(liberal) MommaPolitico's shooting range impressions

[Xela]

"...why I went incognito to a local rifle range today!"

http://www.mommapolitico.com/2010/08/didja-hear-one-about-liberal-who-walks.html

Xela

[Bonhomme Richard]

1. I saw in the comment a guy had a Armed Liberal bumper sticker.

Have to get me one of those.

[Xela]

2. Side tracked...

Well, perhaps getting a little side tracked, but...

Check them out when you have a chance:
http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/

Xela

[Union Scribe]

11. Cool, thanks for that link. nt

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

34. I read the LGC topic link. What ethno centrism/bigotry are you referring to?

:shrug:

[iverglas]

37. I suspect I am the person being addressed

But if so, I have no idea what the question is about now, do I?

No, wait, I remember.

It was a coment ABOUT ANOTHER FUCKING WEBSITE WHICH IS NOT PROTECTED FROM COMMENT AT THIS WEBSITE

so I am going to say it again and fuck anybody who doesn't like it.

I am sick to death of this bullshit.

This is a thread on the discussion forum of that "liberal" website. (Now, it's possible that the Liberal Gun Club is what it says it is and its discussion forum is just inhabited by assholes. I wouldn't know.)

http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9351

Post subject: Britian: Children should not watch shooting sports
(Yes, that's how it's spelled there)

Comments start with "ridiculous" and "pathetic".

Then we get to:

Their goal is to disarm the public. The well being of the people has nothing to do with it; I wish they'd just be honest about it.

In Britain, you have to be licensed to own a Paintball gun. Pussies.

The first comment is standard ignorant assholery, but directed specifically at a foreign country.

As for the second comment, well just imagine someone insulting USAmericans AS A GROUP that way here at DU, or what our Guns forum denizens would think of somebody doing it at a British website, for instance.

It is bigotry and ethnocentricity, and I can say that here if I fucking well want because I am talking about strangers to this website writing at some unrelated forum on the internet. Unless somebody wants to start deleting posts saying uncomplimentary things about Free Republic?

A very quick perusal of the "Firearms in the News" forum at that site shows that the congregation is no more "liberal" than ... well, complete that sentence for yourself.


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[Nuclear Unicorn]

68. Yes, you are free to say it and I would never claim otherwise

but identifying a group by the policies of its government is not bigotry or ethno-centrism, it's linguisitic short-hand.

By way of analogy: I'm pretty sure many in the Middle East claim "the Americans" are waging war on Iraq even though a sizeable contingent of Americans, myself included, disapprove of that war. That isn't bigotry or ethno-centrism on the part of Middle Easterners. At worse I don't believe it goes any further than broad-brushism, if I may be permitted such a term, and while it may be unfair to those of us who only want peace it is excusable.

I'm reluctant to lay the blame of all things at the feet of bigotry/ethno-centrism/racism. It has become Godwin's Law v2.0 in some regards and as such it seems, to me anyway, to diminish the injustice of genuine bigotry just as incessant Nazi references diminish the horror the Nazis inflicted in real life.

Sometimes the most genuine thing is the disagreement itself, and that's OK.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spin]

3. No surprise that she and her family had a good time ...

target shooting is fun!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

4. I've only been shooting twice my entire life which I chronicled at this very forum.

It's not my thing but I still very much enjoyed my time with my peeps.

[DonP]

18. Interesting that she had so many stereotypes in mind to start

It's always funny that some progressives, that otherwise hate the use of stereotypes on any group, have no problem painting gun owners and sport shooters with a very broad brush.

She had everything in there but an "I guess I may have been wrong about them" statement. The comments were as interesting as the article in their own way.

[spin]

26. That's a very good point. (n/t)

[Nuclear Unicorn]

35. I kind of had them as well, and truth be told some "gun enthusiatsts"

on the RW side have kind of earned those stereotypes.

But even the annoying ones weren't threatening, merely annoying.

[iverglas]

43. and yet her basic "stereotype" was bang on

They were as right-wing as right-wing can be.


typo fixed

[Francis Marion]

109. Textual evidence?

When did the John Birchers emerge from the target shack, again?

Of course, if one were to shift uneasily in one's jackboots as one voter plainly suggests to another voter to withold ballot support for lawmakers who oppose gun rights- then perhaps the jackboot fits that opponent of Liberty after all?

[WAFS]

45. Excellent post.

I too have been guilty of stereotyping people, but I have made the decision to try to stop doing that. It's one of the reasons I have stopped using phrases like "right wing nut jobs" and "tea baggers." While I disagree with many, if not most, positions and policies of the far right crowd now making a nuisance of itself I also realize that individuals are not the same thing as the group.

[mommapolitico]

50. Thanks from Momma Politico

Thanks for the insightful comments. I was surprised to find few of what the media portrays as the stereotypes of gun enthusiasts at the range. I still go shooting with my friends and family about once a month. Needless to say, in regrds to the person who posted above about the stereotypes I hold, in the post most of the ones I mention holding are, in reality, simply hyperbole - meant to make the story more interesting and are used for dramatic effect. I am sure that there are many bleeding-heart liberal stereotypes as well.
I thank you all for taking the time to read my post. Hope you'll come back for other stories soon!

[iverglas]

62. what media are these?

I was surprised to find few of what the media portrays as the stereotypes of gun enthusiasts at the range.

You aren't just setting up a straw target there, are you? ;)

Some examples would be interesting.

I must apologise in advance if you reply and I am not around to read; another in the interminable round of ophfphffththalmologist appointments here ... thanking my stars for universal single public payer health insurance!

[mommapolitico]

118. Examples

Hi there, iverglas,
No worries if I don't receive a response - I know that life is about much more than a message board! Fair point. The mainstream media (and one particularly conservative channel-yes, I watch it for comic relief now and again) portray gun owners and those who believe in gun rights as extremists, folks who believe it's all or nothing, own anything you want, and if there is any regulation at all, it's the government coming after your guns. It's disturbing to me, because I don't believe now, nor did I when I wrote the post and visited the range for the first time, that all gun owners think like that. I have found many of the folks I have encountered here and at the range to be more than one-issue voters, if you will ( for example, you and health care-so glad you have it when you need it, friend!)
Hope that clears it up. Sadly, mainstream media paints gun rights as a black and white issue, with no gray for anyone to come to terms with. It's the kind of approach that is divisive and harms our public debate on the issues.
Please swing by the blog once in awhile - you may enjoy some of the posts I've done on health care and other topics. Thanks for the thoughtful and respectful comment 0 good luck with the eye doc! :)

[iverglas]

140. sorry ...

The mainstream media (and one particularly conservative channel-yes, I watch it for comic relief now and again) portray gun owners and those who believe in gun rights as extremists, folks who believe it's all or nothing, own anything you want, and if there is any regulation at all, it's the government coming after your guns.

... but that's just another characterization by you.

Obviously, some gun owners do a very good job of portraying themselves as what you describe. Do mainstream media help them? Perhaps. I watch a fair bit of CNN and I have never seen anything like that.

I've never thought all gun owners think like that. In Canada, a majority support most of the gun control provisions we have.

I'm afraid that I'm still seeing you battling a straw person, seemingly not to dispel myths about gun owners, but to show how reasonable a liberal you are. That's what I see as divisive.

[DonP]

71. Interesting insight

Thank you for the interesting article and some insight into a progressive's evolving perception and enjoyment of firearms and firearm ownership. Putting them in the 10 ring or making that gong ring consistently is instant positive reinforcement, every bit as much as a good 250 yard golf drive or tennis ace.

FWIW, at the gun shows and ranges I attend there is a far more diverse crowd than you describe. But that may be attributable more to the more urban location I live near (Chicago - Northwest Indiana) than any major behavior element. But the only Nazi things I've ever seen at any show are uniforms and parts for WWII re-enactors, usually sold side by side in the booth with WWII GI issue uniforms.

Your comment on the 40 round magazine you were offered was a little confusing to some of us though, since there is nothing illegal about them in most states, unless you live in California or New Jersey.

I have no doubt more than a few of us will track your comments and note with interest your progress in the shooting sports and any comments that ensue. You are far from alone, as a progressive in that area. Stop back and please drop in from time to time on other conversations. If nothing else it's interesting to lurk and see how the different sides of the discussion express themselves.

[mommapolitico]

119. Many thanks!

Thanks for the generous invitation, Don. I appreciate it. Most folks here have been welcoming and respectful (there will always be a few crass folks that have difficulty expressing themselves in anything but profanity). Thanks again for the welcome.

[friendly_iconoclast]

5. Oh noes! She's letting the racist right wing determine her actions!

It's well known by all decent honest intelligent people that the racist misogynist right wing stage-manages this sort of thing in order to beguile women, especially women of color. You watch- in six months, she'll be a Bachmann volunteer!

(did I do it right?)

[X_Digger]

6. You forgot the 'to many', 'some people say', etc.. n/t

[Nuclear Unicorn]

8. every honest person acknowledges these black women are using racism

against blacks to make it easier to get concealed carry permits for blacks.

Or so I'm told.

[iverglas]

14. oh noes! Are you being conservative with the truth?1?!?

You mean she has now gone out and got herself a gun to take with her everywhere she goes???

'Cause, you know, the statement you're paraphrasing was made in relation to THAT, not target shooting.

You knew that, didn't you?

Oh yes you did.


It seems they failed to make a convert in that direction at all, actually:

But then, we didn't talk politics. The owner said to me later in the day, "Y'know, women are the future of our sport. They vote. And if they like to shoot, they won't vote for the ones who don't like guns." And with a wink, he was off to help the next newbie in our group. It wasn't the time or place, and I didn't have the heart to tell him that in my case, he was wrong. Gun laws are necessary. Criminals and gang members should not have access to guns. And there is no possible reason for someone to need an AK-47 to go hunting. (And then there's my feelings on hunting, but that's another post altogether.) I don't think folks should show up packing at protests, especially when idiots like Sharon Angle are encouraging using "the Second Amendment option" when elections don't go your way. Now, after our experiences, would I have a gun in my house? I've got a truckload of research on gun safety to do before that's ever gonna happen.

... We had a great time as a family. But do I think gun laws should be more lax? Definitely not. With existing laws, there were plenty of options today from which to choose. Not everyone that buys a gun is going to be as safety-conscious as our friends and range-folks were today. Not everyone stores their guns and ammo securely. And not everyone buys a gun to shoot targets. I'll never be a card-carrying member of the NRA, but I'll admit, my ideas of gun culture have changed, and it gives me a better understanding of why people fight to protect that right so vehemently. That's got to make for a better conversation.

(Speaking of links, and all, I do find it just lazy of people not to provide any content in a post that is about outside content.)

People fight to protect "that right" ... the right to shoot guns at targets?

:shrug:

I love incoherency being passed off as "liberal".

Well, I mean, "liberal" and "liberals" are generally incoherent anyhow, which is one reason Phil Ochs wasn't one and I'm not one.

So, are you a regular reader of Momma Politico, Xela old pal?



html fixed

[mommapolitico]

51. Sorry to disappoint, but, I Momma Politico, am still a liberal Dem.

Feel free to come by the blog if you;d like to discuss further. Seems silly to talk about me here...always open to discussion at mommapolitico.com - sure do appreciate all this free publicity, though!

[iverglas]

63. you are the hapless bystander in someone's effort to impugn me, I fear

I have asserted that an African-American woman who buys into the "racist roots of gun control" meme touted by the racist right wing and then goes out and gets herself a handgun to tote around with her is no some sort of assertive, self-actualized New Woman, she has been co-opted / has bought into the right-wing gun militant agenda.

It wasn't really about you. But some in this forum are not reluctant to exploit anyone and anything if it advances their agenda.

[mommapolitico]

120. Thanks for the clarification

Thanks, iverglas. Most people who have commented have been thoughtful. Guess we should keep our flak jackets on for stray fire, eh? No worries. Take care.

[SteveM]

7. Did she fear the response of conservatives or fellow liberals?...

I'm not sure where the range was (near D.C.?), but it strikes me she has a little self-induced paranoia if she is worried about conservative reaction. Perhaps it is her colleagues that really worries her.

Her reaction to the AK-47 is standard-issue controller sloganeering:

"And there is no possible reason for someone to need an AK-47 to go hunting. (And then there's my feelings on hunting, but that's another post altogether.)"

She doesn't realize that the AK-47 -- even in its standard caliber -- is suitable for deer-hunting (about the same ballistics as the old .30/30). And her reaction is ironic considering her family's favorite round was the .223. This, of course, is the standard round for the AR-15, one of those infamous assault weapons in the same family as the AK-47 she is worried about.

But getting out to the range is progress, and seems indicative of a thaw among some liberals who have toed a party-line about guns since the late 60s. She'll need to work on her apparent prohibitionist sentiment regarding hunting, as well.

[Xela]

10. Not for fear from fellow liberals

:)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x453136#453166

Xela

[mommapolitico]

54. Wow - that's a lot of opinion for someone who really doesn't know me at all!

Actually, I was at a gun show recently, with my Obama/Biden sticker on the car and my kids and husband along, and was verbally assaulted by a rabid gun owner re: my support of the Democratic Party. Horrible language in front of my kids, very abusive words toward me. That is the exact kind of reprisal I had been expecting.

Hope that satisfies your curiosity. If you really are interested in a civil discussion of the matter, rather than judging me on one of my three year's worth of blog posts, feel free to come by mommapolitico.com anytime.

[iverglas]

64. ah, so

As I said in post 43. ;)

[SteveM]

80. It was unclear from your writing who it was you were concerned about...

either "conservative" or "liberal." I have gotten my share of flak for posting this bumper sticker:

"Bitter, White, working class, gun-owner for OBAMA," complete with rising sun (?) motiff.

Reactions? "Some kind of gun nut," "Sounds racist to me" (evidently overlooking said motiff), and that ol' pop standard: "'You paranoid?" These comments came from the allegedly progressive side of things in Austin, TX, and all were in person. I expected these "reprisals" as well, so I wasn't paranoid.

Respectfully, you are over-reacting. My comments were not un-civil, and I am not judging you on any number of years of blog posts. I will take you up on your post. Which was a good one.

[mommapolitico]

121. Glad to hear you're a long-time follower, Steve

Hi Steve,
So glad to hear you've been a long-time follower. I hadn't expressed a desire to be cross-posted here at DU. But, boy, have I gotten more hits on the blog due to it! The more rabid folks seem to get over my assertions, the more hits my post (at least a year old) gets, and the more my blog moves up in the blogosphere. Kind of an ironic result for some of the folks who are literally cursing me here, don't you think?
Hope to see you 'round the blog. Have not checked the post in question because it's been busy, but will definitely respond to your respectful comments.

[Xela]

9. Oh my!!!!

Check out her comment at the bottom of this 05/28/2011 blog:

http://www.mommapolitico.com/2011/05/floods-rapture-guns-oh-yeah-maddow-on.html

Rachel Maddow, blah, blah, blah...

"And by the way, friend, if you happen to be the one who signed me up for my membership in the Liberal Gun Club as a prank, I just want to thank you - who knew??? Funny, and a practical gift, too! Going shooting this Sunday, matter of fact..."

Xela

[mommapolitico]

122. Come on back soon, y'hear?

Yes, I write my posts for my blog, and yes, I will continue to quote Rachel Maddow or anyone else I feel has something valid to say. You, too, may start a blog of your very own and quote those you enjoy! What an amazing world, eh, friend? The beauty of the blogosphere

Wow, you guys have given new life to so many to my old blog posts - many thanks for all the links to my posts! The traffic keeps increasing by the day! Love it!

[SteveM]

139. You, too!...

I read Rachel a lot, and agree with most of her stuff. She's a little off-base with her outlook on the Second, but she doesn't spend too much time on that (I think she knows all about the law of diminishing returns).

Hope your blog prospers. (Did you see that of the main categorized forums in DU, "Guns" is the second most posted?)

[dtexdem]

12. Nothing wrong with a liberal, or even a conservative, at a gun-shooting range.

What is wrong is concealed carry, especially in public venues like bars and sports stadiums.

[iverglas]

16. it's amazing how they can't tell the difference, isn't it?

Target shooting at a recreational facility ...

... carrying handguns around in public

I can see the difference with my eyes closed!

[spin]

28. But it is possible that target shooting can lead to getting a concealed carry permit ...

Many of the target shooters I know have carry permits.

It would have required a much bigger step for me to apply for a concealed weapons permit had I not had 20 years of target shooting in my background.

Of course, target shooting and defensive shooting are very different. Target shooting can provide a good foundation for defensive shooting, just as judo can provide some skills that you might use in jujitsu which could be called street fighting.

At the range, I practice both styles of shooting. I enjoy target shooting for the challenge and the sheer fun. I practice defensive shooting at much shorter ranges in case it is ever necessary to use my concealed firearm for legitimate self defense.

[iverglas]

30. yes, and drinking water can lead to vodka addiction

:eyes:


At the range, I practice both styles of shooting. I enjoy target shooting for the challenge and the sheer fun. I practice defensive shooting at much shorter ranges in case it is ever necessary to use my concealed firearm for legitimate self defense.

Yup, there ya go, two entirely different things.

Kind of like how baseball bats can be used for hitting baseballs or hitting heads. Most people who play baseball don't actually "graduate" to carrying baseball bats with them when they go shopping.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

69. Generally, if carrying CONCEALED, people can't tell the difference.

I suppose that's the point though.

[spin]

27. I see no problem with allowing a person with a CCW ...

to carry his concealed handgun in a bar as long as he is not drinking.

I fully support the idea of having a designated driver accompanying a person or a group of people who intend to go to a bar and drink enough that their driving may be inhibited. Drunken drivers pose a higher risk to society than a non drinking person with a legally concealed weapon who is sitting in a bar drinking Pepsi.

Most sporting events have armed security present and therefore are not "gun free" zones.

[melm00se]

112. many states, NC included,

I see no problem with allowing a person with a CCW ...

to carry his concealed handgun in a bar as long as he is not drinking.

Specifically prohibit carrying concealed "while consuming alcohol,or at any time while the permittee has remaining in his or her body, any alcohol, or a controlled substance previously consumed." (N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-415.11(c))

[oneshooter]

32. Bars and sports stadiums are illegal to enter with a Texas CHL.

So what were you worried about?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[WAFS]

46. How do you know if someone is carrying concealed?

I carry concealed but I don't drink. I also think carrying a gun and drinking is both stupid and should be illegal, just like driving a car after drinking is illegal. It's true that guns and alcohol don't mix, but most adults are capable of carrying a concealed firearm while in the presence of alcohol but not drinking.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

74. "How do you know if someone is carrying concealed?"

I'll take "Creative uses for firecrackers" for $500, Alex.

[ileus]

13. The family that shoots together stays together.

[Xela]

17. Some of her other gun related observations....

MommaPolitico at the gun show:
http://open.salon.com/blog/mommapolitico/2011/03/05/unions_unite_and_the_undercover_liberal_visits_the_gun_show

http://open.salon.com/blog/mommapolitico/2011/03/05/undercover_liberal_the_gun_show

And other observations:
http://www.mommapolitico.com/2011/01/crosshairs-and-second-amendment.html


Xela

[iverglas]

25. so let's have a look

the gun show one

As I am looking around, there are guns and gun parts as far as the eye can see. Rifles, pistols, guns from the 1800's until today, and, of course, more ammo. Oh, and toys. Yes, toys. Because, ladies and gentlemen, this is a family event. Bring little Johnny on down, in his head-to-toe camo, and show him what the Nazis used to wear. Buy him those clackers you had as a kid and a neat vintage lighter embellished with a "KKK Member In Good Standing" medallion (saw it with my own eyes. Swear to God.) ...

Speaking of the customers at the show, well, I don't ever remember being surrounded by so many white people in a looooong time. Everyone was white. There were five African-Americans, and a handful of Hispanic dealers. There were a few skinheads in the crowd: young white guys, shaved heads, wearing the "uniform" of the movement. ...

... These folks were well-versed in what they could and couldn't get away with, and exactly how they could skirt the existing laws. For a price, they were willing to tell you how to do it, too. Fascinating.

... Yes, you heard me right when I said that I was offered a 40-clip to go with the weapon above. There were clips available for any weapon. Entire tables of extended magazines were available. Buy-Sell-Trade booths had tables thirty-feet long absolutely covered with the types of extended magazines that allowed Rep. Gifford's shooter to continue firing into the crowd and kill/injure so many innocent people. Needless to say, the furor over the recent tragedy has not spurred our legislature to action. Is the NRA really that strong? That's downright terrifying.

... I didn't come across anyone who was willing to sell me a gun without a background check. ... Next time, I'll ask the guys walking around with the backpacks full of guns, with signs strapped to their backs advertising what they're selling, if a background check is necessary when I pay with cash. Next time, I'll strike up a conversation with the RWNJ at the bumper sticker booth. Next time, I'll ask the NRA how Obama's gonna take away our guns. I'll attend the gun show with loaded...questions.

There you have it. A ringing endorsement of gun show "culture".

[friendly_iconoclast]

36. Yet not so offputting as to preclude a day at the range, where she had a good time.

Best keep an eye on her- next thing you know, she'll be telling us that the Pope isn't God's underboss here on Earth, or that
Earth isn't the center of the Universe...

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gejohnston]

40. a sarcastic way of saying

the writer is full of shit.

[friendly_iconoclast]

52. Well, no, not really. More of a comment upon certain commenters *here*, actually.

At least MP went, saw for herself, and reported upon what she saw (albeit with some details garbled), instead of claiming to
"know" via received wisdom and secondhand accounts what gun shows are like....

[iverglas]

66. ah, so

MommaPolitico's report is not something I should consider reliable for future reference?

:eyes:

[mommapolitico]

117. Thanks

Thanks for that, FI! :) The majority of commenters, especially those who visited my blog, have been courteous and respectful when expressing their views. There will always be those who are less than that, but I hope that they are the exception rather than the rule.

[mommapolitico]

55. I actually went to the range first.

If you go to my blog, mommapolitico.com, you'll find I visited the range first...love the references - you're a smart cookie. Come by and visit my blog when you get a chance!

[gejohnston]

39. been to a lot of gun shows

and saw no Nazi wantabes, no questionable dealers, none of what is described. He or she must be going to all of the wrong ones.

[iverglas]

41. she -- "Momma Politico" -- did you read it??

The gun show was at the local fairgrounds.

"We enter the first of three buildings ..."

Do you just go to little gun shows?

[gejohnston]

42. Yeah

Unless he or she lives in some really fucked up place, I am calling bullshit too. Go to a gun show up there sometime. Go to one here.

[iverglas]

44. let Salon magazine know you're "calling bullshit"

Maybe they'll fire her.

[mommapolitico]

123. LOL! What a hoot!

Hey, iverson, you were right. This place is a hoot!
Please encourage our friend who wants me fired from Salon.com to go for it! He or she sounds like he/she thinks the internet "is a series of tubes" so may have a little trouble negotiating the "intertubes" to get there. Maybe they can use google maps??? ;)

[gejohnston]

134. I never said I wanted you

fired from Salon or any such thing. I do not think the internet is a series of tubes. I was simply expressing my impression of your blog post in a rather classless and crude way. The Nazi wantabe meme shows up in some propaganda intended to create guilt by association. Kind of like implying that the MREs were stolen.

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mommapolitico]

56. Only been to one so far

...any you can recommend? It's the same one that covered other major cities in the U.S. - please feel free to come by my blog and have a conversation with me and I will be happy to answer your civil and fair questions.

[iverglas]

65. you will have to be careful

Another poster here who references his blog regularly is assailed constantly with posts alleging "blog flogging". Don't want that happening to you! (Cereally -- if some of our colleagues run true to form, it will be starting momentarily.)

[mommapolitico]

124. Goo to know

Hi my friend,
Good to know - thanks, much, for looking out for me.
The amount of traction I have been seeing on posts that are years old from the links folks posted here is amazing! Moving me right up in the blogosphere. For never having asked to have my posts linked here, I am thrilled with the amount of hits I am getting already! Who would have thought that so many conservative-minded folks would help to build my liberal blogger career?!! :D
Thanks for the tip, my friend. No flogging - good to know. And thanks again for all your respectful and insightful comments.

[Abin Sur]

47. Ok...let's. She says there were "Glocks from World War II"

http://open.salon.com/blog/mommapolitico/2011/03/05/undercover_liberal_the_gun_show

Says volumes about her credibility when it comes to guns, doesn't it?

[friendly_iconoclast]

49. There's more where that came from:

Nearby, you can buy actual MREs - Meals Ready to Eat, military rations. We even see a field kitchen for sale. Where do they get this stuff? No one will say.

Possibly because they assumed that she was literate in English? Every pack of MREs I've ever seen has the manufacturers'
name printed on it in largish type...

[mommapolitico]

58. Let's discuss my literacy

I invite yo to come on by my blog, mommapolitico.com, and I will be happy to explain my literacy and educational background. Any civil and respectful questions will be answered. And, "largish"? Really? Pot, meet kettle; kettle meet pot.

[mommapolitico]

57. I never claimed to be an expert

Hi there,
I never claimed to be a firearms expert, nor to have any credibility regarding guns. On the contrary, I was very clear that I am not familiar with them. If you;d like to further discuss the article, come on by mommapolitico.com and I will entertain any civil discussion on the topic.

[friendly_iconoclast]

60. In all candor, the MRE vendor probably thought you were trying to undercut them

They usually get them from the manufacturer as, well, "surplus"- I rather doubt they were pinched from the DoD.

[mommapolitico]

125. Huh?

Sorry, FI, that was Greek to me! Can you explain? Here to learn, as always. :)

[gejohnston]

135. You implied that the

MREs were stolen because vender was reluctant to tell you where he got them.

[Abin Sur]

72. In all fairness

As an impression of someone who's not familiar with the "gun culture", your piece is an interesting perspective. The comment about the "Glocks from World War II" stood out...it's as if someone went to a car show, and commented that there were Chevy Corvettes from World War II; it's enough to make anyone with a passing knowledge of the hardware in question do a facepalm :)

Let's address some of your points one by one:

Even before we got inside the gate, out comes Davey-friggin'-Crocket, complete with fur hat and rifles cradled in both arms.

A distinct part of the gun culture are those who are into the Old West, and some of them enjoy dressing the part. Not my cup of tea, but to each their own.

As we approached the entrance, a booth appeared in front of us, with a red and white banner stating, in bold letters, "CLEAR ALL GUNS HERE" - WHAAATT? Now, there's a line of text I have never read before. Apparently, you are welcome to bring your guns, large or small, as long as you stop and register them before entering. Guns are checked to make sure they are empty and on safety, and are registered as yours and tagged to prove your ownership. Wow.

Well, it is a gun show. That's the whole point of being there! Given that, the above instructions are only common sense, yes?

Immediately inside the fence from where you unloaded your gun is a seriously huge stand of ammo - all calibers, boxes piled on boxes piled on boxes, a good 3 feet deep and 5 feet high, actually forming the walls of the booth. I imagine that's so you can reload...scary thought.

Why is the thought of being able to reload a firearm "scary"?

Ammo is cheap

Hmph. I wish...

Nearby, you can buy actual MREs - Meals Ready to Eat, military rations. We even see a field kitchen for sale. Where do they get this stuff? No one will say.

As another poster has pointed out, these are simply military surplus or overruns from the supplier. Nothing sinister. I have a half dozen cases of MREs socked away in case of emergency or natural disaster. Just being prudent/prepared.

As I am looking around, there are guns and gun parts as far as the eye can see. Rifles, pistols, guns from the 1800's until today, and, of course, more ammo. Oh, and toys. Yes, toys. Because, ladies and gentlemen, this is a family event. Bring little Johnny on down, in his head-to-toe camo, and show him what the Nazis used to wear.

I wouldn't characterize it as a family event...at least 90% of the attendees are probably men there by themselves or with friends...but it is family-friendly. Given that some children will be present, there's a niche for those selling toys. I don't particularly like it myself, simply because I'm not there to look at toys (or tools, or candy, etc.). As for little Johnny seeing military memorabilia, what's wrong with being exposed to history? Most kids today don't even know who the Nazis were.

Buy him those clackers you had as a kid and a neat vintage lighter embellished with a "KKK Member In Good Standing" medallion (saw it with my own eyes. Swear to God.)

I had clackers as a kid! Never be able to market them in today's world, of course...someone might get hurt! :eyes: As for the KKK lighter, I've never seen one or anything like that at a gun show. Please note that I'm not calling BS on you; there may well be the occasional out-and-out racist at a show, but their numbers are minuscule at best.

Speaking of the customers at the show, well, I don't ever remember being surrounded by so many white people in a looooong time.

I would certainly agree that attendees of gun shows are "whiter" than the overall population. To which I shrug my shoulders; the last time I attended a classical music concert it was overwhelming white. So what?

Another strange phenomenon was noticed by our friend Joanna. She's Asian, and wondered allowed what the deal was with the Asian dealers selling all the Nazi paraphernalia. "What is up with that???" she asked.

Can't help you with this one; I've never noticed this phenomenon.

couldn't believe the number and variety of guns for sale.

At the risk of belaboring the obvious...that's the point. Would you be shocked at the number and variety of Beanie Babies at a Beanie Baby show?

Everything from hunting rifles with beautiful wood stocks to semi-automatic weapons next to kits that can fix that.

I'm not sure exactly what you're asserting here. Are you saying that there was hardware being sold for conversion of semi-automatic weapons to fully automatic? If so, I'm extraordinarily skeptical. Not because I think you're being deceptive in any way, but rather because of your lack of knowledge on the subject. I have never seen hardware for full-auto conversions for sale at a gun show. Books about it, yes. Actual kits, no.

One dealer named Jerry quoted me a good price on an AR-15, complete with scope and my choice of clip - 20, 30 or 40 round, out the door for $1500. He gave me his phone number, and said he'd knock a hundred off if I came back to the show the next day to buy it.

While there are AR-15s that are worth that (and more), I can get you a nice Bushmaster for around a grand.

There were Glocks from World War II,

<choke>

and brand-new high-powered assault rifles.

Time to share a bit of knowledge: what you saw were almost certainly not assault rifles, which are by definition selective fire (that is, they can be operated in both semiautomatic and fully automatic modes). The rifles you saw (AR-15s, AK-47 clones, etc.) are semiautomatic only, which means they're just, well, semiautomatic rifles.

There were devices designed to get around the California law about the number of shells in a shotgun,

Since I don't live in California (and never would...some of the worst gun laws in the country!) I'm not familiar with the device in question. Is it merely a tactical reloading device designed to replenish the shells quickly? If so...so what?

These folks were well-versed in what they could and couldn't get away with, and exactly how they could skirt the existing laws. For a price, they were willing to tell you how to do it, too. Fascinating.

Why would you describe following the law to the letter as "skirting" it?

The thing that amazed me most was that if you wanted something, almost anything, you could find it here. It really was a bit of a one-stop shop. You could outfit your entire para-military militia here. Need boots? They've got 'em. How about helmets? Uniforms, camos, flack jackets, bulletproof vests, you bet. Custom-fitted earplugs. Survival rations. Guns, ammo, black powder, empty shells (for you DIY ammo types). And manual and more manuals: how to convert guns into automatic weapons. Self-defense for the little lady. How to use artillery and mortars. Making your own survival shelter. You name it, you can find it here. Wow. Just, wow.

Sound like fun! Every item you listed is perfectly legal, so why "wow"?

Yes, you heard me right when I said that I was offered a 40-clip to go with the weapon above.

Was this gun show held in California? My understanding is that it's illegal to sell (or even possess!) a magazine which holds more than 10 rounds in that state.

There were clips available for any weapon. Entire tables of extended magazines were available. Buy-Sell-Trade booths had tables thirty-feet long absolutely covered with the types of extended magazines that allowed Rep. Gifford's shooter to continue firing into the crowd and kill/injure so many innocent people. Needless to say, the furor over the recent tragedy has not spurred our legislature to action. Is the NRA really that strong? That's downright terrifying.

Some people do find the defense of civil liberties terrifying. As for the tables of extended (normal, in other words) capacity magazines...not in California!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Gun_Laws

"There are also numerous other laws, such as prohibition on possession of tracer ammunition, handgun armor piercing ammunition, .50 BMG rifles, and the sale or transfer of magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds. "

Anyway, even though I'm a noob myself at this site, welcome.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

75. Very interesting

I'm pro-gun rights. Not just for hunting and sport shooting but also self-defense.

That being said, I still have negative emotional reactions to massive amounts of firepower. To be frank, it's scary. To think that a place has so much destructive, life-taking potential is scary to me and I am totally sympathetic to mommapolitico's reaction because they mirror what mine would have been. Maybe not as intensely but I would definitely have been uneasy.

Yet, I have been shooting. I did enjoy it, although I'm not eager to go back.

I'm especially grateful for your courteous and thoughtful reply.

Welcome to DU

[Abin Sur]

79. Maybe it's a guy thing

When I go to a military museum and see hardware by the ton (literally) that is designed for the sole purpose of killing people, my emotional reaction is positive, not negative. To be precise, it's "Cool...!"

I have a couple of hundred books on my shelves devoted to various sorts of military hardware (guns, planes, ships, tanks, etc.). There are probably tens of thousands of people with similar (or better) libraries on this subject. I would venture that around 99% of them are male.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

87. I don't think I could share *that* level of enthusiasm

When I go to a military museum and see hardware by the ton (literally) that is designed for the sole purpose of killing people, my emotional reaction is positive, not negative. To be precise, it's "Cool...!"

I don't lay the moral burden of what I am about to say at your feet so please don't take this personal because it is NOT.

I have always been a pacifist and still am. I think books will end more wars than bombs. Yet, as I said, I am pro-self defense. I understand the need to resist those whose only intent is aggressive violence. I get it.

But war is something very personal to me even though I myself have never seen it. Even good people who fight good fights suffer for it. It touches my life every day because the man I love suffers from it. He is a good and wonderful man and I hurt when he hurts even though, on balance, things are better than they were before. I find nothing "cool" about war or its tools. I just want peace.

[Abin Sur]

88. To each their own

I don't lay the moral burden of what I am about to say at your feet so please don't take this personal because it is NOT.

Rest assured that I don't take it that way.

I have always been a pacifist and still am. I think books will end more wars than bombs.

This certainly hasn't been the case historically.

Yet, as I said, I am pro-self defense. I understand the need to resist those whose only intent is aggressive violence. I get it.

Fair enough.

But war is something very personal to me even though I myself have never seen it. Even good people who fight good fights suffer for it. It touches my life every day because the man I love suffers from it. He is a good and wonderful man and I hurt when he hurts even though, on balance, things are better than they were before. I find nothing "cool" about war or its tools. I just want peace.

I want peace as well, but sometimes it isn't a realistic option. That being the case, we have to be prepared for war.

As for the tools themselves...an example: I have in my collection a Walther P-38 made in 1943 that was used (as I can tell by the markings stamped into it) by the German army. These markings increase the value of the pistol to collectors such as myself. Now bear in mind that I despise the Nazis and I'm glad we killed them by the millions...and yet having one of their pistols is, well...cool. I can understand how someone else might not think so, and in fact might think just the opposite.

It's just fun to collect the bad guy's stuff after we beat them! Then there's the "villain" factor. Let's face it...the Nazis are the greatest villains of all time. Nazi memorabilia is *much* more collectible and valuable (on average) than Italian fascist memorabilia of the same period.

Mind you, I have plenty of guns from the Good Guys in my collection as well. I have a Colt 1911 used in World War One by the US Army. Does the fact that it was army issue make it "cooler" than a comparable civilian pistol?

Yup.

[iverglas]

90. so what does this mean? (edited)

I am pro-self defense

Are you pro-abortion too then?

Is what other people do in matters personal to them really any of your concern?

What if somebody doesn't want to defend themself? What if somebody doesn't want an abortion?

I appeal to you again: please speak in meaningful English.


edit

omg, I was omniscient

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4065407&mesg_id=4065517 (and note the reply)

Sure do have some funny talk on you there.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

92. "Is what other people do in matters personal to them really any of your concern?"

If a person chose to not defend their person there is nothing I could do to compel them. Just as I cannot and should not compel another woman to seek or decline an abortion.

Please extend the same courtesy to other people when it comes to their right of self-defense.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

105. did you not understand the question?

[mommapolitico]

128. You go, Girl!

[oneshooter]

89. If you can get down to Texas, I can get you on a 1914 built Battleship.

http://www.usstexasbb35.com/

[Abin Sur]

95. I'm actually going to be passing through Houston on Sunday

on my way to Costa Rica, but only for a couple of hours between flights...darn it.

If I'm ever there for a longer period I'll have to be sure to see it.

[iverglas]

81. "I am totally sympathetic to mommapolitico's reaction

... because they mirror what mine would have been. Maybe not as intensely but I would definitely have been uneasy.

What reaction was that?

I read the piece when it was first linked to here. Just scanned through it again.

I'd sum her reaction up maybe as "gobsmacked", by the whole carnival. "Uneasy"? I didn't see it.

What I am seeing, of course, is an effort to portray an advocate of effective firearms control measures as a bit of a sissy with a bit of an, oh, irrational reaction to a bunch of inanimate objects. Yes, I know, dear, I have had the same feelings as you ... -- but we can overcome!

[mommapolitico]

126. I appreciate the thoughtful reply, too

Thanks, Unicorn, for your kind defense. May be it is a guy thing. Maybe it is simply that I'd never seen so much of what was there, and in such quantity. I still go target shooting, and have gotten pretty proficient with a 308 rifle. (And, yes, I am probably calling it the wrong thing!) Was fun to hit 1000 yards - can't even see it without the scope, so that was a trip.

To our friend above that you were addressing, I apologize for any inaccuracies. Like I said, not a gun expert. But, yes, they were selling kits to convert to fully automatic. One guy told me he'd throw it in free if I bought the semiautomatic weapon. And, yes, we're in California, so the laws don't allow the larger extended magazines. I don't have time to go over things point by point as he did, but the piece was simply my impressions, my liberal, and yea, female impressions, of a first visit to a gun show.

I have been encouraged by the dialogue most folks are interested in having here on the topic. The name-callers and profanities have been few and far between. Though I did get a kick out of the dude who wants to get me fired from Salon. That was worth the price of admission, as they say!

Thanks again, Unicorn. Hope we have a chance to talk again - thanks for your response as well.

[Abin Sur]

136. Vendors simply don't offer to throw in free full auto conversion kits at gun shows

But, yes, they were selling kits to convert to fully automatic. One guy told me he'd throw it in free if I bought the semiautomatic weapon.

It has been illegal to convert semiautomatic firearms to fully automatic since 1986. While there are full autos to be had for extremely high prices, all of them were manufactured no later than 1986. What's more, the process of acquiring a full auto weapon involves months of federal paperwork. I'm currently getting a suppressor (silencer) which is a very similar process, and I sent the paperwork in 4 months ago. I'm still waiting for approval.

The idea that someone would throw in a full-auto conversion kit for free is, quite frankly, laughable. Either a vendor is doing their best to go to jail for a long time (extremely unlikely) or you simply misunderstood (much more likely).

[friendly_iconoclast]

138. I doubt she misunderstood- more likely a scam to try and make a sale, IMO.

Some salespeople do their best to live up to the stereotype, it would seem....

[iverglas]

77. "As for the KKK lighter, I've never seen one or anything like that at a gun show."

To my knowledge, neither has anyone else of your bent.

It seems that only people not wearing the special spectacles are able to see what's on open display at these gun shows.

Either that or they somehow manage to hit all the gun shows that no actual, um, gun afficionado ever goes to.

:rofl:

[Abin Sur]

82. Are you asserting

That gun shows regularly have KKK paraphernalia on display? If so, please document it.

And as for my personal spectacles, they're only used at gun shows in the Denver area...so if you're accusing me of overlooking KKK paraphernalia at gun shows, please document that such things are regularly on display here in Denver.

[mommapolitico]

127. It was pretty weird

Yes, it was pretty weird and definitely disconcerting. Again, it is the only gun show I've ever attended, and I made no bones about that. I hope to God that IS an anomaly, my friend. Since cameras aren't allowed, what would be the best way to document something like that, and gads, who would one report such a thing to??? Seriously interested.

[Abin Sur]

137. As you point out

There's no practical way to document it, short of finding someone who's made a study of it. All I can point out is that I've been to dozens of shows and have never seen anything like that. As for reporting it, other than yakking about it on a message board there wouldn't be much point.

[iverglas]

78. "Some people do find the defense of civil liberties terrifying."

And some people prefer banana cake.

How come you can't stick to the subject?

What the author found terrifying was the influence wielded by the NRA or whatever other reason there might be for a legislature's failure to enact legislation that she regards as good and necessary.

How come you can't address that?

[Abin Sur]

84. You brought up her trip the gun show...not me!

In post #25, to be specific. My first post on this thread was in reply to that. How come you can't stick to the subject?

In any case, as for her terror regarding the influence of the NRA and the legislature's lack of action (yay!) on such matters, what's to address? While I can correct and inform her regarding the facts about guns and gun shows, whether or not legislation should be passed restricting gun rights is a matter of opinion, and in my experience the chance of having a meaningful conversation that will convince one side or the other to say, "Why...you're right, and I'm going to modify my stance" is virtually nil.

Frankly, it's more fun to talk about the guns themselves, as I'm doing in a couple of other threads. They are pretty neat, after all.

[iverglas]

85. "what's to address?"

Nothing, evidently.

Which would apparently be why you decided to make some shit up and "address" that instead of what was said about something specific, in a think piece about a trip to a gun show.



Dear Mr./Ms. Straw Person: ....

Sincerely yours,

Abin Sur

[Abin Sur]

86. What "shit" did I make up? And please, be specific.

I eagerly await your response.

[iverglas]

91. subject line of post 78

Lather, rinse, repeat, spin yourself til you're dry.

[Abin Sur]

94. So you're asserting that some people *don't* find the defense of civil liberties terrifying?

You might want to check out the Right's reaction to gay marriage sometime. It's been in all the papers, after all...

[iverglas]

96. I'm asserting that I can see through your stupid game

with my eyes closed. As can everyone else, of course.

Oh, ye gods. In trying to find a nice little picture to put here, I find that "the emperor has no clothes" has become a right-wing anti-Obama meme for some reason. And yowsers, did that lead me to some places I didn't want to go to before I realized what was up.

"Jewish gun-grabbers". Now there's a new one.

But I digress.

I'm asserting that your discourse is foully disrespectful of everyone within eyeshot. Not that most of them aren't telling themselves what a clever fellow you are. Keep telling yourselves! Maybe you'll believe it if you do it often enough.

[Abin Sur]

97. "But I digress"

That's, er, putting it mildly.

I'm asserting that your discourse is foully disrespectful of everyone within eyeshot.

I suppose it's easier to make that assertion than to go to the effort of having a rational conversation. Seems a bit lazy, though.

I'm just sayin'...

[iverglas]

98. subject line of post 78

[Abin Sur]

99. The subject line in question is "Some people do find the defense of civil liberties terrifying."

I stand by that statement.

So what?

[friendly_iconoclast]

100. And some people here have an unwarranted belief that they are morally superior to other DUers...

...and are therefore entitled to chastise them about their perceived failings. In other words: we are beset by lefty, minor-league versions of Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, or William Bennett.

I stand by those statements.

[iverglas]

103. stand by your statements, sit on your statements

Who really cares?

[iverglas]

102. and I hope Momma Politico reads that statement in your post 72

It's just as irrelevant and despicable a response to what she said that you quoted as it was when you wrote it.

[Abin Sur]

104. It's certainly not irrelevant

As for your characterization of it being "despicable", perhaps you should crank it down a notch, m'kay?

[iverglas]

106. I calls 'em as I sees 'em, pal

When someone pretends that someone else said something they did not say, and speaks to that person in a manner that implies that the person said something really very stupid and/or evil when the person did no such thing, well, I calls it. As I did.

[Abin Sur]

107. That's quite all right, dear

Mind you, I did not such thing...but if pretending that I did makes you feel better, feel free to do so.

After all, it's not as if your opinion on this subject actually, well...matters. :7

[mommapolitico]

129. Thanks!

Thanks for watching out for me, iverson. You're a pal, and most of the folks here have gone out of their way to be civil and respectful, even if we disagree. I appreciate that. That, and all the hits the blog's been getting due to someone linking just one line! Amazing! :D

[Francis Marion]

110. Hang on

She's not a scholar of 20th century conflict. She's an 'average Jane' who dropped into a gun show just to see what was there. We have to give her a break for not knowing or misplacing some basic- to us- gun history.

A person who doesn't shoot could mistake, or misunderstand, details.

There's plenty of learning to do. Nothing sinister about gun show vendors who won't reveal the source of the merchendise whose sale forms their livelihood. They don't want you to enable a competitor, as they see it.

Momma Politico seems to believe that there's something 'wrong' with one person choosing to sell personal property to another person, such as a firearms. OK- she's fairly new to the 'keeping and bearing' aspect of individual liberty. Similarly, she has a negative perception of the NRA, our (oldest?) venerable civil rights oganization. With time and study, she may reach different conclusions. But her willingness to see and experience for herself is commendable. She'll test and learn to form an individual opinion in lieu of a default opinion. That's an honest, personal, and earned result, and may well be significantly different than before. An opinion based on experience, data and not a 'party line.'

Given a large enough sample size, you'll get extremes- of unpleasantness, among other things. It's sad that she ran into a jerk in the parking lot. That moron needs to learn to respect differences of opinion and maintain civility.

[DonP]

114. You left out one important point - she actually went to one.

That vast majority of people that show up here telling us how horrible gun shows are or how easy it is to buy scads of marginally illegal guns at a show to stock the local gang with, have never actually been to one. They are either working directly from pre-conceived notions, fostered by the Brady's et. al. or lying through their smugly held teeth.

The vast swaths of KKK. Nazi memorabilia and machine gun conversions kits they claim to have "seen for sale" at gun shows that we hear about are probably the best examples of the BS they try to pass off.

But! At least MommaPolitico actually went to one. Some of her impressions were confirming preconceived notions and that was done more out of her (small i) ignorance of firearm related things like "things that look like machine gun aren't really a machine gun and really can't be made into a machine gun without a machine shop" reminds me of my own sisters that held that view for years until our mother straightened them out. The fact that it was mostly white attendees at the show she went to could very well be based on the location rather than any built in prejudice. Another component might also be related to her own occasional admitted use of hyperbole to make the article more interesting.

But let's give her credit for challenging her own preconceived notions, even if we may not agree with where she came out on every point.

If she goes again she'll be a little bit smarter and after her range trips a little more educated on what she's looking at.

[mommapolitico]

130. Thanks.

Just wanted to thank you for your respectful response. Glad to see that you understood my perspective. It is interesting to me that more folks who believe in gun ownership aren't more encouraging of the posts I've written, in that now there are several more folks who go shooting regularly, myself included. There's more common ground for us all than some people think. Thanks again for the thoughtful response to my post.

[mommapolitico]

141. Thanks from Momma Politico

Thanks so much for your comments. I am still amazed that so many people who are pro-firearms are so critical of my efforts to learn more and experience the sport they enjoy. I appreciate your clarifications, and have found most folks here to be respectful and civil. There will always be one in the crowd...still, it amazes me that they are so angry that I would try and find out for myself about guns and all that goes with it. Thanks again, and happy shooting!

[Atypical Liberal]

19. Why all the unrecs?

Guess the members of the church of anti-gun can't stand to see a progressive go shooting and discover that shooting is actually fun.

Getting someone to go shooting is the easiest way to get them to stop being anti-gun. Once they realize that they, too, enjoy shooting, then they can make that next step that goes, "Well, I guess if I'm a shooter, not all shooters can be terrible, since I'm not terrible..."

[Xela]

20. Cognitive dissonance?

I normally don't use big words beyond my reach. But, it seems to apply.

Xela

[ileus]

21. I gave it a +1 even thought it had a slight anti-bias

[Hoyt]

22. Playing army was "fun" when 8 year old -- then you learn the truth.

[Atypical Liberal]

23. The truth that target shooting is nothing like being in the army?

Or the truth that hunting is nothing like being in the army?

Or that self-defense for real is a much more serious undertaking that doing it for pretend?

Which truth are we talking about here?

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoyt]

29. New ideas -- I was shooting at 7 or 8. Grew out of it though -- thank God.

There's a novel idea for you guys.

[spin]

31. I have no problem with your decision to give up shooting ...

why do you have so much trouble with my decision to legally carry a concealed handgun?

[DonP]

33. Sure you were - "making another point"?

And then at 9 you developed your super ninja skillz and had no need of mere mortal tools anymore.

So that means you haven't shot a gun in what, 6 months now?

[mommapolitico]

59. Thank you for your civil and respectful comment.

Thanks much for your comment. Surprising that none of these folks seem to want to speak to me, the author of the piece they are so rabidly discussing! I appreciate what you are saying - knowledge is power. Sadly, I have had many experiences with gun owners that were not as positive as at our range (I go once a month now) and many that were extremely more positive than the gun show. Thanks again for bringing some reason back into this discussion.

[chibajoe]

67. You shouldn't let it bother you too much

There are about 5 posters on this board who make up the majority of the post and seem to have little interest in anything other than being antagonistic. I have long suspected at least a couple of them to be some type of VI, but I have no proof of this. In any case, your time here will be much more pleasant if you mostly ignore them (it won't take long for you to figure out who they are). ;)

[iverglas]

83. in case Momma Politico is as puzzled as I was

a sample of your work:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=439808#439828

regarding a survivor of the Norway mass murder:

chibajoe
Sun Jul-24-11 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
3. I have an better solution, how about he just shoot back?
Oh, that's right, he lives in a country where they have stripped away his right to defend himself. Fortunately, those of us living in the United States still have that right (in most places).

chibajoe
Sun Jul-24-11 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. In all that reading on the subject that you have done, I guess you missed
the part where there is no legal concealed carry in Norway. Or maybe you missed the part where they can only transport firearms to and from their shooting club, the one they have to join in order to legally own a gun. Or, apparently, any of the other restrictions on firearm ownership that exist in Norway that do not exist here in the United States.
A 10 second search on Google would be enough to clue even a retarded chimpanzee in on the vast differences in their gun laws and ours.

Oh look, I replied:

iverglas
Mon Jul-25-11 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. well, you could read what he has said
One really would think that if he were bitterly angry about having been prohibited from having a firearm on his person so he could have stopped the murders (no guarantee of that anyway, of course), he'd be saying something to that effect.
Anything?

There wasn't.

[mommapolitico]

142. Good advice!

That's good advice, my friend. And thanks. :) Enough smart and civil folks here to make it worth the visit!

[MicaelS]

73. Everything you ever wanted to know about MRE's..

Right here...http://www.mreinfo.com/

Not just US Military, but civilian as well as foreign countries. Great website, I highly recommend it. It'll answer your question as to where those gun show MRE's might have come from.

[Atypical Liberal]

101. No problem. I enjoyed your article.

Sadly, I have had many experiences with gun owners that were not as positive as at our range (I go once a month now) and many that were extremely more positive than the gun show.

Sadly, gun ownership and second amendment rights is dominated by the right wing. They have successfully used it as a wedge issue for decades. Right-wing politicians play to the "God, guns, and guts" crowd, and consequently you end up with nationalistic, religious fanatics stacking the ranks of gun owners.

The good news is there are progressive second-amendment supporters.

As I said before, I think nearly any progressive, once you take them to a range and let them use a gun, and they discover that they can do so comfortably, confidently, safely, and enjoyably, suddenly break through their mindset that "people who use guns are bad people". Because suddenly those people are them. And then they think, "Well, gee, I'm not a bad person, and I'm enjoying safely using this gun, so maybe other people are, too..."

And from there it isn't much of a leap at all to realize that in fact the vast majority of firearm owners don't do bad things with their firearms. There simply aren't enough bad things done with firearms compared to the 40-80 million firearm owners in this country.

And as I have also said before elsewhere, one of the big strengths of progressives/liberals is the use of collective action to empower the weak to stand up to the strong. But too often they feel that collective action is the only way for the weak to stand up to the strong and they distrust, or downright resent, weak individuals being empowered to stand up to the strong on their own. It is a mindset that needs to change.

[friendly_iconoclast]

108. +1 Hear that, people? If you are gun owner, take a friend to a range and let them shoot n/t

[iverglas]

111. bilge

The good news is there are progressive second-amendment supporters.

Sez you. ;)

As I said before, I think nearly any progressive, once you take them to a range and let them use a gun, and they discover that they can do so comfortably, confidently, safely, and enjoyably, suddenly break through their mindset that "people who use guns are bad people". Because suddenly those people are them.

No, because ... um ... orange! true! an elephant!

Something doesn't happen "because" of something else, when the something never existed in the first place.

God damn, you people must buy straw by the football field full.

And from there it isn't much of a leap at all to realize that in fact the vast majority of firearm owners don't do bad things with their firearms.

And that will have them voting Republican in no time flat, because these progressives of yours are obviously really, really, really stupid people. I mean, until somebody took them shooting, they thought that the vast majority of firearms owners DO do bad things with their firearms!


And as I have also said before elsewhere, one of the big strengths of progressives/liberals is the use of collective action to empower the weak to stand up to the strong. But too often they feel that collective action is the only way for the weak to stand up to the strong and they distrust, or downright resent, weak individuals being empowered to stand up to the strong on their own. It is a mindset that needs to change.

I'd say the mindset that has to change is the one that prompts people to think they can spew bilge around and somebody else has to accept it as not just meaningful, but gospel.

And that there is the purest bilge.

[mommapolitico]

131. ...but

...but I am a terrible shooter! ;) Actually, getting better every trip to the range.

[mommapolitico]

48. Thanks from Momma Politico

Hi there, Xela!
Just wanted to thank you for the link back to my post - I appreciate it. It seems to have garnered quite a bit of discussion here! I hope you'll be back for other articles as well. :)
Take care,
Perry (AKA Momma Politico

[friendly_iconoclast]

53. And thank *you* for joining DU. You will certainly not be bored here.

Added on edit: I gave you a donor star. You'll find it quite helpful for the enhanced search function alone -not to mention
the help the $ will give our sometimes fractious, sometimes infuriating (but always interesting) site.

[mommapolitico]

61. Many thanks, friendl_iconoclast

You are right, I would wager - I will never be bored! ;) Thanks for the star - you're very kind. And for good or bad, I appreciate the link back and the quotes members have added. Good to see so many folks are civil and respectful. There will always be the critics, but most of your folks here were fair-minded and insightful. Take care, and again, my thanks. Hope you'll come by and read some of my non-gun related work! :D

[benEzra]

115. I just added your blog to my reading list, thanks. Good stuff. :-)

:toast:

I also posted in the comments to your went-to-the-range post, if you don't mind. I'm one of those "assault weapon" owners (I shoot USPSA and recreationally with a Rock River carbine) but hopefully we're not all curmudgeons.

[mommapolitico]

116. Thanks, Ben!

Hi Ben,
Thanks so much for your thoughtful comments to my posts. I've always meant for my blog to be a place for discussion, not just for my own point of view, and when folks like you and some of the others here leave such thoughtful insights and respectful comments, it is heartening/. Thanks for the spot on your blogroll. I am appreciative! Please let me know your url so I can visit your blog as well!
Again, my thanks!

[mommapolitico]

132. Good!

Glad you posted to the comments, Ben. Forgive me for not responding to it yet - been a busy first couple of weeks of school. Never a dull moment for the principal! :) Thanks again.

[Xela]

70. Heeelloooo Momma Politico...

:hi:

Great to see you over here as well :)

Kind regards,

Xela

[mommapolitico]

133. Hi Xela!

Hello to you, too! You'll have to tell me how to access those little emoticons - looks like I'll be hanging around this thread once in awhile! ;)
Take care,
MP

[DWC]

113. What a difference a day makes. Great post! n/t