How Do You Define 'Tactical"

[RSillsbee]

“Tactical” seems to be a bit of a buzzword around here. It also seems to be a word w/ some very negative connotations. The thing I see missing though is a sensible definition of the word.

When I was in the army(13B20) all my "tactical gear" was old , beat up ,& green ( except for my M-16A2) .The term "technically & tactically proficient" got thrown around a bit, but no one could actually define it. I always said technically proficient was doing your job well & tactically proficient was doing your job well when somebody's shooting at you. I also frequently observed that every piece of equipment the army issued me was designed to be used by an idiot who was being shot at. So that's pretty much my experience W/ "tactical" would any body care to clarify the term for me?

Definition of TACTICAL
1: of or relating to combat tactics: as a (1) : of or occurring at the battlefront <a tactical defense> <a tactical first strike> (2) : using or being weapons or forces employed at the battlefront <tactical missiles> b of an air force : of, relating to, or designed for air attack in close support of friendly ground forces
2a : of or relating to tactics: as (1) : of or relating to small-scale actions serving a larger purpose (2) : made or carried out with only a limited or immediate end in view b : adroit in planning or maneuvering

I don't see how the above relates to a rifle

[MineralMan]

1. In the work of firearms forums, "tactical"

is a term used by people who haven't worn a uniform. It just means "military-looking." Bogus. It's one of those buzzwords that people use to sell crap. Just one guy's opinion.

[RSillsbee]

2. "military-looking."

Does being "military-looking." change the function of a firearm? Would you consider an M1 carbine "tactical"? A Garand?

[MineralMan]

8. In the hands of a soldier, both are tactical weapons. In the hands of

a collector, no. Same with an M-16 or any other military weapon. Tactical is a military term. It doesn't apply to civilian use of a firearm. Sorry, but no sale.

[gejohnston]

10. I don't but this is from a guy

that thinks the M-1 carbine and any lever action is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[Hoyt]

3. It's a term used by gun marketers to get potential purchasers all worked up and drooling. Sells guns

to today's "gun culture." Without such terms, gunners look elsewhere.

[RSillsbee]

4. I'll ask you the same question

Does being "military looking" change the function of a rifle?

What does tactical actually mean? What makes a given rifle "Tactical"?

[Hoyt]

5. Doesn't have to mean anything as long as purchaser thinks it can kill "better." Then they buy.

[oneshooter]

14. Poor fellow, he tries and tries, but no help at all, bless his heart.

[RSillsbee]

16. If 'tactical" has no effect on the rifle's function

why do you care if I buy a million?

[MineralMan]

21. Personally, I don't care if they buy a million of them.

the word is still pretty meaningless, when applied to a firearm. For example, if I take my deer rifle into a military battle and use it to snipe enemy officers, it is a tactical weapon, because Im using it in a tactical way. If I take it to Wyoming to hunt deer, then it is a hunting weapon. It is not the appearance the defines the word, it is the use to which it is put.

As another example, if I take my fully accessorized AR-15 out to play war games with the local militia guys, it's a toy weapon, since we're not really doing anything with the weapons but playing pretend. Not the appearance, but the use.

[Hoyt]

27. The fact that "tactical" appeals to many gunners is reason enough to restrict them --

It's a catch 22, but if that junk turns one on, they shouldn't be allowed to have guns.

Too many gunners with militias, and what gun you gonna use during Hurricane Irene fellow gunners, on their mind. Quite dangerous for society.

[RSillsbee]

30. So If I happen to have a thing for M1As I'm good right? NT

[Hoyt]

36. Bolt action is where it's at.

[AtheistCrusader]

41. Okie-doke then.

[rl6214]

35. I'll bet you think your keyboard on your desktop in your moms

basement is tactical. We're not gonna try to get it restricted just because you think its tactical.

[ileus]

45. keyboard with a special load.

[gejohnston]

48. I don't have a militia

Do you have a militia?

[Hoyt]

50. Yea, but you were one of those concerned about gun one would use in aftermath of Irene. still sick.

[gejohnston]

51. umm no, you do not read closely

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=453972&mesg_id=454302

you help out the mothers and kids
Posted by gejohnston in Guns
Fri Aug 26th 2011, 12:41 PM
and share. I think a couple of major points are being missed. I fail to see the problem with always be prepared for the absolute worst. In disasters most come together as communities and help each other etc. There is always a few opportunistic predators.

What exactly is sick about that? Have you been reading too much Ayn Rand or something?

[SteveM]

63. Ah, the "turn on" school of bans. And here I thought it was a "Racks" model. nt

[rl6214]

33. Can't you answer a question without getting your shtick in there

[SteveM]

62. So what explains the sale of hundreds of thousands of Remington 742s?

[ileus]

70. I love my 742's....had a 243 and 30-06 before moving to a 270 BAR

[SteveM]

78. Probably jammed less, 'tho the successors to the Remington jam less. nt

[oneshooter]

79. I have a Browning BAR, 30-06. Damn heavy at 20lbs. n/t

[iverglas]

6. how do you define "boring"?

"Pointless"? "Inane"? "Silly"?

Here, first up on a google; ask these people:

http://www.albertatacticalrifle.com/index.html

Or here, one you will probably like better:

http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/tactical-families/tactical-centerfire.aspx

These people make/sell the things, so they should be able to explain, I'd think.

"One of those buzzwords that people use to sell crap" sounds reasonable to me.

Are we done, then?

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ileus]

13. It would be interesting if we were discussing AR parts and hardware.

[RSillsbee]

15. Here, first up on a google; ask these people:

Oddly enough these folks seem to specialize in accurizing single shot , bolt action , rifles.

[iverglas]

17. how would I or anyone know why REMINGTON has a page

that refers to its products as TACTICAL?

How would anyone?

Here's what it says, in case you ignored the link:

Tactical is more than just a type of gun or knife. Tactical is a state of mind. It’s knowing you have the right tool for the job, and the confidence to do it, regardless of how intense. In situations where tactical performance matters, why would you rely on anything but the best? Remington, tactically smart.

Seems to say it all. Or nothing at all. Whatever.

What is the point of this thread?

Does it have something to do with firearms policy that I'm missing?

[RSillsbee]

19. Does it have something to do with firearms policy that I'm missing?

Actually , yes it does. Did you not know that the AWB of '94 ( You know the one that gave control of the house to the pugs for a decade) concerned itsself w/ "Tactical" features on fire arms that had nothing to do w/ their function.

AR 15 (semiauto, magazing fed, gas operated .223/5.56mm rifle) was banned
Mini 14 (semiauto, magazing fed, gas operated .223/5.56mm rifle)wasn't

[iverglas]

22. spit those mealies out of your mouth

Was the word "tactical" used in the assault weapons ban legislation?

If you want to talk about "assault weapons" as defined for the purposes of that legislation, or the ban thereof, why don't you do that?

[SteveM]

66. You are missing a point big as a harpoon...

Don't much care whether "tactical" is used by a prohi- or not, but the focus on scary accouterments as a reason for bans is still with us.

"Only the names have changed to protect the innocent."

[ileus]

25. Hell the people the wrote the bill didn't know what an assault weapon was/is.

Isn't the Mini piston powered? And it's missing that cool pistol grip like the AR & AK.

[RSillsbee]

26. Isn't the Mini piston powered?

I thought gas I know there's a gas tube on mine.

[ileus]

29. but it operates a gas piston instead of being DI like the AR.

[Euromutt]

53. Well, yeah, but AKs and FALs use gas pistons as well

Hell, most gas-operated semi-automatic and full-automatic weapons use gas pistons; I can't think of any gas-operated weapon apart from the AR-15/M16 design that uses direct impingement.

[SteveM]

65. Well, we already have one poster upstream calling for a prohibition...

due to the "turn on" factor of these weapons. And given the recent inclination of politicians to ban stuff because it looks, well, "tactical," defining terms might be prudent.

You may recall that one noted gun banner intentionally played on the confusion people have concerning "assault rifles," "assault weapons," and "machine guns" to exercise his prohibitionism. And the apparent focus of other banners on accouterments attached to otherwise mundane semi-auto carbines (SEE: AWB).

[SteveM]

64. So, a 4-barrel carb and load-shocks in the rear. Not my taste.

[ileus]

7. that's tacticool for all you mall ninjas out there.

http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

[jeepnstein]

56. Mall Ninja is keeping us safe.

Sleep well, sheep, Mall Ninja is on the watch.

[Hoopla Phil]

9. If it looks cool, then it's tacticool!

Oh, it also has to be black.

[ileus]

11. or dark earth....all my goodies I buy in magpul dark earth.

[rl6214]

37. i've got an AR that's camo, greens with black and brown

I would think that would apply.

[Hoopla Phil]

40. I heard that Dark Earth is the new black. I sorry to say

that camo green went out in the 80's when black became the new camo green.

[Euromutt]

54. I'm so behind the times...

I'm very much an Olive Drab guy; I speak from experience when I say plain OD does a far better job of blending in with any terrain found in northern Europe than any camouflage pattern I've seen, including Woodland, British DPM, Dutch NGP and especially http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/00229.php">that weird Belgian "jigsaw" camo pattern. Maybe the German updated Flecktarn C (http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/00192.php) does a better job (I never encountered a German soldier out of the barracks), but I doubt it does.

[Hoopla Phil]

39. So your saying that Dark Earth is the new black?

I'm so yesterday. . .

[petronius]

18. In product descriptions, my first sense is that it means classical aesthetics have given

way to durability - synthetic stocks in place of nice wood, for example. Of course, that often turns into 'looking military', which is also an attraction to some shoppers. Either way, it's an odd and non-traditional meaning of the word...

[RSillsbee]

20. I can buy 100 year old wood stocked Mosins all day long

100 YO plactic stocked M16s? not so much

[MineralMan]

23. Yah, and if you do that all day, you might actually find one that's

a useful firearm. The one I have is inaccurate as the dickens, so I stopped buying ammo for it. I won't buy another.

[RSillsbee]

24. Let's see how good of shape YOU'RE in when you're 100 NT

[rl6214]

38. I've got half dozen or so Mosins and they are accurate as all

get out.

[PavePusher]

43. Many M-N's are decently accurate, and some remarkably so.

You do need to check head-spacing and condition of the bore as best as possible before buying.

[SteveM]

67. Flat black and synthetic is to me a bottom-of-the-boat shotgun. nt

[ileus]

28. So what would be the ultimate tactical firearm?

[RSillsbee]

31. I think that's a question for the outdorr life forum NT

[ileus]

32. You're right.....corrected.

[Euromutt]

55. That, too, depends on circumstances and application

After all, a lot of MOUT/FIBUA/CQB-type stuff takes place indoors...

[PavePusher]

44. Depends entirely on circumstances and application. n/t

[ileus]

34. Here's a real link to something tacticool

http://www.thinkgeek.com/homeoffice/kitchen/e7b4/?cpg=168NP&link

[AtheistCrusader]

42. Not hard-defined terminology.

In my assessment, it suggests the weapon has duty-purpose features, not related to recreational hunting. Either military or law-enforcement type functionality.


This is not to say a hunting rifle cannot also benefit from some of these features, like a folding stock, or certain types of slings, but they were developed for use by military/LEO, not civilian hunting. Which represents a shift from more early firearms, where the principle driver of long gun design, was hunting, not LEO/Army duty.

A bayonet lug, has little utility for hunting, for instance.

[Euromutt]

52. AC's nailed it, in my opinion

It might be added that this usage of the term "tactical" is by no means restricted to firearms (and their accessories) themselves, but also applies to clothing, footwear, etc.

Compare a typical "tactical" vest to, say, a turkey-hunting vest: the "tactical" vest has things like pockets sized for STANAG magazines, an interior pocket for a radio, a velcro loop for holding a police badge, etc. whereas the turkey vest has pockets made to hold turkey calls and the only directly firearm-related feature that one pocket has elastic loops to hold five or six shotgun shells. Vests made for hunting deer and elk are generally blaze orange, and there's nothing "tactical" about orange.

In short, "tactical"(/"tacticool") describes features intended for use in armed confrontations with other humans, as opposed to hunting or competitive shooting.

[DWC]

57. Best Definition Yet. Thanks! n/t

[benEzra]

72. Eh, I think I'd disagree with this statement:

Which represents a shift from more early firearms, where the principle driver of long gun design, was hunting, not LEO/Army duty.

I'm not aware of any period in firearm history in which both military and civilian use didn't together drive firearm design, and IMO the most profound developments on the civilian side have come from the self-defense market and "practical" shooting.

Lever-action hunting rifles were developed as military weapons, then transitioned to hunting. So did bolt-action rifles, originally developed to kill human beings at extreme ranges, but which became the dominant civilian hunting rifles of the mid to late twentieth century. Going back, I'm pretty sure matchlocks, flintlocks, and wheellocks were originally developed for military/LE/self-defense use, rather than hunting.

Certainly developments in the civilian world have in turn made military/LE firearms better, e.g. civilian-developed red-dot optics that are now almost universal on U.S. infantry rifles, or the Mauser 1898 --> Remington M700 --> M24/M40 Sniper Weapon System evolution, or the developments in LE patrol rifles and LE pistols, or the ways that civilian practical firearms training and IPSC/3-gun competition have filtered down to improve LE/.mil training and equipment.

In my view, hunting has been at most a niche contributor to *.mil/LE small arms design overall, with the possible exception of the pump shotgun.

[oneshooter]

74. Sorry but"Lever-action hunting rifles were developed as military weapons, "

is wrong. They were developed as a self defense weapon for the civilian market. The military looked at them, and tested them, but never adopted them for general issue. The only ones that came close were the "Volcanic" rifles built by Winchester, which were issued in very limited numbers. The ammo was difficult and expensive to produce and never kept up with demand. And the Spencer repeater, slower to fire and only a 7 round magazine, with only a 400yrd max range. It was replaced with a general issue single shot, the Trapdoor rifle and carbine.
Most General Officers of the time considered the lever action repeater too fragile and caused too much ammo to be expended. The only reason some were given to troops was the a fellow by the name of A. Lincoln liked them. They came too little and too late to have any real effect on the course of the war.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[benEzra]

76. I'm pretty sure that the original intent of the Volition/Volcanic was antipersonnel, not hunting.

Perhaps I should have said "antipersonnel use rather than hunting" since I was thinking not just military service, but civilian self defense and defense of home, and the early lever-actions were definitely optimized for the latter. I note that the original Rocket Ball ammunition the system was conceptualized around was ballistically comparable to modern .25 ACP, making the platform ill-suited for hunting, and the later Volcanics came in handgun and rifle variants chambered in pretty decent defensive calibers.



And I'm almost certain the Spencer was developed not just as an antipersonnel weapon, but with the intent of military use, even if it ultimately didn't serve long in that role thanks to unusually fossilized thinking in the military at that time.

Certainly the evolution of the Volition/Volcanic/Henry/Winchester eventually resulted in a very capable hunting weapon, but it was not originally so, and I think the Winchester 1873's 15-round magazine suggests that even for it, defensive use was still a major design criteria.

[RSillsbee]

75. A bayonet lug, has little utility for hunting, for instance.

Clearly, you've never hunted wild hog

[MyrnaLoy]

46. tactical in the sense

of running down to the store for milk? I define it as stupid then.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

47. to me a tactic is

An expedient for achieving a goal; a maneuver.


tactic is a noun -- adding 'al' makes it an adjective

therefore (to me )

tactical would be a word used to describe how I accomplished a project.

it doesn't necessarily have to equate with military.

so what I am saying is that I agree with you.

the word does not have to relate to a rifle.

[DissedByBush]

49. You call something "tactical" and then add 50% to the price n/t

[SteveM]

68. LOL! Car afficienados call added stuff "go fast equipment." nt

[Ready4Change]

58. As an adverb or an adjective? Or in sales? In forums?

As an adverb, it is a modifier used to indicate movements or actions used in combat. (A tactical retreat.)

As an adjective, it indicates that an object is intended for use in combat. (A tactical rifle)

In sales, it can just be a word on packaging, or paint or other design feature meant to imbue a semblance of combat purpose on an object, all with the purpose of enhancing sales. (The Ronco Lemon Squeezer. It's Tactical!)

In forums, it is used by immature military fanboys to indicate that something is highly desirable (That tactical lemon squeezer is so hot!) or to trigger ironically militant anti-gunners to a frothing rage (Only the police or military should have lemon squeezers, regardless of how 'tactical' they might be!)

[-..__...]

59. When TEOTWAWKI is looming on the horizon...

nothing beats having a "Tactical Wheelbarrow"
as part of your "go time" gear...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR7wwkDEcWs

[rrneck]

61. LOL! Live footage from the landscaping wars. nt

[philly_bob]

60. I hoped discussion would be on "strategy" v. "tactics,"

a distinction that has always confused me.

From years of seeing the terms used in various contexts, I gather "strategy" is long-term big picture and "tactics" is short-term small-picture.

I invite you ex-military to expound further on strategy v. tactics.

[Euromutt]

77. Well, maybe I can be of some help

The distinction between "strategy" and "tactics" is a blurry one, and lower-level strategy can blend into higher-level tactics, so it's more two ends of a continuum, rather than two distinct concepts. It probably helps if I explain that "strategy" is derived from the Greek strategos, meaning "general," as in the commander of a (city) state's entire field army. Accordingly, strategy involves planning how to destroy the enemy (city) state's army's ability to fight a war: do we wear the enemy down by attrition, do we try to cut his sources of supply (food, fodder/fuel, ammunition), etc. Tactics is the implementation of strategy; in other words, strategy sets what the objectives are, whereas tactics is the process of how those objectives are to be met.

Thing is, this was all somewhat straightforward when lack of communications technology only allowed a given state to field and coordinate one army, with a fleet, if any, as an auxiliary to that army. Certainly since the Napoleonic era, however, countries have been able to simultaneously field multiple armies on multiple fronts/"theaters," so since the American Civil War at least, the term "strategy" has devolved somewhat to apply to theaters of war (such as, in World War Two, the "Eastern Front," the North African/Mediterranean Theater of Operations, etc.) rather than to planning warfare at a national level, for which the term "grand strategy" was accordingly developed.

The distinction does become somewhat more clear when you see the terms applied to air power, and nuclear weapons. In WWII, "strategic bombing" involved destroying (or at least disrupting) stuff far behind the front lines, like the enemy's manufacturing capability, major railroad junctions, etc. whereas "tactical" bombing involved directly striking at the enemy's troops, and their immediate supply lines. Even so, the blurring becomes evident when you ask whether striking a key railroad bridge a hundred miles or more behind the front line, the destruction of which will primarily affect resupply to combat units, is a "strategic" or "tactical" bombing.

Still, hopefully this helps get the broad lines of the concepts across.

[dmallind]

69. usually "black chunky and overpriced" to be honest. nt

[spin]

71. A couple of pictures might show the difference ...

This is a tactical knife.


Cold steel SRK

SRK
Specifications:
Steel: AUS 8A Stainless Steel
Blade: 6"
Handle: 4 3/4"
Overall: 10 3/4"
Thick: 3/16"
Weight: 8.2oz.
Sheath: Secure-Ex

**********

This is a hunting or sporting knife.




Bark River Teddy

The Specs are as Follows:

Overall Length: 11.375 Inches
Blade Length: 6.250 Inches
Cutting Edge Length :5.36 Inches
Blade Steel: A-2
Hardness: 58 rc
Blade Spine Thickness: .215 Inch
Guard Material: 6061 Aircraft Aluminum
Pommel Material: 6061 Aircraft Aluminum
Weight 11 Ounces
Sheath weight:3.375 Ounces
Combined Weight: 14.375 Ounces

[Glassunion]

73. Anything with a laser or a red dot optic. Or bacon.