Norway shooter: Ammo was from U.S.

[cal04]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60154.html

The Norwegian madman who killed dozens at a kids summer camp claims he legally bought high-capacity ammunition clips by mail from the United States, prompting Capitol Hill’s leading gun control advocate to say on Thursday that America should be ashamed such purchases aren’t against the law.

Anders Behring Breivik wrote in a 1,500-page manifesto that he bought 10 30-round ammunition clips for his .223 caliber rifle from an unnamed small U.S. supplier, which then in turn acquired the clips from other suppliers. Norway forbids the sale of magazine clips for hunting rifles that hold more than three bullets, according to Norwegian newspaper Aftenposten.

Breivik wrote in his manifesto that while he could have purchased the high-capacity magazines in Sweden, they would have been significantly more expensive than ordering them from a U.S. supplier. He wrote that he spent $550 for the 10 clips. He also described legally buying four 30-round clips for a Glock handgun in Norway.

The Norwegian press has written extensively about how Breivik legally acquired his weapons and ammunition, but the mail-order purchase of his ammo from the United States has received little attention in the English-language press.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. Of course. Where else would it be from? nt

[Enrique]

4. rhetorical question, probably, but...

but Russia also sells a lot of guns around the world.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

6. Yeah well. We have gun-promoting lobbies, gun-promoting right wing, and a gun-loving

nation that still thinks it's in the Old West.

[TheWraith]

30. Your elevation of the US firearms industry to mythological status doesn't reflect reality.

Starting with the fact that the entire US firearms industry's total revenue is less than that of Netflix. (Before Netflix hiked it's prices.) Firearms are popular in the US because firearms are popular in the US, not because of some evil corporate conspiracy.

[PavePusher]

92. Your assumptions about the "Old West"....

are historically inaccurate.

[SteveM]

136. Doesn't matter. When corrected controller/banners just keep pumpin' gas....

for the right-wing they claim to despise.

[SteveM]

135. We also have a right-wing promoting gun-control contingent right here. nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

140. They have yet to figure out that Ian Paisley just might not be a good role model n/t

[Codeine]

10. Well, according to the article it could have been Sweden

had he been willing to lay out a bit more cash.

[Euromutt]

104. Finland, Russia, Germany, Belgium, the former Czechoslovakia, the former Yugoslavia...

What, you want an exhaustive list of countries that manufacture and export firearms, firearms accessories and ammunition?

Oh sure, maybe some of them won't sell weapons and magazines to private buyers who then go on to commit mass shootings like this one, but those particular countries will quite happily sell arms to various repressive governments, who use them to slaughter large numbers of their discontented citizens.

[iverglas]

125. I wonder what the point is?

Other countries traffic in firearms in ways that are contrary to all principles of international law and of human decency, so it's okay for corporations in the US to sell things to people in other countries that it is illegal for them to possess?

[gejohnston]

132. It was legal for him to posses

Just that it would was cheaper for him than driving to Sweden or buying one locally. Assuming of course, the article is accurate.

[iverglas]

134. do you have a source?

cheaper for him than driving to Sweden or buying one locally

Does this mean he would have been in legal possession of it in Norway?

The translated version of the article says:

"In Norway it is only allowed to use the weapon to hunt with three shots in magazine, and a bullet in the chamber."

Perhaps it's legal to use it with a 30-cartridge clip as long as there are only four in place at any time. I dunno. Do you?


The parallels are just eerie here:

In the so-called manifesto, he writes that the legal weapon allows him to work legally on a shooting range.

In mid-January, police also searched Breivik for permission to acquire a Glock17 pistol, according to the so-called manifesto. He joined the Oslo Gun Club to be allowed to buy the weapon, which confirms that Breivik has been a member of the club in two periods.

(I assume "searched" refers to doing some sort of background investigation.)

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/story.html?id=51a018cb-c2b0-47e5-98b0-63f5f7a865ab

Sometime that year, Kimveer {Gill} took the Canadian Restricted Firearms Safety Course then, to get his licence for restricted and non-restricted guns, he filled out a four-page application and both parents signed as references.

He bought a Glock .45-calibre handgun, a 12-gauge shotgun and a Beretta CX4 Storm rifle, the gun he used at Dawson, probably because it can fire multiple shots - 10 rounds - without manual reloading. Then he joined the Club de Tir Ville St. Pierre, a private indoor range in a western suburb of Montreal.

[gejohnston]

152. Prices vary for different reasons

IIRC, he said as much in his manifesto. That is most likely a hunting regulation, shooting range is different. Some of our states have similar ones, the federal law for water fowel. is five in the shotgun. If it means rounds in magazine or magazine size for hunting there, I have no idea. If the magazines are not legal in Norway, their customs screwed up.

I agree there is a parallel. Did Gill try the black market first like the other guy, but failed only because he did not know who to see? That is the only reason Breivik jumped through the hoops.
On a side note, I realize that many police depts and militaries use Glocks, but why do the high profile nut cases all seem to have Glocks? Why not a CZ or Norinco or something?

I don't hunt in Florida, so I have not checked up on the rules, but Wyoming is more concerned about lethality of the round (can it drop a deer instantly and inhumanely.) Neither rifle would be allowed. The other thing is if it is full auto (not allowed in any game field or forest, which like Alaska and maybe Yukon, means anywhere out of city limits)

[ZombieHorde]

2. That is really interesting. nt

[Enrique]

3. good for Politico for reporting this, but...

"madman" is a totally inappropriate word to use in a news article. Not that I would expect Politico to have any guidelines about anything.

[kctim]

5. What ammo? From who?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

7. The article is clear. What's there to not understand?

[kctim]

9. The Politico story only mentions magazines and clips, not ammo

I cannot click on the links Politico provides in the story, so I am curious about what ammo was from the US and who it came from.

[metalbot]

14. The article's title and his post's title are both incorrect

He bought 30-round magazines from a supplier in the US. Ammo exportation in the US is heavily regulated. It's possible that he could have used ammunition that was manufactured in the US, but extraordinarily unlikely that he bought it directly from a US supplier.

[SteveM]

137. Please re-read and point out references to ammo purchased.

[Codeine]

12. The article mentions no ammo.

Doesn't mean he didn't get it here, but you're correct in that it only discusses magazines, which it refers to as clips.

[kctim]

16. How is that possible?

With the article being so clear and easy to understand.

[gratuitous]

8. Responsible gun owner, that Mr. Breivik

Hunted around for the best deal on high-capacity magazines, and found that the United States offered the most bang for the buck (in a manner of speaking). Who says all the good jobs have been exported overseas? Weapons supplier to the world, baby! U!S!A! U!S!A!

[Dappleganger]

11. Clips are not ammo.

High-capacity clips must be filled with bullets in order to be shot. He used hollow points from what has been described.

And he bought 4 30-round clips for a Glock handgun in Norway--so that is legal in his country?

[Codeine]

13. Clips are also not clips, really.

These are more correctly magazines.

[nomb]

15. Norway sells Silencers w/o permit, over the counter, to anyone. Diff place, diff rules

[gejohnston]

82. so does

Finland, France, and New Zealand. There are some hunting areas in Finland where they are required. Some French ranges require them as well.

[PavePusher]

93. As it should be in the U.S.

Suppressors (NOT "silencers", they do not eliminate the sound of a shot, merely reduce it), are a safety device for protecting hearing. Hell, they should be supplied with the firearms.

[cal04]

17. McCarthy, NY: Norway Terrorist Used Lax U.S. Gun Laws

To Help Get Armed for Massacre

Anders Behring Breivik’s Manifesto Describes Buying

High-Capacity Magazines from U.S. for Purpose of Mass Murder

http://carolynmccarthy.house.gov/index.cfm?sectionid=155§iontree=189,155&itemid=1906

[gejohnston]

52. right,

and civilians can buy "heat seeking ammo", (confused with incendiary or tracers?, her words, not mine. Either way, not legal), you can shoot airliners down with a rifle, and barrel shrouds should be banned but doesn't know what they are. Before anyone starts "you are bashing a fellow progressive" let me point out she was a ran as a Dem only because she lost the GOP primary, remained a registered Republican elected as a Dem. She also voted for the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%80%93Leach%E2%80%93Bliley_Act

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNsCM2WYu7U

[Hoopla Phil]

120. Full of misinformation. The magazines could have been bought there. It would just have been more

expensive. VERY bad reporting to say that hunting regs (very similar to those in the U.S.) are the same as laws on the possession of. . . And the sad thing is, people are buying into that disinformation.

[SteveM]

138. From "...it's that thing that goes up...?" My, what a source. nt

[gejohnston]

155. My question to McCarthy

Her point is that US gun laws are partly responsible for this tragedy. The logical extension of that is:

I have a 1980s vintage Mauser Hsc .380 pistol. I bought a couple of spare magazines and downloaded the owners manual from a Canadian supplier. The ammo I used at the range were both US and Serbian manufacture. If I did a similar crime, are the gun laws of Germany, Canada, and Serbia also responsible?

[deaniac21]

18. No such thing as magazine clip. It's either a clip or it's a magazine.

CLIP

MAGAZINE

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

20. He could have purchased the same magazines in Sweden.

He bought the handgun magazines in Norway. This one can't be laid at the feet of our Constitution.

[TheWraith]

32. Well, that's wonderful hyperbole, but it's not true.

The US doesn't even account for a plurality of the firearms available internationally, and we have very strict import and export restrictions.

[PuffedMica]

41. So how many legal gun owners who vote Democrat did you just call a 'goon'

[pipoman]

67. Many, in these parts, take exception to the use

of the word "Democrat" in this context. This context is a mantra of Rush Limpballs. (just fyi)

So how many legal gun owners who vote Democrat did you just call a 'goon'

[TheWraith]

75. No, you're thinking of "Democrat Party." "Vote Democrat" is grammarically correct.

It's equally valid as "Vote Democratic."

[pipoman]

110. I don't disagree that it is

grammatically correct(my avatar is a 1967 party pin which uses it in this same context). I do disagree that it isn't frowned upon around here, and that the poster won't be called out often if he/she continues to use this word in this context.

[gejohnston]

74. let me rephrase that for you

So how many legal gun owners who vote Democratic did you just call a 'goon'?

I am one.

[SteveM]

139. In a culture war? Hell, start with millions. nt

[gejohnston]

46. bullshit

the pot and coke heads that give money to drug gangs are.

[RamboLiberal]

21. Are the magazines illegal in Norway?

Majority of U.S. retailers will not ship magazines to states where they are illegal to own. This is from a site that specializes in Glocks. I would hope they would check if legal in country being shipped to.

Note: This product cannot be purchased if you live in one of the following state(s): California ,Hawaii ,New Jersey ,New York

There would have to be a customs slip attached to any international shipment. Isn't it up to Norway to determine if shipments coming in to their country is legal?

But I'm sure if he was determined he'd find a way. But then he wasn't able to get an AK-47 he wanted to smuggle in.

I doubt the magazines made a difference in this case. He had 90 minutes to stalk and shoot unarmed civilians with no means of escape except to hide, play dead or try to swim to safety.

[marions ghost]

22. Why would anyone need magazines

in Norway or America, in any state.

They're only for killing large numbers of people, right?

You don't think they helped him? :wtf:

[RamboLiberal]

23. Do you know how fast a reload can be done with practice?

Damn fast!

Cho didn't need high caps at Virginia Tech. Luby's killer didn't need high caps. This guy would've probably killed just as many. He just would have had to carry more magazines. And I understand this killer had ammo left over to spare.

BTW, Glock is an Austrian company. They design the capacity of the magazines for their guns.

[marions ghost]

25. OK thanks for the info

So why does anyone need these (Glock) magazines then, if they can kill just as many people w/out them?

[RamboLiberal]

26. Some use for sport shooting or plinking

And yes there are the killers like this jerk & Loughner who want them. I will admit that.

But I don't want to see banned the magazine capacity the gun is built for like 13, 15, 17 for handguns, etc.

Do we ban high horsepower crazy ass cars or bikes cause some fool drives down the highway at 100+ and kills a family? So do we put a governor on every vehicle limiting it to 65 cause of a couple of madmen?

How many high cap mags are out there just being used safely? Oh something like 99.999999999%

[marions ghost]

28. plinking

you mean honing your assault weapon skills like Brievik? I'm sure he did a lot of plinking. "Used safely" until such time as they kill. Too easy to get. How many killers does it take to prove it? It will be interesting to see what Norway does after this. Unlike America they can't afford to lose people
this way. Life is not so cheap there.

I don't see any logical comparison between cars and guns.

[TheWraith]

31. He didn't use an "assault weapon."

Which is, by the way, a made-up term simply to describe any gun which is scary looking to someone, like end-of-life counseling becoming "death panels."

What he DID use was a Mini-14, which is one of the very, very few weapons which are approved of in Norway for hunting purposes.

[Missy Vixen]

33. Does it matter?

His victims are still dead. A country is brokenhearted as a result.

If his ammo came from the USA, it's time to tighten the export laws.

[TheWraith]

34. His ammo apparently didn't come from the US, and we have very tight export laws.

The OP title is incorrect. The article refers to him getting magazines from the US, not bullets.

In any event, regardless of where the bullets came from, I doubt the victims would be less dead if he had used local bullets versus international, and I don't think any of their ghosts will be particularly reassured that he went about getting his weapons legally through Norway's extremely strict gun laws. The best lesson to take from this is a more accurate picture of right-wing politics and their end-point.

[Euromutt]

106. Evidently it matters to marions ghost

He/she/it seems to think the victims are more dead because a so-called "assault weapon" was used, even though the weapon involved wasn't even a so-called "assault weapon."

[SteveM]

142. Please re-read the OP. There is no mention of ammunition...

We can all feel grief over this without going on a counter-productive moral crusade.

Do you really think "tightening" export laws would have stopped him? Clearly "waiting" or "cooling off" periods did not.

[marions ghost]

35. He used a typical hunting rifle?

What kind of hunting is this for?

What would we do without you gun persons to keep us up on all this? We just might have erroneous ideas about the semantics of assault weapons.

[TheWraith]

39. This caliber is usually used for small to medium animals, pest control stuff.

In the US, that's prairie dogs, woodchucks, coyotes, and similar. You can hunt larger things like deer with it, but it's considered too low-powered to be humane.

Using accurate and non-panic-mongering language is never "semantics."

[RSillsbee]

56. I own the exact rifle

It's good for varmints ( prarie dogs & Coyotes) and Zombies.

It's also the exact same gun the Korean Grocers used to defend their businesses during the LA riots

[tortoise1956]

71. HEY! I'M CALLING YOU OUT!

There's no way this is a good zombie gun - you need a much more powerful assault weapon like one of those Uzi-AR-Mac 16 semi automatic man-killing machine guns.

you are obviously a psychopathic pre-murderer trying to cover your desire to walk into a Young Republicans meeting, and send them all to Falwell, by destroying poor innocent zombies. Shame on you!

In case you didn't realize it:

:sarcasm:

[TheWraith]

76. I'm not sure why you would use any kind of rifle or sub-machine gun on zombies.

A rifle's muzzle energy is wasted at short range. You're better off with a bigger bore, moving slower, i.e. shotgun.

[tortoise1956]

77. Using "Zombieland" as the supreme authority,

I am forced to agree with your scholarly remark. A shotgun was shown to be the optimum short-range choice in that documentary.

I bow to your superior intellect!

[TheWraith]

80. Good. Now don't forget your cardio.

:rofl:

[krispos42]

89. Ah, but those were not "walking dead" zombies, those were "infected-human" zombies

Alive, but irrational due to disease. They had vital organs to damage, same as a regular person.


When you need head shots to take out the walking dead, accuracy is a must. Thus, a rifle. A Mini-14 with a forward-mounted 4x scope would probably do quite nicely. :-)

[Hoopla Phil]

122. Zombieland was a spoof on real zombie documentaries like The Walking Dead.

Please stop the misinformation.

On edit: While I have not seen it in use I would suggest that a suppressed Ruger Mk II would be the ultimate REAL zombie killer.

[RSillsbee]

84. Would you prefer I use my M1A? NT

[tortoise1956]

100. MUCH better choice!

you need to be sure that those zombies stay dead - again...

[RSillsbee]

101. In that case I need a flame thrower

IDK about where you're at but around here .308 are a little pricey

[tortoise1956]

103. I don't understand

Can't you swing a deal with the online ammunition suppliers the OP mentioned? I thought they would sell to anybody!

And yes, pretty much everything here in Las Vegas is pricey. One of the reasons I started to reload .38 special rounds for my GP100 - until the stepson, his GF, and my 2 year-old granddaughter came to live with us. Then all the supplies were secured so that she wouldn't accidentally get hurt.

[ileus]

117. GP100 congrats on another fine ruger firearm...

[PavePusher]

95. Yes, you do.

Ignorance can, however, be cured.

If you want to....

[SteveM]

143. This rifle is often called a "ranch rifle," and is frequently used for varmint hunting...

where ranchers have semi-auto capacity to shoot at predating coyotes.

[Hoyt]

43. Actually, "assault weapons" are made and marketed to appeal to gunners' baser instincts.

Go into any gun store and watch perspective purchasers drool all over the dang things.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoyt]

48. Simply wanted to point out that you are wrong as to what an "assault weapon" is.

You stated an "assault weapon" is a "made-up term simply to describe any gun which is scary looking to someone."

I simply pointed out that there wouldn't be any of the dang things if you guys weren't attracted to guns that look scary to someone and have a certain perverted appeal to the potential buyer.

[oneshooter]

57. The Ruger "Mini-14" was never listed as a "assault rifle" in the 94 ban. n/t

[Hoyt]

64. Never said it was. I was responding to poster's description of an "assault weapon."

Again, the only reason we have anything like an "assaultirized" Mini-14, is gun lovers wanted something "sexier," more menacing, and capable of killing lots of people relatively quickly and efficiently.

Manufacturers rushed to fill the arguably perverted wants/needs of this market -- the gun culture.

And because gunners have those perverted wants/needs, it's my personal opinion (for whatever that's worth) that indicates there are a lot of unsafe/stable folks carrying guns.

I'd rather avoid high crime areas than worry about the dude next to me in a restaurant or on a bus that has a gun bulge under his stomach and around his ankle. I ain't looking the other places they try to hide/tuck them to feel safe and warm.

[friendly_iconoclast]

73. And Bill Bennett explains our economic problems by using Amy Winehouse's Grammy as an example....

...of why the country is in trouble.

You two deserve equal consideration and respect.

[RSillsbee]

88. The mini 14 shown upthread

fires the same round at the same rate of fire as an AR15


Again, the only reason we have anything like an "assaultirized" Mini-14, is gun lovers wanted something "sexier," more menacing, and capable of killing lots of people relatively quickly and efficiently.

So if the looks have nothing to do w/ the function of the firearm why do you care what they look like?

it's my personal opinion (for whatever that's worth)

If you want to know what your opinion is worth why not go read the coments from your last article on HuffPo?

I'm sure you'll get some idea

[Euromutt]

107. Funny that Ruger markets the Mini-14 as a "ranch rifle," then

It's not marketed as being "capable of killing lots of people relatively quickly and efficiently," but as a rifle for keeping in the pickup truck or on the tractor to knock off the occasional gopher, coyote, etc. that presents itself. It's also fairly notorious--among people who have some inkling what they're talking about--for not being particularly accurate over 100 meters.

As for what your personal opinion is worth, it's consistently been worth less than what I paid to read it.

[ileus]

118. The inaccurate minis (I have a 2004) are the pencil barreled ones. New one's are pretty accurate.

[SteveM]

145. Sir, there is a lot of hatred in your soul. And "compassion" can't hide it.

[Hoyt]

157. And what do you call walking down a city street with a gun or two?

[TheWraith]

66. Some people's irrational fear of inanimate objects does not redefine language.

The fact that you find a gun which is black ten times more evil looking than one which is brown has no more validity than the people who are uncomfortable seeing sexuality on TV, or any other bias not based in fact. No one is obligated to play to your irrational beliefs about the world.

[Hoyt]

85. Fact that you feel you need to have a gun or two tucked away on your person in public is irrational.

[RSillsbee]

91. Irrationality

Fact that you feel you need to have a gun or two tucked away on your person in public is irrational.

Last night in Colorado Springs one man ( an armed criminal) pulled 2 men out of a car while car jacking it. He shot them both and took a third man hostage. I don't think carrying a gun on my person is all that irrational.

[PavePusher]

97. Got pictures?

If not, go wank elsewhere.

[ileus]

119. to you maybe...my children don't even find is odd however.com

[TheWraith]

123. Your opinions about why people carry are amazingly inaccurate.

Not to mention, you're talking to someone who doesn't even own a pistol.

[DonP]

68. Boy, for somebody that has no idea what he's talking about, you sound - ignorant

Based on your comments and previous posts about how people behave, coupled with several lies you have been caught in, it's obvious you have never been in a gun store. But please keep sharing your "knowledge" with the group.

[Blown330]

70. In order to point out someone being wrong...

...you actually have to know what it is you are talking about first. You are grossly misinformed on the subject so it is impossible for you to correct anyone. The term "assault weapon" was coined by other such ignorant entities and is as insubstantiated as your assertions about CCW's.

[rl6214]

54. Ah the "baser intincts" bullshit

That wood stocked hunting rifle really appeals to the gunners "baser instinct" to drool all over.

Still waiting for some sort of proof of this "baser instinct" or any photos of anyone "drooling over the dang things"

[oneshooter]

58. AND the photo of the "Cowboy with two guns hanging out". n/t

[Katya Mullethov]

65. Do not forget the ever elusive Cowboy with two guns crying .

A prancing cowboy with two guns guns crying would be a once in a lifetime event I hope to share with my son someday .

[Euromutt]

108. And the picture of the cowboy and three guns playing cards

And I feel a strange urge to commission a painting on black velvet of Elvis wielding two 1911s...

[PavePusher]

98. TACKY!!1!11! n/t

[krispos42]

90. All consumer products have a vested interest in eye appeal.

Why should guns be any different?

[PavePusher]

96. So, what is YOUR personal penile substitute? n/t

[Euromutt]

109. His head, I suspect n/t

[Tuesday Afternoon]

115. !

:rofl:

[SteveM]

144. There's ol' Hoyt, drooling all over. nt

[Marengo]

37. Actually, it's your association fallacy that lacks logic. N/T

[RamboLiberal]

38. Ban Fertilizer

He used that as well for his bomb. McVeigh killed more with his fertilizer bomb.

Anti-gunners overreact to these incidents which with the number of guns Americans and Norweigans own are actually damn few like the Bushies and Repukes did to 9-11.

You run around with your hair on fire.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SteveM]

146. What? He got that fertilizer from the U.S.A.? "U! S! A!, U! S! A!"

[tortoise1956]

69. "Honing your assault weapons skills"

Where did you come up with that one? In case you didn't know, practice is the only way to become good at anything. I shoot once in a while to see how good I am. I used to practice my archery skills until it became a chore to draw the bow. I also practice golf, and bowling, and Spanish. Why do I do this? Not to "hone my assault weapons skills", or to become a more proficient killer, but because I want to excel at whatever I do. I don't hunt, or kill living things. I have, however, sent countless paper targets to their grave...Oh, the HUMANITY!!!

As a side note, almost all gun owners are innocent of murder or assault with a deadly weapon. Of those who have committed these crimes, it wasn't the gun that made them do it, but their own psychological problems. don't blame the tool for the misdeeds of the user.

Final note: the Norwegian police are saying that he planned this over a ten-year period. There's no way to stop an organized psychopath like this lunatic, other than creating a police state that monitors your every move. If that's what you want, I guess you'll spend the rest of your life being bitterly disappointed.

[Hoyt]

83. "Honing assault weapon skills" is an apt description of what many gunners do.

The fact they don't recognize it is reason enough to be concerned.

[tortoise1956]

87. Based on what?

By the standard you set, golfers are practicing their "head-bashing" skills, drivers are practicing their "pedestrian-killing" skills, and bowlers are practicing their "grenade-tossing" skills (OK, the last one was a stretch - even for me...) How about defining what the term means? Right now you are making an ambiguous assertion using an unstated definition. Fill me in, and I'll be happy to debate the topic.

A couple of questions: It appears from this and other posts of yours that you support keeping guns in the house for self-defense, but that they should never leave the house, not even for practice. Is this accurate? If not, would you please explain what your stance is on gun ownership?

[Hoyt]

121. Na, you can take your guns for "practice." But honing your skills to kill ain't really practice.

[PavePusher]

99. Yeah, we know what you're "honing"....

And it sure ain't yer intellect...

[Hoyt]

114. I must be off "ignore." Ha.

[SteveM]

147. Now "gunners" don't even "recognize it?" Cliff Notes Psych 101.

[Hoyt]

113. Sorry, my friend, I don't want to practice to become good at killing people.

[PavePusher]

116. Bookmarked, for the next time you wail about insufficient training.

"Two-faced" doesn't even begin to cover this....

[PavePusher]

94. No, target practice for fun, skill and safety.

But hey, go with disingenuous and accusatory bigotry, demonisation and insinuation, if that's what works for you.

[pipoman]

111. You don't see it because it is inconvenient..

I don't see any logical comparison between cars and guns.

There are many things which kill as many or more people as guns, but which are tolerated for their practical and recreational uses. Yes, cars with excessive horsepower, 250 mph motorcycles, ATVs, speed boats, snow skis, swimming pools, etc. are all in this classification.

How many killers does it take to prove it?

Stated another way, 'how many anecdotes does it take to prove it?', How about when the actual misuse exceeds a fraction of a percent.

[sylveste]

27. for the same reason

people buy one large coffee instead of two smalls.

[ZombieHorde]

47. Ha! Good one. nt

[gejohnston]

102. because they own a Glock pistol?

You mean the long ones. Search me.

[iverglas]

126. and yet he went to lengths to obain the high-capacity ones

Mass murderers just aren't too bright; think of all the time and effort they could save if they listened to some around here.

I find it interesting that would-be mass murders take along both semi-auto rifles and handguns. Kimveer Gill (the Dawson College shootings in Montreal; Beretta CX4 Storm and Glock pistol) did exactly that. Breivik did exactly that. Perhaps the handgun is meant for the subsequent suicide. (Marc Lépine -- the Montreal Polytechnique massacre -- used only a Ruger Mini-14, coincidentally, on both his victims and himself.)

My assumption has always been that the handgun was for "covering" when the rifle magazine was being changed.

In any event, while the refrain of how rare long arm homicides are in the US will undoubtedly continue to be sung for many years, the fact is plain that semi-automatic rifles with high-capactiy magazines are the weapon of choice for a large proportion of mass murderers.

I believe they were also the subject of the "assault weapons ban" in the US before a Republican congress allowed that ban to sunset.

[friendly_iconoclast]

130. So, can we put you in the "Prefers spree killers be forced to reload" column?

I've noted more than once that Patrick Sherill (the original 'postal' killer) and Seung-Hui Cho (Virginia Tech) used

"McCarthy-friendly" magazines during their murderous rampages, and their victims were just as dead as the victims of

those you cited.



Massachusetts tried something similar with beer kegs, and succeeded only in converting "underage keg parties" into

"underage cases of beer parties"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=198799#199030


But hey, they Took A Stand and Made A Statement!

[iverglas]

131. you can put whatever you like wherever you like

Would you like suggestions?

[friendly_iconoclast]

133. Aww, that 'empirical evidence' thing has harshed your mellow.

Might I suggest a nice camomile infusion and some deep, calming breaths?

[Union Scribe]

29. That evil fucker leisurely shot people for a long, long time.

He had all the time he wanted to reload as many times as he wanted. Magazine capacity was not even slightly relevant in this case.

[krispos42]

86. Several reasons:

1. "It's better to have and not need, than need and not have"
   
2. People forced to shoot in a crisis situation usually miss. A lot. Regardless of the power of the bullet, it has to hit to be effective.
   
3. Hollywood overplays the instant lethality and/or incapacitation of bullets. Even a fatal hit might not become fatal for several dozens of seconds, or even several minutes. During that time the person you shot can still be a lethal threat.

Besides, using stripper clips to re-load magazines is fast and easy. Observe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdawMHeQKhQ

That one is an AR-15 magazine, which is very similar to the ones for a Mini-14. You can do it with many kinds of magazines.


If the Norway shooter had been limited to a single 10-round magazine, he could have simply had a reloading guide on a lanyard around his neck and a satchel full of loaded stripper clips. Yank out the empty mag, slip on the tool, thumb in a clip, replace the magazine.

:shrug:

Some semi-automatic rifles like the SKS have fixed 10-round magazines and are reloaded with stripper clips. But you don't need to attach a reloading guide... it's built into the gun. When the gun's empty the bolt typically locks back. This lets you simply slip in a new stripper clip, push all the bullets into the magazine, toss the clip on the ground, and begin shooting again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KKkBMzzplo&feature=related

[SteveM]

141. All repeating arms have magazines, except those with clips...

Even my deer rifle, which holds only 4 rounds, has a magazine. As does my old .30-30. As does my 106-yr-old .22.

[Euromutt]

154. Even those with clips

The magazine is the part of a firearm that holds ammunition and feeds it into the action. Clips are used to bring and feed ammunition into the magazine.

The analogy I've drawn in the past is with a car's gas tank and a gas can; the gas tank holds the fuel and feeds it into the engine, while a gas can is used to bring fuel to the gas tank and feed it in. The main difference being that cars typically don't have detachable gas tanks.

[Euromutt]

42. That was my thought as well

Is the United States' fault that Norwegian customs are evidently not checking labels?

[RamboLiberal]

24. The seller may be in big legal trouble for the export

Although this revelation has led some politicians and others to wonder why such exports are legal, these exports might well have been illegal. The magazines in question would clearly have been Category I(h) items on the United States Munitions List and would have required a State Department license unless one of the export exemptions in the International Traffic in Arms Regulations was applicable. The only one arguably applicable would be the one found in section 123.17(a) which permits unlicensed exports of certain parts and components, including magazines, of “semi-automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive” provided the value does not exceed $100 wholesale in any transaction.

Because of the dollar limitation, the export of these magazines, if done in one transaction, would not have been eligible for the exemption and would have required a license, something that likely was not obtained given the relatively low cost of the transaction. Breivik’s “Manifesto” entry on the purchases also makes it sound like it was one export and ineligible for the $100 exemption:

10 x 30 round magazines – .223 cal at 34 USD per mag. Had to buy through a smaller US supplier (who again ordered from other suppliers) as most suppliers have export limitations.

Of particular note here is that Breivik was looking for a U.S. supplier who was willing to, er, overlook U.S. export requirements. That supplier should be very nervous, because I bet that they’ll find shipping documents in Breivik’s apartment with the supplier’s name.

http://www.exportlawblog.com/archives/3315

If so, DOJ should prosecute and ATF pull any firearms selling license.

[Hoyt]

44. A number of gun dealers do illegal things. Many are greedy and care little what purchasers do.

They get their money and that is all they really care about. If laws weren't tough, some would sell them to kids on the street.

[rl6214]

55. Kinda like your drug dealer, right?

[Blown330]

62. I'm going to have to say that isn't correct.

Magazines are not restricted or even specifically mentioned in the ITAR nor in any of its amendments. While it may seem that they should be regulated, they actually are not. Reason being is that ammunition magazines are not items that enhance capability or usefulness. Pretty much why slings, carry rigs, grips, rails, ect. are also not covered by the ITAR. My Trijicon ACOG scope is covered but only because it is a serialized optical device built to US military specifications. A knock-off scope would not be covered even if it was functionally the same. In fact, if you research 30-rd mags for the Mini-14 you'll come across a few vendors that specifically mention they ship internationally and it's up to the individual to determine if they are allowed to possession in their country.

[moondust]

36. He wasn't a "criminal."

Perfectly legal purchase by a non-criminal gun enthusiast.

Keep moving folks, nothing to see here...

[gejohnston]

49. not exactly

He went the legal route only because he did not have the connections to find a machine gun on the black market. I would have the same problem if I were looking for a bag of pot. So no, he was not a "gun enthusiast" any more than Tim McVeigh was a farmer.
That said, I just came back from the range after firing a couple of boxes of Serbian and US made ammo with my German made pistol (after getting a spare magazine from a Canadian supplier).

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

124. So you're...

...confessing to dealing in arms internationally?

:sarcasm:

[iverglas]

127. by *definition*

he was a "non-criminal gun enthusiast", or perhaps a "non-criminal hunter".

That was the rubric under which he obtained a licence to possess firearms and approval to acquire the particular firearms, in Norway.

"Non-criminal sports shooter" was the rubric under which Kimveer Gill obtained the firearms -- semi-automatic rifle, handgun, not legally accessible in Canada without proving membership in an approved shooting facility -- with which he killed one person and seriously injured several others before being stopped by police in Montreal not long ago.

[SteveM]

148. By definition he was a "non-criminal contemplating murder."

[Incitatus]

40. Yes, weapons are one of the few things the US still manufactures. nt

[RamboLiberal]

61. many of the companies who make weapons

Are foreign owned. I believe 2 of the 3 guns the killer owned were European companies.

[Euromutt]

105. Yep, a Glock and a Benelli; Austrian and Italian, resp.

Yes, both have subsidiaries in the United States, but those don't supply the European market.

[rl6214]

50. If purchased from a US supplier

then they would have had to have been listed on the import paperwork from the US and would have then been flagged when imported into the country. I would like to see a little more substantive proof.

[RSillsbee]

53. A 30 round MAGAZINE isn't HIGH capacity

It's standard capacity. I prefer 20 rounders but I have a dozen or so of those.What's your point?

[iverglas]

128. depends on your definition, eh?

To my co-vivant, "6 feet" isn't "tall".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_%28firearms%29#High_capacity_magazines

The term high capacity magazine is used to describe magazines that exceed an specified definition of "normal" capacity. In many jurisdictions, magazine capacity of certain firearms is legally restricted, such as it was under the United States' Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which defined a magazine capable of holding more than ten rounds of ammunition as a high capacity ammunition feeding device.

In Canada, this means 5 or 10 cartridges, keeping in mind that the firearms for which they are permitted (e.g. semi-automatic handguns, AR-15 rifle) are available only to "collectors" and individuals with restricted weapons licences, which means only to individuals who are members of approved sports shooting facilities and only for use at those facilities.

Canadian experience with mass murder lies behind these restrictions: Marc Lépine used a 30-round "banana clip" to kill 14 women and injure as many other people again, and had three of them with him.

[RSillsbee]

149. Standard

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/standard

2. an object that is regarded as the usual or most common size or form of its kind: We stock the deluxe models as well as the standards

The thirty round magazine is the usual or most common size magazine on the market for the Mini-14. (I wonder, does that make my 20 rounders lowcapacity magazines?)

You might have a point w/ the 30 round GLOCK magazines because that isn't the usual or most common size magazine for a pistol

[ileus]

59. Large-capacity assault clips...

[Hoopla Phil]

60. with heat seeking bullets.

[Blown330]

63. And...

...the shoulder thing that goes up.

[ileus]

112. and a scary vertical hand holder thing...

[Remmah2]

72. The BATF exports to Mexico, why not Norway? nt

nt

[Straw Man]

78. Factoids and bad journalism.

Norway forbids the sale of magazine clips for hunting rifles that hold more than three bullets, according to Norwegian newspaper Aftenposten.

Breivik wrote in his manifesto that while he could have purchased the high-capacity magazines in Sweden, they would have been significantly more expensive than ordering them from a U.S. supplier.

So are they legal in Norway or not? I think the writer is confusing hunting regulations with bans on magazines. What is the source of the outrage? That he got them cheaper? Kind of pales in the face of the fact that he just committed mass murder, doesn't it?

He also described legally buying four 30-round clips for a Glock handgun in Norway.

So apparently Norway doesn't ban "high-cap" magazines.

The Norwegian press has written extensively about how Breivik legally acquired his weapons and ammunition, but the mail-order purchase of his ammo from the United States has received little attention in the English-language press.

Simply erroneous: he purchased no ammo from the United States. "Clips" (magazines) are not ammo any more than a shoe is a foot.

Unrec for a knee-jerk and fallacious attempt to blame this whole thing on the US "gun culture."

[gejohnston]

81. So, does this mean

pearl clutchers will be storming Norwegian parliament.

[iverglas]

129. seems to me that what it means

is that you have used a misogynist and otherwise incivil label to describe imaginary people who don't conform to your notion of right thinking.

[RSillsbee]

150. If you can't defeat the argument

report the post.

[iverglas]

151. if you can't defeat the argument

use a tacky little misogynist insult to attack the speakers: "pearl clutchers".

I don't know who reported your post. Did someone report your post? What are you talking about? Why are you saying it to me?

So many questions ... so little interest ...

[Blown330]

153. And yet you bother to reply.

You use tacky little misogynist insults so why are you calling someone else out over it? Oh, you think you're just a poor widdle victim. How typical of you. :rofl:

[krispos42]

79. Yeah, because American ammunition is the deadliest of all!

Doubtless the guy used those new Hornady laser-guided HEAT-T¹ bullets they load in their .223 ammo

:eyes:

I get the Sportsman's Guide catalog. Actually, I get about 5 a day, or so it seems. Anyway, some of them are full of hunting or military-surplus ammo. If I have a Ruger Mini-14 to feed, I can get, mailed to my house, military-surplus NATO ammo from around the world. If I have an SKS to feed, I can get Chinese, Russian, American, and Eastern European ammo. If I have a Garand to keep happy, how about some South Korean military surplus that's probably older than I am?

If the ammunition was imported into Norway, then there's no issue, especially when it's available on the shelf of a Norwegian gun store.







¹high-explosive anti-tank, tracer

[Doctor_J]

156. Many of us ARE ashamed

But the NRA holds a lot more sway in Congress than we do