Suspect focused on buying specific weapons (AK-47, Glock, Mini-14, w/silencer, 30 round clips)

[jpak]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b5a1b3ce-b60b-11e0-8bed-00144feabdc0.html

The Nordic countries’ hunting traditions mean that there is a high rate of gun ownership in Norway, where locals – and tourists - often go out to the woods to hunt wild reindeer, moose, deer, hare and grouse.

About 439,000 Norwegians are recognised by the Norwegians Register of Hunters, or about one in every 10 citizens. However, most have licences for bolt-action rifles and shotguns, with a smattering of semi-automatic weapons, and ownership of heavier weapons and handguns is usually much more restrictive. Government pre-approval and registration is necessary for all firearms.
More

According to his manifesto, Anders Behring Breivik already owned a Benelli Nova pump-action shotgun, but unsuccessfully travelled to Prague in the Czech Republic in August 2010 to illegally purchase and smuggle back in hollowed out car seats an AK-47 automatic rifle, and a 9mm Glock pistol.

Returning to Oslo, he says he tried to purchase weapons through legal channels, and was eventually successful in being approved to buy a €1,400 Ruger Mini 14 mini-automatic rifle in October-November, partially thanks to his membership of the Oslo Pistol Club.

<more>

all available here in NRA Amerika 24/7/365

yup

[Abin Sur]

1. €1,400 for a Mini-14?

That's about $2000 American. It's a $700 rifle here in the States.

[gravity556]

2. Probably means a ruger AC556.

Looks like a min-14 but is select fire.

This guy was patient and obeyed all the rules, and still was planning on going apeshit. Had he not had guns, he would have used bombs like he used in his "distraction".

[Abin Sur]

4. I don't believe full auto weapons are available (legally) in Norway

That being the case, I doubt it was an AC556. I think it more likely that the reports that he used a full auto weapon were simply inaccurate.

[bellcrank]

3. So, in spite of serious controls on guns, he managed to get enough of them to kill 90 people.

So much for the effectiveness of draconian restrictions. What's your solution? Do you have any ideas...at all?

[jpak]

5. He smuggled the AK and the Glock - and Norwegian gun laws are not "draconian"

10% of the population has a gun

NRA fail

yup

[PavePusher]

6. No, he didn't.

"but unsuccessfully travelled to Prague in the Czech Republic in August 2010"

Reading fail, or lying again?

[Hangingon]

7. How is this an "NRA fail"?

What does the NRA have to do with Norwegian gun laws?

This is the stretch that flopped.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SteveM]

48. This is 6pak's attempt to smear pro-2A folks below the mod's radar...

by associating progressive DU members with the "NRA," "RW," "GOP," etc. He does it regularly. I don't think he really cares about this issue, but gots to have dem posting #s!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

69. !

:rofl:

6pak

[gravity556]

8. Wow, can't even be bothered to read your own article?

UNSUCCESSFULLY attempted to smuggle an AK.

All of his guns were purchased through legal channels in a country with the kind of gun control that make the US antis pants tight. And you still can't wait until the bodies are cold before you try and spin this into something supporting your bullshit pro-criminal safety cause.

[jpak]

24. Yes, the draconian EU gun laws worked - he failed to smuggle it

but the draconian Norwegian gun laws allowed him to get a Mini-14

NRA fail

yup

[bellcrank]

34. An hour ago you posted that he DID smuggle it.

Are you taking anything for that?

[SteveM]

49. He makes it up, moment-by-moment. nt

[Atypical Liberal]

40. He failed to even FIND them.

Yes, the draconian EU gun laws worked - he failed to smuggle it but the draconian Norwegian gun laws allowed him to get a Mini-14

He traveled to Belgium to try and buy firearms illegally on the black market. He failed to find any. I suspect this is because this guy had no past criminal record and just didn't know how to operate in the underworld to get what he wanted. He had no criminal contacts, and no experience in seeking out criminal elements. So I'm not surprised he was unable to find a fence for illegal firearms on his weekend trip to Belgium.

Instead, he went back home, where he had invested nearly 40 hours in required coursework and training, along with a couple of thousand Euros, to legally purchase his firearms.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

52. Could you please explain...

...what on earth the NRA has to do with something that occurred outside the United States?

I'd love to know how it was an NRA failure. Really. I've gotta see your reasoning...

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rl6214]

67. How is any of this related to NRA?

Dip$hit bull$hit shtick

[Abin Sur]

9. They're quite draconian by United States standards

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Norway

The qualification process for sporting is theoretically easier, but requires more time and practice. The applicant must enroll in a firearm safety course, lasting at least 9 hours. The course includes a written test, but is shorter than the hunting exam, as it only deals with firearm safety. Two thirds of the course is completed on the shooting range as practice. The passing of the test results in acceptance to the approved gun club, and a license for competition. However, while the hunters can obtain their firearm almost at once, sports shooters must prove their intentions to compete by actively training or competing in the gun club. This means regular attendance (at least 15 times) at gun club training over the course of six months. The applicant must use firearms owned by the club or borrowed at the range for this period. After six months, the applicant may apply for weapon ownership. The start license and a written recommendation from the gun club president are brought to the police station, and the competition class is filled out on the application. If approved, it will be returned to the applicant as with the hunter license.

This is far more restrictive than the process of obtaining a handgun in my state, Colorado, which consists of

A) Handing a private party money and
B) Walking away with the handgun

Even if I buy it from a dealer I just have to wait 30 minutes for a CBI background check and do a couple pages of paperwork.

[jpak]

13. No, they are better than US standards

yup

[friendly_iconoclast]

21. And they didn't prevent this. Another example of the "Commonwealth Fallacy"....

i.e. Encoding something into law is more important than actually achieving said laws' stated goals.


The most obvious example is the Brady Campaign's state-by-state ratings system. States are rated not by their rates of

violent crime and murder, but by how tough their gun laws are. So California is 'better' than Vermont, according to the

BC worldview...

[jpak]

28. and the Death Penalty, Concealed Carry and Castle Law didn't prevent the Texas Roller Rink Massacre

GOP/NRA Fail

yup

[friendly_iconoclast]

33. So much fail in the subject line alone. Who lives in a *skating rink*, for starters?

Not to mention-

1. Even the RW in Texas holds up the death penalty as vengeance, not a deterrent.

2. No evidence of CCW permit holders even being there, and permit holders aren't auxiliary cops in any event.



I rue the possibility that you might someday figure out that 'claiming something' =/= 'proving something'.

DU would be bereft of your "unique" contributions.

[Atypical Liberal]

42. And being defenseless didn't save the people on Utoya.

Pacifism fail

yup

[Abin Sur]

38. Whether or not their standards are better than those of the US is debatable.

What is not debatable is that Norwegian gun control laws are quite strict (draconian, if you will) by US standards.

[Atypical Liberal]

41. Better in what way?

No, they are better than US standards

Better in what way?

[SteveM]

50. Control/ban "standards" are like pre-season ratings: beer talk. nt

[gravity556]

64. So, jpak

What do you think of the criminal justice system over there? Slaughter 3 score and 15 innocents in cold blood, for no reason other than a difference in political ideology (anyone remember the Weathermen or SLA?) amd get a maximum sentence of 21 years. Not per count to run consectutively, but 21 years and out as a free man. At least in the states we have the sense to realize that there are some people and some acts that are completely irredeemable and should remove the vicious animal (sorry, kill unarmed kids like that, you lose your status as a person) from society for life in some states, and in other states, they're put down like the rabid and vicious animals that they are.

[gejohnston]

18. 30 percent depending on the count.

[Union Scribe]

44. Too busy being a ghoul to read, I guess.

[krispos42]

70. jpak FAIL

He bought the Glock legally, and couldn't get an illegal AK-47, so he bought a legal Ruger Mini-14 or Mini-30.

[oneshooter]

71. He also bought the suppressor legally. They are in common use throughout Europe.

[ileus]

11. My kids love shooting the Mini...more than they do the ARs.

[Hoyt]

12. Hey, those are the same guns and accessories that our own gunners covet and drool over.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gravity556]

15. Hoyt, I don't know a single serious shooter who drools over a mini-14.

They're notorious for poor accuracy and a tendency to double feed.

[Paladin]

25. Yeah, But They Look Really Cool, Which Seems To Be What Counts. (n/t)

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jpak]

30. And you can dress them up just like a Barbie - so cute

yup

:puke:

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beevul]

45. It would be so cool, if you actually had a clue.

[oneshooter]

56. Hey Hoyt, how about those "cowboy" pics. Still aint found them? We are all waiting for them! n/t

[benEzra]

66. But I thought you liked the "19th century wooden stock" aesthetic. (n/t)

[RamboLiberal]

53. Heck even the ahole terrorist was pissed he couldn't get an AR or AK

[SteveM]

51. Be sure to wash your sneaks. BTW, "drooling" promotes rust. nt

[benEzra]

65. Ummm, a mini-14 is one of your beloved OLD-FASHIONED guns, not a modern "black rifle"...

the mini is a warmed-over M1 Garand, scaled down to half the power and set up to use an old-fashioned rock-and-lock detachable magazine like the Garand-derivative M14/M1A instead of an en-bloc clip. The Garand design dates to the mid-to-late 1920's.

M1 Garand:


Mini-14 Ranch Rifle


And yes, the one in the second photo above is (was) mine, which I originally bought over twenty years ago (it was my first centerfire firearm). It was absolutely reliable, but 5.5 MOA wasn't up to my expectations, so I sold it a few years ago and bought something more modern...

[rl6214]

68. Prove it

Cite one example of anyone coveting and drooling over any weapon.

Moronic post as usual.

[RamboLiberal]

16. More

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b5a1b3ce-b60b-11e0-8bed-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz1T39Z7H5A


However, in his diary he complained that it was a “poor man’s AR-15”.

“I envy our European American brothers as the gun laws in Europe suck ass in comparison ... On the application form I stated: ‘hunting deer’. It would have been tempting to just write the truth; ‘executing category A and B cultural Marxists/multiculturalist traitors’ just to see their reaction,” he wrote, adding a smiley face icon.

Mr Breivik was also able to acquire a €800 silencer for the Ruger, and bought 30 magazine clips from a US supplier. In November, December and January he went through 15 training sessions at the Oslo Pistol Club, and by mid-January his application to purchase a Glock 16 was approved.

{i}I think they meant Glock 17. And semi-auto for the Mini 14.

[Flyboy_451]

17. 1 in 10 is a high rate of ownership?

If we were talking about any other legal product, would 10% be considered a high rate of ownership?

Regardless of the rate of ownership though, it appears that this man would have carried out his agenda with any means available. To say that this incident occurred because of easy access to firearms is a laughable statement. Strict controls did not prevent him from attaining the weapons that he sought, and even if they had, it is likely that he would have used some other means based on his use of home brew explosives. I think it is very likely that no legislation would have prevented this attack.

If anything it illustrates the futility of such gun control laws, when it comes to a person that is apparently mentally disturbed or a religious zealot. From what little details are available at this point, it appears that this was a well planned attack and not a "heat of the moment" type of action. These people will always find a way to try to carry out there plans.

I am not arguing that there should be no controls placed on firearms, or who can legally acquire and possess them. I do however think that it illustrates that if the ability to defend ones self and family is removed by such laws, that it can indeed prove fatal when faced with such a situation. Once again, I am not arguing for no restrictions, or that everyone be armed at all times, only that a balance must be struck. The public safety is not always served by disarming the people, just as all people being armed at all times is not a workable solution either. Many have argued that if one or more adults at the camp had access a defensive firearm, that the event may have been curtailed much sooner. I tend to agree with this thought. The strict laws did not prevent the assailant from carrying out his assault. These laws did, by all appearances at this point, prevent any adult from being able to bring suitable force to bear against him once the attack began.

This appears to be a case in which laws preventing use of firearms was more detrimental than beneficial. Violence likely to remain present in any society for the foreseeable future. Preventing self defense with suitable weapons will not change this fact. It will only create a society in which such attacks are easier to carry out, and will likely be more devastating than a society in which self defense is held as a virtue rather than a vice.

JW

[shadowrider]

19. Anti's are so quick to dance in the blood of the dead, I have YET to see one of them express sorrow

for the victims and their families. It simply promotes their agenda.

Very telling.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jpak]

31. You convinced me!

:rofl:

[Starboard Tack]

22. "Anti's are so quick to dance in the blood of the dead"

Where do you come up with this inflammatory crap? Meanwhile your gun buddies chew the fat discussing what model killing tool was used and which ones their kids love to shoot.
Very telling indeed!

[Blown330]

23. Where indeed...

...a simple glance would show that no less than half a dozen of the latest stories have been posted by those of the anti-gun persuasion and posted with little to no analytic commentary. So I guess you find the truth inflammatory.

[Starboard Tack]

39. What does the truth have to do with "Dancing in the blood of the dead"?

[Upton]

29. Where?

Well here are a few examples:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=439676&mesg_id=439676

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x439694

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=439352&mesg_id=439352

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x439103

And there are plenty more where those came from..

[beevul]

46. Yes, very telling indeed.

Say, who started this thread by the way:

"I wonder what kind of gun the RW Norway Terrorist used to kill all those kids?"



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x439001

One our "gun buddies" ya think?


Selective memory fail.

[SteveM]

54. This site is spammed by controller/banners every day...

with nothing more than MSM's version of the police blotter.

I see nothing wrong with discussing "which ones their kids love to shoot." Kids, when they learn the safe operation and use of firearms, are far less likely to conjure up fantasies of gangstas and Gothic killers, those images will appear puny and weak in comparison with valuable knowledge of firearms and their proper use. I don't know what you mean by "discussing what model killing tool was used..." In self-defense situations? In target-shooting? Hunting?

In the Land of the False Equivalency, you could say that "both sides" do it. But most of the incidents posted by pro-2A folks describe instances where citizens successfully used firearms for self-defense; such incidents are in the hundreds of thousand each year. On the other hand, the postings by anti-2A folks are merely police blotters, unexplained, with no comments, usually characterized by some smarmy, superior-sounding: "You know what I mean," or "You know the truth," or some other such crap. Sorry, but these latter folks never miss a chance to "cash in" on a school house slaughter.

[Starboard Tack]

57. I see nothing wrong with responsible training of kids in the safe use of a firearm

That is not the same as encouraging a "love" of guns, especially handguns which are designed specifically to kill humans.
Regarding "fantasies of gangstas and Gothic killers" I have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't know where you get your hundreds of thousands of successful self defense incidents from. I've seen a handful of legit cases cited in this forum alongside many anecdotal claims by toters.

[SteveM]

59. Who is encouraging "love" of guns, as you put it?

On fantasies: I believe it is safe to say that in many quarters the "gangsta" lifestyle, and the image of the schoolkid dressed in "gothic" as he goes on a spree is well established and fantasized. If you do not see that, then visit Rundberg Ln. in Austin, TX, or on any Interstate strip in a town of your choosing. The "Gothic" wear has been in the news over the last few years, if you've kept up with schoolyard spectaculars; stereotypical style, but these are what some folks fantasize.

On "hundreds of thousand of successful self-defense incidents:" Studies have been posted in this forum numerous times wherein surveys of gun owners (as well as police records) indicate that firearms are used hundreds of thousands of times EACH YEAR to thwart crime; in only a comparatively small number has anyone citizen actually fired the weapon. "Racking," verbal warnings, and display usually do the trick. The cases cited hear by Second Amendment advocates are a merely sample. Google it up.

"We cannot but pity the boy who has never fired a gun; he is no more humane, while his education has been sadly neglected. This was my answer with respect to those youths who were bent on this pursuit, trusting that they would soon outgrow it. No humane being, past the thoughtless age of boyhood, will wantonly murder any creature which holds its life by the same tenure that he does."
-- Henry David Thoreau, Walden.

[Starboard Tack]

61. Who is encouraging "love" of guns

You need to check who's in the sandbox with you. Do you agree with this "gun lover"?


Why I Love Guns
by Charles Carner

Guns. I love guns. Guns in the hands of private citizens are the best means for defense of home and family against criminals, and for restraining the tyrannical tendencies of government.

Guns save lives. All across the United States, from cities to suburbs to towns and rural hamlets, guns are used every day to prevent crime, protect property and deter predators. Guns allow women to walk alone without fear of assault. Guns protect policemen, and help them protect the citizens they watch over. Guns protect political leaders, prominent businessmen, celebrities, cabbies, bank guards and jewelry merchants. Every day, all day and all night, guns make it possible for people to perform risky but necessary work, and to remain alive and safe while so doing.

Guns ensure freedom. From Bunker Hill to the Battle of the Bulge, men with guns have fought oppression and liberated nations. Guns made the extraordinary philosophical vision of America’s founders possible in the real world. Without guns, Thomas Paine’s stirring call to action in Common Sense would have remained mere rhetoric – or led to futile rebellion. Guns freed the slaves in America’s Civil War. Guns stopped Hitler’s mad dream of world conquest, and Tojo’s planned Pacific empire. Guns liberated Africa from colonial chains; Africans served their masters at war – then applied the weapons and tactics they learned in distant battles to win their freedom at home. Conversely, when citizens are denied the right to own guns, oppression often follows. In the 20th century – the bloodiest in human history – genocide from Armenia to Cambodia was in each case preceded by stripping the citizens of their arms.

Guns are beautiful. From pinfire pistols to Kentucky rifles, from Samuel Colt’s "equalizer" to the H&K battle rifle, guns are gorgeous physical objects, pleasing to the mind and the senses. To hold a 1911 model .45 in one’s hand is to experience ergonomic delight; to field-strip an FN-FAL is to thrill at the elegance of its engineering and the profound simplicity of its design. From the venerable Browning Hi-Power to the cutting-edge titanium revolvers of this new millennium, from the storied Lee-Enfield to the sexy new Steyr Scout, guns give eloquent testimony to the genius of man.
http://keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=301

Or if you prefer something a little more salacious
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C917QJH9GNM
Kinda says it all

[SteveM]

63. Well, cast afar on the Internet; how 'bout here?

Actually, I agree with many of the comments expressed. But I don't really love guns. Nor am I promoting it.

That said, I loved the video, however coarse and over-the-top. But be careful: This might be considered "gun porno" by the mods.

Noted this: "...made famous from the film Jackie Brown." Strange how folks from all walks of life have their value systems molded by mass media and other forms of fiction.

[Paladin]

27. This Thread Is Proof Positive......

...that Gun Enthusiasts care a lot more about ascertaining the make and model of the firearms used in slaughters like this one than they do about the victims and survivors. Some things never change.....

[bellcrank]

35. Did you conveniently "miss" this one?....most certainly not a Gun Enthusiast

Some things never change...

[beevul]

47. I got yer proof right here.

"I wonder what kind of gun the RW Norway Terrorist used to kill all those kids?"


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x439001



So much fail.

[SteveM]

55. Another cheap shot, another lie. nt

[jpak]

32. Yeah - and when someone posts a blurb about some guy that shoots an alleged burglar

It's a yeehee blood two-step - in full cry

to advance their agenda

NRA fail

yup

[bellcrank]

36. I rejoice when someone shoots a gangbanger/burglar

and will continue to do so.

[ileus]

43. There's a difference between the good guys and criminals...it's not the gun that matters.

it's the use...

cop shoots a bank robber it's ok, cop shoots a protestor it's not. Same difference...unless you just assume the use of a gun by any non LEO to be criminal.

[gravity556]

62. Rather a large difference between the

senseless slaughter of unarmed innocents (count how many cheap shots and smilies jpak has littered this thread with-he's dancing in the blood of the innocent) and the use of deadly force to stop an attack on an innocent by a criminal intent on doing harm. Why would you mourn a thug who, in the process of assaulting an innocent, learned the hard way that not everyone who looks like easy prey is unable to defend themselves?

I now return you to whatever stupid comment jpak thinks passes for biting wit as he rejoices in the death of the innocent.

[sabo_tabby]

58. If I gave offense in the previous post to this effect, I'm sorry...

I only used the Tourette's line because I knew a guy who vocalized like that at the end of sentences - I'd heard it in speech but never seen it in print.

As I haven't been here a terribly long time, I'm unsure if there's an "inside" meaning to the "Yup" at the end of your posts.

I ask because I don't want to inadvertently give offense by putting it inappropriately at the end of my posts.

Thanks!