Utah Boy Critical after Gun Range Negligence

[mikeb302000]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705389892/Boy-shot-at-gun-range-reportedly-showing-positive-signs.html">The Deseret News reports

A 15-year-old boy was taken to the hospital Saturday afternoon in extremely critical condition after accidentally shooting himself in the head with a .45-caliber handgun while target shooting with his father at the Wasatch Shooters Association Public Shooting Range.

Some 15-year-olds are small and frail, others are strapping young men. I don't know about this one, but regardless of his physical ability to handle a .45, which not all 15-year-olds can, we can probably assume the dad had provided some instructions beforehand.

Education is the key, the pro-gun crowd keeps telling us. Teaching young people about muzzle and trigger control is all it takes. How many personal accounts have we read of gun bloggers who learned from their dads when they were young?

Well, what I say is it's all in the percentages. Like everything else, the vast majority is fine, but you're always going to have that minority that isn't.

As a general rule, I'd say no 15-year-old kid should be handed a .45 caliber handgun and expected to handle it safely. There are exceptions to that rule, but unfortunately this story is not one of them.

What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/">(cross posted at Mikeb302000)

[rl6214]

1. Each of my 3 sons could handle a .45 just fine at 15

Thankyou Dan Rather.

Unrec for your posting from italy

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maine_Nurse]

7. Why an idiot? I don't get it.nt

[mikeb302000]

4. my avatar is The Polish Rider

why don't you suspect that I'm really in Warsaw?

[rl6214]

26. what avatar

your profile says italy, duh

[ileus]

11. you're a responsible father....good on you for teaching your kids.

[petronius]

2. If "the vast majority is fine," then this event actually IS the exception to the rule, right?

Are you sure you thought that through all the way? :shrug:

(Sad story - hope the boy recovers fully.)

[mikeb302000]

5. yes I thought it through

The majority is fine, but the monority is too big.

[cleanhippie]

15. How do you expect to have a successful blog if you cannot even spell minority?

:rofl:


I guess that explains why its not successful at all!

:rofl:




Unrec for blog spamming.

[petronius]

19. What is your best estimate of the size of that minority? So far, we have one tragic

and highly unusual accident, from which you conclude that the minority is "too big" and derive your general rule that 15 year-olds shouldn't shoot .45s. So perhaps you can walk us through your thinking process - considering how many teens shoot, the frequency of accidents like the OP must be somewhere far below 1%. Which means that the 'exceptions to the rule' must be in the 99+% range. An un-biased observer would suspect the exact opposite of what you did (although a thoughtful person would want to know what the accident frequency really is, and to compare it to the rates from other teen leisure activities).

So do you see why I question whether you've thought it through, and why your OP is little other than a knee-jerk "guns is bad!" bit of fluff?

[mikeb302000]

42. c'mon man, we've been arguing for a couple weeks

now and you ask me that.

I wrote http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2009/06/famous-10.html">The Famous 10% a long time ago. Now I think http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2011/08/my-official-goal.html">the percentage is higher.

[rrneck]

43. Write it here

instead if trying to tease people to your blog. Has Arianna Huffington responded to your resume yet?

[petronius]

44. Is 10% your answer? Just so we're clear, the topic is the size of that minority

of teens shooting large handguns who have serious or fatal accidents...

[SteveM]

31. "the rise of small breweries and vintners has weakened the hold of distributo..."

[Orrex]

6. This tragedy would have been prevented if only the boy had been armed

Oh, wait a minute.

[jmg257]

8. My opinion is to load only 1 round at a time in semi-autos for first timers.

Enough examples of such arms 'getting away' from those not used to handling them with proper trigger control.

[spin]

23. That's the way I trained my daughter ...

However, she still prefers revolvers to semi-auto pistols.

And to be honest so do I except for my .22 Ruger Target Pistol.

[jmg257]

25. I tell ya Spin, it is obvious now, but wasn't something I gave alot of thought to.

Until that Uzi story. My son was shooting 1911s and .41 mags before he was 12 (did surprisingly well).

I also taught some mixed-age relatives who were 1st timers just a few weeks ago.

I think that '1 round at a time' to start them off is a great safety step.

[spin]

28. It is definitely a good idea ...

I believe for all ages at least for the first several shots.

[Hoyt]

30. Problem is most teenagers have heard the gunners, seen ads, etc., so blasting away with fully loaded

mags is what they want to do . . . . . . just to be like all the other gunners out there (including dads) practicing and toting to shoot someone.

[SteveM]

33. "..blasting away with fully loaded" sounds like nightly T.V. cop drama, Hoyt. nt

[Hoyt]

37. No, it sounds like what gunners promote to impressionable young people and the gullible.

[SteveM]

38. "sounds like." To you. In your imagination. Consider:

You will be hard-pressed to find more than a few examples of civilians shot with a full-auto weapon over the last 10 years; maybe one (1) person. But you can see many, many times that in one night of T.V.-watching.

I would point out that most shooting ranges forbid "rapid fire" (no more than one shot per second). There are exceptions on private ranges (club members). And I don't know of anyone who promotes this "to impress young people and the gullible." Try game makers.

But you have your imagination and your T.V.

[jmg257]

40. It is fun to let lose with a mag full of 9mm. Practicing good sight picture all the while of course.

Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

Fast AND accurate are golden.

That is exactly what practice is for.

[jmg257]

39. What they want is one thing. How they learn to get there is another.

Gotta walk before you can run. And SAFETY FIRST!!!

[SteveM]

32. Yep. My Dad taught us by first shooting one round -- out of a revolver. nt

[Straw Man]

46. Your opinion is shared.

My opinion is to load only 1 round at a time in semi-autos for first timers.

That's what the NRA teaches in its Basic Pistol class.

[ileus]

9. my kids are 7&9 I don't let them shoot my pistols...

My only 45 is a compact, I figure my son will be sized ok to shoot it by 15. However.com a wound to the head isn't an indication of a gun being too large for the shooter...it's a sign of not keeping the first 1-3 rules of gun handling.

[DissedByBush]

41. I have a .22 for the young ones

Small gun too, so it fits their hands. Single action revolver, really safe for beginners.

But at about 10 my oldest daughter was loving double-taps with the .380 ACP.

BTW, when doing that I found a great tool for teaching kids. I recorded video of their shooting and played it back for them slow-motion at home. It really helps them see where their mistakes are.

[gejohnston]

10. you see a lot in a few paragraphs

what specifically happened? Is the caliber relevant? Where I'm from, most 12 year olds handle rifles more powerful than any handgun. Was he adhering to the standard safety rules? If not, caliber does not matter.

[jmg257]

13. I think it is alot harder to shoot yourself in the head when firing a rifle,

then it is when firing a heavy semi-auto handgun with a 4.5# trigger pull and a heavy recoil.

I do not know what really happened, but like that kid who sprayed himself with an uzi, it is easy enough to see how he might have unintentionally double tapped - 1 on the target, one after recoil spun the gun up and over a bit.

Either that or he was looking down at the muzzel end and for some reason squeezed...also not too hard to imagine.


Edit: shoot - made assumption '.45 caliber handgun' was a 1911. Do NOT know for sure.

[gejohnston]

24. I get that

but .45 recoil is not that great at lest not to me at 15. My has no problem with a 500. the kid with the micro uzi could not control the climb, it was full auto. The kid's elbows would have to bend.
Could be a SA other than some of the new model Rugers. Finished reloading and thumb slipped going from half cock to full cock.
just a guess.

[jeepnstein]

12. I know someone who was there that day.

He said it's not exactly clear how the kid managed to do what he did. He was under the direct supervision of his father. They were doing everything "right". It just goes to show you that these things can and do happen, with tragic results.

My prayers go out to the boy and his family. And my thanks go out to the people who provided first aid to the boy.

[Atypical Liberal]

14. NO. THE KID FELL DOWN AND THE GUN WENT OFF.

For Pete's sake, did you even read the article you linked to?

It has a link to this article:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705389879/Boy-15-is-very-critical-after-accidental-shooting-at-gun-range.html

"According to witnesses on scene, it looks like he was sitting at the target benches and standing and shooting and he went to sit down," Poulsen said, explaining that the seats on the benches swing. "The swing had swung out of the way. He didn't have a place to sit and he fell back ... the gun accidentally discharged."

This is not an issue of someone improperly handling a gun. This has nothing to do with age.

The kid went to sit down in some kind of swing-away seat only to discover that the seat had somehow swung away - his seat had been pulled out from under him.

This was a freak accident, nothing more.

That said, I was shooting from the age of 8. I own a .45 ACP and reload for it and shoot it regularly.

There is absolutely no reason at all why nearly anyone, male or female, 15 years old cannot handle a .45 ACP with no problem.

[ileus]

21. I can see that happening....the seats at the range I shoot at swing for LT/RT hand shooters.

[cleanhippie]

16. Unrec for blog flogging and hypocrisy.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. Before I started squealing about this, I would want to know a lot more

Then again, the facts are not this posters style or interest.

Gun range accidents are rare. As an instructor I would be interested in know what went wrong.

As far as when someone can handle a particular pistol, I doubt the poster has even handled one himself.

I first qualified with the 1911a when was 15

[Atypical Liberal]

27. READ THE ARTICLE.

As an instructor I would be interested in know what went wrong.

The article contains a link to an update that tells exactly what went wrong.

The range is equipped with swing-away chairs. The kid went to sit down and the seat swung away, so he fell on his butt, no doubt flailing as he went. The gun went off and he shot himself in the head.

This accident has nothing to do with handling firearms or even being 15.

It's about falling down while holding a gun. It could happen to anyone.

[SteveM]

36. Gotcha. I think there are many who get tired of dealing with the OP. nt

[Remmah2]

18. Based on the percentages theory.

Teens have a significantly higher chance of killing themselves while driving. Teens need to learn how to drive as well as safely handle power tools and firearms. Teens are more likely to get injured and die in high school sporting accidents.

By the percentages theory this is an obscure accident of which the media loves to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

[GreenStormCloud]

20. Your general rule would be wrong. N/T

[jmg257]

22. I'd say no 11 year olds should ride ferris wheels, 15 yr olds shouldn't ride in trucks,

and 12 year olds shouldn't bull ride. They all might fall by accident.


"An 11-year-old girl died today after falling from a Ferris wheel on the New Jersey shore, the Cape May County prosecutor's office said."

"xx xxx, 15, of xxx died Monday morning after he was taken off life support at the University of Michigan Hospital. He was fatally injured after falling from a truck."

"A 12-year-old boy died at Longmont United Hospital after being stomped on during a bull ride at the Boulder County Fairgrounds Sunday morning."

"18-year-old xx xxx died when he fell down a canyon after snowboarding out of bounds."

"23-year-old Kyle Cryblsky was killed while trying to land a jump in a popular terrain park at Mt.Hood Meadows."

I guess we could all just keep our kids in bubbles till they turn 18 - oops, make that 21, oops make that ??, then they can magically be released, aware of everything they need to enjoy life without mishap.


What's your opinion?
(besides how sad it is having to cherry-picking bits & pieces from other people's tragedies to fuel your personal agenda. Though if others learn from it, so be it.)

[S_B_Jackson]

29. For once you aptly name the problem - negligence.

However you then veer off into a land of ignorance. A 15 year old should have no problem handling a .45 handgun....my son and my nephew, as well as my daughter and my niece shoot and are quite competent with all of my .45 caliber firearms as well as my Ruger in .454 Casul - they've been shooting them since they were all 13.

My niece - a pretty little slip at 5'4" & 95 pounds soaking wet - prefers to shoot the Ruger to all other of my pistols and has asked for it when she turns 21. I hate to give it up, but she's quite the charmer and she's dead-on accurate with it...so it's going to be hers if that's still her wish in 3 1/2 years.

[Atypical Liberal]

34. GAH - READ THE ARTICLE

No, this is not negligence at all!

Read the article! It links to an update, which I linked to above.

The range is equipped with some sort of seating that swings out/away. The kid was shooting, then going and sitting down. He went to sit down, and the bench swung or had swung out of the way, so he sat down on nothing and fell to the ground, no doubt flailing as he went, and the gun went off.

Betcha someone gets sued over the seats.

[S_B_Jackson]

47. GAH - I DID. And no matter how you slice it, it remains negligence.

You set your weapon down on the tray/bench, take your seat (or stand up if you were previously seated), and when you are ready to resume shooting you once again take control of the weapon.

This isn't the fault of swing-away seating, this is a failure to safely handle a firearm against a reasonably foreseeable accident....could have just as easily happened with a folding metal chair or a wooden stool, if one didn't sit upon it squarely or if one's feet got tangled.

Plain and simple, this was a case of negligence on the part of the shooter, as well as his father. Were I on the jury of such a suit, I would find for the range and against the plaintiffs.

[SteveM]

35. 454? Got, what a hand-buster. I had to put Hogues on my old .357. nt

[ileus]

45. Well I'm off to the range...wish me luck.

[PavePusher]

48. Don't sit down... 8>) n/t