suspect you're dealing in firearms as a business, I believe.

[slackmaster]

40. I've had the licence for more than six years and have not been contacted by BATFE

Other than regular mailings.

I don't know anyone who has been audited.

[-..__...]

42. I used to think the same thing...

until I was audited about 3 years ago.

I wasn't the only one either.

Posters on a few firearms related forums were reporting the same thing at around the same time.

No specific reasons were given for the inspections, and they seemed to be somewhat random.

The audit itself was painless, I didn't even have to meet with him at my residence, instead we hooked-up at the range I'm a member of.

The inspector just checked the firearms I had (4), and verified they were in my bound book.

I'm guessing the C&R audits are rare (I might get called again in 3-5-10 years or never), ... but they do happen.

One interesting thing I learned, the compliance inspectors aren't allowed to posses a C&R license.

[bluerum]

14. .

[spin]

16. The government probably knows you own firearms ...

I'm sure they know I do or could find out quickly if they suddenly became interested in me. The may not know the type of firearm I own but they might know the calibers.

I have a carry permit. I use a credit card to buy firearms and ammo. I'm an NRA member and I belong to the USCCA (United States Concealed Carry Association). I post in the Gungeon on DU and state in my posts what firearms I own. I get email from shooters and I reply and discuss firearms and shooting.

Government Increasingly Turning to Data Mining
By Arshad Mohammed and Sara Kehaulani Goo
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, June 15, 2006

***snip***

As federal agencies delve into the vast commercial market for consumer information, such as buying habits and financial records, they are tapping into data that would be difficult for the government to accumulate but that has become a booming business for private companies.

Industry executives, analysts and watchdog groups say the federal government has significantly increased what it spends to buy personal data from the private sector, along with the software to make sense of it, since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. They expect the sums to keep rising far into the future.

***snip***

Companies keep an increasing amount of data about everyone -- tracking their buying, travel, bank transactions and bill-paying habits. Data mining uses mathematical formulas to look for patterns in those behaviors. The results could enable the grocery store to send out targeted coupons, or, in theory, help the government decide how likely it may be that someone is linked to terrorist groups.

***snip***

Even critics say data mining can be effective in targeted circumstances, such as gathering information about known suspects. But the government's wide interest in the technology disturbs privacy advocates, who say the vast commercial data industry provides a ready-made window into private lives that the government would be unable to legally assemble on its own.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/14/AR2006061402063.html

FBI Calls for Backdoor to Snoop Web
by Alex Jones on Friday, February 18, 2011 at 10:24am

The FBI is once again calling for the internet to be converted into a Stasi-like spy grid. “Web-based e-mail, social-networking and peer-to-peer services are frustrating law enforcement wiretapping efforts, a lawyer for the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation told lawmakers Thursday,” reports PCWorld.

***snip***

Instead of forcing ISPs to adopt CALEA, the government will attempt to convince communication providers to build in so-called back doors allowing law enforcement access to their software. Caproni said she’s optimistic the U.S. government can find “incentives” for companies to “have intercept solutions engineered into their systems.”

“We are not looking for any new authority,” she said. “We are concerned we are losing ground in actually being able to gather the information we are authorized to have.”

Laura Murphy, director of the ACLU Washington Legislative Office, said in a statement that the FBI plan “will actually change the structure of the Internet, providing the government with a master key to our online communications.”

Caproni said the FBI is concerned about the internet being used for criminal activity. “That criminal may be a massive drug dealer, they may be an arms trafficker, they may be a child pornographer or a child molester,” she said. “We need the actual ability to conduct the wiretaps so we can keep the streets safe.
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150136045589002

[jpak]

17. Exactly why all firearm transfers need to be documened with background checks and permanent records

filed with the BATFE

oh yeah

Red Dawn was just a bad movie

yup

[eqfan592]

18. Red Dawn was a movie, Katrina wasn't. Nt

[jpak]

24. Yeah know, I was actually in Katrina

Not NOLA, but east of there - it was *hugh* storm that affected much of Gulf Coast.

I watched NOLA TeeVee on my battery powered set for weeks afterward - and they were reporting things that were not reported on local network TeeVee.

I saw the true face racism in 21st Century Bush/GOP Amerika unfold.

The reports of police vigilante shootings/executions of unarmed African American refugees trying to flee the city were true.

The network reports of Super Dome survivors "shooting at helicopters" were false.

Please post a link this miraculous unholy Katrina gun snatching

please do

yup

[friendly_iconoclast]

28. Here you are. I daresay this will be like confronting a creationist with C14 dating...

http://www.google.com/search?q=katrina+gun+confiscation&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=#q=katrina+gun+confiscation&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&oe=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbm=vid&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=737405c2e69d387f&biw=1280&bih=558

[aikoaiko]

31. It was immediately found to be unconstitutional.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/3367515.html

[gejohnston]

32. Yeah by racists cops

the very people you only want to have guns.

[gejohnston]

21. Planet of the Apes is just a movie too

I must admit, I like the 1970s versions better.

[jeepnstein]

39. Real Live Monkeys aren't to be trusted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x438319

[Tejas]

22. You go first. n/t

[guardian]

23. You like movies?

Try these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO0k9SHljCc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf8trl69kzo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tta1qhQZWSE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InkCQM8vXqQ

[PavePusher]

30. Start with your books.

If that works out O.K., we can talk about your firearms.

And yes, I specifically said your.

[krispos42]

62. Yeah, because causing the exact thing you're trying to stop is a wonderful idea

:eyes:

[-..__...]

20. If you have the time and skills...

take up home building from 80% receivers and parts kits.

No paper work involved... they don't even have to have a serial number.

Drawbacks...

There's not a hell of a lot of options regarding the number of firearms for which %80 receivers are available.

You can never sell or transfer them.

Parts kits (especially ones with barrels),are getting more expensive and harder to find.

[ileus]

26. ever bent up any of the AK receivers?

[-..__...]

43. Yep...

I attended a "build party" a few years back along with 4-5 other people.

Another online personality I knew hosted a 1911 build party, but I didn't make it to that one.

I was pretty amazed how simple and easy it was to assemble an AK pretty much from scratch with roughly $300.00 worth of tools, jigs, equipment, etc.

Some of the tools/jigs can even be manufactured at home.

[ileus]

25. A few days of gitmo treatment will get you to confess.

You'll need some guns to surrender to them, and a stash of unknowns not on site.

Whatever you do don't make any internet posts about unregistered guns....

[RSillsbee]

36. If it's time to bury them

It's time to dig them up

[jeepnstein]

38. Fail, right out of the gate.

You just publicly announced your intentions on a gun control forum. You do know there are people who frequent this board who would turn you in for the mere ego satisfaction it would give them, don't you?

[onehandle]

41. LOL!

You might as well tattoo 'I have guns' on your forehead.



Do you know how easy it is to locate someone through their Internet activity?

[guardian]

45. Do you know

* How many guns I have?
* The make and model?
* Where they are stored?

You must be pretty good to figure out all that from an IP address.

[onehandle]

47. Did I say I could?

But just in case, invest in tinfoil aplenty.

[guardian]

48. Aluminum foil

should be part of everyone's bug out bag.

Next time there is a hurricane Andrew or Katrina or Fukushima or Loma Prieta earthquake, people like me will have food, water, medical supplies, shelter, and the means to protect myself, a solar powered radio for news, and a deck of cards for entertainment. Others can take their chances in the Superdome, stranded on an overpass, or looking for some overcrowded rescue shelter waiting for a handout.

You can bet your ass I won't be sharing my 'tinfoil' then.

[Hoyt]

49. Some folks just ought not be allowed to obtain guns.

[ileus]

50. Lots aren't...

[oneshooter]

53. And you are among them? n/t Where is the photo, Hoyt?

[gravity556]

55. Wait...are you saying that

Hoyt is a *gasp* gun owner? Astonishing! Does he hunt or target shoot? What kind of gun do you have, Hoyt? Flintlock rifle, right?

[jeepnstein]

67. N/T

[PavePusher]

68. Whea's dat Tacky wabbit? n/t