Man killed during robbery attempt in Bramwell WV...

[ileus]

http://bdtonline.com/local/x1592796705/MORNING-UPDATE-Man-killed-during-robbery-attempt-in-Bramwell

Town next door to my hospital.

To shoot or not to shoot that was the question...


http://bdtonline.com/local/x531751638/Woman-arrested-in-connection-with-convenience-store-robbery

Dang dave you dropped the money, I may as well pick it up and go home.

[SteveM]

1. Pretty sad, but that's da thug life...

The only good which may come out of this would be the wide-spread reporting of how violent criminals were thwarted -- once again -- by an armed citizenry. I think it is only through changing perceptions, on the part of the criminal element, of how dangerous it is to engage in risky behavior, that we'll ever confirm that citizens carrying weapons has a deterrent effect on those criminals.

[GreenStormCloud]

2. Multiple shots.

Sounds like he kept shooting until the threat was neutralized.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. I'll admit I've changed my views on gun ownership (I'm against gun control now)

but stories like this still sadden me.

Thug or not, dead or alive, it's still a human life wasted. That a criminal was killed before he could turn his life around is no cause for celebration for me.

Yeah, I'm still a softy.

[ileus]

4. Drugs here in my area are putting the hurt on lots of people.

I'm not talking about Pot, RX and meth are the leading drugs of choice around here. Look at the females picture, I can't go by 25 people here in our part of WV and Va without seeing someone in the exact same condition.

[backwoodsbob]

6. didn't hear about that one

I probably spent half my teen years in Coopers W.V. at my grandmothers....about a two minute walk on the tracks from Bramwell

[virginia mountainman]

7. Carefull on that big bridge.... Not to mention the loooooooooooong,

Dark tunnel...

[backwoodsbob]

14. that bridge didn't bother me

what bothered me was that wooden walking bridge across the river that looked like it was built pre revolution

[virginia mountainman]

9. No problem with being a softy..

It makes people nice!

It is sad, that some people, for what ever reason, are very willing to end our lives or BLUFF and THREATEN to end our lives over a few bucks, and forces us to "reassess" our actions.

[spin]

12. I don't celebrate the death of a person who misuses a firearm in a criminal manner ...

It is a tragedy and quite possibly an example of how our society is failing.

I do celebrate the survival of a person who is threatened by an attacker whether or not he/she used a firearm. I feel sorrow for the family of the attacker but glad for the family of the person who was attacked.

One thing that people who legally carry a firearm for self defense need to understand is that if you ever use your firearm to injure or kill an attacker, you may suffer significant psychological damage even if you were totally justified. Using your concealed handgun should be the last thing you ever hope to do.

However, it is probably better to be alive and have to deal with your feelings than to be six feet under.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

13. I know that's how you guys feel

And it's what makes you good people.

I don't blame the would-be victim. I'm glad they're safe.

[iverglas]

18. I'm afraid you don't know Jack

Is it okay if I call you Jack?

spin is one of the few who doesn't do a victory dance and smear his face in the blood when the news arrives in the forum of another dead bad guy.

You need to be doing some homework here, young lady.

[Kurmudgeon]

5. Not a gun owner, but most of my neighbors are.

You have to go to one of the bigger cities in WV before you worry much about house invasion or similar crime.

[virginia mountainman]

10. You got that right..

And the bad guys also know that once the "trouble starts" the family, friends, and neighbors, all heavily armed, and looking for action, will show up long before ANY police will...And when the Police DO show up, they have a high likely hood of being "family, or a friend" of the victim, and things can get even grimmer for the perpetrator.

This is a key reason why property crime when no one is home, is way more common than violent crime in Appalachia. In some of these regions, "He had it coming" is almost a legal defense.

[virginia mountainman]

8. I know right where the "pop shop" is, been in their a few times!

And someone wielding a shotgun, is most decidedly a deadly threat..

I live about an hour and half from there... Actually, I live just a few miles off of US 52 down in VA..

[ileus]

11. I live exactly 2 miles off 52

[iverglas]

15. one is left to wonder

since there's nothing else one can do.

A McDowell County man who attempted to rob a Bramwell convenience store died early this morning after a customer in the store shot him multiple times.

A cop is under a duty -- a DUTY -- not to use excessive force.

A cop who shoots anyone in any way is subject to a review procedure.

A copy who shoots someone "multiple times" is going to have to establish that it was necessary to do so. This will be of particular concern if it is determined that the first or second shot, say, would not have been fatal.

Joe CCW Customer?

Nope. No duty whatsoever. Shoot as long and as hard as you like. It will be "justified".

Well, as long as you don't go away, come back, reload, and shoot them a few times in the head just for good measure. That might just take you beyond the pale.

Otherwise, it's you good guy, him bad guy, you cool.

Public oversight. It's what gun toters never have to worry about.

[X_Digger]

16. I'm curious..

If the customer had picked up a blunt object and brained the robber until he was down and the robber subsequently died, would you also be bemoaning the lack of public oversight?

Is it the means of self-defense that triggers this? Is it just the fact that someone defended themselves at all using force?

[iverglas]

17. 'tain't me with the gun fetish

Someone seems to have mislaid the post, but just this afternoon I very pointedly added "or beaten or stabbed to death" in a reference to killing someone in self-defence, or otherwise, or whatever. Precisely because the issue is and always has been the use of force, not the means of the assault.

You'll also notice that I referred to the use of force by police being subject to review/oversight, not to the use of bullets.

But here's the thing, y'know? Can you point me to a tale of a third party stabbing somebody to stop a hold-up? Coshing somebody over the head with a blunt object, maybe; so maybe you do have examples.

And yup, the same kind of determination would need to be made there.

But here's the thing, y'know? To stab somebody, you have to get in real close, generally speaking, unless you can kinda sneak up behind the robber with the shotgun like. Even to cosh somebody, unless you have a strong arm and good aim and can lob something heavy and hit your target, you need to be pretty close.

People don't tend to get that close to somebody with a weapon, in particular, unless it's necessary. So there's a bit of a prima facie case for a reasonable belief it was necessary to use the force, assuming that the other circumstances can be proved, e.g. that the person stabbed/coshed was trying to rob somebody, and then we're down to the reasonableness of the force used, indeed.

Now it's possible that somebody would stab or cosh a person repeatedly in that situation. But it's just kinda less likely. Not a lot of people go into a frenzy of stabbing or coshing when they're trying to stop a crime, I would think. It would just be, kinda, unusual to do that.

But then we have guy with gun, standing at a nice safe distance, wanting to be the good Samaritan and stop the bad guy. One shot is good, 6 shots is better, no? No risk to guy with gun. Once you've got the first one off, even if the robber doesn't go down, you've likely got the upper hand. Just keep shooting. Don't take on any risk to yourself by doing anything else likely to stop the robber, as one would have to do if one were armed with a large object or a knife. Just stand there and keep shooting.

And because the first shot was "justified", well who is going to argue about the others?? Guy with gun is a hero. Second-guessing him would be rude. Imagine trying to get a jury to do that.

This is not the case for a cop. A cop's actions are subject to real review, according to actual known standards that cops are required to meet. Whether the cop was using a gun, a knife, a brick or a boot.

I hope that helps.


Is it the means of self-defense that triggers this? Is it just the fact that someone defended themselves at all using force?

Or is it cabbage?!?!?

Cabbage, I say.

[X_Digger]

19. "so maybe you do have examples." -- I'll just leave this here..

Now it's possible that somebody would stab or cosh a person repeatedly in that situation. But it's just kinda less likely. Not a lot of people go into a frenzy of stabbing or coshing when they're trying to stop a crime, I would think. It would just be, kinda, unusual to do that.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/316824/
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=079_1234476546
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE94tR-xCC0
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b75_1212618557
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c7a_1203462380
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e3d_1229661352
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=597_1193209999
http://www.forbezdvd.com/cod.php?v=MTQzMTE

And just for the funny.. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4198944/75_year_old_woman_beats_up_robber_video/

Search google video for 'clerk beats robber'.

But then we have guy with gun, standing at a nice safe distance, wanting to be the good Samaritan and stop the bad guy. One shot is good, 6 shots is better, no? No risk to guy with gun. Once you've got the first one off, even if the robber doesn't go down, you've likely got the upper hand. Just keep shooting. Don't take on any risk to yourself by doing anything else likely to stop the robber, as one would have to do if one were armed with a large object or a knife. Just stand there and keep shooting.

Yeah.. 'nice safe distance'..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soZT__WQKsM&feature=related
http://www.wesh.com/r-video/18423748/detail.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1zZGe3f0mc
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fda_1231374666
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDs-yGTdPFo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCGSV1enO6k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk&NR=1

Gunfights are messy. Only occasionally does one shot drop someone like a sack of potatoes.

You watch too much tv if you think that's how it works.