If she was armed she may be alive today.

[drpepper67]

http://www.wkrn.com/story/15226267/woman-fatally-stabbed-trying-to-protect-friend

A friend trying to stop a domestic dispute was stabbed to death Sunday night in LaVergne.

The fatal stabbing happened around 10 p.m. at a home on Tuffnell Drive.

LaVergne police told Nashville's News 2 Kenny Thomason, 47, was trying to get to his ex-wife, who has an order of protection against him.

[ellenfl]

1. when will our judicial system learn that

an order of protection is not worth the paper it's printed on.

ellen fl

[X_Digger]

3. My sister had a bad experience with her (now) ex-husband.

Rural North Carolina, police 20-30 minutes away on a good day.

The asshole would show up, make a scene, damage her car, etc- and disappear before the police could arrive. She ended up using a video camera to prove that he was breaking the terms of the protective order. (The order that she got when he cracked her jaw and dislocated her shoulder.)

[ileus]

8. I used to call the cops once a weekend at some apartments I lived at.

Our neighbors two single divorced moms with 3 kids between them. Both of their x's would show up at least every weekend to slap them around or yell and kick shit around a bunch.

[DWC]

2. Sadly, we will never know. n/t

[iverglas]

4. and if she didn't want to be "armed"

Well, ... um, well ... eh?

Presumably if she had wanted to be "armed" she could have been.

So what's your point?

[GreenStormCloud]

6. His point is that being a passive victim is a good way to get killed. N/T

[iverglas]

21. who the fuck was a passive victim?

This was a brave woman who actively and voluntarily intervened to help another woman whom an abusive violent man was trying to harm.

I think anybody's opinion about the "ifs" and "shoulds" of the situation are badly misplaced.

[Atypical Liberal]

24. How about "helpless" victim. n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

26. Yes, brave, but also stupid and now dead.

It takes more than courage alone. She needed a tool the help her. A gun would have been an excelllent tool. Withdraw "passive" and replace with "helpless".

[TPaine7]

13. "If"

What if she didn't want to

wear a helmet?

wear a seat belt?

use a condom?

look both ways before crossing the street?

"Well, ... um, well ... eh?"

Presumably if she'd wanted to do those things, she could have.

And yet we would never hear that kind of argument, except on one subject.

Funny that.

What's your point that isn't "special, applying to guns only"--you know, something principled?

[iverglas]

17. you did read the OP subject line

I presume.

What argument did you imagine you had heard, and from whom?

[TPaine7]

33. I don't imagine that you made an argument. You're far too mealy-mouthed for that.

You made a non-argument full of non-points, and made it sound as if there was some substance involved, somehow.

Would you care to spell out the substance behind your non-points and non-argument?

<typo>

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. That may not be a good assumption either...

Economics for one thing. Waiting periods would be another.

[iverglas]

31. wtf?

Economics and waiting periods explain why this particular woman in this particular situation was not "armed"?

Yes, her desire to have a firearm suddenly arose three days before her neighbour's abusive ex-partner came calling, and she just didn't have time or money to get hold of a firearm in preparation.

Is there some waiting period associated with purchasing a shotgun?

Does not some huge proportion of households in the US have firearms?

Is it not actually a really really good assumption that if someone wanted to have a firearm, they would have one? and that if someone had thought it wise to take that firearm to the situation described in this case, they would have?

So exactly what does this tale tell us?

[WhiteTara]

5. Or, the gun would have been taken, killed her

and as many others as there were bullets.

[GreenStormCloud]

7. Probability of that is very low, unless the victim is unwilling to use the gun. N/T

[SteveM]

18. "Gun taken?" Who? By DISARMAMENT MAN!

[rl6214]

39. Of course you are going to cite where that has happened before

right?

[ileus]

9. Every woman should at the very least carry a kimber pepper blaster.

My wife won't CC so I instead bought her a Kimber pepper blaster. You can find them for 29 bucks now so it's cheap enough to buy two. Test one (two shots) and carry one.

[iverglas]

20. doesn't your wife get household/pocket money

even if she has none of her own?

How come women don't buy all these devices and equipment themselves ... if they want them?

[Scout]

22. well you know how silly we women are ... how can we possibly know what we want?

personally, i rely on my husband to always tell me what i want and need, and then provide it. you know, so i won't be a helpless victim out there in the world when he's not there to protect me.

[iverglas]

30. and a smart cookie you obviously are!

;)

[TPaine7]

34. Just like the numerous husbands and boyfriends whose wives and girlfriends

obviously would go naked if it weren't for the women in their lives.

Women and men tend to focus on different things. Many women think about how to make their men look good when their men are focused elsewhere. Many men think of how to help their women defend themselves in an emergency when their women are focused elsewhere.

This is no more necessarily an insult to the women than it is to the men. Buying a woman a protective tool is not necessarily an act of oppression and misogyny, except to the woman with a chip on her shoulder.

[Scout]

35. so let me get this straight....

i'm either an addled silly little thing who needs a man to buy me a "protective tool" (whatever the hell that is) 'cuz i'm just too stupid to know i "need" one....

or i'm an oversensitive bitch with a chip on my shoulder


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

you boys just keep tellin' us girls what we want and need!

[TPaine7]

37. Have you considered "both"?

Not that that's my claim, but since you're volunteering.

Meanwhile there are millions of men whose women buy things for them that they wouldn't think of buying for themselves. And they actually say "thank you" for their women's trouble. I'm sure there are millions of women who do the same with their men. I like those women's approach.

[Scout]

43. have you considered "neither"?

probably not....

[TPaine7]

47. Yes. Before you raised your options, I had considered neither. n/t

[rl6214]

40. Yeah, your husband never buys anything for you

you always buy everything you need yourself.

[Scout]

42. yes, i do actually. unless he stops on his way home from work and buys a few groceries....

we are both adults, fully capable of realizing and meeting our own needs.

[ileus]

46. we're really fighting the patriarchy now...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. Due to cultural bias and social pressure many urban women are not aware of thier options

In terms of firearms or lesser tools for self defense.

[Scout]

32. "many urban women are not aware of thier options"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. Considering on what we hear while teaching firearms classes, the lack of information is astounding

Some might blame it on the patriarchy, but many women, mostly urban know very little about firearms, tasers, pepper spray etc.

[Scout]

44. well, gee, that's a kind of stupid sample don't you think?

after all, if they HAD the information, they wouldn't be taking your class, no?

:rofl:

couldn't be possible that the majority of the women who DON'T take your class already have, or do not need, the information your class offers.

"Wow, i can't believe how many people who take this Spanish language class can't speak Spanish already!"


:rofl:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

45. The classes I am involved with are not intro classes...but proficeincy and CCW

Though it is a self selecting sample we were amazed at the lack of information and misinformation that is generally believed. It almost seems that women are targeted for such misinformation. Then again, it is not like the antis want the truth told.

[rl6214]

41. What a great arguement this is

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

How articulate you are.

[ileus]

36. It was Christmas gift...she did buy herself an AR last year.

She's a director of quality at a FQHC she has plenty of pocket change.

[WingDinger]

10. Brilliant idea. A pepper fogger. You hit a panic button, and it fogs you and him.

Noone in their right mind would still advance. And, you could have it alert authorities. Far better than a gun. Better aim, and non lethal to either.

[X_Digger]

11. Not sure I'm taking your meaning..

You would have a victim deploy a device that may affect themselves as well as the attacker?

What would you have a victim do should the wind be blowing in the wrong direction? Or if the spray does not disable the attacker?

[WingDinger]

12. Ok, then make it skunk. Your life is saved. You stink, decent bargain.

[X_Digger]

14. And if the attacker has a cold? (ie, the smell doesn't affect them..)

What then?

[SteveM]

19. oh. 'thought you were making a serious argument. my mistake. nt

[WingDinger]

25. I am, and skunk goes right thru a stuffy nose.

[spin]

15. It is not always a bright idea to pepper spray a person with a gun ...

it just might piss him off and get you killed.

Never bring pepper spray to a gun fight.

Watch this Youtube video ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUOaUoUrnNE

[Atypical Liberal]

23. Now watch this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0-k85BIT-w&feature=related

I think the little squirt the first guy got isn't a fair showing.

[spin]

28. There are a lot a variables in using pepper spray ...

Delayed effect—chemicals take some time to affect the target, during which an attacker can continue to attack

Effectiveness is subject to weather conditions—completely ineffective in high winds and less effective in extreme cold

May be ineffective on some individuals—persons under the influence of some drugs, who are extremely agitated, or who have mental health problems may not be affected at all or may only be further agitated.

Cannot be effectively deployed against a target expecting it—sprays work best on persons who are surprised by its use

***snip**
http://www.cityoffargo.com/CityInfo/Departments/Police/CrimePrevention/PepperSpray/

The above except from a page on the use of pepper spray from the Fargo Police Department goes on to list several more disadvantages of pepper spray.

Here's a couple of instances I found on the net where pepper spray failed.

Security Guard Shoots Man After Pepper Spray Fails

Updated: Thursday, 22 Apr 2010, 10:48 AM CDT
Published : Thursday, 22 Apr 2010, 10:35 AM CDT]

Chicago - A man was shot by a security guard after he lunged at people with a knife late Wednesday in the West Side Austin neighborhood.

About 10:30 p.m., a security guard shot a 31-year-old man in the leg when the man lunged at employees with a knife in the 5100 block of West Chicago Avenue, according to police News Affairs Officer Amina Greer. Pepper spray had initially been used, but had no affect on the man, Greer said.
http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/metro/20100422-west-side-man-shot-pepper-spray

Pepper spray fails to deter armed robbers in Cicero
December 31, 2008

A woman pepper-sprayed three men in the face during an armed robbery Sunday night in Cicero.

Police said the men produced a gun, announced a stickup and grabbed the victim's purse at 4700 W. Roosevelt Rd.

Police said the men dropped the purse after being sprayed but recovered some of the items on the ground, including the woman's wallet, cell phone and camera, and fled east.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2008-12-31/news/0812300474_1_pepper-sprayed-purse-armed

But don't get me wrong, I believe that pepper spray can be very effective in many situations. In fact I carry pepper spray and have just reordered some for my daughter and myself as pepper spray has a shelf life.

I would point out that the chances of successfully using a concealed handgun for self defense is also subject to many variables. You can shoot an assailant numerous times and fail to stop his attack.

The best way to survive an attack without injury is just simply not to be there. That's why practicing situational awareness and using commonsense is often the most effective form of self defense.

And even if you do get attacked, it's not always necessary to whip out your pepper spay or a legally concealed weapon and start blasting away. It better to use your natural instincts and power of observation to determine the intentions of your opponent. If he looks rational and you believe that all he wants is your money, just had your wallet over. You can always replace your money, your credit cards and your driver's license. You can not replace your health or your life. You use your defensive skills or equipment only when you seriously believe that even if you comply with everything the attacker wants, he will still serious injure or kill you.

[Remmah2]

16. IBTL

nt