Virginia bar crime down since CCW allowed in bars

[Atypical Liberal]

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/2011/aug/14/tdmain01-gun-crime-drops-at-virginia-bars-and-rest-ar-1237278/

"Virginia's bars and restaurants did not turn into shooting galleries as some had feared during the first year of a new state law that allows patrons with permits to carry concealed guns into alcohol-serving businesses, a Richmond Times-Dispatch analysis found.

The number of major crimes involving firearms at bars and restaurants statewide declined 5.2 percent from July 1, 2010, to June 30, 2011, compared with the fiscal year before the law went into effect, according to crime data compiled by Virginia State Police at the newspaper's request.

...

"The numbers basically just confirm what we've said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law," said Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, which strongly lobbied for the law's change that made Virginia one of 43 states to allow concealed guns in restaurants that serve alcohol. "It's sort of a big yawn. So from my point of view, none of this is surprising."

"Keep in mind," Van Cleave added, "what the other side was saying — that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.""

Now we still can't say that "More guns = less crime", but we absolutely can say that "More guns does not equal more crime."

In particular, allowing concealed carry in bars has not increased shootings in bars.

[kestrel91316]

1. Has bar patronage perhaps decreased, lowering the risk of interpersonal conflict?

Because that, too, could account for the decrease in shootings. People staying away from bars because they are afraid of getting shot.......

[Atypical Liberal]

2. The article insinuates "no".

""Keep in mind," Van Cleave added, "what the other side was saying — that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.""

But even if it did, surely it would not decrease the number of CCW permit holders going to bars.

I have emailed the author of the article for clarification.

[SteveM]

3. "Has patronage perhaps decreased?" Didn't see this in the story...

Do you have any evidence that this occurred?

[Starboard Tack]

6. Excellent point

[Hoyt]

4. Wait until next Loughner walks in, or some cowboy thinks he's about to get chit kicked out of him.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

9. Still with the...

...baseless mantra.

How much proof will you require before you accept that your fear will not come to pass?

[TheWraith]

11. No proof will ever be enough. Hell, they're still waiting for shootouts over parking spaces.

It's simply an article of faith to some people: all Americans are dangerous, insane, potential murderers, unless they're under complete control at all times. Same way that it's a given to them that there's machine guns being sold at every gun show, and similar fantasies.

[Kennah]

24. I only ever remember one shooting over a parking space

Happened in Miami in 1998, just up the street from where I worked at the time, and it was a uniformed bank security guard who shot a guy over parking in one of "the bank's parking spaces" when he wasn't using the bank's services.

[Hoyt]

14. About time you realize your odds are way less than your fear of walking in public unarmed.

96% of us do it everyday without a second thought.

[Atypical Liberal]

16. And the 4% who do...

About time you realize your odds are way less than your fear of walking in public unarmed.

96% of us do it everyday without a second thought.

And the 4% who do carry firearms are less likely to be involved in any kind of crime than the rest of you are.

So stop sweating it.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

18. At one time...

96% of the people on this planet thought the earth was flat. Does that make them right?

The fact that the majority may choose to do something, or not do something, does not make it right for everyone.

You don't want to carry. Fine. Nobody is telling you to do so. You want to think I'm a fool for doing so, have at it. That is your right.

However, it is also MY right to carry and if I choose to do so, you can keep your mouth shut about it because it really is none of your business. The fact that it scares you is irrelevant.

[Atypical Liberal]

17. Hasn't happened yet.

It's only been a year though.

[DWC]

26. Do you actually think

the "next Loughner" (and there will be one) will give a chit if carrying a gun into a bar or on a college campus, or where ever is legal or not? He certainly won't care that mass murder is unlawful.

Semper Fi,

[ileus]

5. I no longer have to travel out of state to dine with the family...it's been nice.

before this passed I had to do the Virginia tuck....what welcome freedom. Thanks Virginia!

[Starboard Tack]

7. Must feel wonderful, knowing you're not the only one in the room with a gun

[Atypical Liberal]

8. Also knowing that there are such law-abiding people all around.

Must feel wonderful, knowing you're not the only one in the room with a gun

If I had my way, I'd surround myself with CCW holders all the time. They have been shown to be less likely to be involved in any kind of crime than people without one.

It is simply foolish to think there is some kind of fear factor involved in being in a room with other CCW permit holders.

[Starboard Tack]

10. Why would anyone feel fear being in a room full of gun toters?

Cops do it every day. One puzzles me is what kind of fear causes people to strap on a gun to go out to dinner, unless one is hunting for dinner.

[Atypical Liberal]

15. The same fear that causes people to wear seatbelts.

One puzzles me is what kind of fear causes people to strap on a gun to go out to dinner, unless one is hunting for dinner.

The same kind of fear that causes people to wear seatbelts. Or buy life insurance. Or smoke detectors. Or fire extinguishers. Or spare tires. Or carbon monoxide detectors.

[Starboard Tack]

22. LOL - I guess you're suggesting you don't carry out of fear.

If not, are you suggesting we should all carry by law, like seatbelts, smoke detectors etc.?
Or are you suggesting that seatbelts and smoke detectors are lethal weapons?

[Atypical Liberal]

25. All emergency preparedness is an exercise in "fear".

LOL - I guess you're suggesting you don't carry out of fear.
If not, are you suggesting we should all carry by law, like seatbelts, smoke detectors etc.?
Or are you suggesting that seatbelts and smoke detectors are lethal weapons?

First of all, I don't carry. I simply support those who choose to do so.

Second of all, of course carrying is driven by fear. Like I said, it's the same kind of fear that prompts me to wear my seatbelt every day - the fear that in the unlikely event of a car crash, it might save my life. I don't break out in a nervous sweat every time I get in my car, and I don't contemplate car crashes with undue panic. I'm simply prudent.

Likewise I have smoke detectors in my home. I do this out of the fear that we might have a house fire while my family is asleep in side and we might all asphyxiate in our sleep or burn to death. I don't worry incessantly about house fires, it's just one of those things that I know could happen and it is simple enough to have smoke detectors to cover that remote possibility.

Likewise I have a spare tire in my car. I've never had a flat tire, and I don't worry too much about having one. In fact, I don't worry at all, since I also pay for a roadside assistance plan. But the point is, I worry about being stranded on the side of the road, so I have taken easy, inexpensive precautions against that remote possibility.

Likewise I have life insurance. I don't worry about dying, in fact I never really think about it at all. But when I did think about it, the fear of dying and leaving my family in dire financial straights prompted me to take out a life insurance policy. I don't sweat in fear of dying all the time, though.

Carrying a firearm is the same way. Your insinuation is that people who carry firearms are just consumed in fear. This is probably not the case for most who carry firearms. Like smoke detectors, seat belts, insurance, and a host of other tools we have at our disposal, firearms are an easy-to-acquire tool that some people choose to carry in the rare situation that they might need it.

So yes, all emergency preparedness is an exercise in "fear". Just not the kind of fear you are insinuating.

[Starboard Tack]

27. "First of all, I don't carry. I simply support those who choose to do so."

You must be kidding. You say you're afraid of all those other things. I thought you were joking when you brought up fire extinguishers, seatbelts, spare tires etc.. You really use those out of fear?
Prudence, OK, but fear?

"Your insinuation is that people who carry firearms are just consumed in fear. This is probably not the case for most who carry firearms"

So you are inferring that it is the case for some. How many is OK with you? 5%, 50%, somewhere in between? You're afraid of not having a fire extinguisher and not afraid of "some" toters walking around, consumed by fear? I never thought that a bunch of them were "consumed by fear". I just thought they were being extremely silly and unnecessarily endangering their own and other people's lives.

Then, you describe toting as "emergency preparedness". LOL. If you truly think that, why aren't you prepared? You seem to be prepared for every other contingency. I wear my seatbelt out of habit and it's the law. I don't have smoke detectors. I have fire extinguishers because it's prudent and the law. I don't have life insurance, because it's a scam and pointless. I carry a spare tire because it's prudent.
Emergency preparedness is having a parachute when flying. I wonder how many toters fly without one.
All the preparedness nonsense and 2A "civil right" crap is just a smokescreen to hide their insecurities and real reasons for their behavior. When you live in a fantasy world, anything is justifiable.

[Atypical Liberal]

29. What is prudence but fear?

You must be kidding. You say you're afraid of all those other things. I thought you were joking when you brought up fire extinguishers, seatbelts, spare tires etc.. You really use those out of fear?
Prudence, OK, but fear?

What is prudence but fear?

Come on. You know what I'm talking about here. I am not talking about some kind of phobia fear where you are afraid to go to sleep at night for fear of your house burning down.

This is the kind of fear you are implying that people who carry guns have. Some kind of deep-seated, all-pervasive fear. This is probably not the case for most people who carry a gun. It is simply prudence, as you say.

So you are inferring that it is the case for some. How many is OK with you? 5%, 50%, somewhere in between?

You're afraid of not having a fire extinguisher and not afraid of "some" toters walking around, consumed by fear? I never thought that a bunch of them were "consumed by fear". I just thought they were being extremely silly and unnecessarily endangering their own and other people's lives.

I have no doubt that there are some people who carry guns because they are really afraid that they are going to be attacked. I also have no doubt that there are some people who carry guns just because it makes them feel macho.

Since CCW permit holders are hardly ever involved in any kind of crime, I don't really care what their motivation is for carrying. It doesn't bother me why such people carry guns, because they are hyper-law-abiding people who are unlikely to cause any problems.

Then, you describe toting as "emergency preparedness". LOL. If you truly think that, why aren't you prepared? You seem to be prepared for every other contingency.

I don't carry a firearm because in all my 40 years I have never directly experienced violent crime. I don't think it is very likely to happen to me. I have had the good fortune to be raised by an upper-middle class family and I have gone on to have my own upper-middle-class family, and as such I have always enjoyed work and life in places relatively crime-free.

I have considered getting a CCW permit anyway, especially after the University of Alabama campus shooting that happened in my class building the day I was not in class. But the problem is that carrying is a hassle. There are many places you can't carry (like on campus), which means I would have to leave my gun in my car, which I don't like doing. Plus I have children, and so I would have to be very aware at all times that the firearm stayed on my person and that I never took it off or set it down someplace or forgot that I left it in my car and one of my kids picks it up to play with it.

In short, I would actually like to carry, to be prepared, but the hassle is not worth the perceived benefit.

I wear my seatbelt out of habit and it's the law. I don't have smoke detectors. I have fire extinguishers because it's prudent and the law. I don't have life insurance, because it's a scam and pointless. I carry a spare tire because it's prudent.

Everyone should be free to obtain whatever tools they feel are prudent. I would hope that you would wear a seatbelt and have fire extinguishers even if it wasn't the law, because it's the prudent thing to do.

If you don't have smoke detectors, I strongly urge you go to get at least one to put in your bedroom. They are extremely inexpensive. Likewise, if you have a gas furnace, I strongly urge you to go get a carbon monoxide alarm. They are also fairly inexpensive. These tools are very cheap compared to the cost of needing them and not having them. It's only prudent.

Life insurance may be a scam, but if I died in a car accident my family would be in dire straights. I have two small children and my wife does not work outside of the home, and has not for 5 years now. My million-dollar policy will help them survive if I am gone. If you don't have life insurance and you have a family that depends on you you are rolling the dice unless you have sufficient savings to make up for it, which we don't.

All the preparedness nonsense and 2A "civil right" crap is just a smokescreen to hide their insecurities and real reasons for their behavior. When you live in a fantasy world, anything is justifiable.

While I'm sure there are some gun owners who have insecurities or other reasons for owning firearms, there are a whole lot who own them for emergency preparedness and because the second amendment is a Constitutionally protected individual right that they wish to exercise.

The primary reason I own firearms is for competitive and recreational shooting. But I also own weapons and a cache of ammunition specifically for emergencies.

But then, I'm an Eagle Scout. Be Prepared.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

12. Doesn't bother me either way.

You see, I don't worry about what others do unless and until it directly affects me.

Note, i said "directly affects", not "scares".

[thereismore]

13. we absolutely can say that "More guns does not equal more crime." Not so fast.

Words like absolutely testify to great faith, but the data is very limited.

[Atypical Liberal]

19. Clear enough.

Shootings in bars has declined over 5% in the last year that CCW has been allowed in them.

By itself, this is pretty meaningless.

But it follows the general trend. Nearly everywhere that firearm laws have gotten more permissive, crime rates have fallen.

You can't say it's because there are more guns, but you certainly can't say that more guns equals more crime. And I do have great faith in that.

[MyrnaLoy]

20. dupe

already been posted and discredited in this forum.

[X_Digger]

21. From two separate OPs in two separate forums.. one in LBN, one here. n/t

[Kennah]

23. Law in WA is very similar and has been for years

Only restrictions in WA on carry vis-a-vis alcohol is that one cannot carry into any place where the liquor control board has deemed it off limits to those under 21.

Restaurant that serves alcohol is fine, just not the lounge area where you can't bring your kids. Bars are also similarly restricted, if you can't bring your kids.

If it's safe enough for my kids, then it's safe enough for my guns.

Still no blood.

[Remmah2]

28. How long had the lawyers been fighting?

bar crime down (lawyer joke)