GOP's (moran) Gun Raffle In Giffords' District Sparks Hot Debate

[jpak]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/09/02/140139879/gops-gun-raffle-in-giffords-district-sparks-hot-debate

The Pima County (Arizona) (edit: moran) Republican Party's decision to raffle off a Glock 23 .40-caliber handgun has generated some sharp criticism because not only is Pima County part of Democratic Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' district, but also because the gun used in January to kill six people and wound 13 others, including Giffords, was a Glock.

As the Arizona Republic writes, "Democrats and other critics, including at least one (edit: moran) GOP official, say the Pima County Republican Party is exhibiting insensitivity."

Michael McNulty, Giffords' campaign chairman, tells the Republic he is "struggling for the words to describe my reaction." Jeff Rogers, chairman of the Pima County Democratic Party, says the raffle shows "a rather stunning lack of judgment and sensitivity."

Mike Shaw, the Pima County GOP (edit: moran) interim chairman, tells the newspaper he's surprised by such criticism because Giffords owns a Glock and, he says, because the gun "is no more responsible for those deaths and the congresswoman's injuries than a No. 2 pencil is responsible for cheating on a test."

<more>

douchebags

yup

[DrDan]

1. not sure anything could be more blatantly obscene

I am sure it will be strongly defended by some here

[We_Have_A_Problem]

3. Asking this question sincerely....

What is obscene?

It is one of the more popular pistols on the planet. So what if a criminal used it? If someone had driven a Chevy into the crowd instead, would you be as upset if a Chevy was raffled off?

[DrDan]

8. you don't find it obscene that the same type weapon used to kill 6 and wound 13 is

being raffled in the area of shooting - 8 months after the shooting?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

9. Nope.

Its simply the same brand - which isn't surprising considering the popularity of Glock. Even if it were the exact same model, hell, even if it were the actual pistol, it still isn't obscene. (although the actual gun would be a little weird to raffle off).

Its just an inert lump of plastic and metal. Nothing more.

Honestly, getting worked up over it is what I find kinda silly. Its not that different than the way some preliterate people would react to an item they believed to have magical powers...

[DrDan]

17. not worked up - I just recognize it for what it is - an obscene gesture

[ileus]

22. maybe so if he was including a couple of promag 33's...

but he's not...

What about gun shoppes in the area? I'm sure they've sold lots of glocks since then. That's just business.


This raffle is just another fund raiser...


Money makes the world go round

[We_Have_A_Problem]

28. Still don't see it.

Of course, I don't impart some magical power to a lump of metal and plastic. To me it is simply a tool.

For fuck's sake - it isn't even the same model or caliber - it is merely the same brand.

[MADem]

42. Really? You don't see it? Well, we sure DO have a problem.

It's what's called "INSENSITIVE" at a minimum.

But hey, you go ahead and find it "silly." Don't be surprised if others have an interesting regard for you and your ability to nuance, either.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

47. What is so insensitive?

Pretend Loughner had driven a Chevy Malibu into the crowd and killed/injured just as many people. Would you consider it insensitive if they were raffling off a Chevy Impala SS?

Of course not - unless you just had a real hard-on against cars.

Same thing here. Glock is a very popular brand.



BTW - i do see what you're upset about. I also realize that the faux outrage is just that - faux outrage. You're finding a way to get upset over something because otherwise its a big fat nothing.

[MADem]

65. Yes, I would. The fact that you had to stretch and edit your post, and still

come up with a total loser of an analogy says an awful lot about you.

If Loughner, as I said elsewhere, had hit her with an axe, and they raffled off an axe, it would be the same sort of ruthless, childish, assholish insensitivity that the GOP are famous for--and that you, puzzlingly, are endorsing with enormous self-satisfaction.

You are obtuse, and I do believe you are DELIBERATELY obtuse.

Keep up the good work. By your words we shall know you.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

70. The anaolgy is spot on.

Glock is a brand of pistol.

Chevrolet is a brand of car.

Loughner used a Glock 19 - a specific model from the brand Glock.

In my analogy, I postulated the Chevy Malibu as a specific model.

The auction is for a Glock 23 - a completely different model from the brand Glock.

in my analogy, I used the Chevy Impala SS as an example of a completely different specific model.

So, maybe you can show me exactly what is wrong with the analogy?

Try to stay focused on the point of your poutrage would you? First its about the similarity in the brand of gun, then its about the fact that it isn't made in the US. Make up your mind.

[MADem]

76. It's a spot-on FAIL on your part.

A Glock pistol is a Glock pistol, and a Chevy is a Chevy.

You need to try and stay focused on your behavior. You're showing your scanties at this point. Poutrage? Please!

:rofl:

[We_Have_A_Problem]

79. I see the concept of "analogy" is lost on you.

Here...this may help (straight from Dictionary.com)

a·nal·o·gy

noun, plural -gies.
1. a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.

That's the first definition. You're more than welcome to click this link http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/analogy and peruse the rest of them.

Calm down, read what is actually being said, and stop getting your knickers in a twist over what is not being said.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

82. I do believe...

...you specifically referred to my "loser analogy", not a "loser similarity".

I agree, one Glock is similar to another, as one Chevy is similar to another. In fact, the very reason I chose the two cars I did in the analogy is because of the relative similarity, which further bolsters the analogy.

Care to try again?

[MADem]

84. The analogy is a loser because it proves my point, not yours.

Try to keep up.

The one who needs to "try again" is you.

[rl6214]

94. Same brand, not the same type

The loughner gun was a Glock 9mm, this is a Glock .40 ca. That's like saying a Chevy Camaro is the same type of car as a Chevy Corvette.

[RSillsbee]

102. He asked you a question , a very specific one

Do you care to respond?

[Francis Marion]

10. What does the behavior of a criminal

have to do with the rest of us?

Because one criminal chose to use a gun to kill, what does that fact have to do with other people who may choose to obtain a gun?

The only obscenity here is to give up any right that a criminal happens to have abused.

A stigmatizing prejudice against the motives and choices of The American People is out of place.

The criminal drove a car to the event. If he had plowed his car into the crowd, would you say that all car sales need to stop in the state?

The shame, censure and punishment belong with the criminal- not with us.

[DrDan]

18. thank you

provides validity to my comment

[We_Have_A_Problem]

29. Not really....

Unless what he said means something different in your world.

To me, his comment indicates the foolishness of seeing a problem with this.

[MADem]

2. DELIBERATELY offensive. But that's what they are. nt

[pansypoo53219]

13. i truly believe they picked Glock on purpose.

publikkklans do not do subtle. i bet they were giggling when they had he idea too. like beavis + butthead.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

14. Yeah they probably did

Its the most popular brand on the market right now. That might have had SOMETHING to do with it.

[DrDan]

19. of course they did - this is no coincidence

[MADem]

41. Concur. nt

[burf]

118. Not exactly

I watched the interview with the GOP chairman yesterday on CNN. His story was the Glock was raffled off last year but the winner has not come forward so they decided to raffle it off again. The quote went:

In an interview on CNN's "American Newsroom," Pima County GOP Chairman Mike Shaw defended the raffle, saying it's a tradition the group has had for years.

"The person who won the raffle last time hasn't picked it up yet," Shaw said. "So we decided to raffle it again."


http://www.news8000.com/news/politics/County-GOP-in-Giffords-district-raffles-handgun/-/1032/480750/-/6etvdqz/-/index.html

[PavePusher]

132. Funny how the FULL STORY....

will deflate the faux hysteria du jour....

[Atypical Liberal]

142. If that was really their intent...

If that was really their intent, they would have picked the same model of pistol also.

[ensho]

4. gun insanity

nt

[We_Have_A_Problem]

6. I agree....

It is completely insane to get upset over something like this.

[ileus]

7. looked at a 23 yesterday with a 357 and 9mm barrels...

NIB at my dealer slightly over 900 bucks...come with on 9mm magazine and two 40/357's mags. Really nice package...

[ileus]

5. The raffle in our area is for a 1911 this time. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

NRA not goopers...

My supervisors wife won the last one really nice target MKII Ruger.

One of these days it'll be my lucky day....maybe this time around.

[PavePusher]

11. I won a RRA LRA-15, in M4-gery configuration, two years ago.

With an EOTech sight, for that long-range, shoot'em-in-the-back-while-they-run-away-unarmed sniper capability. :sarcasm:

I really need to get a .22 upper for it...

[ileus]

20. Now that is a true win....congrats.

I want a 6.8 upper to hunt with...everytime I get close I buy something else. :(

[X_Digger]

21. Don't even need a new upper, just a new bolt

CMMG makes one now, as does spike's. You may have to clean your gas tube a bit more frequently, but otherwise, works like a champ.

http://www.primaryarms.com/product.sc?productId=968&categoryId=95

And I'll remind you, we never did get pictures of that RRA :)

[ileus]

23. I bought one of the elcheapo PA reddots a couple of years ago.

It's served me well killing paper, and one deer.

[oneshooter]

87. I put a $30 BSA red dot on my Loving Wifes HP995 carbine, she loves it! n/t

[RSillsbee]

105. Red dot?

You know you're going to Hell for that right?

[oneshooter]

111. She said that it a great help in hitting

running, dodging targets at 600-1000 yards with her 9mm carbine.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[RSillsbee]

112. Isn't that why evil toters

use evil red dots on their evil 9 mm death machines?

[oneshooter]

117. Must get a lot of practice at 600 to 1000yds. That 9mm drops a lot. n/t

[PavePusher]

49. Oops, my bad. I'll get 'em up this weekend.

Hmmm, maybe I can make an OP about this.... :think:

[ileus]

56. I saw DPM's for 645 at two different shops today...AR's prices have leveled off.

[rl6214]

95. I've got this conversion, love it...

allows you to get in lots of practice at a low cost and allows the wife and kids to enjoy shooting the ARs without the recoil and noise.

[rrneck]

12. Disaster Capitalism at its finest. nt

[DissedByBush]

15. This is a horrible raffle. I don't like Glocks.

Perhaps if they'd auctioned a Sig or a Kimber...

[We_Have_A_Problem]

16. I'm with ya there...

Especially the Kimber...

[ileus]

24. Ummmmmm... sig ...... kimberrrrrrr

but a glock would be a nice prize if it was free.. ..right? LOL

[DissedByBush]

26. I'd trade it in

Seriously. I don't like the grip or the overall weighting.

Technically they are excellent handguns, but they aren't for me.

[Common Sense Party]

37. Same here. I got the Springfield XDm because I didn't like the Glock

Glock just didn't feel right in my hand.

[ileus]

58. I bought an M&P compact because feel in my hand. FWIW

[oneshooter]

88. Thats why I carry a SIG. Just feels right. n/t

[rl6214]

96. I did the same...

I got the XD45 and I love it.

[flamin lib]

25. For those who can't see the full on idiocy and impropriety

of this raffle, suppose Ms Giffords almost died because she fell off a 6' ladder. Wouldn't you be able to see the in-your-face approval of injuring a political opponent by raffling off 6' ladders?

Because it's a gun and because gun ownership in the U.S. approaches the fervor of fundamental religion some here are completely tone deaf and blind to what is so painfully obvious to most thinking people.

[DissedByBush]

27. Circumstances rule

If they'd never done a raffle before.

If they raffled during a fundraiser for a Giffords opponent.

If they made a big deal of specifically raffling a Glock 19 with a 33 round magazine.

Then, yes, I would agree it's sickeningly inappropriate.

But none of that is true.

[flamin lib]

32. Say three Hail Glocks as penance and your sight will be restored . . .nt

[petronius]

36. Raffling a ladder would be obvious, since I doubt any political group has raffled a 6' ladder

in all the history of humanity. But using firearms in fund-raisers is not uncommon - another article even said this particular GOP group has done it before - so no, it's not improper at all really (if anything, the "OMG it's a gun!" blindness better describes those who are objecting.)

All I really see here is manufactured outrage aimed at a political opponent. Which is fine, it's funny to see 'baggers get lambasted fairly or unfairly, but lets be honest about it among ourselves anyway...

[Common Sense Party]

38. I think it's tacky.

But--sincere question here--when do you think it would be okay to have such a gun raffle? How much time will have to elapse before it would be acceptable?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

40. To some...

..forever would be too soon.

[MADem]

43. Oh, horseshit. Why would "pro-murican" GOP-ers raffle an AUSTRIAN weapon, except to

wave a big middle finger at the constituency of a gunned-down representative who will deal with the effects of that shooting for the rest of her life?

You are obtuse.

[X_Digger]

45. A majority of cops carry glocks..

Do you think they're 'waving a big middle finger' at someone, too?

:eyes:

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

46. Doesn't matter that it is Austrian

It is still the most popular brand in the US, if not the world.

[MADem]

52. Yes, it does matter. If the President wore a tie made in France, he'd get his ass handed to him.

But it's "OK" for the GOP to raffle off a non-USA made product?

Please.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

55. The President...

...just drove around the country in a pair of buses made in Canada and nobody cared.

I'm positive he wears clothes made outside the US and nobody cares.

Your outrage has NOTHING to do with the fact that it wasn't made in the United States. That is merely a case of you finding one more piece of data about which you can pretend to be offended.



On the other side of that - many Glock models ARE made in the US. The parent company is Austrian, but that doesn't mean they aren't manufactured here.

[MADem]

59. Oh bull. The rules for the GOP are different than the rules for the Dems.

The President does not "drive around the country in a bus" (or a pair of them) either. He rides on Air Force ONE, which was made in the USA. Does he own these buses? No. Is he raffling them off as a political fundraiser? NO. Did he use them to run over a Republican congressman? NO.

Bottom line--if the Democrats did the same thing, raffling off a Glock, in a GOP congressional district, shortly after the Republican representing that district was shot with a Glock, Limbaugh would be shitting bricks, screaming, yelling, crying and tearing out his peach fuzz on his head. FauxSnooze would be going ballistic. There would be more umbrage than you could shake ten sticks at.

This is not a "gun rights" issue. This is an In-Your-Face, Fuck-You-Gabby-and-Her-Supporters, All-Asshole-Democrats-Hate Guns, Ha-Ha-Isn't-This-Funny/Aren't-We-Touching-a-Nerve GOP bullshit.

And you are cheerleading it....why, I can't fathom. I must say, in my opinion, I think the worst about your motivations.

[petronius]

62. And some of us (maybe even you) would be calling the Limbaugh/Faux poutrage for what it is

You're partly right - it's not a gun-rights issue, it's not a labor issue, it's not an issue at all beyond a desire to score some political points by bashing 'baggers with manufactured offense... :shrug:

[MADem]

68. You're wrong. Totally wrong. You certainly missed the target, as it were.

If the Democratic Party did something of that nature, gleefully taking advantage of someone --even a GOP politician--getting wounded, I'd be AGREEING with the assholes at Faux and Limbaugh. I'd be saying things like "Even a stopped clock is right twice a day."

So sorry, no sale.

You don't make fun of people getting shot by crazy assholes. You don't use that kind of event as a political motivator. It's a sick thing to do, sociopathic, really. People who can't make that connection have a REAL PROBLEM.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

72. I fail to see...

...where they are making fun of Giffords. I fail to see where that event is being used as a political motivator.

What they are doing is raffling off an example of one of the most popular pistol brands in the world.

[MADem]

74. Yes, you deliberately "fail to see" because you are consciously obtuse.

What they are doing is raffling off a weapon of the same brand and type that shot the sitting congressional representative in the District.

If they wanted to raffle a gun, why not a hunting rifle?

There are no accidents--and this was no damn accident.

If you don't get that, you're not terribly observant, and that's the kindest way I can describe your inability to perceive the sentiments of thinking people.

[rl6214]

97. It has been pointed out many times here, it is NOT the same

brand and type...it is the same brand (glock) not the same type (9mm vs .40)

Get a clue.

[MADem]

101. They ARE the same brand--GLOCK. Not the same MODEL.

They are "similar." You're the one shy of a clue--or ten, and the last cheerleader standing. Not even the GOP leaders in Pima are touting this abject stupidity.

It's getting the bipartisan thumbs-down, from everyone but YOU and a few other obtuse diehards. Even the guy who thought up this hair-brained raffle is having second thoughts.


James Kelley, the GOP’s Legislative District 29 chairman, said he advised his colleagues not to raffle the gun. He acknowledged the party has held gun raffles before without problems, "but post-Jan. 8 it's bad messaging and it's insensitive."

Kelley continued: “It doesn’t mean the Republican party doesn’t have an incredible record of supporting the Second Amendment, but at this point it’s ill-advised and I won’t stand with them on this.”


Read more: http://azstarnet.com/article_d44be30a-d4c7-11e0-ac95-001cc4c03286.html#ixzz1Wq8Mazf4

"Let's make this perfectly clear: I advised against this raffle from day one," said Kelley, who also is on the Pima County GOP's executive committee.

"I said, 'This is insensitive and stupid and a no-brainer. Do not advertise this.' The chairman and our executive director did the wrong thing. They said, 'Well, we've done it before.' Yes, but not since January 8, and we shouldn't be doing it now."

Despite the criticism, which Shaw said included "a lot of nasty calls," the Pima County Republican Party doesn't intend to cancel the raffle. The office also received some supportive calls and requests for tickets, he said.

The Glock in the current raffle actually was raffled off last year, Shaw said, but the winner never claimed it..."We didn't go out to buy a Glock to make people mad - not at all," Shaw said. "There are some people who are sincerely offended or maybe even hurt, and I feel bad about that. It was not my intent, or anybody's intent, to hurt anyone at all."


Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/09/01/20110901arizona-gop-gun-raffle-politico.html#ixzz1WqAoD2s5

I think it shows a stunning lack of judgement and decency at a time like this, when the community is still grieving and healing over the events of January 8th,” said Jeff Rogers, chairman of the Pima County Democratic Party. “Raffles are fine - how about an iPad, or a bag of golf clubs… if you want to honor the 2nd amendment, why not raffle off a shotgun or a hunting rifle?”

Opposition to the Glock raffle appeared to have bipartisan support.

“There’s a woman who has a bullet in the brain and who everybody is wishing a full recovery,” Brian Miller, the immediate past chair of the Pima County GOP told Talking Points Memo. “I don’t think that raffling off a firearm right now is probably the right way to go.”


Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/62477.html#ixzz1WqCkDo3w

[rl6214]

138. Talk about clue

Who's cheerleading?

"It's getting the bipartisan thumbs-down, from everyone but YOU and a few other obtuse diehards."

Please try to show me where I am giving this a thumbs-up?

All I said is it's not the same type, brand, Glock, yes, model, 9mm vs .40 ca, no.

Quit your hand wringing and pearl clutching and try to comprehend what you are reading. I know it's hard for anti-gun zealots to figure it out but at least try.

[burf]

121. Please see #118 n/t

[MADem]

125. The Pima County guy has since expressed regret for the decision.

He gave the "I didn't know it would bother anyone" excuse. Willfully obtuse.

He's the INTERIM GOP chair--I have a feeling he won't be keeping the job.

The Tucson County GOP chair told the Pima guy BEFORE the raffle, before this story even broke, that it was a dumbass idea and advised him "strongly" not to do it. He said it was insensitive and would cause hard feelings. That's a Republican talking.

I've posted a number of links with this stuff in it; the "Nothing to see here" bunch doesn't want any cognitive dissonance on the topic though, so they don't seem to be reading it. There's widespread disdain for the raffle and it's bipartisan. It has nothing to do with 2nd Amendment rights; it has to do with a recent shooting that impacted a district and affected people from across the political spectrum, and the sense that the GOP chair was making light of that shooting by offering that particular brand of weapon as a raffle item.

A retired colonel, registered Republican, was shot at that rally. He's really PISSED:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/09/02/20110902tucson-shooting-badger-pima-gun03.html

I can't say I blame him.

[PavePusher]

135. Lots of guns get raffled off across the nation every year.

Which raffles are political attacks and which ones aren't?

[petronius]

78. There's no valid reason to conclude that anyone gleefully took advantage of or made fun

or anyone or anything. That's where your argument falls apart and why your poutrage becomes more laughable the more you insist on it.

If anything, I'd say the people using the raffle to bash 'baggers are the ones "taking advantage" of the shooting, but I don't say they have a problem or are sick or sociopathic, I simply say it's silly political gamesmanship...

[MADem]

83. Yes there is. And anyone who cannot see it has issues of their own.

You're playing the "laughable poutrage" card because you have nowhere else to run.

See, this shit isn't funny. The fact that you think it is tells us all we need to know about you.

Give it up. Thinking people find the conduct of the Pima GOP disgusting.

The fact that you don't says it all.

[petronius]

85. You misunderstand - I think YOU are funny. I don't find the raffle to be

funny or unfunny or anything at all. But the way you're winding yourself up here is pretty entertaining, and you're definitely managing to touch all the bases (although you almost jumped the shark with the 'Made in America' tangent; good recovery to drop that one quickly...)

:rofl:

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[petronius]

89. Missed the mark? Dude, your frothing posts flitting from complaint to complaint

and all your 'veiled' insults are the very definition of poutrage. If you don't like the rolly man, don't post things that scream so loudly for his appearance... :rofl:

[MADem]

92. You are on the wrong side of this argument. The only people who agree with you

are the far right wing GOP nutcases in Pima County. Don't believe me?

Here, read--there are a few hundred more news resources saying the EXACT same thing:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-rt-us-giffords-guntre7806f5-20110901,0,6184410.story

Republican gun raffle in Giffords' county draws criticism

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/09/tucson-republican-leader-slams-county-gop-for-giffords-gun-raffle.php

Tucson Republican Leader Slams County GOP For Giffords Gun Raffle

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2011-09-01/GOP-assailed-for-gun-raffle-in-Giffords-Ariz-district/50230780/1

GOP assailed for gun raffle in Giffords' Ariz. district

But keep "frothing" and "poutraging"--you show yourself for what you are.

[petronius]

93. Reports about poutrage don't make it any less poutrage

:shrug:

[MADem]

104. Well, that's bullshit--nice try, though.

There is a bipartisan agreement that this was a shitty idea.

Even the idiot who came up with the idea is expressing regret.

You're standing with the insensitive dolts. Heckuvajob!

[petronius]

107. Now you're just repeating yourself

:boring:

Bottom line, this was a fund-raising raffle offering a commonly-raffled item to a constituency that may be interested (although maybe not that interested, if the previous winner never picked it up). It's not a sneaky joke, it's not an incitement to violence, it's not a reference to Giffords.

Attempts to spin it into anything other than what it is, no matter how loud, are nothing more than poutrage and gamesmanship...

[MADem]

109. Why is GOP leadership in AZ saying this was a shitty idea?

Why are they united with the Democrats in condemning it? Why are they referencing the shooting of Giffords and the murder/wounding of AZ citizens when they condemn this asshattery? Why are they calling it clueless, insensitive, and an affront? Why did the Tucson GOP chair specifically advise AGAINST raffling that Glock? Was he a "poutrager" along with the rest of the complainers, before this story even broke?

You're the only cheerleader left, along with a few keyboard warriors, inciters and rabid types who can't see the writing on the wall if it were ten feet high and five feet away. There's bipartisan support against this crappy and moronic idea amongst 2nd Amendment champions in AZ.

One more time, since you seem to think this is all about being "anti-gun:"

Their objection has NOTHING to do with the 2nd Amendment.

Stow the emoticons--just makes you look childish. Or is that what you're going for, with all the rolling men and repeated use of the term "poutrage?"

[petronius]

110. Aww, are you gonna get all (p)outraged about smileys now?

:P

OK, serious answer: it's a game. It's politics. Just because something is poutrage doesn't mean it doesn't stir up emotions, and if enough people start squealing and using a specific topic as a cudgel, the targets will (often) try to deflect the attacks or change the subject. But that has nothing to do with the truth I've expressed to you all along (e.g., see my last post), that this was nothing more or less than a raffle.

As for it being anti-gun or 2A related, you've confused me with someone else: I told you many posts ago that it wasn't about gun-rights or labor or anything other than willful offense and political gamesmanship... :shrug:

[MADem]

115. The use of the term "poutrage" in the context of this argument

reflects poorly on you. It's not "poutrageous" to find the use of the murder and wounding of innocent civilians objectionable, and anyone who thinks otherwise has serious issues of a personal nature.

So is the repeated use of emoticons to snark and try to slough off failure to make a viable point.

This wasn't "just a raffle." GOP leadership in AZ understood that, and the Tucson chair and others strongly advised the interim GOP chair of the county to NOT HOLD THE RAFFLE. They understood the "insensitivity" issues, and they did so before this story even broke.

There is broad, bipartisan opposition to this raffle, within pro-gun AZ, for the sole reason that it is crass, crude and insensitive to the victims of the shooting and their families. The "gamesmanship" and "willful offense" has BACKFIRED.

There's nothing funny about dead people, least of all dead children. It hasn't had the effect of rallying the base; instead, it has left thoughtful, and even the "not the sharpest knife" people with a sour taste in their mouths, to think that a political party would so cravenly use the dead and grievously wounded to try and be clever and snarky. It's a very personal, home-grown slap to the community, delivered by the clueless "interim chair" of the County GOP. It's just not "cute."

I've posted links that provide evidentiary proof of what I am saying, that include quotes from the principals acknowledging that this was a shitty, lousy, stupid idea. You can ignore them if you'd like, but this thing is backfiring like a chili farting contest at full psi. It'll only grow with time.

It's the tone-deaf and snarky quality that offends, and it crosses party lines.

[petronius]

120. It was a common raffle of a common item, nothing more or less

Your continued nonsensical claims (that anyone used a murder, used the dead, thought murder was funny and so on) reflect badly on you.

I will correct one point in my last post, in case you misunderstood it: the phrase "willful offense" referred to the willful taking of offense, not the giving of it. Other than that, you've added nothing new here, and said nothing to undermine what I've repeatedly told you...

[MADem]

124. You are one of a tiny minority who feels that way.

Again, read the links. I rather doubt you have, because they're pretty compelling evidence that your thoughts on this matter are not consonant with the views of a large majority in Arizona.

There is bipartisan agreement that this was a dumbass idea, and the "taking of offense" was a logical result of the raffle. That's the perspective of the GOP Chair in Tucson.

But hey, whatever. Keep those blinders on.

[PavePusher]

133. See post #118.

Seems there was some information missing from the original story.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ileus]

64. Glock is thought of as the Toyota of the firearm world...accepted as basically American.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

67. I always considered it...

...the Tupperware of the firearm world... ;)

Not a huge Glock fan. I recognize them for what they are, but they don't do anything for me.

[ileus]

77. Too cheap to put up a G30 I suppose...

[We_Have_A_Problem]

80. hehehe

Doubt it though - price tag on the two isn't that different.

[PavePusher]

50. And you have dodged the question.

Would you care to address the actual question?

[MADem]

53. What's the "actual question" pal--I didn't see one in the sub-thread. NT

[We_Have_A_Problem]

57. Post #38.

Try to pay attention.

[MADem]

61. Why don't YOU try to pay attention--that question was not directed at ME.

Nice try. BAIT FAIL, though.

[PavePusher]

136. It was the point of the sub-thread, which you have attempted to derail.

Would you care to answer the question?

[gejohnston]

140. Partly because it was sitting around for a year

because the winner didn't want it last year, and Shaw was kind of hoping it would happen again? Kind of like selling the same item two or three times. I would prefer a Ruger or S&W. Of course Walther.

[MADem]

63. The ladder doesn't work. It's more like if some crazy bastard hit her with an axe, and the GOP

raffled off an axe, with a nudge and a wink.

Gabby Giffords is injured because a fucking nut shot her, not because she fell. She's not responsible for her injuries, a dickhead who wished her harm is responsible.

And the GOP thinks it's funny, and that they can use it as a selling point to raise money.

This has nothing to do with "gun rights," it has to do with being fucking assholes. And that's what the GOP 'leadership' in that district is.

[rl6214]

98. Ding, ding, ding

Finally you got it right.

"Gabby Giffords is injured because a fucking nut shot her, not because she fell. She's not responsible for her injuries, a dickhead who wished her harm is responsible."

IT'S GOT ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GUN.

[MADem]

106. You can't possibly be that much of a dullard!!!!!! I refuse to believe it!!!!!

No one ever said it was the FAULT of the GUN.

Jesus.

What has been said, by Democrats AND NOW REPUBLICANS, is that selling off that Glock was insensitive. Baiting. Making light of murder and attempted murder. That's what is being said.

I am not going to repost the links I have posted elsewhere, but go look at them and pay close attention to what the GOP leaders in the state are saying-- if you cannot get that this raffle has NOTHING to do with the 2nd Amendment and everything to do with being a fucking asshole, I cannot help you.

When the nitwit who came up with the idea is apologizing, you know that it went over like a lead balloon. When the GOP party bigwigs across pro-gun AZ are saying "This was the dumbest goddamned idea and totally inappropriate since the shooting," what they are saying is that it is PISSING PEOPLE OFF from left to right.

NOT because of the GUN--because of the model of the gun, the political affiliation of the victims, and the fact that so many AZ citizens were shot by it.

Your failure--and it is a huge one--is to assume, wrongly, that everyone objecting to this raffle is anti-2nd Amendment. That shows your prejudice and inability to read contextually.

This has nothing to do with guns in general. It has to do with a brand of gun (model is irrelevant) and a tragedy that deeply impacted a state, to the point that GOP leaders are disavowing this DUMBFUCK raffle idea.

Find the links, read and learn.

[PavePusher]

137. As has been said repeatedly, not the same model. n/t

[rl6214]

139. You sure are reading an awefull lot into WHAT I DIDN'T SAY

Here is every post I have made in this thread.



rl6214 (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-02-11 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #8

94. Same brand, not the same type
The loughner gun was a Glock 9mm, this is a Glock .40 ca. That's like saying a Chevy Camaro is the same type of car as a Chevy Corvette.
rl6214 (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-02-11 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #21

95. I've got this conversion, love it...
allows you to get in lots of practice at a low cost and allows the wife and kids to enjoy shooting the ARs without the recoil and noise.
rl6214 (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-02-11 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #37

96. I did the same...
I got the XD45 and I love it.
rl6214 (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-02-11 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #74

97. It has been pointed out many times here, it is NOT the same
brand and type...it is the same brand (glock) not the same type (9mm vs .40)

Get a clue.
rl6214 (1000+ posts) Sat Sep-03-11 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #101

138. Talk about clue
Who's cheerleading?

"It's getting the bipartisan thumbs-down, from everyone but YOU and a few other obtuse diehards."

Please try to show me where I am giving this a thumbs-up?


"All I said is it's not the same type, brand, Glock, yes, model, 9mm vs .40 ca, no.

Quit your hand wringing and pearl clutching and try to comprehend what you are reading. I know it's hard for anti-gun zealots to figure it out but at least try.
rl6214 (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-02-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #63

98. Ding, ding, ding
Finally you got it right.

"Gabby Giffords is injured because a fucking nut shot her, not because she fell. She's not responsible for her injuries, a dickhead who wished her harm is responsible."

IT'S GOT ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GUN.
rl6214 (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-02-11 03:43 PM
Response to Original message

71. unrec for driveby news reporting and normal shtick
Where ya been jpak, I thought you'd been tombstoned I hadnt seen you in so long




Please show me, anywhere on this thread where I said that the raffle was a good idea. Please show me where I said that everyone objecting to the raffle is anti2A.

You are like every other anti-gun zealot out there, you just make shit up.

[Glassunion]

30. For I believe the 2nd time, I actually agree with Jpak.

They are indeed douchebags an many levels.

Level 1. They are republicans.
Level 2. Personally, I think the timing, location and the choice of firearm to raffle is a bit insensitive. Perhaps they were just not thinking. Which is not beyond the realm of possibility; remember, they are republicans.
Level 3. They are still republicans.
Level 4. In their flyer for the raffle: http://www.pimagop.org/files/etracks%20August%2026%202011.pdf, the title states: "HELP PIMA GET OUT THE VOTE AND MAYBE HELP YOURSELF TO A NEW GLOCK .45. They then show a picture of a model 23 and state it is a .40. Probably not thinking again.
Level 5. Republicans... Nuff said.

[MADem]

44. As I said elsewhere, not even an AMERICAN WEAPON.

These are the people who complain about no jobs over here? How about "Buying American"--but of course, it's not about that. It's about chuckling over the shooting of a congresswoman and supporters in her district. This wasn't accidental. It was deliberate.

Sick fucks.

[gejohnston]

54. A better choice would be

the Arizona state gun.

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRevolvers/SingleActionArmy.aspx

[MADem]

91. Yes.

One tricked out with a nice grip and perhaps a GOP commemorative holster would be just the ticket, and would not have drawn the criticism.

Every paper in the nation is reporting this--it's not a non-story, as some would like to pretend:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-rt-us-giffords-guntre7806f5-20110901,0,6184410.story

Republican gun raffle in Giffords' county draws criticism


Even REPUBLICANS have problems with it:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/09/tucson-republican-leader-slams-county-gop-for-giffords-gun-raffle.php

Tucson Republican Leader Slams County GOP For Giffords Gun Raffle

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2011-09-01/GOP-assailed-for-gun-raffle-in-Giffords-Ariz-district/50230780/1

GOP assailed for gun raffle in Giffords' Ariz. district

[gejohnston]

123. The Dems should do the Colt

raffle with Dem commemorative holster.

[MADem]

126. I think they'd be better off with an iPad at this stage.

A Republican, a retired colonel, who was shot at the Giffords rally, is pissed off at the Pima County GOP and he isn't mincing words, either.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/09/02/20110902tucson-shooting-badger-pima-gun03.html

This thing has traction.

[gejohnston]

128. may have a point

Pima County is more urban than rural. My idea might work better in a place like Kingman or Wyoming Dems. A good deer rifle though.
As long as it traction is anti GOP blow back, it's all good. Thing to do is make it a GOP thing and not a gun thing.

[MADem]

131. The people who are complaining are pro-gun. They're 2nd Amendment champions.

This isn't a bunch of northeast liberals whining from afar--this is a local show--gun owners, Democratic and Republican politicians, voters from all across the spectrum, and the family members of the dead and wounded, saying "You fucking ASSHOLE--that was a low blow!!!!!"

And when the chair of the Tucson GOP says, flat-out "I told that idiot not to do that stupid raffle--it's INSENSITIVE, it's bad PR, it will get a bad reaction" and doesn't back up the Pima County clown at all, you know that he's gotten an earful from his own people. Here's his precise commentary, without my interpretation:

James Kelley, Republican chairman in Legislative District 29, which mostly is in Tucson, said Giffords is such a beloved figure in his community that he instinctively knew the Glock raffle would draw criticism. He urged his fellow Republicans to, at the very least, hold the raffle at a private party event.

“Let’s make this perfectly clear: I advised against this raffle from day one,” said Kelley, who also is on the Pima County GOP’s executive committee.

“I said, ‘This is insensitive and stupid and a no-brainer. Do not advertise this.’ The chairman and our executive director did the wrong thing. They said, ‘Well, we’ve done it before.’ Yes, but not since January 8, and we shouldn’t be doing it now.”

http://tucsoncitizen.com/arizona-news/2011/09/02/pima-gops-glock-raffle-spurs-outcry/

All politics is local. And the outrage (not "poutrage" as some instigators claim) is coming from pro-gun citizens of Gabby's district from left-right-center. It's the nudge-wink quality of the raffle, and the accompanying disingenuous "Who, ME? Why, I didn't mean THAT" bullshit that they aren't buying.

Making light of that shooting, even tangentially with a smirk, was a dumb thing to do--particularly when the youngest victim's tenth birthday would have been next week.

[krispos42]

31. The Glock 23 is a 9mm, not a .40-caliber. The story is in error.

It's either a Glock 23, or it's a .40-caliber Glock. It can't be both.

And since the hype in the story is that "it's the same gun used to attack Giffords and kill 6 people" (which is surprising, because I would think the gun would be in an evidence locker someplace), this is a relevant fact per the standards of the author and the OP.


The fact that the Glock handguns are probably THE most popular handgun brand sold in the US, and possibly worldwide, is of course, completely irrelevant and immaterial.


:sarcasm:

[Glassunion]

33. Wait... What?

17, 18, 19, 26, 43=9mm
22, 23, 24, 27, 35=.40

It is a 23 and it is a .40

[krispos42]

34. Oh, shit, you're right.

The 19 is the compact 9mm version of the 17, and the 23 is the compact version of the .40 S&W 22. They didn't start doing the really small 9mms until later on down the line.



I'll be off in the corner now... :dunce:


You may spank me at your discretion.

[Glassunion]

35. I have to admit that the answer to the question was really close to me.

I turned around and asked the dude sitting in the chair behind me what model his Glock was. He said a 23. I asked .40 cal? He said yep. I said thank you officer.

Bonus... I'm in a Starbuck's

[krispos42]

130. *snort*

Although you have to be careful... I had a trooper tell me his Glock was made in Australia!

[Common Sense Party]

39. Question: Why does Glock have to be so damned confusing with

their model numbers? It's just stupid.

[Glassunion]

90. If I'm not mistaken the model number coincide with their patent numbers.

I.E. The model 17 was the company's 17th patent that they received.

[GreenStormCloud]

48. If they raffled off any kind of gun the antis would still be complaining. N/T

[MADem]

99. Not necessarily.

A hunting rifle, or a commemorative firearm, maybe not. AZ isn't a gun-shy state, they discriminate a bit between brands. It's the fact that it is a GLOCK--the same brand used to shoot Giffords and kill/wound so many others-- that is grating.

Others have said that it might have been a better idea to raffle off an iPad or some other fancy electronic device, and that might have been more sensible.

But even some members of the GOP are saying this is a really sleazy move. It's not like they're all cheering it on, it's only the wingnut "interim chair" of the local county GOP who thought this was just hunky dory (though he now, following BIPARTISAN outcry, has expressed a bit of chagrin)...and a few others who lack insight or like to fan flames.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/09/time-for-good-republicans-to-oust-whacko-republicans/244492/

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/01/gun-raffle-in-giffords-district-prompts-democrats-outrage/

http://www.kvoa.com/news/gop-gun-raffle-raises-controversy/

http://azstarnet.com/article_d44be30a-d4c7-11e0-ac95-001cc4c03286.html

[ProgressiveProfessor]

103. Pull the other finger...

Every time there is a gun give away or raffle, someone here whines about it. :rofl:

[MADem]

108. Your failure is assuming that everyone objecting to this is anti-2nd Amendment.

And on that score, you could not be more wrong. GOP leadership and Democrats in AZ are all standing together and saying this raffle idea was IDIOTIC.

And none of them are "antis."

It is a known fact that there are Democrats, and some Republicans, as well, who are pro gun control.

Your failure, and it's a big one, is to assume that anyone objecting to this raffle is an "anti" when what they are is simply not stupid or obtuse.

You're on the losing side on this issue.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

113. Your failure is is trying to rationalize nonsense while ignoring the very post you replied to

which said: If they raffled off any kind of gun the antis would still be complaining.

And you own words betray you when you wrote "this raffle idea was IDIOTIC. "

My response was in support of the prior post and your dancing is just that.

I still can not recall any story about a gun as a prize or incentive that some posters here did not object to.

[MADem]

116. I'm simply referencing what the GOP chair in TUCSON was saying.

He was the one who said the raffle was idiotic, and told the Pima chair to NOT HOLD IT.

Why?

Because it was INSENSITIVE.

If even the GOP honcho in Tucson "gets it," (and got it before this story broke, and tried to stop it) why is it so hard for you to understand?

The murder of AZ citizens, including a child, and the wounding of others, including the community's congressional representative, is just not "funny." It's not something that should be made light of.

This isn't about the "antis" on DU, so get off that horse of misdirection. "Waaah, some people here just don't like guns" has nothing to do with this topic. This is about the OP, which speaks to the idiotic decision by the Pima County interim GOP chair to raffle off a GLOCK nine short months after an horrific shooting using the very same 'brand' of gun, a shooting that impacted families across the Giffords' district.

You can call that "rationalizing nonsense" if you'd like, but you'll find yourself in a distinct minority.

[GreenStormCloud]

119. I remember a truck dealership that was giving away AK-47 (civilian version)

with each pickup purchase. Lots of folks here were in an uproar. I remember a bank that was giving away a high quality scoped hunting rifle for each certificate of deposit of a certain size. Lots of howls here from the antis.

I stand by my statement that they could raffle off ANY gun, even a BB-gun and the usual crowd would complain.

[MADem]

127. I invite your attention to the many links on the topic I have posted throughout this thread.

The 2nd Amendment supporters in AZ, from both sides of the aisle, are the ones saying this was a boneheaded, tone deaf thing to do. A Republican retired colonel, who was AT the Giffords rally and got shot in the head, is majorly pissed off.

You don't do that subtle snark thing in a district where so many people were wounded and killed--including a little girl (who would have turned ten this week had she lived).

It's just asshattery. It's Limbaugh-style disingenuousness. And the pro-gun guys in that district in AZ, Dem and Republican, are NOT buying the "Ewwww, who knew it would be a problem? Oh, I never would have done it if I'd known," bullshit that the interim Pima County chair is putting out. The Tucson chair told him before this story came out not to do it, that it was a bad PR move, that it would piss people off--but the jerk didn't listen. Now he's reaping the whirlwind.

This isn't about a bunch of "DU liberals" having a go at the whole gun thing. This is about pro-gun politicians, in bipartisan agreement, and voters, and citizens, all from Gabby's district, all still scarred by the shooting in January, saying "You assholes crossed the line."

This isn't a "no big deal" thing. It's got legs. Fine with me.

[PavePusher]

143. Self-delete. n/t

[gejohnston]

129. true but

The AK for Veterans Day, given that is basically the rifle of the other guys in most of our lifetimes. For Veterans Day, I would give away an AR, M1 carbine, 1911 something like that.
That's me.
But true, the antis would bitch about an airsoft.

[Paladin]

122. And You'd Still Be Siding With The Fucking Republicans. (n/t)

[gejohnston]

141. Be siding with them

or some of them either way.

[Glassunion]

60. Why not a Ruger? Aren't they from AZ?

[NOMOREDRUGWAR]

69. This is also the place where Jose Guerena was executed

by Pima County SWAT officers three months ago.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

73. Yep and...

...he may well have been shot with a Glock 23, yet nobody is bringing HIM up.

Nah - its gotta be an attack entirely upon Giffords...yup..cant POSSIBLY be anything else...the fact that Glock is as popular as it is has NOTHING to do with it.

[NOMOREDRUGWAR]

75. Yep, Jose Guerena was killed by the idiots in Pima County.

Sheriff Dupnik is for gun control and blamed Republicans for Gifford's injury. How come he didn't criticize his officers when they executed an Iraq war vet?

The Gun War is as stupid as the Drug War. If you prohibit vices, like guns, drugs, gambling, and prostitution, you don't eliminate them, you only push them underground. All failed policies, pushed by Republicans and Democrats alike. Anyone who doesn't understand this needs to educate themselves.

[rl6214]

71. unrec for driveby news reporting and normal shtick

Where ya been jpak, I thought you'd been tombstoned I hadnt seen you in so long.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

114. I believe the outrage we are seeing is not factually based

The "issues" have been well debunked by prior posters.

[PavePusher]

134. Also post #118, if you haven't seen it yet.... n/t