Cops Plagued By Exploding Glocks

[MrBenchley]

"After two .45-caliber Glock Model 21 firearms exploded in the hands of two Portland police officers during training this month, Police Chief Derrick Foxworth this week ordered a recall of the weapons carried by 230 Portland officers.
Because the .45-caliber Glock is popular among law enforcement, the Portland police training officers sent a teletype to agencies nationwide. They heard back from several, including agencies in Florida and Texas, that had similar problems. "
The training staff withdrew the practice ammunition, but further study revealed more serious problems. A records check also showed a similar event occurred in 1997. "

http://www.oregonlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/1079183259140830.xml?oregonian?lcps

Worth noting that there are no consumer product safety standards for guns whatsoever.

[demsrule4life]

1. Were they using ammo loaded with

taggant laden european gun powder?

[StClone]

2. Imagine that

A European gun with Euro ammo exploding! Damn Socialists.

[MrBenchley]

3. Nope, just crappy guns manufactured irresponsibly

[demsrule4life]

4. How do you know that?

How do you know it wasent the police depts fault? Were they using reloaded ammo that was not loaded within specs? If the Glock is such crap then why is the police dept going to keep it but in a smaller caliber?

edited to add

"rupturing of the barrel, bulging of the slide" classic signs of an ammo problem.

[CO Liberal]

5. Are They DESIGNED To Explode???

SOunds like faulty merchandist to me. Especially when other police dept's have had similar experiences.

[DoNotRefill]

20. So, when you buy a car....

that runs on gasoline, fill the tank with kerosene, and it breaks, it's a manufacturing flaw? And here I thought it was a sign of operator stupidity....

Don't want your glock to explode? Use ammo made to SAAMI specs, and it will not happen.

[FatSlob]

34. GLOCKS are designed with

polygonal rifling. This type of rifling is more accurate, but precludes the use of lead bullets. Bullets must be of a jacketed variety. Most cases of Glocks failing happen when lead bullets are fired. Glock is very specific in their manual that lead not be fired.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

8. Name removed?

WTF?

:shrug:

Unlike many firearms, the Glock has no exterior safety device that must be moved to fire the gun, Pearlson conceded. All three safety devices can be deactivated simply by pulling the trigger.

I guess Mr. Pearlson has never heard of a type of handgun called a "revolver". So much for his credibility in the "Gun Porn Factoid Department".

And he has ties to neoNazi scumbag Jorg Haider...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4126258-103680,00.html

LOL - And that great supporter of gay rights, Pope John Paul II.

[slackmaster]

7. No consumer product safety standards?

Horsecrap.

The firearms industry has done an exemplary job of self-policing. There may be no official govermnemt-issued safety standards, but all US firearms manufacturers voluntarily comply with over 700 standards published by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute, Inc. or SAAMI.

http://saami.org/

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

9. Were the cops using lead bullets or reloads in a stock Glock barrel?

If so, that is likely your culprit. Glocks are not and never were designed for reloaded ammunition. They were disigned for police/military agencies who normally use factory ammunition. The problem with reloaded ammunition is twofold:

1. Chambers on Glocks are oversized and unsupported in the 6 o'clock position. This lends itself to enhanced reliability but does stress the brass of the cartridge casing more than a tighter, fully supported chamber.

2. Lead build-up on the polygonally rifled Glock happens right at the lead, just ahead of the bullet as it sits in the chamber. What happens is as lead builds up in the lead of the bore, more and more pressure is required to push the bullet over this "hump" and down the barrel. Sooner or later the pressure will spike and cause a case rupture in the formerly mentioned 6 o'clock position. Hot gasses under tremendous pressure are vented through this rupture.

I've had a case rupture in a Glock 22 (.40 S&W). It ruptured at the unsupported area of the chamber and cased a complete case-head separation. No real injury to me other than a few powder burns. The cuplrit was a fatigued brass casing that had been loaded too many times. Weren't my loads nor my gun, I just happened to be the one shooting it at the time.

The Glock works as it was intended, shooters who do not heed the manufacturer's advice run the risk of a case failure. This is a well-known issue with Glocks, known as a KB (kaboom).

[slackmaster]

10. Glock instruction manual clearly specifies jacketed ammo only

I wouldn't be surprised if they were using cheaper bare lead cast bullets.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

11. My Glock doesn't see lead bullets

And will not unless I replace the barrel with a fully supported and conventionally rifled barrel.

[NorthernSpy]

12. aren't Glocks supposed to be good quality, though?...

I was reading about Glocks*, and most people seem to think quite highly of them. Even so, any product can have manufacturing flaws. It'll be interesting to see what Glock has to say about this.

The article said that the police will be switching to 9mms. If this is all just an ammo problem, as some posters have suggested, won't the 9mm guns just explode too?


Mary


*My father wants me to have a handgun, hence the research. Too bad Consumer Reports does not seem to review firearms. At least I do know to avoid "Ring of Fire" like the plague -- they were on Frontline.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

13. They are great quality

But every gun manufacturer warns against shooting reloads. The quality of reloaded ammunition is beyond the control of gun manufacturers. Joe Schmo reloader can absent mindedly load the wrong powder in a case and blow up his gun. All it takes is a little absent mindedness. That being said...

Improperly reloaded ammunition is usually the culprit in all kabooms, not just Glocks. The explosions mentioned in the article could have happened from an obstructed barrel due to a squib load -- a round that doesn't have enough gunpowder to push the bullet out of the barrel. If the shooter racks the slide, chambers another round and fires, the bullet being fired runs into the bullet already in the barrel. Now the 21,000 PSI explosion the gun is meant to contain long enough to get one bullet out of the barrel must now push two bullets out of the barrel. This 'pressure spike' can cause dramitic failures of a firearm. This is certainly something the gun was never intended to do. The .45 ACP caliber of the guns in question is among the more popular pistol calibers to reload as factory ammunition can be relatively expensive compared to 9mm.

9mm on the other hand, is cheap. If I spent several hours loading up 1,000 reloaded rounds of 9mm, I would save ~$20. I'd rather spend the money on factory ammo and not waste my time. I doubt there are tons of reloaders rushing to spend several hours of their time to save a few bucks, unless it is specialty ammunition.

I'll check on the chamber support of Glock 9mm's, but I would assume they are also oversized and unsupported to enhance functionality as well. It could also have something to do with the small size of the 9mm case having a smaller area unsupported.

[MrBenchley]

14. Except for blowing up and going off unexpectedly

other than that, they're swell...

[Columbia]

15. Some corrections

Mis-statement #1 - "blowing up"

As previously cited, the cause of this was use of ammunition outside of design parameters.

Mis-statement #2 - "going off unexpectedly"

Poor trigger discipline is the cause of negligent discharges. If the trigger is pulled, the gun fires as designed.

Fact #1 - "they're swell"

I agree, Glocks are well made firearms. I personally don't own one because I dislike the "sproingyness" of the trigger, but to each his own.

[MrBenchley]

17. And except for sinking, the Titanic was swell...

But hey, let's have safety regulations to make sure....

[slackmaster]

22. There you go again

The sinking of the Titanic was caused by operator error, not bad design.

Of course there were not enough lifeboats for everyone on board. That could be considered a design problem.

[CO Liberal]

19. From the Referenced Article

After the second explosion three days later, the bureau's training division did further analysis and determined the explosions may have been caused by a defect in the weapon or a design problem.

Not an ammo problem - a defect or a design problem.


"An examination of the two guns revealed rupturing of the barrel, bulging of the slide, and the destruction of the trigger bag, magazine release mechanism, magazine and receiver," the chief's memo said.

In each case, the bullet failed to feed into the weapon's barrel, and the primer ignited, causing an explosion that blew out the magazine seated into the weapon, police said.

"...the bullet failed to feed into the weapon's barrel..." Sounds like a defect to me.


"The design of the 9mm Glock is different and would eliminate the possibility of this happening," said training Lt. John Tellis. "That's why in our opinion, the 9 mm is the safer gun."

Why is the design different? Did Glock have problems with the other dsign????

[MrBenchley]

21. Since there's no regulations

there's no way to tell how many Glocks have a flawed design...

[slackmaster]

23. The 99.999% of Glocks that have never blown up

Are plenty of evidence of good design.

[CO Liberal]

25. Tell That To The Cops...

...who had the Glocks explode in their hands.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

26. May have been caused by a defect in the weapon?

So was it or wasn't it?

Not an ammo problem - a defect or a design problem.

Insufficient evidence.

...rupturing of the barrel, bulging of the slide, and the destruction of the trigger bag, magazine release mechanism, magazine and receiver...In each case, the bullet failed to feed into the weapon's barrel, and the primer ignited, causing an explosion that blew out the magazine seated into the weapon, police said.


So are they trying to say the weapons fired out of battery (fired with the cartridge only partially chambered)? I'll check my Glock 20 when I get home, but I don't think it is possible for a Glock to fire out of battery. Furthermore, it is hard to believe that if the weapon did fire out of battery that the barrel would be ruptured and the slide bulged. A little brass case a few thousands of an inch thick hanging partway out of the chamber would have to pretty strong to cause a barrel to rupture. What sounds much more likely is that the weapon fired fully in battery with an obstruction in the barrel. A barrel obstruction or a round overcharged with powder are about the only ways to rupture a barrel, not firing out of battery.

"The design of the 9mm Glock is different and would eliminate the possibility of this happening," said training Lt. John Tellis. "That's why in our opinion, the 9 mm is the safer gun."

I'll check the chamber support and rifling type of the 9mm, but I doubt it is a significantly design, other than the Glock 21 .45 ACP being larger and beefier than the Glock 17/19 9mm's.

[slackmaster]

27. Consider the source

That theory comes from the very people who presumably would have been responsible for selecting the type of ammunition used in training. They have an axe to grind. If the ammo was out of spec for the pistols they may have some liability for injuries caused by the KBs.

I know all the technical crap about bullet types and pressure specs is just "gun porn details" to some, but that's likely to be the crux of Glock's defense in any civil case that arises from these incidents.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

28. My Glock 20

will drop the striker with the barrel unlocked the first 1/4 of its travel. Beyond that, it will not fire. This might be sufficient to rupture a case due to early extraction, which would tear up the magazine, mag catch, slide release, etc. Kind of hard to imagine a scenario that might cause the action to not lock up the last 1/4 of its travel where the mechanical leverage is the strongest. Worn out recoil spring maybe? Dirty chamber?

It doesn't explain a ruptured barrel or bulged slide. It would be helpful to know where the barrel ruptured, at the chamber or farther out?

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

16. C'mon Mr. B

violating firearms safety rules = unexpected discharge?

Finger on the trigger = emminent discharge. They don't fire by themselves.

[MrBenchley]

18. Too too funny...

[slackmaster]

24. There's nothing funny about a negligent discharge

Or a cop who hasn't learned how to handle a pistol safely.

Nothing funny at all.

[happyslug]

33. Some advice

Here some advice on buying any making any high price product (Be it a car, a Bicycle or a gun)

First buy a a version of the product you like. Perception is VERY important. How you perceive yourself will be reflected in what you buy. If you picture yourself as AJ Foyt, buying a Jeep is the wrong move (and the reverse, if you image yourself as a back woods woman, buying a Corvette would be a wrong move).

Please note this is even true if you look at the numbers and another item looks better. For example if you view yourself as AJ Foyt but you live in the middle of a swamp, a Jeep would make more sense, but your self-image as a race car driver would suffer. Similarly when buying a bicycle if you look at yourself as a female Lance Armstrong, you want a Road/Race bike, even if you live at the end of a dirt road where a Mountain bike would be better (and the Reverse is also true, if you look at yourself as a person at home in the woods, a Mountain bike is for you, even if you live in the middle of the city and will NEVER take the bike off a paved road).

I go into perception for Advertisers have been hitting you with ads for decades (i.e. since you were born) and no matter HOW strong you are in resisting those ads, some of those ads you have internalized. You have also internalized things form your family and friends (and these tend to be stronger than advertisement but are often used and reinforced by advertisers).

If you try to fight those internalized ads you will find yourself hating whatever you purchased. Go with what you want (and that includes not buying at all if that is your choice).

Second, make sure the product does what YOU want it to do. For example buying a car with a two inch ground clearance, while you are living in a swamp will not work (again assuming if you are a fast car bluff). Buying a "sporty" car with increase ground clearance would be a better fit (Or even a SUV designed more like a sports car than a Truck). The same if you live in the city but want a SUV, a large truck will be hard to park and use in the City (do to its size) but maybe you opt for a Small SUV (The Jeep Wrangler or the Metro Geo for example). You have your image of being an outdoors woman, but a small car for use in the city. People who want to look outdoorsy but live in the city often buy "Hybrid" bikes for this same reason, they want the larger tire size of a road bike, but the look of a Mountain Bike, thus the hybrid.

Third PLEASE YOURSELF. Do not try to please your father, your boyfriend etc, PLEASE YOURSELF. As my father said, "Please yourself, that is the only way you can make sure at least one person will be happy". Do not buy something because someone else say you should, buy it because YOU WANT TO DO IT.

[MrSandman]

29. Nothing from the CGI

http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/FA_Recalls%203.htm#GLOCK26/27

[MrBenchley]

30. Try to contain your surprise....

A gun manufacturer is not admitting there's a problem...

[MrSandman]

31. Three problems identified...

No bursting barrels. Yeah, I would be surprised if the mfg. did not admit a problem. It is called criminal negligience in these parts.

[happyslug]

32. In the late 1980s I read about Exploding 9mm Berettas

US Navy Seals had a number of Beretta explode on them, they blamed the gun. No one else had the problem, but a few years later the reason was found to be the Ammunition being used. The Navy seals had decided to go with 9mm ++ ammunition, ammunition designed for use in Sub-machines guns only. The excessive power of the ++ ammunition was the cause of the explosions NOT the Beretta.

This leads me to believe the reports of people using the wrong type of ammunition in the 45 Glocks. I knew a Major who re-loaded 45 ammunition because it was so expensive. I suspect people did the same with the ammunition for the Glocks (i.e. re-loaded ammunition so they could shoot more). Another case of a Police Force trying to cut costs the wrong way i.e. NOT spending enough money to buy the right ammunition needed for training, which leads to re-loading OR not shooting. With the 45 caliber Glocks both have to be avoided, but there was NO Cheap way to do so.

[MrSandman]

35. The CGI colluding with the...

Corrupt Ammo Industry