I ran across a good alternative to a concealed firearm for those who will not get a carry permit ...

[spin]

Many people oppose firearms and the use of a firearm for self defense and because of their views would be unable to shoot another person even if they realized that they would suffer serious injury or even death from an attacker. There is nothing wrong with being unwilling to hurt or kill another individual in legitimate self defense just as there is nothing wrong with willing to do so if absolutely necessary. People and their beliefs differ.

Ruger firearms is making an interesting pepper spray device.





This device not only has pepper spray but also has a an alarm and a strobe light to disorient attackers.

A video of this device can be watched at:

http://www.ruger.com/micros/pepperSpray/index.html#

I have a concealed weapons permit and I carry not only a firearm but pepper spray. I feel that my concealed revolver is and should be a last resort.

This device costs $29.95. Other Ruger pepper spray systems can be found on the web page with the video above.

NOTE: This pepper spray is illegal in many areas of our nation.

*Pepper Spray Warnings - Possession and/or use is regulated or prohibited by law in some jurisdictions. If you have questions about the legality of Pepper Spray in your jurisdiction, CHECK WITH LOCAL POLICE. NEVER USE Pepper Spray UNLESS you are THREATENED or you need to protect someone else. IMPROPER USE of Pepper Spray could result in CRIMINAL action. You could be sued or in some states fined up to $1000 or imprisoned for up to 3 years. Pepper Spray cannot be carried on a COMMERCIAL AIRLINE where it is accessible. This is a federal crime with a $25,000 fine. There may be SECURED LOCATIONS such as federal buildings, state buildings or any place you must pass through security where you cannot have Pepper Spray. Keep Pepper Spray OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN for their protection.***********************************We cannot ship/sell Pepper Spray to Annapolis, MD, Baltimore, MD, Baltimore County, MD, Alaska, Chicago, IL, Hawaii, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, Philadelphia, PA, Rhode Island, Washington DC, Wisconsin, all APO's and FPO's, Puerto Rico, Guam, and all US Territories. Do not order if your bill to address or shipping address is one of these locations. emphasis added

****

Disclaimer: I am not an employee of Sturm, Ruger & Company, Inc nor do I own stock in the company. My experience with the company has been through owning several of their firearms which I have found extremely study and reliable.

edited to add comment

[ileus]

1. I carry a kimber pepper blaster often...nice and light

[spin]

4. It is always nice to have several choices of tactics or devices to use ...

if you are attacked.

Pepper spray can be a good non lethal weapon to use in many situations.

My daughter once knew a guy who sold pepper spray. He decided to make a video of what happened after he sprayed himself. My daughter said it was pretty damn boring as he just laid on the floor crying for one half an hour. This spray carried no manufacturer markings so I suspect it was more powerful than the usual spray you can buy.

I gave a canister to a woman I knew. When my friends daughter came home from school, she mistook it for perfume. Fortunately when she sprayed it, she did not have it pointed at her face.

Everybody in the house had to leave for an hour.

[ileus]

5. I bought my wife one, I liked it so much I bought another.

I also bought one for her to "practice" with. The speed is amazing you won't dodge the spray that's for sure....now if only we'd had a test subject. :)

[spin]

28. I just bought two ...

to replace the two with expired dates. One for my daughter and one for myself.

I would not want to be a volunteer. I love hot sauce and often use habanero or jalapeño peppers in my food. The hotter the better. My son in law once gave a visitor (who he really didn't like) a small sample of one of the more mild hot sauces that I have. He was choking and broke out into a sweat. I walked into the kitchen and asked what was happening.

When I was told what was going on I said, "Shit, that stuff isn't hot." I poured out a tablespoon and put it into my mouth. I laughed and smiled and walked away leaving my poor son in law's victim looking amazed. (My son in law is quite capable of being an asshole but I still view him as a son.)

While I love hot peppers and hot sauces like Dave's Ghost Pepper Naga Jolokia Hot Sauce, I would not want to have pepper spray hit my eyes. Often after I have ate, I accidentally rub one of my eyes. It HURTS!!!!

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starboard Tack]

3. Good post. Excellent option, especially for the ladies.

This is a true weapon of self defense. Should be legal everywhere.

[spin]

6. Agreed. I can't figure out why it is illegal in some areas. (n/t)

[We_Have_A_Problem]

7. For the same reason...

...firearms are illegal in some areas. Some people really do not like the idea of the general public being able to defend themselves.

[spin]

22. Exactly right!

In some areas of this nation the people in power feel the general public is not smart enough to be trusted to use any item designed for self defense.

For example, Ruger can't ship this device to Chicago or Washington DC, two cities which had the most draconian gun laws in the nation until the recent Supreme Court decisions. These two cities are still fighting tooth and nail to stop as many citizens as possible from owing handguns for self defense by placing as many hurdles as possible in the path to handgun ownership.

It's not surprising that they would oppose pepper spray. Of course, the criminal element in those cities would have no problem getting pepper spray if they ever wanted it.

[iverglas]

25. indeed, for the same reason firearms are illegal in some areas

Speaking for my area, anyhow: because the availability and carrying around of weapons by members of the public is regarded as repugnant and creates a risk to members of the public.

You started out aiming so well, and then just missed.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

46. Because...

...the number of blacks walking around in public is regarded as repugnant and creates a risk to members of the public.


Same mentality - and just as false.

[iverglas]

48. you need to take your ugly false assertions

and shove them up the barrel of somebody's gun.

You are disgusting.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

52. Sorry you don't like the comparison

Deal with it. A civil right is a civil right.

[iverglas]

57. you're not sorry, and it wasn't a comparison

[We_Have_A_Problem]

63. You're right, I'm not sorry.

However, it was most certainly a comparison.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/comparison

Note definitions 3 and 4 which I have politely pasted here for your reference to save you the risk of damaging your mouse finger...

3. a likening; illustration by similitude; comparative estimate or statement.
4. Rhetoric . the considering of two things with regard to some characteristic that is common to both, as the likening of a hero to a lion in courage.

Now, if you can explain how what I said was not a comparison, by all means, please feel free to attempt the linguistic gymnastics to do so, otherwise, kindly keep your ignorance to yourself. It is getting old.

Oh - one other thing - stop following me. Its getting pretty pathetic seeing your sad attention getting efforts. Besides, you wouldn't want your friends to discover you've been chasing after a member of the patriarchy.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

58. Some seem to worship at the alter of the "public" and cry that weapons make them feel intimated or

afraid. They forget that the "public" used to feel afraid/intimidated/offended by blacks, non-whites, gays inter racial couples, gay couples...

[We_Have_A_Problem]

64. They sure do...

and they damn sure don't like the fact that the ownership and use of weapons is a protected civil right.

"You're scaring the public" wasn't a good enough reason then, and it isn't now. If Person A is afraid of Person B's legal behavior, tough shit for Person A.

[ileus]

11. some people would rather have victims...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

32. Gun-control is not about guns. It's about control.

SOS, just a different toilet to flush.

[SteveM]

14. Agreed, with another benefit...

Though ample data is now available which shows the belief that an armed citizens would likely have their own firearm taken and used against them is not likely, even in the event this were to occur, a citizen would not be killed with the device.

[gravity556]

62. Ever tried to take a pistol away from someone without getting shot, Steve?

Get an airsoft gun so you don't hurt yourself and have a buddy try and take the gun away without you shooting him repeatedly. I would also suggest that he wear long sleeves, goggles and a cup-trust me, an airsoft BB to the wedding tackle will get your full and undivided attention.

I carry an ASP pepper spray that doubles as a a handy kubotan. I also have serious back problems, so I walk with a cane-either carbon fiber or Irish Blackthorn depending on my mood. and since getting in a wrestling match is also out of the question (I am disinclined to sustain further back injuries), I also carry a pocket knife that is honed scalpel sharp, and as an absolute last ditch effort, I also carry a Keltec P3AT and a spare mag, or, sometimes a Glock 19 and a spare mag.

I am unable to run away in the brave fashion advised by our pro-criminal safety advocate from the north, and I am unwilling to take a beating for some thug's entertainment. I am also unwilling to be robbed. Any attempts to do me harm will immediately result in the assailant being pepper sprayed, smacked with a cane and held at gunpoint until law enforcement arrives.

I have had the benefit of gun retention training thanks to some friends in law enforcement, as well as training in where to place effective baton (cane) strikes.

I used to carry an inch and a half guardrail nut on the end of a length of 550 cord. Not whiz-bang tactical, but one good smack to the grape and it's coloring books for Christmas time. ;)

[iverglas]

24. excuse me, really, though

"especially for the ladies"

:puke:

[spin]

31. It works well for either men or women ...

Pepper spray can be a great equalizer as can a concealed handgun.

There are advantages and disadvantages. In some circumstances a firearm may be far more effective. In others, while lethal force may be justified, pepper spray might stop the attack and it is non lethal and does not cause serious injury.

[Starboard Tack]

35. I know, my wife had the same reaction. Shame on me.

Must be a remnant from my oh so proper upbringing.

[one-eyed fat man]

60. There are other bizarre statutes

Virtually all of the states and cities with the most restrictions on guns restrict the use of pepper sprays, chemical mace etc. Some, like New York permit "bear sprays" but not for defense against criminals. A couple ban sprays which use dyes. The ad copy for one such spray reads:

"....and an easily visible green I.D. dye that can take days to remove from the skin. The addition of this highly visible dye means that the person who is sprayed will have to stay out of the public eye (possibly missing work, avoiding friends, family and even strangers) for days, or risk being identified as an assailant."

Another brand uses a blue dye, and a couple have UV dyes which only show up under a blacklight. What valid reason would a state have to make the "marking" of an assailant with a dye illegal?

Perhaps, in the case of New York, which permits bear spray but not self-defense sprays sees the use of the dye as indication it's not a bear spray?

[Zoigal]

8. Does anyone know if this device is legal in California?

Checked their website, but couldn't find all the info regarding
size, etc. Thanks....z

[spin]

20. The Ruger web site says to check with your local law enforcement ...

to see if it is legal.

It would not surprise me in the least if it was illegal in California. California is one state where the elected officials love to ban things. that's one reason I would never live there.

[Zoigal]

21. Thanks...i avoid police as much as i can...they have a tendency to bring

out my sarcastic side unfortunately. (Actually have
never even had a ticket for anything, but have participated
in a couple of strikes where i saw the police acting like storm
troopers for absolutely no reason IMO...like smashing newspaper
men's cameras, strip searching for walking across the streets without
permission, etc). Know that some pepper devices are okay in California
so may have to settle for one of those.....z

[slackmaster]

43. California has a limit of 2.5 ounces for unlicenced personal defense use

http://www.pepper-spray-store.com/relatedinfo/california-laws.shtml

[TheCowsCameHome]

9. What else do you carry?

A gun, pepper spray,.....

It must really be bad out there, eh?

[ret5hd]

10. nunchucks and throwing stars.

[spin]

19. "Why carry Nunchucks if you can carry a .45 auto?" ,,,

That's what my martial arts instructor told the class one time.

[slackmaster]

44. Getting busted for concealed nunchaku or shuriken brings a felony charge in California

A handgun can be billed as a misdemeanor if it's a first offense.

[spin]

47. California weapons law always amaze me ...

I believe that if I wanted to I could carry nunchaku or shuriken as I have a concealed weapons permit. The law is somewhat vague on those particular weapons, but they probably would fit under the rules as a "billie" or "dirk" or "other deadly weapon"

90.001 Definitions.—As used in this chapter, except where the context otherwise requires:

***snip***

(3)(a) “Concealed weapon” means any dirk, metallic knuckles, slungshot, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the weapon from the ordinary sight of another person.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2010/790.001

[slackmaster]

50. A California CCW permit specifies the make, model, and serial number of up to three handguns...

...that the permit holder is permitted to carry concealed.

[spin]

51. Damn. I can carry any handgun I want with my Florida concealed weapons permit ...

Florida doesn't care about the make, model and serial number of the firearm I carry. Why should California? I can't visualize any reason for the state to care about the exact weapon you choose to carry. It just sounds like an attempt to harass those who do have a CCW in California.

[slackmaster]

53. In the state-mandated shooting test, you have to bring all three to the range...

...and the instructor picks which one you have to qualify with.

My 1911 would be no problem.

My Glock would be no problem.

My Sig Sauer P232 would be no problem.

The Smith & Wesson Airlite would be a bit of a challenge, but the shooting is done at seven yards so I'm sure I could handle it.

[spin]

54. The small S&W revolvers are challenging to master...

especially the Airlites. The snubbies are primarily "belly guns", but with a lot of practice (which can be painful) you can develop some skill and accuracy.

I find my Model 642 S&W Airweight very challenging to shoot at 45 feet but my S&W Model 60 with a 3" barrel has far better sights and is a pleasure to shoot even with .357 rounds. Of course it is much heavier. I carry the Model 642 more often than the Model 60 as it is lighter and is a great handgun for pocket carry. With the Model 60 I use an IWB holster and it is harder to conceal in the Florida summer heat. It more of my winter gun when I can wear a light jacket.


S&W Model 642


S&W Model 60

[ManiacJoe]

55. The nice thing about the FL permit is that it is a

concealed WEAPON permit, not just a concealed pistol permit (like WA has for example).

[spin]

56. Yup, I like Florida gun laws. (n/t)

[SteveM]

15. He's from Florida: A rabid otter or two, sticking out. nt

[spin]

18. I have never even seen an otter in Florida let alone a rabid one ...

I have seen a lot of alligators and snakes.

[SteveM]

26. I've seen a number of otters, big as dogs in some cases...

crossing the Cedar Key Highway near -- voila! -- Otter Creek. I swear they moved like seals.

The rabid bit keeps cropping up in folklore; latest being in Outdoor Life where a rabid one attacked fishers somewhere in Idaho, I think. Well, when the water skier falls into a nest of water moccasins for the forty-eleventh time, you gotta update! Keeps the tourists down.

[spin]

16. I also carry two knives ...

But I don't carry them as weapons but as tools. If you have never carried a knife you have no idea of how useful they can be in everyday life.

I carry one fully serrated folding Spyderco Endura for cutting wire and cardboard boxes etc. It might also come in handy to cut off a seat belt. Many people carry a knife with a partially serrated blade, I find that a very poor compromise. I often abuse this knife, but that's why I carry it.



I also carry a fixed blade knife for lighter tasks and food prep. I don't like to use a folder for food prep as it is much harder to clean. I have a variety of plain edged fixed blades to chose from. Most come from Bark River Knife and Tool company. They produce knives with a convex edge which I find easier to sharpen than knives from many other manufacturers.

Right now I have a Northwoods Buffalo Skinner on my side. This is a new knife I just purchased. I was looking for a knife with a blade a little longer than 4" for food prep. My daughter keeps buying these enormous tomatoes and I hate to use a kitchen knife to cut them. My daughter and son in law just don't understand that you should always use a cutting board when using a knife to cut food. Their knives are usually just a bit sharper than a butter knife. I like sharp knives.



Often when I am out in public especially in a more urban area of Florida than the small town where I live, I shift over to a Bark River Bravo Necker II knife in a kydex sheath. I usually carry it on my belt. It's less intimidating than some of my other knives.





Some people like to be prepared. Others don't.

[TlalocW]

12. Haven't been attacked yet

Maybe because I'm a big guy, but I always feel safe with my keys in my hand ready to stabbity-stab. Cuz, face it... if someone gets the drop on me with a gun, keys are as useful (in that they're not) as a gun, pepper-spray, etc. If it's an unarmed or differently armed person rushing me, I'm not going to have to fumble with pulling a gun out of its holster or pepper spray out of its holder.

My sister and her family live out in the country at the end of their road. Even after the, "No Outlet," and "Private Property," signs he still gets morons driving onto his property at night. One time, a bunch of drunks came down his drive and followed it to the back of the house where he has a large workshop. They got out, got in the back of their truck and started drinking. My brother-in-law, who grew up with guns, shoots them all the times, and is an avid hunter, panicked, got his rifle, and went out the door yelling at them to get off his property while attempting to load his rifle and fumbling several bullets on the way. Fortunately, the sight of the gun scared them off, and they got the hell out of Dodge before he got too close to them. I figure if this guy can get all fumbly, then chances are I'm going to shoot my nuts off, and my stabbin' keys are probably the only thing I should allow myself as a weapon for my own protection. :)

TlalocW

[spin]

17. Keys may not be your best choice ...

10 Personal Safety Tips by Robert L Siciliano © 2011

***snip***

Never Use Your Keys As A Weapon: Contrary to popular belief, your keys are not a good weapon. Using your keys as a weapon can injure your hand, the keys can break, you lose your “key to safety” and you lose access to your car and home, which are safe havens. Unless it’s a LARGE key. Then it’s a good weapon.
http://robertsiciliano.com/security-tips/personal-safety/

Many years ago when I took jujitsu classes, I learned a "trick." Use a tightly rolled up magazine as a club. You can hit, stab and poke someone in the face with one. It's amazingly effective and legal everywhere.

[DWC]

13. Ditto

"I have a concealed weapons permit and I carry not only a firearm but pepper spray. I feel that my concealed revolver is and should be a last resort." Me too.

Situational awareness, avoidance, and least force necessary are primary tenants of self defense. My pepper spray is one more available defensive option. The last thing any sane person wants to do is employ lethal force if it can be avoided.

Semper Fi,

[iverglas]

23. fortunately, where I'm at ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray#Canada

Canada

In Canada all products with a label containing the words pepper spray, mace, etc., or otherwise originally produced for use on humans are classified as a prohibited weapon. Only law enforcement officers may legally carry or possess pepper spray. Any similar canister with the labels reading "dog spray" and/or "bear spray" is regulated under the Pest Control Products Act - while legal to be carried by anyone, it is against the law if its use causes 'a risk of imminent death or serious bodily harm to another person' or harming the environment and carries a penalty up to a fine of $500,000 and jail time of maximum 3 years.

In April, 2011, the creator of a system to integrate pepper spray with a home security system was charged with trafficking in illegal weapons. It was also designed to be installed in cars.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-462/FullText.html

Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited or Restricted (SOR/98-462)

... PART 3
PROHIBITED WEAPONS
Former Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 1

1. Any device designed to be used for the purpose of injuring, immobilizing or otherwise incapacitating any person by the discharge therefrom of

(a) tear gas, Mace or other gas, or

(b) any liquid, spray, powder or other substance that is capable of injuring, immobilizing or otherwise incapacitating any person.

I prefer not to be accosted by a criminal wielding pepper spray, although it would be better than a criminal wielding a handgun. Given criminals' difficult access to handguns, one might expect them to figure out that pepper spray would be a useful alternative, um, tool. So I'm glad it isn't available.

I'll have to get around to telling wiki that this "law enforcement officer" talk is not Canadian ...

[spin]

29. Fortunately???? ...

I'm not in the least surprised that pepper spray is basically illegal for self defense in Canada.

Let me ask you, what can you do to defend yourself from a violent attack that threatens your life or your health in Canada?

[iverglas]

33. I'm not at all surprised that you would make such a twisty statement

I'm not in the least surprised that pepper spray is basically illegal for self defense in Canada.

Pepper spray is illegal for possession in Canada. Period.

Let me ask you, what can you do to defend yourself from a violent attack that threatens your life or your health in Canada?

You can ask all you like. And you can find the answers spread all over this forum, across the years and over dozens of threads. I know as well as you do that you haven't missed at least some of the multiple discussions in which the law pertaining to the use of force in Canada has been discussed.

Carrying weapons is not legal in Canada.

[spin]

36. Why do you want to avoid answering the question?

As a Canadian woman what can you legally do if you are attacked by a much larger male who intends to inflict serious injury to kill you? What are your options?

[iverglas]

37. why are you saying something about me that is false?

If you want the answer to that question, go do your own damned homework.

I am really not under any obligation of any kind to repeat myself endlessly at this place just because somebody decides to demand it.

I HAVE ANSWERED THAT QUESTION over and over and over.

Here's your clue: "Criminal Code of Canada".

[iverglas]

38. dog almighty

Not two weeks ago, and you were in the thread in question, which curiously enough was ABOUT CANADA.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=444294&mesg_id=444379

[spin]

39. Correct me if I am wrong ,

but as I read the Criminal Code of Canada, I see a lot of legal babble like:

Defence of Person

Self-defence against unprovoked assault

34. (1) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted without having provoked the assault is justified in repelling force by force if the force he uses is not intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm and is no more than is necessary to enable him to defend himself.

It may sound nice and pretty and it may be wrapped up with a cute pink bow, but it unrealistic. Assume that my daughter who is 5' 2" and weighs 100 pounds is a citizen of Canada. She is attacked by a young male who is 20 years younger then she is and is 6" 2" and weighs 220 pounds of shear muscle.

She is supposed to repel the attack by using "force by force" and not use any force that might cause death or grievous injury.

Ah, but there are addition provisions ... maybe these will cover the disparity in size and strength between my daughter and her attacker!

Preventing assault

37. (1) Every one is justified in using force to defend himself or any one under his protection from assault, if he uses no more force than is necessary to prevent the assault or the repetition of it.

Extent of justification

(2) Nothing in this section shall be deemed to justify the wilful infliction of any hurt or mischief that is excessive, having regard to the nature of the assault that the force used was intended to prevent.

Nope, I guess not. Damn!

Well surely she can carry some form of a weapon that can equalize the difference in size and strength between herself and the attacker?

Oh, that's right. You already mentioned that when you said in post #33 "Carrying weapons is not legal in Canada." You also provided several links in post # 23 that informed me that even pepper spray is illegal for civilians to carry in Canada.

I'm not sure, but perhaps you have some mighty tough women in Canada who have no problem taking on much bigger male opponents and meeting force with equal force. Then again you might have some really wimpy guys in Canada. Maybe your guys are really nice and never attack women smaller than they are.

But it just might be so damn cold in Canada that everyone stays inside and never bother other people.

It is your country and I should not criticize your laws. In my opinion though your self defense laws strike me as impractical, foolish and to some extent misogynistic.

[iverglas]

49. if you can find any EVIDENCE

that the law of self-defence in Canada, or in any of the many jurisdictions that apply the same principles, have caused any of the horrible problems that are constently dreamed up and flung around here, please do so.

If you can even stop pretending that things are what they aren't ...

She is supposed to repel the attack by using "force by force" and not use any force that might cause death or grievous injury.

You copied and pasted the actual provision right above it, and THAT IS NOT WHAT IT SAYS.

... if the force he uses is not intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm and is no more than is necessary to enable him to defend himself.

INTENDED to cause death or grievous bodily harm, not THAT MIGHT cause death or grievous bodily harm.

Words mean things.

And you have invented a problem where none lies.

The prohibition on carrying firearms around in public could conceivably limit someone's ability to defend themself with the result that they died.

Perfectly frankly, I am not aware of one single homicide in Canada ever where that was the case. Maybe you are.

[spin]

61. Two attorneys can spend all day arguing about the meaning of a law

in a court.

I am not an attorney so I will not waste my time going round and round trying to out argue a professional attorney. (At least not today, too many things going on.)

But let me ask you, In Canada what force can my daughter who is 5'2" and weighs 100 pounds use against an attacker who intends to severely injure or kill her and is 20 years younger then she is and is 6" 2" and tips the scale at 220 pounds of shear muscle?

Correct me if I am wrong but as I understand Canadian laws:

1) She can not legally carry a handgun.

2) She can not legally carry pepper spray.

3) She MAY be able to carry a folding knife that locks when opened. The laws seem rather vague. However using a knife for self defense is a martial art and while many untrained people have successfully defended themselves with a knife, it's not as easy as it looks. I wouldn't want to be a woman the size of my daughter attempting to defend herself with a pocket knife against an attacker like I described.

This is a serious question and I hope to get a reply.

[Kennah]

27. Guns and OC are Apples and Orangutans

Guns are deadly force. OC is at a very low level of force. You cannot substitute one for the other.

I'm not saying don't carry it. I'm saying have reasonable expectations of what it can and cannot do as well as where it should and should not be used.

Tasers are pretty close to Phasers on stun, but not OC.

[spin]

30. It is true that it may not be as effective as a firearm in stopping an attack ...

but I posted the OP to give those who would never consider owning and carrying a firearm a reasonably good alternative.

I personally know people who had reason to believe that they might be attacked. One was a friend of my daughter who had attracted the same stalker that my daughter did. She was opposed to firearms, so I gave her a canister of pepper spray. Fortunately she has never had to use it.

I carry pepper spray because I want to have an alternative to using my concealed weapon in many situations. I really do not wish to shoot anyone unless there is no other choice.

I agree that it pepper spray may not be as effective as a firearm, but while a situation may justify the use of lethal force I like the option of using non lethal force. It all depends on the level of threat that I might encounter. I might chose to pepper spray on an unarmed attacker but shoot an attacker with a gun or a knife. Of course if the pepper spray was ineffective, I would chose to use my firearm.

[Kennah]

34. I think we're pretty much in agreement ...

... it's just that some purveyors of OC all but sell it as Rapist Repellent. The subject always makes me uneasy.

[slackmaster]

45. A trained Orangutan would be pretty effective against most attackers

All except ones who are carrying guns.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

59. I assume you have seen the Trunk Monkey videos

Probably banned in DC, Chicago, and Canada

[eallen]

40. Personally, I wouldn't want to live where I felt I had to go about armed.

First, I'm a gun-owner on the pro-gun side here.

Second, I recognize that in any society, there are circumstances that generate for some a real need to be armed. I can tell some interesting stories in that regard. So I support concealed-carry permits.

That said, I personally have no interest in living where the average person needs to carry a weapon to go out and about on the streets. One of the benefits of living in a decent society is that people are relatively safe out in public, including children walking to schools and pools, young mothers bicycling with children in tow, the blind and the deaf, the disabled using cane or wheelchair, those who are so old that they move with a deliberate slowness, and just the average person who wants to go out for a walk or a drink or a coffee, without thinking about what he needs from his house other than money and house key. If those.

Yes, I recognize that there are lots of American neighborhood where that is not the case. I consider that a social failure. And while it may be wise for those who must live in such neighborhoods to carry a gun, those who are capable and willing to put in the hours to become adept, that will not solve the larger problem. I think gun owners are missing something when they mistake individual self-defense as a solution to that problem. It isn't. That's not how I want to live. That's not how civilized people want to live. Individual self-defense is a good thing. But it's no more a solution to violent neighborhoods than are trauma centers. There is something deeply wrong if you need to remember to grab your gun or mace to walk from your home to your grocery store. The gun doesn't fix that deeper problem.

:hippie:

[spin]

41. You may be fortunate in your current circumstances ...

But in the today's economic situation moving is not always an option. If you are underwater and owe far more on your home than it is worth and you have some equity in your home, moving may not be the best option.

You may even decide to move and have put your home up for sale but since it is so difficult to get a loan today, you may have few people who can qualify to buy your home.

You mention that carrying a firearm in a bad neighborhood will not solve the problems in a bad neighborhood. I agree. Those who have concealed carry permits are not necessarily cops, social workers or elected politicians. They are usually just honest citizens who wish to have a means to protect themselves in case they are attacked by someone who intends to seriously harm or kill them.

They may vote for representatives who they believe will do their best to solve the problems in the city and neighborhood where they live. Those who have carry permits may attend local meetings and do their best to talk to their representatives to improve their communities and they may or may not have success. They may even run for office and if they win they may do everything they can to reduce crime in their neighborhood and their city. Perhaps they will create or join in a neighborhood watch program.

But they may find that all their efforts have not eliminated the chance that they may be a victim of a predator who intends to seriously injure or kill them. While that it is true that using a firearm for legitimate self defense does not correct the problems that lead to crime in a neighborhood or a city, it MAY save the gun owner from severe injury or death.

I lived in a moderately dangerous area of Tampa Florida for many years. When I originally bought my home it was in a very peaceful and safe area, but over 30 years my neighborhood changed for the worst. My house was paid off but was not worth enough to pay for a home in a much nicer area. I planned to retire and move, which I did. I now live in a far smaller town with fewer problems but it is still not a crime free paradise.

I still have a concealed carry permit and I carry. Perhaps that's because it became a habit when I lived in Tampa or more likely it is because I realize that you can live in one of the safest areas of our nation and you can still end up as a victim of an attack. The chances of being attacked are low even in the bad neighborhoods as long as you use commonsense and practice situational awareness but there is always a chance that you will find a need for a weapon to defend yourself. In better neighborhoods the chances of having to use a weapon for self defense are even lower but crime can occur no matter where you live.

No, having a concealed weapons permit and carrying a weapon will not solve the problems in any neighborhood. I don't carry my weapon to curtail crime or to eliminate all the social problems in the area I live. I carry it in case I have a legitimate reason to use it to save myself or possibly another individual from suffering serious injury or death from an attacker. I am not a cop, a vigilante, a social worker, a priest, a politician or a saint. I am merely an honest citizen who wants a fair chance to survive if I am attacked by a criminal.

[gejohnston]

42. I don't think anyone disagrees

that guns don't fix the deeper problems. To fix the deeper problems, we have to start deprogramming those brainwashed by the Koch money machine and start rebuilding the cities, public school system, ending the war on drugs, dismantle MIC and empire and put the money to better use like universal health care and post secondary education for those who want it.