11 wounded as gunfire erupts at Kent car show

[MyrnaLoy]

"Patrons and employees in the stores and restaurants locked the doors and crouched in backrooms to escape the gunfire." http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2015711094_kentshooting24m.html

[Blown330]

1. No commentary...

...nothing but blurb and a link? Unrec for pointless drive-by posting.

[MyrnaLoy]

2. is it

the truth that scares you? Do you normally hide and unreq the truth?

[Blown330]

3. What truth?

This was posted by the news channels hours ago. You apparently have little effort invested in it aside from just copying the link. Try to put more into this one than your usual rhetoric for a change.

[MyrnaLoy]

4. are you

suggesting people weren't wounded at a car show? That truth.

[Blown330]

6. Are you...

dancing in the blood of innocents again? Not debating what happened, you just don't have anything else to provide.

[MyrnaLoy]

9. using your logic then

wouldn't the evening news be also dancing in the blood of the victims? When you see a shooting story in the paper do you write an editorial accusing them of dancing? I think it's just the truth that really bothers you.

[east texas lib]

18. Did the guns just show up at the carshow and just start shooting all by themselves?

This "truth" of which you speak that seemingly assigns no responsibility at all to the people that actually did the shooting, people who evidently cannot tolerate even being looked at ("mugged" as they call it) by other people in a public place, and so must shoot someone to preserve their precious street cred, this truth that absolves the little darlings of all culpability, placing total blame on the inanimate object used to facilitate their mayhem. That truth?

[friendly_iconoclast]

29. Nah, undercover NRA operatives were selling them out of the trunk of a car.

Their program to sell guns to narcotraficantes has been getting a little too much publicity, so they've relocated to the

other border area for the time being.


When the mind-control chip secretly implanted in the guns activated, the impressionable youths attending with their fellow

social club members who bought them were simply unable to resist firing them.


Or so I've been told....

[east texas lib]

31. I knew it! Thanks for the confirmation!

Obviously we must ban social and hobby clubs. And mind control chips. And tinfoil. And female narcotics officers with large breasts (this last one is just a personal request to the powers that be).

[iverglas]

30. does this happen in your world?

I suppose it must, or it wouldn't occur to you to insinuate that it happens in someone else's.

Here's what the article linked to by the poster says, among other things:

He said he saw a single gunman firing from the front of the shopping center into the parking lot full of people.

This "truth" of which you speak that seemingly assigns no responsibility at all to the people that actually did the shooting ... this truth that absolves the little darlings of all culpability, placing total blame on the inanimate object used to facilitate their mayhem

When you say "seemingly", you are apparently saying that this is how it seems to you.

That's unfortunate. Having things seem that way to one must put one at a severe disadvantage in everyday life.


That truth?

No, mon cher. That doughnut.

It isn't a doughnut, I hear you cry??

Put it together now.

[east texas lib]

34. Nice beat poetry...

I'll bet you have a really cool looking beret, Yoko.

[gejohnston]

5. We have a few facts but not the truth,

the truth is the complete picture with all of the 4WH blanks completely filled in (who, what, where, why, and how)

[rl6214]

57. Just like 6paks posts.

[X_Digger]

7. And what policy position does this lead you to?

Was there a point that somehow disappeared?

Did you hit 'post message' too soon?

[jpak]

14. When you want to have fun - leave the stupid guns at home

yup

[X_Digger]

22. That's as close as you've come to a policy position.

So, are you advocating the repeal of CHL legislation?

Do you have information that the shooter was a CHL holder?

[SteveM]

52. Please inform the HyperPunks, not folks in this forum. nt

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[X_Digger]

10. Sounds like old school low riders v young tuffs.

A friend of mine is involved with the low rider scene here in TX. Some of the nicest, friendliest folks you'd ever want to meet. They'll talk your ear off about suspension, hydraulics, air bags, solenoids, paint, who does the best pinstriping, impala v fury, etc.. Most of them are over 30, with a 9 to 5 job and a family.

Then there are the kids. They stick some shiny rims on a crap car, go to pep boys and buy a boxload of chrome crap to throw on it, and then show up at club meets expecting to be the shit. They get pissed off when they're not fawned over. I've seen more than one fist fight started by young idiots.

[napi21]

11. That's sad. My hubby & I own a Strrerod, 1934 Plymouth sedan.

We were car club members for many years, and our two boys grew up eating, sleeping and knowing old cars. NEVER in all the years did I ever encounter anynasty or mean people. We were from Pgh, Pa. and used to go to a Car Club & Swap meet at the Butler County Fair Grounds every year and stay overnight. the Harley Biker Club used to attend too, and as much bad publicity as bikers get, we all got along GREAT! I'm sorry to hear that angry people have infiltrated this fun sport.

BTW, we're now 68 & 60 yo and still enjoy our Streetrod. We restored the car ourselves in 1972, and I was respected by many guys (me being a girl and all) for doing a lot of the mechanical work and I painted the car myself. Hubby didn't do paint!

[X_Digger]

12. Paint is the one black art I've never had the nerve to touch.

I'll have to dig up the pictures of my frame-off restoration of a '69 nova SS. Bought it as a pile of parts for $1200 my sophomore year in HS, finished it my senior year.

The classic car scene took a bit of a nose dive when the whole 'the fast and the furious' movie franchise started. You ended up with a lot of 'street racing' types. Ugh.

Luckily the lowriders in the metroplex have a pretty vibrant group. If it weren't so hot tonight, that's where I'd probably have been this evening.

[Katya Mullethov]

13. I think you're right

This is a watershed moment that will ultimately turn the tide of success enjoyed by the self defense movement .

[Tesha]

16. I suppose you're being sarcastic but eventually people in this country...

...*WILL* decide that enough is enough and that having every yahoo
and crazy have access to lethal weaponry may not have been the best
idea after all.

Tesha

[Upton]

17. Sure they will..

and someday eventually there will be no wars, no violence, and all people will live in peace and prosperity. :eyes: Imagining a perfect world is nice, but until that day comes to pass, I believe I'll stay prepared and continue to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights as I look to defend myself and my family..

Right now, your cause is headed it the wrong direction..but I guess you can dream..

[iverglas]

35. indeed ...

Right now, your cause is headed it the wrong direction

As long as the racist misogynist right wing maintains its grip on public opinion, the cause of firearms control is headed in the direction of failure.

Sadly, the right wing agenda is now on a firm upswing here in Canada -- "tough on crime", soft on guns ... go figure -- so we'll be expecting more of what you've got down there too.

Fortunately, we haven't seen the end of history, and nobody really expects progress to be unaccompanied by setbacks. Those who gloat when their nasty goals seem closer will just find it all the more bitter when they're consigned to the dustbin, I imagine.

Gloat away. Your delight at dismantling the social policies that the world has benefited from in recent decades really does not prove your worthiness or that of your agenda.

[friendly_iconoclast]

41. "so we'll be expecting more of what you've got down there too." A declining murder rate?

Cool!

[SteveM]

54. "misogynist" women-by-the-millions who own guns? Strange stuff there, Iverglas.

How you been doing lately? I was off for some 7 months while my computer was getting reamed.

[iverglas]

58. strange stuff indeed, and you're obviously drinking it

"misogynist" women-by-the-millions who own guns?

Where? Where?

Did someone say that people who own guns are misogynists???

What a moron. Show me where, and I'll tell them myself.

[X_Digger]

25. So, it's "any day now"-ism, is it?

Don't hold your breath.

[SteveM]

53. Problems with your statement...

"...enough is enough and that having every yahoo and crazy have access to lethal weaponry..."

Hey, nobody is advocating this. Do you know of anyone? List them, their web sites, organizations, inc.

Do you agree with me that what is "not... the best idea" is to let the HyperPunks who were mugging and looking for violence drift casually through this thread while focusing on some object to be banned? What should be done about da HyperPunk? Anything?

[iverglas]

59. presumed to intend the foreseeable consequences

"...enough is enough and that having every yahoo and crazy have access to lethal weaponry..."
Hey, nobody is advocating this. Do you know of anyone? List them, their web sites, organizations, inc.

If somebody advocates that this NOT be the case (which it is), then they had better not be supporting policies that allow it to happen.

Get it?

As long as somebody advocates policies that do sweet bugger all to keep firearms out of the hands of people who should not have them, that person has advocated that those people have access to firearms.

Simples.

[iverglas]

32. I love this lingo

I've been missing my lessons here.

the self defense movement

That will be writ on the leaves of history, along with other great utterances of the world's finest demagogues.

http://www.roangelo.net/logwitt/language-limit-emotion.html

The repeated utterance of undefined words

Similar to slogans are common words that demagogues frequently utter but never define: 'terrorism', 'hate', 'suspicious'. Others are 'democracy', 'security', 'freedom', 'liberal', 'socialism' (What is the public library system if not socialism. Is the public library an example of bad government? What is the state school system (public education), if not socialized education). This nonsense -- i.e. undefined language --- is often uncritically or intentionally repeated by the press.

... 'self defense' ...

[friendly_iconoclast]

37. Some prefer a PoMo wall of text, in order to impress the reader with the writers' erudition and wit.

Whatever works, I suppose...

[iverglas]

38. or, as Mark Twain famously said

A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is tying its shoelaces.


The words that demagogues live by.

[Katya Mullethov]

42. So it isn't about the right to self defense ?

It's all about the guns♪ , guns♪ , guns♫ . I'm cool with that .

[ileus]

15. More legal gun owners I bet.....

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[-..__...]

27. Too bad ICE and local police weren't on hand...

conducting immigration and outstanding warrant sweeps.

[east texas lib]

28. I don't think they like the feds too much up there in PC land...

So they get to deal with the consequences.

[iverglas]

60. fascinating

From the article:

Nine people — seven males and two females ranging from age 14 to 32 — were taken to Harborview Medical Center with injuries to arms, legs, feet and torso.

But it appears that this incident can be dismissed as just one of those "thug life" things that nobody needs to worry about.

No need to consider public policies that would make access to firearms more difficult for people like these ... teenaged kids attending public events are just the unfortunate collateral damage that must be accepted by people whose interests trump everything else ... whose interests in doing whatever they fucking well please because nobody is the boss of them trump the safety and lives of teenaged kids attending public events ...

But of course the guns used by the thugs in question were never legally owned by anyone at all, and there is nothing at all that could have been done to stop the transfer from a legal owner to the thugs at whatever point that happened. Nope, the guns dropped into their hands like lawn darts from the sky. The guns will always be with us. Move along now.

[Scuba]

20. Recced because of criticism by my fellow pro-gunners. Denial does not help.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

56. un-rec'd for pointless gruesome sensationalism

[JoeyT]

21. Enough is enough. Something must be done.

It's high time we banned car shows!

[spin]

23. Shooting may have been gang related ...

At least 10 people injured in shooting at Wash. car show
By KOMO Staff Published: Jul 23, 2011 at 5:39 PM PDT Last Updated: Jul 23, 2011 at 7:10 PM PDT

***snip***

Several suspects fled the scene in one or more vehicles, according to Kent police spokesman Sgt. Jarod Kasner. The exact number was not disclosed, nor was there a description of the vehicles.

Kasner said the drama began when a fight broke out among some of the people at the car show and several gunshots were fired. As the crowd dispersed, at least 10 people were hit by gunfire, Kasner said.

One witness told KOMO News that the fight started when one man bad-mouthed another car owner's paint job, but police have not confirmed that.

Kasner did say the shootings may have been gang-related, and that gang detectives have been called in for the investigation.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/126068713.html

[iverglas]

36. so?

What is the point of this perennial refrain?

What gang problem would there be if gangs did not have guns?

[HK91762mm]

39. So gangs would find other weaspons

Gangs would use knives -Bombs whatever --Make there own guns ??

If there were no gangs -Guns would be no problem - -Makes sense to me -!!

[iverglas]

43. glad it makes sense to you

Sad, actually, because it's sad when nonsense makes sense to someone ...

[hack89]

40. They will always have guns

unless we are a hell of a lot better at stopping gun smuggling then we are at drug smuggling.

I think the refrain has a lot to do with the somewhat misguided notion that penalizing law abiding citizens will have any impact on criminals. They break laws and they smuggle and sell contraband - they will continue break gun laws and they will smuggle and sell guns. Why don't we focus the attention of the criminal justice system on this small and easily identifiable segment of society before we decide to take on people that will never commit a crime in their lives?

[iverglas]

44. the poor will always be with us

and other mantras of the "I'm all right Jack" crowd.

We have smuggled guns in Canada.

And we all know where they come from, don't we?

If there were proper firearms control in the US, where would guns be smuggled from? Norway?


Why don't we focus the attention of the criminal justice system on this small and easily identifiable segment of society before we decide to take on people that will never commit a crime in their lives?

Take them on ... how?

By requiring that firearms be transferred only to people with licences and that firearms transfers be registered so people who "will never commit a crime in their lives" do not, whether intentionally or unintentionally, transfer firearms to ineligible persons? while of course significantly deterring straw purchases and other illicit transfers ...

By requring that they keep their firearms secured in order to reduce the thousands and thousands and thousands of firearms that are stolen and thus transferred to ineligible persons?

"Focus the attention of ..." ... why don't you say what you mean and mean what you say?

Interesting how the substitute effect only works in one situation in some people's minds.

Make it difficult for that small segment to acquire firearms, and they will ply their trade with the aid of knives and bombs.

But lock up the people in question, and no one will step into the breach to take over their extremely lucrative market share. Noooo. That doesn't happen.

[hack89]

45. Why don't we decriminalize drugs for starters then adequately fund urban schools

Don't you agree that people with jobs and a good education are much less likely to participate in violent crime? That's the way it is here in a America.

There will always be a percentage of the population that are violent by nature - they are easy to pick out by their long criminal records. Instead of busting simple drug users, lets end the war on drugs and focus the criminal justice system on violent offenders. Lets make gun use an aggravating factor that will add to a sentence. Lets imprison fewer people but be much more selective of those we do lock up.

There is absolutely no chance of Canadian style gun control in America so why don't we discuss things that might actually work?

[iverglas]

46. I give up

Why don't you start by stopping the sabre-rattling every time Canada discusses decriminalizing cannabis: threatening our economy by raising the spectre of border controls that would jeopardize our trade?

Why don't you elect governments that will do what you propose?

But hey, in the meantime, why don't you just do everything possible to make sure that the drug traffickers have every weapon they need at their disposal in order to prosecute their side of the drug war?


Lets make gun use an aggravating factor that will add to a sentence.

USAmericans are still so naive in so many ways.

This firm belief in the efficacy of punishment, as both individual and general deterrent, is one of their most charming traits, I swan. The Puritans would be proud.

Actually, it would be so much better, for you and the world, if you would get over this and deal with the real world. In a very few situations, the prospect of punishment is a deterrent to would-be offenders. (And in fact, with a registration scheme in place, "law-abiding gun owners" are precisely one of those classes: they are people on whom the prospect of punishment for an illicit firearms transfer actually would operate to deter "law-breaking gun owners" from breaking the law, because they are people with something to lose and because, after all, they are inherently "law-abiding".)

In most other cases, prevention is called for, because deterrence simply does not work. Surely decades of the war on drugs demonstrates that.

Stemming the flow of firearms into the hands of the drug warriors ... well, that just makes no sense at all, does it?



edited to fix typos

[hack89]

47. I don't believe in deterrence

We just need the tools so that we can lock up violent offenders for a long time when they are caught.

If we can't stem the flow of drugs why do you think we can stem the flow of guns? It is not like the drug trade needs that many guns to start with - they need a tiny fraction of all the guns presently in circulation. Even if you were to cut that flow, they already have enough guns to last them decades.

I live in a state that has decriminalized cannabis - they are opening a cannabis dispensary 2 miles from my house. America is gradually seeing the light on decriminalization. As for elections, I try my best - I suspect you would support every politician I vote for.

[gejohnston]

49. go figure

Stemming the flow of firearms into the hands of the drug warriors ... well, that just makes no sense at all, does it?

The best way to do that is to take away their money. Before the war on drugs, they mostly used tire chains and knives.

[Union Scribe]

48. Really? Gangs aren't a problem if they don't have guns?

Some of you seem to lack any sort of imagination. Or real-life experience with gangs. Tell you what: watch one of those locked-up prison documentaries. Tell me about how gangs aren't a problem without guns.

[iverglas]

61. what?

Who's talking about locked-up prisons?

I think I'm talking about society as a whole. Where kids are killed in gang crossfire. That sort of thing.

Are many kids killed in the crossfire by people throwing sharpened toothbrushes at each other where you live?

[spin]

50. If the shooting was gang related ...

that would mean that there is an excellent chance that the firearms involved were being carried illegally.

I favor increasing the penalty for those who are caught illegally carrying a firearm as all too often the punishment for such a crime in the United States is a slap on the wrist.

In some areas the penalty has been increased.

Governor Quinn Signs Legislation Targeting Illegal Firearm Possession by Gang Members
New Law to Honor Slain Chicago Police Officer
December 3, 2009

CHICAGO – December 3, 2009. Governor Pat Quinn today signed a bill into law that will require prison time for street gang members convicted of possessing a loaded gun in a public area. This new law strengthens the current law which rules that gang members in possession of a loaded gun can be sentenced to probation.

“Public safety and crime prevention are of paramount importance to the law-abiding people of Illinois,” said Governor Quinn. “This new law I’m signing puts gang members on notice: If they get caught carrying a loaded gun in public, they will go to prison.”

The law was drafted and introduced by Cook County State’s Attorney Anita Alvarez and is named in honor of Chicago Police Officer Alejandro “Alex” Valadez, who was shot and killed on June 1, 2009 when he was responding to a call of shots fired in Chicago’s Englewood community. Officer Valadez was struck down by shots fired from a passing vehicle occupied by three suspected gang members. One of the three men charged in his murder was on probation for aggravated unlawful use of a weapon at the time Officer Valadez was killed.emphasis added

“This new law will be an extremely important tool for police and prosecutors in the battle against gang and gun violence in our communities,” said State’s Attorney Alvarez. “It is our honor to name this bill in the memory of Officer Valadez, who made the ultimate sacrifice in his service to the citizens of Chicago.”
http://www.illinois.gov/PressReleases/ShowPressRelease.cfm?SubjectID=3&RecNum=8076

Mayor's New Gun Laws Target 'Gang Youth'

Months after announcing a quest to tighten up gun laws, Portland Mayor Sam Adams announced Friday that his first major target will be gang youth.

Anyone with gang connections found in illegal possession of a firearm will soon face “federalized” charges and heightened jail time if they are convicted – but a telephone hotline will be set up for anyone trying to get out of “gang life,” he said Friday.

***snip***

“Let me be very, very clear as mayor: if it is not legal for you to have a gun, if you have a gun illegally, we intend to find you, and we intend to take that gun out of your hands,” Adams said Friday. “We at the same time are going to offer you the opportunity to do that yourself, and that’s why this is a two-part approach.”

***snip***

“We’re going to open up the floodgates, if you will, with respect to federal prosecution of federal gun crime,” said U.S. Attorney Dwight Holton. “If you have a remote affiliation or association with a gang, and you have a federal gun, that is a gun for which you can be prosecuted federally, then you will be prosecuted federally — you will face more time in the federal system than you will in the criminal system.


http://www.theskanner.com/article/Mayors-New-Gun-Laws-Target-Gang-Youth

[Glassunion]

55. Would this then be considered a byproduct of the Carshow-Loophole?

[iverglas]

62. noooo!

If the shooting was gang related ...
that would mean that there is an excellent chance that the firearms involved were being carried illegally.

Ya think???

Were they manufactured illegally too?

If not ... they seem somehow to have made their way from a corporation or individual who was in legal possession of them to the hands of these individuals.

How did it happen?? Magic? Teleportation?


I favor increasing the penalty for those who are caught illegally carrying a firearm as all too often the punishment for such a crime in the United States is a slap on the wrist.

Well, I don't disagree, just on principle. From what I see on Law&Order, you'd have to use the gun you're illegally carrying to kill a cop before anybody batted an eye.

That would help deal with the individuals in question. No point in leaving them wandering the streets, no disagreement.

But I just don't get how many people don't get that there is very little general deterrent effect in these laws as against the people we're talking about.

If there were, they wouldn't be trafficking in drugs or doing all the other illegal stuff they do, in the first place -- offences for which there actually are potential severe penalties. Is someone already trafficking in cocaine really going to worry a lot about getting caught with a firearm??

And I don't get how it isn't obvious to so many people that you lock up one, and another one takes their place. Complete with guns.

These are people who are impervious to deterrence, punishment, and the whole justice system shebang. Either the risk they take of getting caught and punished is worth it, in their risk analysis, or they just aren't good at risk analysis. But either way, they aren't deterred by the prospect of punishment.

If someone wants to reduce the harm they cause, then you work on their ability to cause harm.

And the big thing that enables them to cause harm is their possession of firearms. The firearms enable them not just to shoot people, but to intimidate and thus facilitate their criminal enterprises.

Let them have guns -- and that is what current US firearms policies do -- and it really doesn't matter how many of them you lock up or for how long.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TPaine7]

33. Point? Are you trying to tell us you are getting rid of your gun(s)? n/t

[SteveM]

51. Uh, do you have a point or suggestion? thanks.