What Is Your Plan For The Unlucky Ones

[RSillsbee]

One of the most common arguments I hear from those who favor strong gun control here is that the odds are so heavily against us ever actually having to use our firearms that there’s really no point in our carrying them. Although I can think of 4 regular posters who have used their firearms in self defense here and one member who was the victim of a violent attack that probably should have had a gun. (And I think Shares said he chased some guy out of his house w/ a Katana once)

So, even if it’s true that the odds are against us ever having to use a gun in self defense the fact remains that some people will get mugged , Some people will be that victims of a home invasion. Some will get raped. Some will hook up w/ that whack job (male or female) who really meant that shit when they said they’d kill you if you ever left them.

What’s your plan for them? How do you intend that they defend themselves? What do you think they should do when faced w/ a situation where they can’t defend themselves w/out a weapon? Should they just suck it up? Are they the acceptable collateral damage of a gun free utopia?

Edited to ensure that there is no hint of name calling & no call outs

[Tuesday Afternoon]

1. add another member

who was the victim of a violent attack that probably should have had a gun. Happened in the home after midnight, too.

[RSillsbee]

2. It seems to me that those who favor strong restrictions on guns

Are quite will to sacrifice those who are forced into a position of having to defend themselves w/ a gun in favor of a supposedly safer society that they think willlresult from tighter restrictions

[DesertFlower]

3. we own several guns for self protection.

if someone gets past our security system i will not hesitate to use it.

[geckosfeet]

4. What about the unlucky ones with no health insurance? Or no job? Or home?

How should they defend themselves? I think that socioeconomic and health risks are far greater than the risk for crime. Not to minimize the risk of crime of course.

As for defending oneself against crime - there is a world of difference between having to use a gun or wanting to use a gun, and using a gun effectively. Putting a gun in the dresser drawer or your pocket, and not training regularly is kind of like praying for peace. The intention is there but the realization is not.

What I am saying is that being armed is not a guarantee. Don't try to sell it like it is. It's dishonest. It could go badly if the bad guy grabs your gun. Or you miss. Or you freak out and forget to flip the safety, drop the mag or any number of things that happen to people who do not train regularly. People need to be armed AND trained. The emphasis in this country is on regulation instead of education. Always has been. That's where the easy money is.

But all things considered, I would rather have a gun and not need it....

[RSillsbee]

5. What about the unlucky ones with no health insurance? Or no job? Or home?

Shouldn't those questions be asked (and answered) in their respective forums?

What I am saying is that being armed is not a guarantee. Don't try to sell it like it is. It's dishonest. It could go badly if the bad guy grabs your gun. Or you miss. Or you freak out and forget to flip the safety, drop the mag or any number of things that happen to people who do not train regularly. People need to be armed AND trained. The emphasis in this country is on regulation instead of education. Always has been. That's where the easy money is.

Double edged sword. I've seen regular participants in this forum state that those who train are bloodthirsty barbarians who can't wait to kill and in another place state that those who don't train are incompetent and unqualified to carry a gun

[geckosfeet]

13. Respective forums,,, ahhh. These things are all related to some extent. The reason

we have crime, is in many cases, desperation. Someone is angry about some perceived social or economic injustice. So somehow they get a gun and they go on a shooting rampage. Or they need some cash to pay some bills and are desperate so they commit a crime.

Granted, these cases are at one edge of the spectrum and may comprise a small percentage of total gun crime, but I think the majority of crime is committed by desperate people who cannot not see any legitimate legal way to meet their needs.

We talk about bad guys, goblins, dirtbags and perps. But they were not always such. They were made by a unique set of socioeconomic and political circumstances. CAt some point in their lives they came to accept and understand crime as a way to survive. Not to justify or excuse their behavior in any way, but to reduce crime you need to reduce the number of criminals. To do that you need to deal with the forces that create them. I agree that gun control is not 'the' answer. It may have a place in the equation but it is wrongheaded to focus on it.

But I suppose that there will always be those who commit crime no matte what opportunities they have. Witness the great bank heist of 2008 - I speak of the bank bailouts - and I am convinced that the banks knew the risks all along, and knew that they had a public safety net. They took it. Plain and simple. THEY STOLE IT right out from under our noses and our leaders let them get away with it through their ignorance or their complicity.

The bloodthirsty barbarian descriptor certainly does not fit me, nor most of the other people that I have met in my experiences with firearms. Yes, a few fringe types with that look in their eye, but in general these are not bloodthirsty people. In fact they are most often just the opposite. Again, people who call others bloodthristy barbarian are probably in need of some education and care. They are afraid and/or do not have a clear understanding of the reality.

[Uben]

6. No one is really defenseless as long as...

....they have their trusty duct tape and plastic sheeting! Multiple layers on one's body can become a makeshift body armor.
If you have black plastic sheeting, you can go out at night, lay down, and cover yourself up and become invisible. Or, you can run into a room and tape the door shut. As you can see, these two items alone can protect you from everything from home invasion to nuclear war. Why spend money on a gun when you can have total protection from household items? I once fended off three intruders with nothing more than a whisk broom and a can of Spaghettios. Guns indeed.

[geckosfeet]

15. 'a whisk broom and a can of Spaghettios' - brilliant technique! And inexpensive too.

[iverglas]

21. I once fended off someone who had assaulted me on the sidewalk

with a bag full of deposit-paid glass pop bottles. He had backed off after the initial assault and was standing, oh, maybe 30 feet away, undoubtedly already contemplating the error of his ways, but still hyped up and looking and sounding kind of threatening. I aimed them carefully at the roadway just in front of his feet, one by one, spaced out by several seconds to observe the effect of each and determine whether more were needed, while yelling for my upstairs tenant (and anyone else in the vicinity). As each one shattered in front of him, I watched him dance. I felt just like Clint Eastwood. After that, the police took him away, I cleaned up the broken glass, and he was convicted of assault. I was a bit lame for a couple of weeks from the large bruise on my leg.

Damn waste of a reusable resource, but it was worth it to make sure that bad guy got what he deserved.

[AtheistCrusader]

52. What?

Broken glass can be recycled just fine. It's going to be melted down anyway.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tularetom]

8. I guess you could say I'm one of the lucky ones

Lucky that I didn't have one of my guns on my person that is. I confronted a thief in my barn with one of our chain saws in his hand. I had a pellet gun under the seat of my truck and I took it into the barn with me. When the guy made a move toward me with the saw I fired at him. Since I'd only had the chance to pump the gun once it didn't have much effect but he was struck in the shoulder and was startled enough that he dropped the saw and ran out of the barn. The sheriff found him about an hour later hiding in a culvert a mile or so down the road.

Why am I lucky? Because in my house at the time were a 1911 and several double action revolvers all chambered in .45 ACP. I didn't have time to go get one of them. If I'd shot the guy with one of them he'd probably be dead and I would have had a lot of questions to answer. I don't think a jury here would have convicted me of anything but it is conceivable I'd have been charged and had a lot of legal expenses.

Yeah, better him than me but the way it turned out was better yet. I got my saw back and I didn't have to explain a dead man in my barn.

[MyrnaLoy]

9. What is your plan for Katy Benoit?

She was shot by a guy who law enforcement was so sure he was a safe risk that they issued him a concealed weapon permit allowing him to bypass a 5-day waiting period. Katy Benoit ended up with 11 .45cal bullets in her as she lay dying her her front yard. What is your plan for her? What is your plan to make sure we don't hand weapons over to men like Ernesto Bustamante?

You have a plan to make sure that doesn't happen again? Other than handing out concealed weapon permits willy-nilly? How many Katy Benoit's are acceptable to you? You ask us for a plan, now I ask you. How to you propose to protect us from concealed weapon permit holders who kill? You know. the one's law enforcement and the NRA thought were a good risk? WHAT IS YOUR PLAN?

Katy had a plan, she had contacted law enforcement and the university over and over. She even contacted them on the day she was shot to death. Want to know what law enforcement did to disarm Ernesto Bustamante? Absolutely nothing. What is your plan? You ask us that? WHAT IS YOUR PLAN! More permits, more guns? More permits in the hands of people we don't know? That is your answer? Laughable! Soon we will need permits to protect ourselves from permit holders. Since May of 2007 every murder committed with a firearm in Moscow Idaho was committed by a concealed weapon permit holder. 100% OF THE MURDERS SINCE 2007 WERE COMMITTED BY PEOPLE WITH CONCEALED WEAPON PERMITS! WHAT IS YOUR PLAN!

http://www.kmvt.com/news/state/Police-release-new-details-in-Katy-Benoit-case-128542083.html

[one-eyed fat man]

10. Petition the Moscow police department to revoke yours

Obviously, you must be the next one to go wacko. You claim the ONLY reason YOU got YOU permit was to avoid the waiting period.

" yes... I can buy a hand gun without the waiting period..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph

Are you working on an advanced degree from the Carl Rowan School of Hypocrisy?

Your position is totally self-serving. Rules are for other people. They are not worthy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"I enjoy shooting, I don't like waiting...I can buy a hand gun without the waiting period..."

You know damn good and well the only thing the University did was try to keep it quiet. They could have had Bustamante arrested under various domestic abuse or stalking statutes. They certainly didn't tell the victim she was on her own or that he had resigned under pressure. Their self-serving statements to the contrary, they were trying to the keep the "scandalous behavior" of a "well-liked and accomplished academic" sullying the school's reputation. They were trying to make it all go away quietly hoping he'd take his predatory behaviors elsewhere.

"They" all "knew" he was dangerous, crazy, etc, just not enough to DO anything about it.

[SteveM]

34. The cites given cannot be found. Need a different server? nt

[one-eyed fat man]

40. Try this one

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=423465&mesg_id=423668

You'll get the idea...

[MyrnaLoy]

39. hahahaha

your sure there's not more to one eyed and fat? Your answer is to attack me? You don't want to keep guns out of the hands of people who murder women? Right.....it's the truth you hate, the woman killing is just a consequence.

[hack89]

11. Strengthen domestic violence laws. nt

[spin]

12. So we witness incompetence among university and police officials

and we should all run out and turn in our carry permits and our firearms?

Is that your solution?

[rrneck]

17. Is there a Katy Benoit in your future? nt

[rl6214]

18. "What is your plan for Katy Benoit?"

I think that was probably answered in the other half dozen threads you started about her or maybe in the other dozen or so threads you mentioned her in.

"Katy had a plan, she had contacted law enforcement and the university over and over. She even contacted them on the day she was shot to death. Want to know what law enforcement did to disarm Ernesto Bustamante? Absolutely nothing."

This was the problem, not guns. LAW ENFORECEMNT AND THE UNIVERSITY KNEW ABOUT THE PROBLEM AND DID NOTHING ABOUT IT. Every law on the books did nothing about it. Passing more laws will do nothing about it. ENFORCE THE DAMN LAWS THAT ARE ON THE BOOKS ALREADY.

[DWC]

19. The real question is What Is Yours?

I have a plan to defend myself. Every member of my family has a plan to defend themselves. They all emphasize situational awareness and avoidance but include aggressive self defense if necessary using up to and including lethal force. We regularly train and remain constantly armed within the constraints of the Law. We know to expect "others" to defend us from random or targeted violence simply makes us victims waiting to happen.

Had Katy Benoit followed my plan it is POSSIBLE that she could have avoided, deterred, or stopped the murderous attack.

That is my plan. What is yours?

Semper Fi,

[iverglas]

22. the other murder

Do you have details for it offhand?

In looking for it, I first ran across this report, which contains an interesting tidbit:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/us/22sniper.html

(I'm thinking he didn't have a permit because of his record - ?)

MOSCOW, Idaho, May 21 <2007> — The gunman who killed a police officer, a church sexton and then himself in this quiet northern Idaho town over the weekend also apparently shot and killed his wife in the moments before his sniperlike shootings, the authorities said on Monday.

... “He stated that if he wanted to commit suicide he wouldn’t do it this way, but he would take a whole bunch of people with him, either by a shooting or by a bomb,” ... Asked by a reporter on Monday whether such statements should have sounded alarms, Chief Duke said, “He started reversing those threats, saying he didn’t mean any of that.”

... The police said Mr. Hamilton had been drinking at a bar with another man until about 10 p.m. Saturday. Then, they believe, he went home and fatally shot his wife in the head before setting off for the courthouse carrying two semiautomatic rifles. Around 11:30 p.m., he opened fire at the building, eventually firing some 125 shots at the courthouse and at the people who responded to the scene.

Peter Husmann, a 20-year-old mechanical engineering major at the University of Idaho, in Moscow, heard the shootings and rode his bicycle to the scene armed with a .45-caliber pistol, said his father, Sam Husmann. Peter Husmann was shot in the back, fell to the ground, and was then shot in the calf, neck and shoulder, his father said. He was in stable condition on Monday.

... In June 2006, Mr. Hamilton was convicted of domestic battery for trying to strangle a girlfriend he lived with during a separation from his wife. After serving about 90 days in jail, he violated a condition of his probation that required him to attend counseling. At a hearing last week, a judge decided against returning Mr. Hamilton to jail and gave him one more month to see a counselor, Chief Duke said.

All that, and he had guns. What a place.

Anyhow, I note that the fellow who took his gun to get the bad guy didn't have much luck. So much for that magic gun aura.

[rl6214]

24. Yeah, so much for the cops taking care of business

"Around 11:30 p.m., he opened fire at the building, eventually firing some 125 shots at the courthouse and at the people who responded to the scene."

Pretty inept if you ask me. Getting off 125 shots and not being captured within the first 5 minutes. Not a group I want to put my faith in when it comes to my safety.

[petronius]

26. "Magic gun aura"? Funny how, in your very next post in this thread,

you complain about people making shit up. :shrug:

Anyway, I googled those as well, and it looks as though Hamilton did have a CC permit, although legally it should have been revoked. So in both of these cases, we have a murderer who was giving off substantial warning signs without any effective response. That's the real area of concern, not permits in general or access to firearms.

(The only other Moscow murderer I could find in this time frame strangled his wife - not sure if he gave off any warning signs...)

[MyrnaLoy]

29. Look under idaho

It's a PDF file. He was able to get a permit even with the conviction. This is one small county, how many other counties are handing out permits to killers. 100% of the murders since 2007 have been done by permit holders. That has to say something. Where else is it happening? This alone is the reason this forum, the NRA, and the GOP fight to keep permit lists private. They don't want journalists and statisticians getting the information.

If this forum really cared about safety they would want the answers also. They would want to know of a problem and fight to fix it. They just protect the weapon, truth be damned. As a responsible gun owner and permit holder I would always want to know the truth

That is my plan.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MyrnaLoy]

43. are you

denying that 100% of the murders since 2007 in Moscow, Id. have been committed by permit holders? Yes or No?

[one-eyed fat man]

45. I'm not denying anything, YOU are

In case you don't realize it the Moscow PD has had all the info on permits in Idaho at their disposal all along. CCW permit holder info has always been available to law enforcement agencies.

The fact is, that they failed to use the resources or assign sufficient investigative priority to checking out the "professor" that was subject of the complaint. Did all the murderers have months of questionable behavior that was ignored by the authorities?

Since you claim all Moscow murderers are permit holders, and you have a permit, are you planning to give yours up?

Yes or No?

[MyrnaLoy]

46. WTF are you talking about?

"Since you claim all Moscow murderers are permit holders," Where did I say all permit holders are murderers? Seriously man you need to take more time to read shit.

I said all the murders since 2007 were committed by PERMIT HOLDERS. They have night classes for reading comprehension, I hope they can help you.

[petronius]

48. You know, Myrna, this is probably the most embarrassingly screwed-up post I've

seen here in a long time, even for you. It's just painful to contemplate.

I honestly don't think anyone would hold it against you, if you chose to edit it away and conceal your shame...

[MyrnaLoy]

50. thanks for the concern

but I'm fine. Besides if I did edit it no one would see just how much you guys don't know. Tell me, in all this discussion, has one of the forum regulars considered that there was a flaw in the system that gave this guy a permit? Nope, not a one. It's all about the gun, a young woman's life be damned. This is the permitting process you want even when people die.

No, I won't edit any of it. Too many people are beginning to see just how stupid this forum is.

[petronius]

51. I especially liked the part where you quoted what he said you'd said, asked him to show where

you'd said the exact opposite, repeated what he knew along was your comment, and then accused him of needing more education. That was definitely thought-provoking! So if people are seeing this forum as "stupid," it's due in no small part to your frequent and diligent efforts in that direction.

As for the topic, you've completely misunderstood the conversation there as well. Everybody, as near as I can tell, thinks and has said that the system failed in the case of Bustamente. He shouldn't have had a permit, and authorities should have been more active in ensuring he wasn't a threat.

Where you are wrong - the claim that is being rejected and which you have failed to support - is that the permit itself played any role in the crime. It didn't encourage or facilitate his actions in any way, and is thus immaterial to this specific tragedy.

To sum up: System failed? Yes. CCW permit relevant? No.

Now please, before hammering out yet another of your near-incoherent replies, read and reread what I've said here, and what was said earlier in the thread, as often and as carefully as it takes. I'd very much like to see you make, at long last, a meaningful or at least non-asinine contribution to the forum...

[MyrnaLoy]

53. and yet you

offer no suggestions, well except the shit happens defense. At least the permitting process and the hand gun is safe huh.

[petronius]

54. Another strong performance from you

:sarcasm:

Are those night classes you mentioned available in your area as well? 'Cause it wouldn't be a bad idea...

[gejohnston]

47. how did he get a permit

while being barred from possessing by federal law? Sounds like there is a problem with the county's or state's investigation process.

[SteveM]

33. Straw and errors...

"How to you propose to protect us from concealed weapon permit holders who kill?"

The number of "concealed weapon permit holders who kill" are how many? You claim this as a problem, so how many?

"You know. the one's law enforcement and the NRA thought were a good risk?"

How did the NRA get wrapped up in all of this? Do you have a cite?

Where is your cite for: "100% OF THE MURDERS SINCE 2007 WERE COMMITTED BY PEOPLE WITH CONCEALED WEAPON PERMITS!" And how many is that?

There is no guarantee of survival, Myrna, but if I were threatened by someone as Benoit was, I would arm myself. No LEO can guarantee one's safety, and everyone (whether you like it or not) has a right to due process. If LEOs, and the courts are at fault, please explain how they should have revoked Bustamante's CCW?

[ileus]

14. Instead of looking at them a human victims we'll view them as carbon footprint reductions...

Of course that's only if they should die....if they only get raped beatup or crippled well that's the price they pay for being polite to society.

[DWC]

16. Possible the BEST question / topic yet

I note the antis have yet to honestly respond with a viable plan or is it possible that they simply have no viable plan?

Semper Fi,

[GreenStormCloud]

20. They NEVER answer that question.

I have seen it asked in my forms several times and the antis always duck the question.

[iverglas]

23. "I note the antis have yet to honestly respond with a viable plan"

No, you disregard a decade of discussion in this forum, and everything that has ever been said anywhere else in the universe, and make shit up.

You lose.

[rl6214]

25. It's a valid question asked in THIS thread.

Not everyone has been here for a decade. Not everyone has posted their own opinions on this. There are new members that may want a chance to voice their opinions.

[DWC]

27. I will restate

In a decade of discussion in this forum, the antis have yet to honestly respond with a viable plan.

How's that?

Semper Fi,

[iverglas]

31. how's that?

In a decade of discussion in this forum, the antis have yet to honestly respond with a viable plan.

Well, how about: in however long you've been in this forum, you have yet to respond with anything that isn't false and stupid garbage.

Suit you?

[DWC]

35. When your BS fails - Again, & Again, & Again, &...

you misdirect and attack with more BS. How are those Alinsky's Rules working for you?

Lady, you are soooo predictable.

You can not answer the question.

Semper Fi,

[RSillsbee]

37. You can not answer the question.

It appears to me that none of our resident restrictionistas are able to answer the question

[DWC]

49. Their silence is deafening

n/t

[NewMoonTherian]

28. The likelihood of such cases is small enough...

that those deaths and injuries are an acceptable side effect of stringent gun regulation. Lacking guns, knives and "non-lethal" weapons, victims still have a number of options:

1.) Not being in the situation at all. The best way to escape injury at the hands of a criminal is not to be anywhere near one.

2.) Retreat. A single attacker can only effectively guard, at most, 180 degrees of your movement(unless said attacker is already physically engaging you, in which case see option 3). This leaves a full 180 degrees of potential retreat paths.

3.) Compliance. A violent criminal is attacking you because he wants something. Nothing you have is as valuable as his life, except your own, and would you really be able to live with yourself knowing that you killed another human being in order to save your own life?

4.) Attracting attention. Ideally, you shouldn't be anywhere alone(per option 1), and you certainly shouldn't be out of earshot of a large number of people unless you're also doing something underhanded. Scream, or use a personal alarm device or whistle.

5.) Improvised weapons. If you make the personal choice to defend your life, anything heavy and hard can be a perfectly effective weapon or defensive tool. An attacker armed with a gun or a knife will have an advantage, but under sufficiently strict controls, that should be very rare.

6.) Unarmed combat. Several unarmed martial arts styles include fighting against an armed attacker. Kempo is one, although the techniques of that style can be very inhumane. Use self-control and don't do permanent harm.

Given all these options, there should be very, very few deaths at the hands of violent criminals. And again, these are a predictable and acceptable consequence of removing deadly weapons from a dangerous, unpredictable civilian populace.



(Of course I'm writing this as a "devil's advocate" exercise. I hesitate to use the "sarcasm" tag, but suffice it to say this is NOT my position. For the purposes of this subthread, though, let's presume that it is.)

[ileus]

30. You forgot #7....Die it's the honorable thing to do

:)

[NewMoonTherian]

38. Ok, yes, but you never come out and say that. n/t

[ileus]

41. oops..my bad...I meant not live.

[NewMoonTherian]

44. But that's very unlikely.

With all the other options available, and with the great difficulty of acquiring lethal weapons(given ideal gun control laws), the odds against any citizen ever being harmed by a criminal are astronomical. It's just not a circumstance that bears discussion. People who choose to dwell on such an unlikely circumstance are suffering from paranoia.

[iverglas]

32. For the purposes of this subthread, though,

let's presume assume that you have no interest in civil discourse.

Just fixing your English there, if you will forgive the presumption. :rofl:

[NewMoonTherian]

36. Aw, cool. I learned something today!

Though it came as a hurtful remark, I'll use it to improve my writing.

As for civil discourse, I honestly don't have the patience. The usual Gungeon discourse is fine, so long as it's interesting.

[ileus]

55. I know......Sometimes you just draw the short straw, The weak get eaten.

We should learn to accept it....fighting back is so hateful and ugly.