It's time to crack down on those dangerous arms dealers and (potentially) criminal gun owners

[TPaine7]

Reporting from Washington— Firearms from the ATF's Operation Fast and Furious weapons trafficking investigation turned up at the scenes of at least 11 violent crimes in the U.S., as well as at a Border Patrol agent's slaying in southern Arizona last year, the Justice Department has acknowledged to Congress.

The department did not provide details about the crimes. But The Times has learned that they occurred in several Arizona cities, including Phoenix, where Fast and Furious was managed, as well as in El Paso, where a total of 42 weapons from the operation were seized at two crime scenes.

The new numbers, which expand the scope of the danger the program posed to U.S. citizens over a 14-month period, are contained in a letter that Justice Department officials turned over to the Senate Judiciary Committee last month.

In the letter, obtained by The Times on Tuesday, Justice Department officials also reported that Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives officials advised them that the agency's acting director, Kenneth E. Melson, "likely became aware" of the operation as early as December 2009, a month after it began.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110817,0,7742514.story

It is vitally important to increase controls on arms dealers--who tried in vain to get the ATF to change course--and law abiding gun owners--who weren't involved at all. The ATF and Justice Department and whoever gave the orders, however, deserve our full support and respect.

After all, if your neighbor committed a serious crime, you would expect to be placed under police surveillance, right? And you wouldn't be surprised if your neighbor was deputized to serve on the surveillance team, would you?

[spin]

1. I wonder why the Justice Department does want to release any details about the crimes ...

This ATF FUBAR continues getting bigger and bigger day by day.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

10. To quote James Grady:

"Boy, what is it with you people? You think not getting caught in a lie is the same thing as telling the truth?"

GOFIGURE!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. I am surprised that Obama has not cleaned house in BATF and AG for this

Would give him some moral standing...his non-action is hurting him.

[biermeister]

3. well at least some of them were..........well promoted?

www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/16/promotions-of-fast-and-furious-officials-draw-texa/

I'm all for putting criminals in jail, let's start with the ones at the top

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. I am not sure it was criminal at first...though it was incredibly stupid

If got criminal it was when they went into cover up mode

[kelly1mm]

7. Silence is consent. nt

[iverglas]

13. like you say in your sig line you are ... I'm curious

Can you expand on that statement?

I could assume or guess or hypothesize a meaning, but I'd prefer not to.

Now, absent an answer, I might, and then take silence as consent ...

[kelly1mm]

14. The post I replied to referred to why the President has not come out

against the F&F program to, at least, get some moral points. My post (which, BTW I stole from one of the virtual post-it-notes across the top of the page) was trying to say that, either actually or by appearance, it seems the President is not going after the people he should in this matter. Additionally, executive branch agencies seem to be doing their best to try and cover this whole thing up and hope it goes away. Again, without the President weighing in (publicly) it looks like he is consenting to the spin.

What do you think of the President's handling of the matter?

[iverglas]

15. I don't have any opinion

There are things on which I don't have opinions, either because I don't have the information I need (either because it isn't available or because I have not sought it out) or because I don't particularly care (which might be a reason I haven't sought out information).

I'm often unwilling to lay heavy blame for bungling. Was a hospital bombed on purpose, out of gross negligence, or by someone's stupid mistake? Did US military personnel kill Canadian military personnel on purpose, out of drugged-up negligence, or by someone's stupid mistake? Did the ATF ...? Bungling may deserve opprobrium and stepped-up efforts to avert it, but it isn't always symptomatic of something deeply evil. It can occur even where there are the best and most honourable intentions; the intentions will not excuse the bungling or eliminate responsibility, but an act itself is not proof of evil intentions. And when judging people or their systems, intentions really do matter, since people aren't perfect when it comes to actions.

I don't know what the situation was in this case, and haven't felt like doing a doctoral thesis in the matter. I've simply observed what happens to cross my path. That hasn't been anywhere near enough to form a judgment of anyone involved, including Obama.

I've gathered that there is a raging war going on at this site (and I assume elsewhere) between people who are deeply disappointed with and angry at Obama and are vocal in their criticism and people (who may also be even as disappointed, or who may actually agree everything he has done in all respects) who maintain that assailing a Democratic president is not a smart thing to do. I don't know what I would do if I were a voter in the US. I did assess the current president, back during the primaries, as ... well, a year later, I said it here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=190&topic_id=30072&mesg_id=30089
Here we are, some time earlier, i.e. before the 2008 election:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3381031&mesg_id=3381696
I said I'd vote for him once he was nominated, if I had to choose, despite my assessment.

And yes, my assessment did include that he pandered and exhibited no firm convictions or clear policies or any reason to believe he had any. I would kinda suspect that may be a contributory factor in the situation under discussion here.


Oh, but what I meant to say ... in this forum, I don't always find that the criticism is coming from the direction I'm standing at.

[SteveM]

4. Some talk that the CIA was involved...

The narrative of some RW sources is that the Zetas gang was poised to enter a power-sharing agreement with the Mexican government. What to do? Gun-run to the Zetas' competition. As yet unconfirmed.

[spin]

6. With the history of the CIA, it wouldn't surprise me. (n/t)

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

9. Expecting the CIA of having made a mistake?

How could you sir? No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

8. With apologies to Mr. Duffy:

Always shall innocent blood be shed, and the guilt of the wicked shall flow like a river. The Three (ATF, FBI, CIA) shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of DUH.

[iverglas]

11. you seem to keep missing my gift to you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x447511#448831

[ileus]

12. Excellent post....keep hope alive