At least 3 dead in Nevada mass shooting

[MyrnaLoy]

(Reuters) - A gunman opened fire at an IHOP restaurant in Carson City, Nevada on Tuesday, killing three people and wounding at least six others before turning the gun on himself, authorities said. "I can't believe this is happening here ... You read about this happening in big cities, but not in our little town." http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/06/us-shooting-nevada-idUSTRE78550M20110906?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

[SteveM]

1. This story was posted in Latest Breaking. nt

[MyrnaLoy]

2. and now it's here

Another one of those "rare" instances where an "assault rifle" is used in a crime.

Ralph Swagler, owner of the adjacent Locals BBQ restaurant, told the Nevada Appeal that he saw the gunman pull up in a minivan, get out and begin firing an automatic rifle at the IHOP. The gunman then reloaded and went inside, and Swagler said he heard more gunshots inside the restaurant. http://www.recordcourier.com/article/20110906/NEWS/110909926/1092

Not to mention another one of those pistol owners who didn't stop jack shit: "Swagler said he had a handgun and considered opening fire on the shooter, but he didn't want to engage a gunman who was armed with a fully automatic weapon." http://www.recordcourier.com/article/20110906/NEWS/110909926/1092

[SteveM]

3. "assault rifle?" Coulda sworn it was "a-pepper rifle"...

Sorry. An assault rifle is capable of full-auto or select fire; a semi-auto rifle is capable of only one shot for each pull of the trigger.

You imply a truth for once: Deaths by true "assault rifles" are indeed rare, but this ain't one of 'em.

[MyrnaLoy]

4. you may wanna read a little

before you look too stupid. It was a full auto rifle. I don't think I've ever seen you right, you may wanna give up now.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

5. Untill the exact model is mentioned in an article

I'm going to have to believe that once again, a reporter didn't know what he was talking about, or intentionally misrepresented what he was told.

[MyrnaLoy]

6. do you guys even know how to read?

a witness, a gun owner who had his pistol and didn't stop shit identified the weapon along with about 100 other witnesses. You keep waiting while other pass you by with the truth.

"We just heard basically a string of gunshots, probably 5 to 7 back to back to back to back and then there was probably 30 second delay then an automatic weapon fired, probably 20 to 30 shots," said Gary Gamba, general sales manager at Michael Hohl Motors, which is across the street from the IHOP. http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44410882/ns/today-today_news/t/gunman-dead-after-killing-wounding-nevada-restaurant/#.TmaWRY6QmFg

[We_Have_A_Problem]

7. I know how to read

I also know that absent any actual information, I'm going to go with what is very likely the case.

I am not saying it wasn't full auto - I am saying that reporters have a track record of being wrong on that claim.

[MyrnaLoy]

8. IT wasn't a reporter!

It was witnesses. About 100 of them, among them a gun owner with a handgun who, once again, didn't stop shit. He watched people being gunned down and kept his weapon holstered. My guess is he knew the sound of automatic weapon fire. Truth be told you HOPE it's not an assault weapon.

[Starboard Tack]

10. Looks like it was a semi-automatic rifle

"At least eight were shot and the gunman was carrying a semi-automatic weapon, The Record-Courier reports. "Several people were killed," according to the Carson City Sheriff's Department."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/ihop-shooting-carson-city-nevada_n_950599.html

I guess it doesn't make much difference if you can squeeze a trigger fast enough and have high capacity clips.

[MyrnaLoy]

12. right...

you should read more than one news article. Steve made that mistake also. This is what we call a rare incident where you hope the reporter is right. the 10 to 20 round witnesses and gun owners describe from about 10 other sources you won't quote right?

[Starboard Tack]

25. I have read several and still am. I said "it looks like"

IMO a semi-automatic rifle is just as bad as a full auto in a situation like this. Full auto would be more deadly in a crowd.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

28. To be fair...

any rifle is going to be pretty bad.

[friendly_iconoclast]

13. Or enough manual dexterity to change magazines, like the VT shooter.

I never knew the "beer keg" approach towards magazines would still be so popular

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=362693

I guess it's better to feel good than do something useful....

[MyrnaLoy]

15. wanna know who didn't have any dexterity?

this guy, "Swagler said he had a handgun and considered opening fire on the shooter, but he didn't want to engage a gunman who was armed with a fully automatic weapon." http://www.recordcourier.com/article/20110906/NEWS/1109...

[We_Have_A_Problem]

20. That isnt a lack of dexterity

It is simply a healthy survival instinct.

He believed he was out-gunned, and he was. A man with a pistol is always outgunned against a man with a rifle.

[MyrnaLoy]

24. yeah

like the last permit holder who tackled the wrong guy at the last mass shooting. CWP holders, my hero!

[We_Have_A_Problem]

27. Who was that?

If you're referring to Giffords, he didn't actually tackle anyone. Don't let facts get in your way though.

[rl6214]

55. Who was that? I must have missed it.

[RSillsbee]

78. CWP holders, my hero!

How's that self hatred working out for you? Or did you turn your permit in?

[AtheistCrusader]

102. Some have saved lives.

And some have spent their own lives doing so.

Google Mark Allen Wilson, Tyler Tx.

He saved at least Arroyo Jr.s life, possibly more, at a cost of his own.


Careful where you fling shit, ok?

[Euromutt]

179. And some at least tried

Brendan McKown, who was in a position to stop Dominick Maldonado during the Tacoma Mall shooting of November 2005; unfortunately, McKown had an attack of misplaced humanitarianism, holstered his gun and tried to reason with Maldonado, who shot McKown several times and almost rendered him paraplegic.

[friendly_iconoclast]

22. So what? Swagler is a restaurant owner, not a cop- and he was right to not engage.

May we enquire what armed self-defense credentials you might have to make such a criticism?

Rifle vs. handgun would be a losing proposition for the handgun wielder, unless the rifle shooter was very close.

[MyrnaLoy]

29. credentials?

I always come armed with the same fact. Not one mass shooting, since the luby's incident in Texas has ever been stopped by a CWP permit holder. That nonsense of, "It could have been prevented!" was nothing but a lie promoted by the NRA and bought and sold by it's members and the GOP.

Works so for.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

34. That is not quite true...

There have been numerous shootings stopped by CCW holders which could have become mass shootings had they been allowed to continue.

Appalachian law school ring a bell?

[friendly_iconoclast]

40. Factual accuracy is not neccessary for a faith-based argument

As is obvious with Myrna's posts...

[MyrnaLoy]

43. off duty

law enforcement ring a bell? LOL that was easy. Those guys were cops.

[RSillsbee]

80. New Life Church?

The permit holder even took on a guy w/ a scary black rifle

[MyrnaLoy]

94. hey!!!!!

+1000 you found the only case where a CWP holder stopped a shooter!!! After all these years, since Luby's you have one. Wait, umm wasn't her job security at the church? She was supposed to protect and serve. Awwww, bzzzzzztt, sorry. Can you find that one CITIZEN, not tasked with security, who stopped a mass shooting?

Know why it's so hard to find? THERE AIN'T ONE!

[X_Digger]

99. Actually, there is another, but we don't know his name..

http://www.ktvn.com/story/8378732/three-men-killed-in-winnemucca-shooting-on-sunday?redirected=true

Deputies say about 2:25 a.m., 30-year-old Ernesto Villa Gomez walked into the bar and starting shooting. 20-year-old Jose Torres and his 19-year-old brother Margarito Torres were killed. When Villa Gomez was reloading his semi-automatic gun, a man from Reno took out a gun and shot Villa Gomez. That man has a concealed weapons permit.

The unidentified man who shot Villa Gomez is not expected to be charged in this incident; law enforcement call it a justifiable homicide.

[PavePusher]

108. Volunteer security, by a Citizen. Hmmm... "Hey", indeed. n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

143. Your tricycle squeaks when you backpedal.

I'm impressed that you think you can move the goalposts with it though.

That person had no training beyond your standard range time. Not a police officer. (Still a 'citizen', by the way. what does that even mean?)

She had permission by the church to have a firearm on-premises, nothing more. Otherwise, just a normal person with a gun.

[RSillsbee]

210. Hate to burst your bubble

Jeanne Assam was nota licensed security guard. she was a volunteer w/ no security or law enforcement credentials period.


SHe was a citizen who was acting as part of the church ushers some of whom were armed and acted as private security for the church.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

153. More like

Off duty security guard. Not quite the same thing.

[friendly_iconoclast]

37. So, you have *no* experience, but complain about the behavior of others.

This is like having members of the Purity Circle review porn movies...

[rl6214]

59. That's because many have been at NO GUNS ALLOWED locations

and with only 3-5% of the population having CCL the chances of a permit holder being at the location of a shooting aren't that great.

[AtheistCrusader]

103. Tyler Tx Courthouse shooting, Mark Allen Wilson attacked the shooter

and held him busy while SWAT responded. Saved at least one life, was killed for his efforts.

Congress has honored him. There are more, but I guess if it doesn't fit your worldview, you don't seek knowledge.

[MyrnaLoy]

122. More?

but you don't have those links do you?

[AtheistCrusader]

138. Of course there are more.

But why should I bother doing any legwork for one as derisive as you? It's all quite accessible to you. In fact, I have linked some for you in past threads, and it's good to see you didn't retain anything at all.

Citizens have stood up and put their lives on the line to stop active shooters, right here in my own backyard, some have succeeded, some have paid dearly for it. All you can seem to think to do is shit on them for it.

I thought you were in Washington State? Tacoma Mall shooting ring a bell? There's a guy in a wheelchair for the rest of his life, because, armed with only a pistol, he went up against an asshole with a rifle, to protect others. He would have been fine if he'd just gone the other way. Did he save any lives doing it? Hard to say. Seconds count in those sorts of situations, he may well have given others time to get away. One would need to be able to replay the events in a perfect simulation without him, to know. We do know, that after McKown intervened, Maldonado didn't shoot any more people.

You also can't actually know how many shootings never became 'mass' shootings at all, again, because we cannot simulate or know the outcome without intervention. One thing is clear from actual mass shootings, active shooters usually self-terminate once they have encountered armed resistance. Whether he or she is wearing a badge or not, the best cure for these situations, once they have started, is a concerned human with a gun.

Edit: We've had this conversation before, and again, I'm not going to do your legwork if you're just going to move goal posts and such. You were informed of the shooting/halt upthread, as well as additional DGU's in these situations, by another poster. Good to see you didn't incorporate any of this information into your worldview.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=396184&mesg_id=396404

[MyrnaLoy]

188. have fun with your

masturbatory wet dreams and people stopping mass shootings LOL. Maybe someday you guys will find your hero.

[AtheistCrusader]

199. Maybe someday you will retain simple facts that were presented to you after you requested them.

[PavePusher]

109. Check around here:

www.keepandbeararms.com

You might not like the politics, but they link through to the original news stories.


Or here: www.thearmedcitizen.com

[MyrnaLoy]

121. no thanks

just another bunch of idiots

[PavePusher]

123. Refusal to accept evidence contrary to your position?

There are a number of terms for that.

"intellectually honest" isn't one of them.

[MyrnaLoy]

127. you find

a definitive source that says it was semi-auto yet? I know you're looking and praying. Keep dreaming concrete boy.

[PavePusher]

129. The topic being addressed in this sub-thread was proof of Citizens...

stopping "mass shootings".

Feel free to continue the dodging, I'm sure you need the exercise.

[MyrnaLoy]

130. so no

you have no proof, got it. Oh yeah, those many, many proud, brave CWP holders who have protected us from this angry world. Yeah, all those guys. Good luck with that.

[AtheistCrusader]

140. You've been linked at least four major incidents

in this and past threads where an individual, not a police officer, or off duty cop, with a gun, has halted horrific tragedies in progress. Some at great personal cost.

By all means, keep up the derisive hyperbole for first responders that risk their lives for strangers.

[MyrnaLoy]

180. hahahahaa

only one was NOT some sort of security. LOL Keep trying though. Ole Ralph in Nevada, first responder? Yea, he hid behind his door. The bonehead in Arizona wrestling with an old guy who he thought was the shooter. HAHAHAHAHA yea those were some great first responders!


You need a T-Shirt with their pictures man, better yet an NRA poster!

[AtheistCrusader]

200. Incorrect.

Try again.

[rrneck]

116. How many mass shooters

didn't try it for fear of getting shot?

[Euromutt]

124. Are you talking CCWer as bystander, or as prospective victim?

Because the situation is rather different for either. Nobody realistically expects an armed private citizen to put himself into harm's way in an attempt to intervene in a mass shooting if he himself is not under immediate threat. But that's a rather different proposition than that of a prospective victim who is already in harm's way and at least has the opportunity to defend himself, with the incidental benefit of stopping the mass shooting. Claiming that the latter being armed would positively affect the outcome is not the same as claiming that the former would.

And let's be honest, we don't realistically expect police officers, whose job it is to intervene, to rush into this kind of situation without assessing the situation, busting out the "patrol rifle," and possibly waiting for backup, even though they wear body armor. By your standards, "not one mass shooting <...> has ever been stopped" by a police officer either, in the sense that no LEO has ever stopped a known mass shooting before it became a mass shooting.

But that raises the question of how we would know a non-mass shooting would have become a mass shooting absent the intervention of an armed individual. And the answer is, of course, that we can't know. In that respect, it's facile to say "a mass shooting has never been stopped" by any particular thing, because if it was stopped, it wouldn't be a mass shooting, QED.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

31. exactly

He would have done nothing but get himself killed.

[rl6214]

54. Got nothin to do with dexterity

got everything to do with being smart. Awefully tough to engage a target that has a rifle opposed to your handgun.

[krispos42]

118. Well, now you're contradicting the meme about concealed-carriers

That they want to play hero, they're looking for a chance to legally shoot and kill somebody, that they'll shoot the wrong person, and/or that they'll add to the carnage of innocents by exchanging gunfire with the murders and/or other CCW holders.

I'm not saying necessarily that it's you're meme, but it's one that is common here in the Gungeon.

I took the liberty of doing some research. Here's a Google Map of the area in question. The IHOP is the blue-roofed building on the bottom, the Local BBQ & Grill the brown-edged-roof on the top. The McDonald's mentioned in the story is immediately south of the IHOP, off the map.






As you can see, there is a sizable distance between the doors of the IHOP and that of the Local BBQ. I count six rows of parking for cars, plus three lanes for access to those spots. It's pretty far.

I copied-and-pasted the scale at the bottom left of the map to determine how far, exactly, it was between the two closest sides of the buildings. I assume this is where the doors are, and this is why: each building had parking adjacent to the exterior wall ONLY on one side: the north face of IHOP and the south wall of Local BBQ. The doors would be located here to be adjacent to handicapped parking.

So I got about 190 feet from door-to-door. Maybe a bit more.





Okay, so that's about 65 yards, give or take. This is VERY far with a pistol, especially since we don't know what he was carrying.

Now, obviously, there exist handguns that can easily hit playing card at 65 yards in the hands of a decent shooter. But they tend to not be carried concealed. Concealed-carry guns tend to designed for ranges not exceeding 25 yards, and the subcompacts for maybe 15 yards.

I have a recent copy of "Handguns" magazine here. A new 9mm compact pistol, the Solo by a company called Kimber, shows accuracy results from a sandbagged rest of 1.7" at 15 yards. This means the gun puts, on average, 5 rounds in a circle 1.7" across. Extrapolating to 65 yards, the best-case scenario accuracy is 7.4". Considering the circumstances (shock, surprise, wind, stance, etc.) the guy would be lucky to get 15" accuracy.

Let's face it, sights designed to fast action at close range in dim light are too course for fine shooting at distance.

Odds are he would either miss entirely or only score a superficial wound. Whereas the guy with the rifle would turn around and shoot back. 65 yards is extremely close for a rifle and the bullet would be packing 5x as much energy as the pistol.



It would have taken him most of a minute to race across the parking lot, exposed, to get within easy shooting distance of the rifleman. At which point he's be breathing hard and have his pulse pounding, further making it harder to shoot accurately.

Swagler isn't a cop. He carries the gun strictly for close-range defense of himself. Expecting him to fit the stereotype of the Rambo wannabe and go charging in gun blazing is NOT realistic given the circumstances.

Now, if he had been dining at the IHOP, maybe he could have popped the guy as he entered through the doors. The IHOP would be darker that the outside, and he would have had a second or two to get a jump on the rifleman.

:shrug:

Maybe. Regardless of the outcome, he wouldn't have been having Rambo fantasies and a raging hard-on in his briefs. He's be scared shitless and desperate.

[MyrnaLoy]

120. that's great

he's the chicken shit who's now saying he wished he had returned fire. Show your maps to him.

[PavePusher]

125. Very free to cast aspersions on those who aren't here, aren't you?

Who's the "chicken shit" again?

Maybe, knowing the results, he wishes that he had taken the risk, as it could hardly have gone worse than the actual results.

It's called "survivors guilt", and it is a form of PTSD, not something to be mocked by internet cowards and liars.

[MyrnaLoy]

126. Yup

[krispos42]

141. he was there

He probably has it burned into his brain. And let's note that you're calling the guy a "chicken shit" because he didn't live up to your own mental image of how an armed CCW holder is suppose to act. What are you asking yourself? "Why didn't the guy go all Bruce Willis on his ass?"

[AtheistCrusader]

150. Projection.

Natural demented worldview for someone who assumes CPL holders do so to feel all bad-ass and macho.

Kinda doesn't set you up with proper expectations.

[one-eyed fat man]

178. Who you calling a chicken shit?

Oh mighty Washington state concealed carry holder? The one who claims Washington state CCW lists are public info? The one who claims waiting periods are good, but personally avoids them. The one who claims to be the automatic weapons pro but no military service?

How many firefights have you been in?

[MyrnaLoy]

181. hahahahahaaaa

firefights, LOLOLOLLO

[one-eyed fat man]

185. What qualifies you?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/firefight

fire·fight
noun
Definition of FIREFIGHT
1: a usually brief intense exchange of fire between opposing military units

b: a hostile confrontation that involves gunfire

2: skirmish

Examples of FIREFIGHT

a firefight between police and bank robbers

First Known Use of FIREFIGHT 1899

"Firefight, a large exchange of bullets between two sides (also known as a battle)"

How many gun battles have you been in that make you an expert on how people should react under fire? What experience do you have that makes you think you would react better?

[Name removed]

186. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RSillsbee]

211. Why are we wasting time

on a person who's only interest is deriding gun owners?

If a pro gunner were doing this instead of a restricionista they would have been tombstoned long ago

[MyrnaLoy]

132. you'll need to ask Ralph

The gunfire prompted Ralph Swagler, the owner of a nearby barbecue restaurant, to grab his weapon. But when Sencion started toward him, Swagler backed away.

"I wish I had shot at him when he was going in the IHOP," said Swagler, who owns Locals BBQ & Grill. "But when he came at me, when somebody is pointing an automatic weapon at you — you can't believe the firepower, the kind of rounds coming out of that weapon." http://www.chron.com/news/article/3-Guard-members-killed-in-Nevada-IHOP-rampage-2158515.php

65 yards away huh?

[krispos42]

144. The article doesn't state where Swagler was at the time of the shooting.

I presume he was managing his restaurant at the time; i.e., inside.

I also presume that he, after a few nervous seconds of :wtf:, went outside his restaurant, perhaps gun in hand, just in time to see Sencion come out with his rifle. Sencion sprayed bullets at the barbeque place (i.e., at Swagler) and at an H&R Block before finally killing himself.

Is this unreasonable?

Note that the article doesn't say.

[AtheistCrusader]

145. Pistol versus rifle.

A slightly less shitty proposition than nothing versus rifle.

Still a shitty proposition.



So, he didn't go 'rambo' enough for you. Tough shit.

[MyrnaLoy]

187. So in Arizona

Ole Zamudio was pistol mano pistol, what's your excuse there? Hahahahahaha I love you guys!

[akvo]

192. Zamudio used excellent judgement

"They already had a hold of him, and there was a lot of people around him, and I wasn't going to cause any more collatoral damage or scare anybody any further than they needed to be scared," he said. "I felt like I could hold him down and wait for police, and it wasn't my responsibility to end his life."

Joe Zamudio in the Geraldo Rivera interview


"I was at the store buying cigarettes," Zamudio said. "I was at the counter when I heard the gun shots. I put my hand on my gun and ran out."
Zamudio said another man - identified as 74-year-old Bill Badger - had already knocked Loughner to the ground. Zamudio said Loughner had already emptied his clip, so he "jumped on top of him."

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-01-11/news/27086997_1_hero-giffords-arizona-killer

[MyrnaLoy]

193. hero worship

unfortunately your hero is false. You should really read some of the non-revisionist history of Ole Joe's actions. you know, the one where her jumped on the old guy. This may help you a bit, all old Joe did was play pile on. But if you really want to do the revisonist thing then I'm sure there is a Joe Zamudio t-shirt for you also.

[akvo]

194. Credit goes where credit is due

Even if all he did was pile on, he still showed excellent judgement regarding his firearm. He evaluated a very stressfull situation and acted properly.

And the first thing he did was disarm the man he saw holding a pistol, the man happened to be a bystander holding Loughners handgun, but it was a smart move by Zamudio.

And I doubt with so many witnesses who spoke out that there can be any "revisionist" history.

[AtheistCrusader]

198. Whether he responded correctly to the person holding the gun

or not, it doesn't change the fact that you pursue a false equivalence here. The Arizona shooter was down before the CCW holder could see him, since he was inside the safeway when the shooting started/stopped.

Not very honest, you know.

[AtheistCrusader]

197. He was inside the safeway, and even though he started moving,

by the time he got in visible distance of the shooter, it was already over.

One would hope you already knew that.

[oneshooter]

190. What would YOU have done in his place?

You laugh at what he did. What would you have done?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[oneshooter]

209. It has been 24 hours and still no answer. Can you answer it?

You keep laughing at others reactions to a active shooter. Well since you have so much training and knowledge of the subject tell us what YOU would do.

Unless you are scared to show your real ignorance of the matter.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[MyrnaLoy]

223. I'm not

a person who is scared of every dark corner and things that go boo who carries a gun everywhere so I would have done what the BRAVE PEOPLE WHO WEREN'T CARRYING A GUN DID, THEY DISARMED HIM!.. What would you have done as a gun toter?

[oneshooter]

224. Not an answer to the question. Please answer the question asked. n/t

[oneshooter]

225. Then you would have died. At that range he could have cut you in half. n/t

[MyrnaLoy]

226. especially

while he was trying to reload like sort of how THE UNARMED PEOPLE IN ARIZONA DID IT! Too easy Oneshooter, try again.

[oneshooter]

228. You need to learn reading comprehension. Follow the string back and learn what

was asked.

You will lose against a AK at that range.

Tell us what you would do against a AK wielding madman from a range of 65 yards of open area.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[MyrnaLoy]

229. are you asking the

same dumbass question in two different locations? I just answered it in the other. Comprehension indeed!

[AtheistCrusader]

230. How'd that work out for the people at Virginia Tech?

Oh right, they got slaughtered, and the shooter reloaded at least 11 times.

[AtheistCrusader]

142. I notice a tag-team damned if you do, damned if you don't method here.

Note Hoyt's blatherings about open carry 'toters', and Starboard Tack's blatherings about concealed carry 'sneaky' people.

One demands that you conceal or not carry. The other that you open carry only.

Welp.

Here we go with 'omg they're gonna shoot everyone' about CCW people, and then 'What the hell, he didn't shoot anyone' when reality doesn't map.

[krispos42]

148. And we've been saying for years....

...that concealed carry doesn't turn people into John McClane. I've been reading "Handguns" for years, and in every article they run about the various self-defense techniques they are discussing, the term "yippie ki yay, motherfucker" is conspicuously absent. Lots of warning about personal danger and legal issues, though.

[RSillsbee]

212. I notice that if a pro gunner was as disruptive as some of these antis

they'd of been eating a granite pizza loooong ago

[Hoopla Phil]

172. Thank you very much for doing this research and analysis. The guys

actions were very reasonable and responsible. It IS a shame that circumstance did not put him in a better position to deal with the gunman.

[friendly_iconoclast]

184. I'll second that, in the face of a couple of ignorant blowhards here who chose to insult him n/t

[We_Have_A_Problem]

18. Truth be told

I don't care what kind of weapon he used. He chose to commit murder and the tool is not important in the long run.

[MyrnaLoy]

21. As long

as we make it easier to buy them right?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

26. Irrelevant.

As I said - i couldn't care less what the criminal used. The tool he chose to commit murder is not near as important as the fact that he killed and injured innocents.

I am grateful that the criminal was kind enough to end his own life and saddened for his victims and their families.

[MyrnaLoy]

33. but you want them

easier to get correct?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

36. I don't see how they could get much easier to purchase really

Have money, go to store, trade money for gun, go home. Thats about all i expect of any product.

Personally I couldn't care less about full-auto weapons, simply because I have no use for them. I do believe they should be just as easy to purchase though as anything else.

[MyrnaLoy]

50. one more time

you want it to be easy to by these types of weapons correct? Either full auto or semi-auto versions right? You do not support background checks at gun shows for private sales right? I just want to know where you stand.

[RSillsbee]

81. To answer your question very specifically, yes.

you want it to be easy to by these types of weapons correct?

background check at point of retail sale

Either full auto or semi-auto versions right?

Right

You do not support background checks at gun shows for private sales right?

Right

I just want to know where you stand.

And now you do.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

155. As I already said

It is easy to purchase them. As far as background checks for private sales, that is currently something which cannot legally be done. Private individuals have no access to the NICS system.

Would I like full-auto weapons to be as accessible as semi-auto? Sure. There is no practical reason why they should not be.

As far as background checks in general, I am opposed to them ideologically as they are an infringement, but from a practical perspective, I recognize they are a reality.

Perhaps if you actually asked what I believed rather than putting words in my mouth, you might actually learn something.

[PavePusher]

173. ...horses to water... n/t

[MyrnaLoy]

68. yup

"Those people never stood a chance," http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/sheriff-gunman-used-ak-1160181.html

[rl6214]

73. Does make a difference if it was a real AK47 or

an AK47 clone that the media like to call an AK47 or assault rifle.

[spin]

61. Do you believe that a person with a legally concealed weapon is a cop ...

or a vigilante? Does a person with a concealed handgun suddenly morph into a movie super hero?

A handgun is primarily a self defense weapon and is best used at very close range.

How far away was the individual with the concealed handgun? If the range was 20 or 25 yards, shooting at the killer may have resulted in injury to a bystander. If the individual was 15 yards away or closer the chances of successfully hitting him increases.

With my snub nosed revolver, a S&W Model 642, I can hit a stationary silhouette paper target of a man at 45 feet with consistency. Realistically, in a situation such as described, if I shot at that range using the snub nosed revolver against a moving target, I could easily miss. I might attempt the shot if I was sure that a miss would not endanger anyone beyond the target or break a window and injure someone on the other side.

Realistically, the logical tactic to use in such a situation would be to seek cover and call the police on a cell phone and observe. If the shooter approached me, and was close enough that I was confident in my ability to hit him, I would try. If while I was behind cover and if I thought I had a clear shot without endangering others I might try.

[MyrnaLoy]

56. How about a sheriff?

Sheriff: Gunman used AK-47 in IHOP shooting

A man with an AK-47 assault rifle shot an entire group of five uniformed National Guard members eating breakfast at a Nevada IHOP on Tuesday, killing two of them and another person in a hail of gunfire. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jcYmGJTl6ON7FoJqZ5vUsVhB_Zhw?docId=0135c90c1d1d459d9d5034cdd9563bbc

Furlong says they're analyzing the weapon to determine whether it is automatic or semi-automatic. So we'll know soon enough. I have no problem being wrong. I accept the fact that both can do a massive amount of damage. We'll see.

[RSillsbee]

77. Deaths by true assault rifles are NOT rare

Does the word Afghanistan ring a bell?


That said, I get your point. I will bet my ass this whack job did not have a select fire weapon

[AtheistCrusader]

100. Actually, based on witness descriptions

this one may have been the real deal, unlikely as it seems.

[SteveM]

9. Oh, Myrna....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/ihop-shooting-carson-city-nevada_n_950599.html

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SteveM]

14. You seem to have touched something made of tar. nt

[MyrnaLoy]

16. I'll say it again

because your skills seem so poor,

"Swagler said he had a handgun and considered opening fire on the shooter, but he didn't want to engage a gunman who was armed with a fully automatic weapon." http://www.recordcourier.com/article/20110906/NEWS/1109...

[SteveM]

17. Myrna...

"Invalid Article."

Per your link.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

23. That's merely a comment from a bystander

It is well known that people perceive things very differently under stress than they actually are. It was a sound choice on his part not to engage someone armed with a rifle when he was only armed with a pistol - and across the street. He would have endangered himself simply trying to close to an effective range.

I'm not really concerned with the type of gun used, or even that a gun was used. My concern lies with those who were injured or killed by a criminal.

[MyrnaLoy]

63. Sure they are

You do know the shooter had no criminal record right? He was just a guy who was able to get a weapon then decide to kill a bunch of people. Contrary to popular Gun Forum belief he was not a "Gang Banger". I know that was the gun forum hope but in this case sadly it's not the case.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

206. Um...did you respond to the wrong post?

I never said anything about him having a criminal record or not. I never said anything about him being a "Gang Banger".

If you responded to the wrong post, so be it. If not, then I encourage you to respond to what I actually say, not what you've imagined.

[SteveM]

32. And...

http://www.mynews4.com/news/local/story/BREAKING-Carson-City-Shooting/aPyN_Pod3EGjHMqhz0qv1Q.cspx

[MyrnaLoy]

39. Well you hope this time

a journalist is right don't you? Let's say me and about 100 witnesses are wrong. Let's say it's a semi-auto AK variant. You OK with that? Are you also OK with the damage a semi-auto AK variant can do in a crowded place in America? You OK with that also? I mean you hope and pray the reporter is right this time, are these people any less dead? Does the quick pull of the finger mean fewer dead, less damage? You know what I'm saying.

Either way, if I'm right or wrong, this was a weapon that did a massive amount of damage in a short time. If the weapon does prove to be a full auto will you publicly admit you're wrong here? I will because I know it really doesn't matter. If I'm right then we have a guy with a fully automatic weapon. If I'm wrong them we have to admit that SEMI-AUTO weapons inflict a massive amount of damage in a very short time. Which do you want it to be Steve?

[friendly_iconoclast]

42. Sadly for you, they *still* do less damage than hands and feet do...

..though I must admit your arguments are quite persuasive amongst those that already agree with them.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MyrnaLoy]

82. Tell you

what, post the total number of deaths by hands and feet and then post the number of deaths by firearm INCLUDING SUICIDES for any year. Let's see your point at face value.

[friendly_iconoclast]

104. Why are suicides important? Japan has far more than we do, and almost none via firearms.

Looks like you're one of the "They're deader when a gun is used" crowd...

[AtheistCrusader]

151. Nice sleight of hand trick there.

Substituting 'firearms' for 'semi-auto rifles'.

It's wierd that such a small percentage of murders involving a firearm involve such a high-powered death machine as a rifle. I wonder why that is...

[Euromutt]

110. It's not a matter of *wanting* a damn thing

It's a matter of having read and heard at least dozens of news media reports in which a firearm was initially described as "automatic" only to have it subsequently be revealed that it was in fact semi-automatic. Generally without the news outlet in question noting the correction to the earlier error, it might be noted.

And as for the weapon doing "a massive amount of damage in a short time," there have been mass knifings that have produced higher body counts than this. Essentially, if you've got an armed killer running amok, and all his intended victims are unarmed, it really doesn't make a whole lot of difference what particular type of weapon the killer's using.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

156. I'm perfectly OK with it being a semi-auto AK variant

Why wouldn't I be? The tool the criminal used is of far less importance than the fact that he committed the crime.

For the record, AK type rifles really aren't all that powerful when compared against, shall we say, a typical semi-auto hunting rifle.

And no - we don't have a clue what you're saying, or trying to say for that matter. It seems you're simply spouting random anti-gun responses with little care for consistency or accuracy.

[friendly_iconoclast]

35. On what basis do you criticize Swagler? How much combat shooting experience do *you* have?

How many combat shooting classes or courses have *you* taken? Swagler is not a cop, and isn't expected to act like one,
except by people like you (when convenient) of course.

I daresay if Swagler had engaged Crazy Rifle Dude, you'd complain about that....

[MyrnaLoy]

44. at least

he didn't tackle the wrong guy like the last idiot did.

[friendly_iconoclast]

52. A non-answer. Again, how much experience do *you* have in self-defense?

Seeing as you are studiously avoiding answering, I'm going to go ahead and say "all wind and no windmill"...

[MyrnaLoy]

58. Poor old Ralph

Ralph Swagler said he grabbed his own weapon, but said it was too late to stop the shooter.

"I wish I had shot at him but he was going in the IHOP," said Swagler, who owns Locals BBQ & Grill. "But when he came at me, when somebody is pointing an automatic weapon at you — you can't believe the firepower, the kind of rounds coming out of that weapon." http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jcYmGJTl6ON7FoJqZ5vUsVhB_Zhw?docId=0135c90c1d1d459d9d5034cdd9563bbc

[X_Digger]

62. Nobody was tackled, dear.. get your facts straight. n/t

[rl6214]

66. Who was that that tackled the wrong guy?

[rl6214]

64. Makes sense to me, I wouldn't do it either

I don't have a death wish.

[Remmah2]

152. CCW's are for "personal" protection.

Sounds like Swagler protected himself well and did the right thing and chose not to engage the shooter, unlike the unarmed sheep on the wrong end of a crazy guys full automatic rifle. (The same thing has happened with knives, swords, machetes.)

Consider, the police have no legal obligation to charge into a situation like that either.

[tularetom]

30. An old standard but somehow always appropriate

[friendly_iconoclast]

38. No Shit! n/t

[MyrnaLoy]

41. You really want

a journalist to be right THIS ONE TIME don't you? Let's say me and about 100 witnesses are wrong. Let's say it's a semi-auto AK variant. You OK with that? Are you also OK with the damage a semi-auto AK variant can do in a crowded place in America? You OK with that also? I mean you hope and pray the reporter is right this time, are these people any less dead? Does the quick pull of the finger mean fewer dead, less damage? You know what I'm saying.

Either way, if I'm right or wrong, this was a weapon that did a massive amount of damage in a short time. If the weapon does prove to be a full auto will you publicly admit you're wrong here? I will because I know it really doesn't matter. If I'm right then we have a guy with a fully automatic weapon. If I'm wrong them we have to admit that SEMI-AUTO weapons inflict a massive amount of damage in a very short time. Which do you want it to be?

[friendly_iconoclast]

47. Psst- you're repeating yourself- see post #39. Anyway, it doesn't matter

Crime, murder (and incidents like these) are decreasing, and the only people upset about that inconvenient truth
are the True Believers in gun control that are seeing their influence decrease by the month.

So this incident, while tragic, seems to be useful only to those who like to stomp around in the blood of the victims
and ignorately lambaste a civilian gun owner for not being Supercop or James Bond.

[SteveM]

48. That's why we won't wait with bated breath for your apology...

"Either way, if I'm right or wrong, this was a weapon that did a massive amount of damage in a short time. If the weapon does prove to be a full auto will you publicly admit you're wrong here? I will because I know it really doesn't matter."

Yup.

"...because I know it really doesn't matter."

[MyrnaLoy]

51. So you won't

admit it if you're wrong, got it.

[SteveM]

60. Your words, dear, your words. nt

[rl6214]

70. Will you admit it if YOU are wrong?

[SteveM]

75. Sure. nt

[rl6214]

105. Sorry Steve

my question was to the poster above you.

[SteveM]

168. "Well, in all the confusion, I forgot to count...." LOL. nt

[MyrnaLoy]

182. you find out yet?

we're waiting

[We_Have_A_Problem]

207. You figure out how...

...to answer a direct question? We're waiting.

Why should anyone answer any of your questions when you absolutely refuse to answer any put to you?

[MyrnaLoy]

57. Sheriif anymore knowledgable?

Sheriff: Gunman used AK-47 in IHOP shooting

CARSON CITY, Nev. (AP) — A man with an AK-47 assault rifle shot an entire group of five uniformed National Guard members eating breakfast at a Nevada IHOP on Tuesday, killing two of them and another person in a hail of gunfire. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jcYmGJTl6ON7FoJqZ5vUsVhB_Zhw?docId=0135c90c1d1d459d9d5034cdd9563bbc

At least someone is getting an answer, "Furlong says they're analyzing the weapon to determine whether it is automatic or semi-automatic."

[X_Digger]

65. No, cops aren't authoritative on such issues..

See if you can spot the problem with this picture..

[MyrnaLoy]

67. I'll leave you with this

"Those people never stood a chance," http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/sheriff-gunman-used-ak-1160181.html

but hey, you're the one who want to make them easier to get.

[X_Digger]

72. And you're the one who wants what, all semi-auto rifles banned?

Spit it out, you've been chewing that cud all throughout this thread.

Step up, what's your solution, hrmm?

[rl6214]

74. Poor picture quality but magazine is in the rifle backwards

[We_Have_A_Problem]

158. Oooh! I know i know!

Can i give the answer, teacher?

[AtheistCrusader]

160. Oh good grief, tell me that's a photoshop

because how... without a hammer...

[X_Digger]

161. It was in the newspaper, so doubtful. n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

163. That's incredible.

Standing up, exposed out of cover like a total fool.
Probably 50 feet to the porch, max, looking through a fairly large scope.

And to top it off, the weapon isn't going to fire. Awesome.


(Who the hell teaches that raised elbow stance, when not lying prone anyway? They should stop that)

[We_Have_A_Problem]

157. Analyzing...

The analysis should already be complete. It takes a fraction of a second to look at a rifle and determine if it has a safety or a selector switch.

[rl6214]

69. I think you've got something wrong with your computer

this is the exact same post as #39

[AtheistCrusader]

Investigators are still examining the weapon, per MSNBC.

We shall see. But no, the only thing on the line here is your credibility.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

162. How in the hell...

...can they still be examining it?

Good Lord, in 10 seconds, they should be able to identify the make, manufacturer, serial numbers, select-fire or semi-auto, and whether or not it is factory original.

[AtheistCrusader]

164. I think you over-estimate the police.

Given that a pre-87 might have a selector that goes to rock and roll without actually firing in that mode, the only way to tell (other than to bring in a competent armorer) would be to take it to a range and see what it does.


(a dangerous thing to try, if the weapon was altered)

[We_Have_A_Problem]

165. Granted...

..but statistically, what is the chance that some 22 year old facing bankruptcy scraped up the cash for one of those?

[AtheistCrusader]

167. Could have inherited it.

Or stole it. Hard to say. May not even be a possibility. Could be semi-only.

wish they would hurry up and announce the findings.

[Katya Mullethov]

46. "reliable sources "

Are tweeting " pie eyed panic" on The Fifth Floor @ BatFe , again ,today .
http://grooveshark.com/#/s/The+Torture+Never+Stops/2zgCPN?src=5
The torture never stops !

[rl6214]

49. Hadn't had a chance to see the news today

thanks for posting this news story for me.

[MyrnaLoy]

53. You're welcome!

[rl6214]

71. Just saw it on the news

they didn't have a whole lot more to add to the story and still have no information as to whether it was a full auto or semi auto. Waiting for BATF analysis to confirm.

[SteveM]

76. The media is in "All AK-47 All the Time" "assault rifle" mode, now...

and usually never correct themselves. If the weapon was a Remington Model 742, it wouldn't have that Journalism 101 ring. So, the buck will pass upstairs to ATF for I.D. work.

[oneshooter]

79. How much military training do you have?

Have you ever heard a full auto fire, outside of TV. Could you tell the difference in the sound of a rapidly fired semi auto and a full auto?

If you have no experience in the different weapons, how could you tell if it was a full auto, or a rapidly fired semi auto.

And how would you expect a untrained civilian, such as yourself, to tell the difference?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

I really don't expect an answer. As if replied to honestly she would make herself look like a idiot.

[MyrnaLoy]

83. Yes

I've shot both the m-16, ak-47, and a Thompson on full auto.

[oneshooter]

85. A partial answer. Could you tell the diffrence between full auto and rapid fire semi auto? n/t

[MyrnaLoy]

86. yes

I've been around guns my entire life.

[oneshooter]

89. Do you expect someone with no military training to do the same? n/t

[MyrnaLoy]

90. I have no

military training and I can tell the difference. Do you want me to speak for the entire population of the United States?

[oneshooter]

111. my point is that those who are knoledgeable of full auto generally will hear rapid fire

of a semi auto sounds, to them, like full auto. That I believe is what causes a lot of these full auto reports.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[AtheistCrusader]

154. Well, given civilians can't have full-auto in this state

one wonders how often you are exposed to the difference.

[MyrnaLoy]

183. ask those people

at that bank robbery in LA a number of years ago. They were outlawed in that state also. While you're at it ask the witnesses to that if they could tell the difference between full and semi auto fire.

[AtheistCrusader]

196. So, you hang out with bank robbers and people who flout state law?

Interesting.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MyrnaLoy]

88. He had other guns in the van

CARSON CITY, Nev. — Authorities say the man who opened fire on a table of uniformed National Guard members at a Nevada restaurant had two guns in addition to the AK-47 he used in the rampage, but he left them in his vehicle. http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/nev-sheriff-ihop-shooter-1160181.html

[Hoyt]

92. Multiple guns are often a good clue that things are amiss.

[ileus]

112. Preach it my brother...only crazy people own two or more guns.

you can preach it but they won't listen...the paranoid voices in their heads you know.

[Hoyt]

115. If you are out in public with several guns, you have a problem. I'd suggest asking for help.

[ileus]

136. I'll be out in public later on today with 4...

my muzzleloader, AR, 308, and 45.


It should be another great day at the range. Season is getting close, two more weeks until Va youth day deer hunt.

[oneshooter]

189. I will be out tomrrow with four also.

73 Sharps lLong Range in 45/70 Govt.

Remington Roller in 50/90 Sharps

71 open top conversion in 44 Colt

Daily carry SIG 220 in 45acp

Bet I throw more smoke.

Hoyt, the top 2 are "sniper rifles"
the next is a "combat pistol" and the last is a "sniper pistol"
For your education

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[krispos42]

119. There is some truth to that.

Unless you're traveling to or from a shooting range, a shooting event (like a competition), or a hunting trip, a CCW holder would typically only carry a single pistol.


Okay, MAYBE they'll have a car gun in the glovebox or something. But again, a handgun, not a long gun.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MyrnaLoy]

93. The good news is

none of the guns were harmed in the shooting.

[Hoyt]

96. LMAO.

[MyrnaLoy]

117. And it seems

the safety the NRA/GOP want us to have, i.e. firearm safety, is working with just a simple background check. They don't think we need anything else,

"The gunman, in what investigators said appeared to be a random burst of violence by a grocery worker with a history of mental problems" http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/07/shooting-nevada-idUSN1E78513Q20110907


No criminal record but had a history of mental problems. Good work NRA!!! As long as he was able to buy all the guns he wanted we can all be a little safer. This case just reinforces that we need more gun show loophole sales.

Keep up the good work Hoyt!! I'm glad I'm not here alone!

[AtheistCrusader]

146. Good thing someone finds it funny.

Now, share with us his medical history, so we can see what sort of 'mental problems' he had.

Since these states all have statutes on the books for involuntary removal of the right to buy firearms under certain medical conditions (mental health included).


In WA, involuntary committal for 48h or more than a week in a mental health facility is the bar, IIRC.
Do you know that this individual tripped whatever local state law applies? Can you share with us the details of his mental health problems? Did he have insurance? Did he ever get evaluated? Was he treated? Was he even diagnosed?

By all means, enlighten us.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

159. Its not the NRA's fault

If his "history of mental problems" actually exists on a level which should have had him flagged in the NICS system, the failure is wholly the responsibility of local law enforcement for not reporting it.

Thanks for playing, once again though, you fail.

[ileus]

95. You're thinking of the ATF

[Hoyt]

97. No, I'm thinking of the common practice among the "gun culture." How many do you have?

[ileus]

98. I haven't bought an AK yet that's still on my wish list. I did look at one today 479.00 WASR

[Hoyt]

114. Better jump on it. Seems to be a popular weapon here.

[LAGC]

128. Damn they're getting expensive!

I remember not too long ago when Romanian SARs could be bought for under $300.

[oneshooter]

101. Prove it, and pulling it out of your ass is not "proof" n/t

[Hoyt]

113. You ever sold one of your guns with a background check? Bet not.

[rl6214]

131. Any and every gun I have ever sold has gone thru an FFL

EVERY FRICKEN ONE.

So as usual you don't KNOW squat.

[oneshooter]

133. I rarly sell a firearm, but all that I have sold have been to CHL holders.

You know, like Myrna who only got her CHL because it made it easier and faster to obtain them.

Oneshootr
Livin in Texas

[Hoyt]

134. Hope more follow you two in ensuring guns go to someone who can at least pass minimal BGcheck.

Unfortunately, there are plenty who have never done that, and oppose any proposed law requiring gun sales go through FFL so backgrounds can at least be checked to a minimal degree.

[RSillsbee]

214. I've sold 8 or 9 w/out a back ground check

Bought a few that way too.


Did you have a point?

[rl6214]

106. You gonna prove that it's "common practice among the gun culture"

or are you just pulling that out of your orafice as usual?

[ileus]

107. it's true remember all those toters drawing down on him? you gunners...

[Hoyt]

135. Let's see how many support laws requiring sales through FFL for background check. Not many.

[ManiacJoe]

166. Most oppose the FFL part, not the background check part.

Current federal law prohibits the public from using the NICS system.

[Hoyt]

169. So you support any person checking on your or anyone's background under guise of selling a gun?

I don't think that'll work because anyone could call up and say they need a background check on so-and-so. Needs to be an FFL who is accountable for improper use of the system.

Yep, you'd have to pay a little to move your guns -- so be it. There needs to be additional cost to all this gun madness.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

171. Why?

Serious question - why does there NEED to be an additional cost for those who have done nothing wrong to exercise their rights, not only to own firearms, but to buy/sell private property?

[Hoyt]

175. Because criminals acquire guns by stealing them or buying them "legally" from some gunner who

does not care who he sells it to as long as they have cash -- thus, bypassing the few checks we have on guns.

Lots of things are legal, but not to society's benefit -- letting your indoor water run all day (though expensive); flying the vile confederate flag; shipping jobs overseas; just to get started.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

177. Ok, we get that criminals do criminal things...

That does not explain why you believe the law abiding should be punished for criminal actions.

Purchases as you've described are quite rare. Most people would agree it would make far more sense to address the issues which occur more frequently than to address the exception conditions.

[Straw Man]

191. That's not the way NICS works. You should know that by now.

I don't think that'll work because anyone could call up and say they need a background check on so-and-so. Needs to be an FFL who is accountable for improper use of the system.

You don't get any data on a person when you run a NICS check on him/her. You call in, give the operator the person's ID info, and get one of three responses: "proceed," "delayed," or "denied." That's it: no reason given.

It's hard to imagine how one would make improper use of that information. Blackmail? "$100,000 or I tell your wife you get delayed on a long gun purchase!" Ludicrous. In any case, blackmail is illegal for anyone, FFL or not. No special accountability there.

How can you spend so much time posting in this forum and still be so woefully uninformed on the core issues?

[Hoyt]

201. "Denied" means you've got a serious problem in your background -- I don' think most people want

just anyone knowing that.

[friendly_iconoclast]

203. Or a fucked up search- there's been a few people here who were denied, but appealed and won.

Once again, all wind and no windmill...

[We_Have_A_Problem]

204. No it doesn't Hoyt.

It means the information available indicates a problem. This could be as simple as a database error. Remember, all that data is put in by humans and mistakes are made.

It could be that your name or SSN are similar to that of a genuine criminal and something got mixed up.

It could simply be that your soon-to-be-ex-spouse has sworn out a VPO against you as a matter of course in a divorce (even though you've NEVER had any violent tendencies in your life) and your lawyer does not yet know about it and has not had it removed.

It could even be as simple as the computers are down, although, that USUALLY results in a "wait" response.

Either way - there have been many people who have been flagged "denied" who have had those denials reversed. One of my closest friends had to deal with this for about 5 years while the NICS information was corrected and he is about as squeaky clean as it comes.

[Hoyt]

205. Either way guys, it's not something you want any unaccountable fool calling up and checking on you.

If there are that many mistakes, errors, distruptions, etc., do you want your next door neighbor or potential employer being able to check on you by pretending to be interested in selling you a gun? If not, then my point is validated.

[friendly_iconoclast]

215. Any $9/hr clerk in a Walmart that sells guns can already do that.

Looks like you're telling stretchers again (as Mark Twain described them)...

[Hoyt]

216. And if they do and use it against you, you can sue WalMart.

What you are talking about would let every dumbass do the same -- not just the $9/hour WalMart gun clerk who gets all excited talking to you about guns.

[friendly_iconoclast]

218. I must say I'm impressed, Hoyt- an attorney *and* a firearms expert.

Never knew you were such a Renaissance man...

[Hoyt]

219. I've known a lot of gunners and why they love/covet guns. Don't spend much time on firearm details.

[Straw Man]

222. In other words ....

I've known a lot of gunners and why they love/covet guns. Don't spend much time on firearm details.

... you don't want your cherished prejudices to be sullied by facts.

I'd still like to know how this pseudo-information could be used against someone and why and how an FFL or dealership is somehow more accountable than a private citizen. It's not anonymous, you know -- the person doing the checking has to ID him/herself. With an FFL it's a license number and a code word. With a private citizen it could be a DL#, SS#, etc.

[oneshooter]

195. How much cost? $2 ? $10 ? $100 ? $1000 ? More, or less? n/t

[Hoyt]

202. Depends on whether you know a fair FFL or one who'll screw you.

[oneshooter]

208. Why don't you mandate a price? n/t

[Hoyt]

217. Why don't you call your FFL buddies and ask them what they think is fair? If you don't like it, try

somebody else.

[oneshooter]

220. I was asking for YOUR opinion. n/t

[Hoyt]

221. I won't be charging you? When I sold my dad's 1950/60s Hi-Standard Citation 22, FFL charged me $35

to ship it to another FFL in another state. I signed a few documents and that was it on my end. Not sure what that FFL charged the buyer. Seemed reasonable to me.

[rl6214]

227. Pulling another one out here

[ileus]

137. funny thing is I buy most my firearms off a LEO without a background check.

[Hoyt]

170. Nothing funny about you adding to your cache of weapons.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

174. I noticed...

you ignored a direct question and instead chose to make a snarky comment. Why is that?

[oneshooter]

176. Because he didn't have time to squat and get you an answer. n/t

[RSillsbee]

213. I don't like AKs

will you accept a Mini 14? How about an M1A?

[one-eyed fat man]

139. One more time, the family fails

http://www.laketahoenews.net/2011/09/s-tahoe-police-say-carson-city-shooter-had-history-of-mental-issues/

History of mental issues

Sencion has had mental issues since at least April 2000. That is when South Lake Tahoe police officers assisted with getting him committed to receive psychiatric care.

South Tahoe Police Chief Brian Uhler told Lake Tahoe News the police report is being given to Carson City officers to assist them with their investigation into the Sept. 6 shooting spree at the IHOP in Nevada’s state capital. Uhler would not release it to the media.

Officials with El Dorado County Mental Health Department in South Tahoe deferred comments to the Placerville office, which did not return calls Tuesday afternoon.

Like Loughner, once again the family has known they have been living with a nutcase. Once again the mental history was not entered into the system so once again there is no background to check.

Not that there isn't a background, but once again the shooter's family and friends shield him from the consequences of his mental illness. You want to dance in the blood about something, hold his family responsible for harboring a dangerous lunatic.

If you had a vicious dog you let roam loose, you'd get busted for it.

[AtheistCrusader]

147. Loughner's parents should be in jail.

This is insane. We can't get single payer. We can't get decent medical coverage for these people, and on top of it all, friends and family shield them, and enable them.

These people need HELP, not excuses/cover.

[one-eyed fat man]

149. Mental institutions were deliberately dismantled.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/pictureshow/2011/09/04/140146150/americas-asylums-in-photographs

...While the words "insane asylum" conjure up images of dark, scary places, his photographs reveal buildings that are stunning, beautiful almost castle-like....

"The asylums of the 19th century — some of them were the largest buildings of their time," he says....

Those compounds were also self-sufficient; patients produced their own food and even generated their own electricity...

Many state hospitals were closed down decades ago, as states radically reshaped their mental health systems and de-emphasized institutionalization.

Maybe warehousing the mentally ill in institutions was not such a bad approach. Now they are on the streets either being victimized or victimizing others. They often wind up in jails where they get no treatment at all.