Ellisville Closes 'Open Carry' Loophole

[jpak]

http://ballwin-ellisville.patch.com/articles/ellisville-closes-open-carry-loophole

Up until Wednesday’s city council meeting at Ellisville City Hall, people in the city technically have been allowed to openly carry firearms.
That was the conclusion of Mayor Matt Pirrello and city council members, who agreed without dissent to revise a city ordinance that originally was meant to allow people in Ellisville to carry concealed firearms only.

When the original ordinance was approved several years ago, however, the council inadvertently made Ellisville an “open carry” city thus allowing non-concealed weapons as well, City Attorney Paul Martin said.

“So it was never intended to be that way, but that changed the ordinance, unintentionally, and I’m going to say arguably, permitting open carry in the city.”

An online legal dictionary says a firearm typically is not considered concealed if it is "wholly or substantially visible" either in a belt holster or in a case designed for carrying a firearm or other dangerous weapon.

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[Spoonman]

1. You must be searching with a fine tooth comb........

To find ANYTHING to support your agenda.

In your infantile orgasmic state you failed to realize they did not take away the right to carry concealed!!!!!!!!!!! LMFAO

Additionally:
Where the hell is Ellisville?
What state is it in?
Population of?

Who really gives a fuck!?

[Scout]

2. apparently you give a fuck, albeit a little one n/t

[Spoonman]

3. Nope, really don't give a shit what he posts, it's all crap,

I'm just demonstrating that fact for the whole world to see!

[Scout]

10. well, you aren't actually demonstrating any facts about the OP....

most people who don't give a crap about something simply ignore it and move on...

most people don't find it necessary to point at something and tell everyone "looky here, i don't care about this!"

:rofl:

[SteveM]

16. Scout is always interested in, you know, and... it's size, and all.nt

[dtexdem]

4. We have to start where we can in an attempted return to sanity.

No, these towns are not enough -- but they are a start.

[PavePusher]

6. "return to sanity"

What do you mean by that?

[Spoonman]

7. YOU ARE CORRECT!

We should allow concealed carry in EVERY city and state!

Just like they're doing in that little piss ant town!

[PavePusher]

20. 28.5 hours and no response.

I'll wait a little longer....

[TheWraith]

22. That's what the Women's Christian Temperence Union keeps telling themselves.

But meanwhile in the real world, 49 states allow concealed carry. As soon as Illinois' downstate Dems kick the ass of the upstate Dems, it will be 50. And that's not going away. Gun control had it's day, and failed almost as badly as prohibition.

[Atypical Liberal]

5. Works for me.

Concealed carry is just fine, and open carry causes more problems than it solves.

[PavePusher]

8. Sorry, open carry doesn't "cause" any problems.

The folks with easily offended senses of fashion and a dislike of personnal security are the ones who cuase any problems that occur.

[Atypical Liberal]

9. Yes, it does.

Sorry, open carry doesn't "cause" any problems. The folks with easily offended senses of fashion and a dislike of personnal security are the ones who cuase any problems that occur.

Yes, it does:

1) It eliminates the element of surprise for the carrier. While it may have a deterrent effect on possible assailants, it may also cause you to be targeted first.
2) It may provoke a escalating response from an assailant who feels he needs to demonstrate his lack of fear in the face of a weapon.
3) It will unnecessarily alarm the uneducated, which there will always be no lack of, causing diversion of police resources that could be better used elsewhere.

About the only advantages open carry provides are:

1) Possible speedier deployment of the firearm.
2) Possible deterrent effect on assailants looking for easy targets.

The advantages are outweighed by the disadvantages.

[PavePusher]

11. I don't think you can cite any significant empirical evidence for your first two objections...

but if you can, I'd be interested to see it.

As for your third, well, if we'd applied that criteria to all the Civil Rights we've worked for over the last 200+ years, we would have a very different society than we do today. Anyway, police have, for the most part, been educated on this, and if they want to waste their time harassing perfectly legal behavior, that's just proof that it needs to be done more often.

[NewMoonTherian]

12. I agree that it's tactically inferior to concealed carry.

But I don't think any of the disadvantages you listed are just cause to ban open carry. The default condition should be freedom, and shouldn't be changed unless the activity presents a demonstrable danger to public safety.

Note that I'm not jumping to the conclusion that you support a ban on open carry. I'm just nitpicking, I suppose.

[RSillsbee]

13. You sure do use the word "May" a lot

possibly because you have no evidence?

[GreenStormCloud]

15. Depends upon the situation.

In most cases I would CC, but there are sometimes special cases in which I would like to have OC as an option. Those special cases are ones in which I would want the deterrent effect.

[Hoyt]

18. Would you be willing to share those cases where open carry is preferable? And do you strap backup

to your lower leg, or elsewhere?

[PavePusher]

19. You again? I'm trying to remember why I decided to take you off ignore...

and can't think of a good reason.

There, fixed that.

Cheers!

[Hoyt]

24. You've claimed to put me on ignore ten times -- yet you are always posting some gunner BS to me. Ha

[GreenStormCloud]

21. I will give one example.

Sometimes I have to use a certain walk-up ATM at night. That is when I would like to be able to get out of my car with my shirt tucked behind my gun so that the gun is visible. After using the ATM and getting in the car I would flip the shirt back to covering the gun. It would let any potential robber know that robbing me would be dangerous for him.

Since OC is illegal in Texas, when I use that ATM at night I keep one hand in my pocket gripping my .38 S&W642, and conduct my business one-handed, while constantly looking around me for suspicious persons.

I carry two guns. Revolver in right trousers pocket, .380 semi-auto in a waistband holster a bit to the left of my belt buckle.

For about the first 60 years of my life I was not able to legally be armed, so I wasn't. I am happier being armed.

[Hoyt]

23. Yea, so a robber knows you have a gun -- solution for robber is to just shoot you.

I use ATMs all the time at night -- so far no issue. Of course I look around first, therefore no gun necessary.

Try it.

[gejohnston]

25. I don't use ATMs at all if I can help it

I try to get cash back at the store when I am buying something any way. It has nothing to do with some guy jumping me. Has everything to do with not being ripped off on the ATM charge by the ATM owner. My credit union is 30 miles away.

[GreenStormCloud]

38. In those cases I am using my bank's ATM to deposit a check. N/T

[X_Digger]

26. Occam's razor..

Which is simpler, and therefore more likely?

Robber shoots someone, risking discovery and all that entails, or.. robber waits for the next customer, who doesn't appear to be armed.

:shrug:

[Hoyt]

30. So ATM robbers are not intent on shooting anyone -- yet you guys are ready to blast away anyway.

[X_Digger]

32. Robbers are intent on... robbing people. Fucking duh.

They use force (or the threat of) to accomplish it.

[GreenStormCloud]

41. ATM robbers are intent on threatening my life as a method of robbing me.

And ATM robbers often assault the person they rob, just like other muggers do. Yes, I am ready to shoot anyone who threatens my life or assaults me.

[RSillsbee]

27. Key words being "So far" NT

[Hoyt]

29. I figured some gunner who believes there is a mugger behind every tree would post that.

[RSillsbee]

35. Or a "gunner" who, AS YOU ALREADY KNOW, has found his mugger NT

[friendly_iconoclast]

36. It hasn't happened to him, therfore it *won't* happen to him.

Such 'logic' is rare, fortunately...

[RSillsbee]

39. It hasn't happened to him

and he doesn't give a fuck if it happens to you. I think

[GreenStormCloud]

37. You don't seem to understand much about street crime.

An ATM robber wants easy money. He doesn't want to take on a person that is a high risk to the robber. His solution to the problem will be to wait for another person.

[oneshooter]

40. He does'nt seem to understand much of anything dealing with adult life. n/t

[rl6214]

42. Right, never happens

This one happened at an ATM I use often as I belong to this credit union

http://www.correctionsone.com/capital-punishment/articles/2051951-Texas-executes-man-who-killed-high-school-student/

HUNTSVILLE, Texas — A Texas inmate convicted offatally shooting an El Paso high school senior after robbing and sexually assaulting her was executed Thursday evening in the nation's busiest death penalty state.

William Josef Berkley was condemned to death for the March 2000 slaying of 18-year-old Sophia Martinez, whose body was found in the desert outside El Paso after being robbed at a drive-through ATM. She had been shot in the head five times and there was evidence she'd been raped.

[gravity556]

34. Got any empirical data on

your negative 1 and 2? Why would a criminal, who wants the most gain for the least effort, let himself get charged with murder as well as armed robbery IF he manages to kill the open carrier. If he doesn't manage to do so in the first few shots, he is now facing someone who is shooting back. Quite possibly even doing so accurately enough to fatally wound you. So now, rather than crashing into a room with nobody who was obviously armed, robbing it without having to fire his weapon, thereby netting maximum gain for minimal effort/risk, but you decided to chance death, dismemberment, life without parole, or depending on how good the prosecutor is, the death penalty.

So while I see the lack of stealth, problematic, rest assured that I think the deterrent factor as being grossly under-rated.
And I don't think I've ever once heard of an open carrier who got taken out in a robbery.

As for police being spread thin by "man with a gun" calls, run a campaign for 2 months-radio, billboards, TV ads, news stories, all kinds of shit, You explain the difference between legal open carrying and "brandishing" Make a distinction between handguns and riflles. You also inform the public that calling to report an open carrier as someone brandishing will be charged with filing a false police report and abuse of the 911 system. Just like if you call 400 times to report that "vicious mutt" next door.

[ileus]

14. It only causes problems in peoples minds...

[SteveM]

17. And loopholes used to be in planks surrounding Double-A baseball parks...

Not much here. Sounds more like a poorly drawn up law to me.

So folks can carry-concealed in Ellisville, no?

[Kennah]

28. Ellisville is in Missouri, so one presumes concealed carry is still legal there

[X_Digger]

31. Yup, has no impact on CC.. the funny thing is this will prolly result in more CC. n/t

[DU GrovelBot]

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