Say, who ARE those "gun rights" folks?

[MrBenchley]

"The Montana Human Rights Network (MHRN) has been keeping watch on right-wing extremist groups in Big Sky Country since its inception in 1990. Over that time, they've had ample opportunity to examine the relationships between groups that call themselves "gun rights" organizations and those of broader and more controversial bents, like the Militia of Montana.
Ken Toole, MHRN's program director, says that as time went on, he and his colleagues noticed a strong relationship between gun-rights groups like the Montana Shooting Sports Association and broader-interest hate groups. And then, he says, they noticed something else: The same people who attended the militia meetings to talk about the need for an armed citizenry also came to school-board meetings to talk about the need for a creationist science curriculum. They were the same people who came to land-use meetings to argue for local control, and for their right to bring snowmobiles into Yellowstone Park.
Toole says that MHRN began to notice the critical importance that "gun rights" advocates played in a much broader scope. "'Gun rights' is just one piece of it," he says, "but it is the most politically inoculated piece, and I think that's why Montana has drifted so dramatically to the right."
That's also why MHRN decided to go public with its findings. The result is a 50-page report, "Shooting for Respectability: Firearms, False Patriots, and Politics in Montana," which details the role that the "gun rights" issue has played in advancing an extremist right-wing agenda that encompasses far more than guns.
"'Gun rights' has been a vehicle for groups like the Militia of Montana," Toole says. "It is one of the areas where groups like that effectively reach common ground with people, make them believe their liberty is threatened, and recruit them and move them along under a broader, right-wing agenda." "

http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/features/reader/0%2C2061%2C569928%2C00.html

[el_gato]

1. oh yeah, but leftists and progressive people shouldn't have guns?!

LOL! gimme a break

[MrBenchley]

2. Geeze, gato...

Don't cry to me because the scum of the earth is pushing this bogus rubbish...

[slackmaster]

3. Think about the children

The problem isn't just guns, it's all dangerous objects!



For more information go to: http://www.allmax.com/MILT/ :D

[Frodo_Baggins]

4. Oh the horrror!

They have an AGENDA! Get down!

[MrBenchley]

5. Yeah, and what a crappy far right wing agenda it is, too...

Worth recalling that Iverglas found some time ago that the candidates who received funds from the Brady Center and other gun control groups also received money from environmental and other liberal causes...whereas the ones who got money from the NRA also got money from the scum of the earth....

[CO Liberal]

6. "People Are Known By The Company They Keep"

My late mother used to say that all the time when I was a kid. And ya know what??? She was right!!!!

[MrBenchley]

7. Exactly so....

Your mother was a wise woman...

[Columbia]

8. I guess she never told you

That the world isn't in black and white either, but filled with a spectrum of colors.

Guess it also wouldn't hurt to mention that this entire line of "reasoning" so often used by you two in an attempt to discredit gun rights advocacy is one big logical fallacy?

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/guiltbya.html

[MrBenchley]

9. Funny...

It seems like the whole damn spectrum ended up on the gun groups' enemies lists....

But hey, if you don't like your playmates, get out of the sandbox....

[Columbia]

10. Amazing

How one can repeat a logical fallacy even when presented with it immediately prior. The LEAST you could do is use another fallacy instead.

[CO Liberal]

11. Using Another Fallacy Reminds Me Of Something Else Mom Used to Say

"Two wrongs don't make a right."

:-)

[Columbia]

12. Of course not

But it'd at least make it a bit more interesting. Using the same logical fallacies one after another is just so passe and boring. :boring:

[MrBenchley]

16. One wonders what your mom would have made

of folks who try to pretend a website that announces it makes "the right wing sexy" has content worth discussing...

Mine would have laughed her ass off...

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

68. Shady logic....

Yeah, it's that RKBA "logic" or whatever it is....only racists say "You're known by the company you keep" in RKBA fantasy land.

I notice the actual racism of pro-gun numbnuts like the Militia of Montana don't seem to bother you much.

[Cooper]

69. on the contrary

racism bothers me a great deal. particularly against Arab-Americans, who i think are in a hard position right now, under our current administration. but all racism bothers me, and i'd say it's the societal vice that concerns me most.

i meant no offense by my earlier (now deleted) post, and i hope nobody took my sarcasm seriously.

<<I notice the actual racism of pro-gun numbnuts like the Militia of Montana don't seem to bother you much.>>

what i was trying to say earlier, and apparently said poorly enough to piss off some moderators, is that labeling all gun-rights activists as racist is about like labeling all black men criminal gangbangers. "you're known by the company you keep" is a dangerous statement.

[MrBenchley]

70. Uh-HUH

"labeling all gun-rights activists as racist"
You will notice, as this report spells out, that every racist piece of shit you can find is spouting this bogus "gun rights" crap at the top if their lungs.

[Cooper]

71. one more time . . .

YES . . . most racist groups are at least nominally pro-gun.

that does not make all pro-gun groups racist.

in addition, a true pro-gunner wants EVERYBODY to have gun rights. racists only want them for the race of their choice.

are you trying to say that anyone who is pro-gun is racist?

[MrBenchley]

72. And one more time

"that does not make all pro-gun groups racist."
However, the largest group is the NRA, which features a board of directors studded with racist swine such as Nugent and Cooper. The second largest group is the GOA headed by Larry Pratt, a racist so virulent even Pat Buchanan had to shun him publicly.

[Cooper]

77. so let me get this straight

what you're saying is that all pro-gunners are racist? why don't you make it clear and quit implying things, or would a clear argument be too hard to defend? are you really ready to call every pro RKBA poster on this board a racist?

even if Nugent, Cooper and Pratt were hard-core white pride guys, that does not even make the NRA/GOA itself a racist organization, much less other gun groups, and certainly does not reflect the attitudes of individual members. and the fact is that they are NOT hard-core white pride guys, though i will admit they are too close for my tastes. but all the evidence i could find against them was from biased sources making some pretty weak claims (ie: Ted Nugent says n****r, which makes him racist, though if snoop dog says it it's ok).

why not call into question the character of John Kerry supporters . . . after all, just like Larry Pratt, he "once attended a meeting" where the assassination of US Senators was discussed. are you going to vote for Kerry over Bush? does that make you a terrorist? after all, you've got "ties" to "certain organizations."

check out these guys. these are some card-carrying white power rednecks if i ever saw one:

http://www.jpfo.org/
http://www.pinkpistols.com/
http://www.womenshooters.com/
http://www.a-human-right.com/

gun control, both in america and in the world in general, has some SERIOUSLY racist roots. wanna talk about those?

[MrBenchley]

78. Hard to believe you're really having this much trouble

figuring out that these racist asswipes are peddling the bogus "gun rights" doctrine. I find it hard to believe that anybody could look at a movement that has Larry Pratt, Pat Buchanan, David Duke, Trent Lott, Orrin Hatch, John AshKKKroft and Ted Nugent as its LEADERS and be mystified as to whehter it's racist or not.

"even if Nugent, Cooper and Pratt were hard-core white pride guys, that does not even make the NRA/GOA itself a racist organization"
IF? Who DO you think you're kidding? The fish stinks from the head, coop.

"why not call into question the character of John Kerry supporters"
Hey, peddle any right wing crap you feel like, coop. Nobody here will be surprised...most days the RKBA crowd doesn't do anything but slur Democrats and post dittohead nonsense.

"just like Larry Pratt, he "once attended a meeting" where the assassination of US Senators was discussed"
Rush tell you that, coop?

[Cooper]

79. hard to believe

<<figuring out that these racist asswipes are peddling the bogus "gun rights" doctrine.>>

do you mean it's hard to believe i'm having so much trouble agreeing with you even when you can't argue any points without falling back on blind rhetoric?

i give up. though i would hardly call David Duke or Pat Buchannan gun rights "leaders," i can see how you could argue that there is racism high up in some gun rights organizations.

but why won't you answer MY questions: are you calling all pro-gunners racist? what about the ones on this board? how do you explain the racist origins of gun control?

so when you call me racist because i am pro RKBA, that's ok, but when i question your character for supporting Kerry, it's right wing crap i'm using to slur you?

<<Rush tell you that, coop? >>

actually, no. the FBI told me that. did michael moore tell you Nugent and Cooper were racist? or did you believe it because you saw someone spell their names with three K's?

[MrBenchley]

80. Hell, I think anybody

who's going to peddle the "John Kerry wanted to assassinate senators" bullshit is somebody I'm unlikely to agree with.

"why won't you answer MY questions"
I've answered them more than once.

"how do you explain the racist origins of gun control?"
Hey, I think I've been more than clear in pointing out what horseshit the entire "gun rights" movement and its claims are, with concrete FACTS to back it up. But if you want to pretend that pro-gun control Chuck Schumer is racist and anti-gun control David Duke is not, be my guest...it wouldn't be any more absurd than some of the other RKBA gibberish.

"the FBI told me that"
Want to show us a link to that story? I'd love to see what right wing cesspool you dredged that out of.

[Cooper]

81. you're right

it IS bullshit. of course John Kerry doesn't want to assassinate senators. of course that doesn't make you an assassin because you support him.

of course i'm not a racist.

see how that works out? damn right i got it from some right wing cesspool. that was the POINT. kind of like the left wing cesspool you got the NRA=racism idea from. spin is spin.

oh, and here's a source:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/03/23/kerry.fbi/index.html

<<"why won't you answer MY questions"
I've answered them more than once. >>

actually not. you never said whether or not you thought all pro-gunners are racist. so . . . do you?

also, when i bring up the origins of gun control, you don't answer that at all. unless you call the schumer thing an answer. but surely you just misunderstood. i know you wouldn't try to confuse the issue. you probably have some great answers as to why the first gun control laws in this country applied to blacks only . . . right?

and just for the record, i never said David Duke wasn't racist.

[MrBenchley]

82. Geeze, coop....

"the left wing cesspool you got the NRA=racism idea from"
It's wonderful to see <sarcasm>another progressive viewpoint</sarcasm>..."left wing cesspool" my ass.

And I didn't need anything but a glance at the NRA to see what racist pieces of shit they are...

"you never said whether or not you thought all pro-gunners are racist"
I take 'em one at a time...it's interesting, though...we keep getting told that there are lots of rootin'-tootin' gun totin' liberals, but then all we ever get from the RKBA crowd ius right wing horseshit and slurs on Democrats.

Look around at gun owners' online forums, and you'll find lots of racist gibberish posted with nary a word of complaint by the denizens there....

There's hardly a higher profile racist (or a more idiotic scumbag) in America than Ted Nugent, but you can search in vain for any gun owners complaining about him serving on the NRA board.


"also, when i bring up the origins of gun control, you don't answer that at all."
Been there, done that months ago, coop. And yeah, I did dismiss it. If you want to wallow in that horseshit, do it without me.

[natasha1]

83. Forget it, Cooper...

but why won't you answer MY questions: are you calling all pro-gunners racist? what about the ones on this board? how do you explain the racist origins of gun control?

When painted into a corner, certain members of this board will simply ignore your question. My advice: Don't push. Your posts will be labled "harrasing" and you'll get a tombstone.


Nat

[Cooper]

84. gotcha

i'm new here and don't know everybody's posting habits. thanks for the advice. :)

[MrBenchley]

85. Gee, natasha...

You mean you think I didn't answer his question?

[hansberrym]

13. Our next President, that's who....

Unless you'll be voting for Nader, my quess is you'll be voting for the same "gun rights" nutcase that I will vote for.

http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/sportsmen/common_sense.html


But don't lose any sleep over it, a vote for Kerry is not a vote for the Militia of Montana, despite the spin from jointogether.

[MrBenchley]

14. Too TOO funny, hans...

That would be the same John Kerry the RKBA crowd was calling "evil" and declaring they would NEVER vote for not so long ago.

[hansberrym]

17. What do you think? Is Kerry evil for supporting gun rights?

For myself, gun rights and gun control are not mutually exclusive.

Reasonable gun control laws are not an infringement on our right to bear arms any more than laws against fraud, counterfeiting, and slander are infringment on the freedom of the press.

[MrBenchley]

20. I think there's nothing as funny

as the RKBA crowd spinning...

"For myself, gun rights and gun control are not mutually exclusive."
So tell us hans....do YOU support the assault weapons ban, as Kerry does?
Do you support closing the gun show loophole, as Kerry does?

[hansberrym]

34. Sometimes close enough is good enough for me.

If your looking for a candidate that matches your views 100% you ain't gonna find that candidate.

I support an individual right to keep and bear arms as does John Kerry (though Kerry's interpretation is likely much more narrow than my own, still his view on gun rights seems much closer to mine than yours)


No, I don't support the Assault Weapons Ban because I disagree with its premise -it attempted to prevent indiviual citizens from owning military style weapons (IMO that is the heart of the second amendment). The idea of banning bayonet lugs as a measure to control crime is assinine, I can't recall ever reading about someone bayoneting a shopkeeper to death. The AWB was really meant to convey the idea that individual citizens ought not own military style weapons. And yes, Kerry's talking points do play into this theme in that he emphasizes hunting as the main right protected by the Second amendment, but at least he recognizes and promises to uphold individual second amendment rights.



You might notice that I stay out of the gunshow loophole threads as I do not know the details. I have never attended a gun show, nor do I keep up on that issue, so I don't hold that vote against him in the least. This seems to be one of those issues that makes good talking points but really doesn't matter much.

[DavidMS]

15. I don't think its about guns...

Its about being co-opted. I hate making this parallel but its not much different than International ANSWER (a hard-line pro-totalitarian Kim-Il-Jung-ist) organization did to the Iraq war.

Firearms related issues have traction and elements of the hard right (like the Fundy right, the neo-fascists, racists, etc) have latched onto it as gun owners have a significant symbolic emotional investment in the issue. Our challenge is to do the following:

Introduce an alternative pro-gun narrative:
1. that preaches personal responsibility (directed at crooked CEOs)
2. Makes a distinction between monopoly capitalism (what we have in the US) and social free market economics (that emphasizes addressing the needs of the common Americans).
3. discusses national defense in economic-nationalist terms (End the failed neo-liberal economic experiment as its has produced a few rich and many poor).
4. attack religious dogmatism not religion or spirituality. Organized religion is bad, faith is good. Doctrine is bad, inquiry is good.
5. Redirect anger at liberal "elites" to corporate elites.
6. Attack anti-intellectualism on all fronts as "shackling the human mind by preventing free inquiry."
7. Recast the structural inequality argument in a more anarchist direction.

In short, since there is already a political alignment shift and disalusement with the status quo on the right, take advantage of it.

For instance never say "affirmative action" say "cast the net wider for suitable candidates."

[Superfly]

18. Me, Me, Me!!! I'm a gun rights "folk".

And, I'm you're neighbor.

[MrBenchley]

19. And evidently

you are also somebody who actually believes what he reads in right wing extremist cesspools like World Nut DAily.

[Superfly]

21. And evidently

you have nothing in your bag of tricks other than ridiculous comments such as this. As usual, you are unable to refute the substance of the article. It must be the water in NJ...you might want to tell McGreevy to look into that.

[MrBenchley]

22. What else is needed, fly?

The substance of the article (which I posted and have no intention of refuting) is that this bogus "gun rights" crap is just a cover for extremist right wing politics...

And we see the RKBA crowd here posting extremist crap from right wing cesspools day after day after day, and indignantly demanding that the "substance" be discussed. Just like we see them slandering any Democrat anyones ever heard of....

[Superfly]

23. What Guns???

It's about a fucking ASHTRAY (in the other thread). Jesus, just when you think there is no limit...

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Superfly]

25. Now, that's not very nice, is it?

You should learn to play better. I am still waiting for you to refute the substance in the ashtray thread....No can do, eh?

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Superfly]

27. Still waiting Bench....

Why don't you get over there and take your anti-gun agenda and try to answer a thread about an ashtray.

[MrBenchley]

28. Go ahead and wait, fly....

It'll be a long goddamn time before I care what you want....

[Superfly]

29. Likewise...

I truly hope we never meet. It will be the absolute lowpoint of my life.

[MrBenchley]

30. Enjoy World Nut Daily....

[Superfly]

31. Thank you, I will enjoy all news sources

and judge them all on the basis of their substance and not on their name. That's what adults do, ya know?

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Spoonman]

37. Hey Fly....

Someone very famous made a quote quite simular to that....
...where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.....

I would have to agree that educated well rounded adults should be caple of this.

[MrBenchley]

38. Hey that was Martin Luther King, spoon....

some asshole with a gun shot him.

Of course, Dr. King already knew all about bigoted lying conservatives of the sort that write for World Nut Daily. And he knew the sort of bigoted shitheels like the NRA when he saw them.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[billbuckhead]

73. A sniper shot Martin Luther King.

Not just any gun, but a special gun.

[FeebMaster]

76. Special how? (nt)

[Superfly]

39. He was a very wise man...

too bad more progressive and liberals really don't live by his example.

I think a lot could be solved if people stopped and really examined what others are trying to say and then approach a rebuttal from that POV, rather than just dismissing a person or source based on outward appearances.

[MrBenchley]

42. Too bad some piece of shit with a gun shot him....

"I think a lot could be solved if people stopped and really examined what others are trying to say"
What do you suppose World Net Daily is trying to say, eh?

[Superfly]

43. Why don't you read it and tell us?

It might be a good exercise.

[MrBenchley]

44. Been there, done that...

It's how I know it's far right wing shit, of interest mostly to the kind of asswipe expecting Hillary to be indicted any minute.

It doesn't fool anybody else....

[Superfly]

45. No, I can't say that I believe that

[MrBenchley]

46. Yeah, but YOU believe what you read at World Net Daily

That Michelle Malkin seem like an honest stand-up journalist to you, does she?

How about that "expose" on the "church/state myth" that they've got there....seems like good honest journalism to you, does it?

How about Michael "I hope you die of AIDS" Savage's "best seller"....seem like a book YOU want to read?

How about the rubbish about John Kerry at the "assassination summit?" That seems to you like honest journalism?

[Spoonman]

47. It appears

your well versed in what World Net Daily prints.

How do you suppose one gets so well versed?

That stuff will rot your brain, I recommend you stop reading it.

[MrBenchley]

49. Yeah, spoon, all it takes is a glance at their headlines

to know it's a piece of shit.

[Superfly]

48. I judge each on it's

merit or lack thereof. Sometimes it's important to read the works of people you despise so you can better articulate your own positions.

[MrBenchley]

50. Too TOO funny....

"Sometimes it's important to read the works of people you despise"
And sometimes it's enough to know that a turd is a turd....

[Superfly]

51. True, true...

can't say that I disagree with that, but I still think it's important to gain another viewpoint, even though it may be one that is not one you personally enjoy.

[Liberal Classic]

35. Jointogether.org are big drug warriors hmmm...

Not familiar with jointogether.org I went to check them out. Out of curiousity I started reading the other half of their website, not the part containing pro gun control articles but the part on alcohol and drugs.

After reading the site I believe that the site is pro-prohibition.

The case histories in alcohol policies contained no mention of the alcohol prohibition. Facts and figures tell of the alarming amount of alcohol americans drink, extol the virtues of putting liquor stores out of business, and accuses the beer and wine industries of tobacco-company-like malfeasance such as:

- Create the public impression that "everyone drinks" when statistics reflect the majority of American adults consume little or no alcohol


and


High profile community support plays a significant role in normalizing alcohol consumption. The alcohol industry purchases the credibility of the groups/causes they support.


Damn them for normanlizing alcohol consumption! Demon Rum!

Other articles demonize tobacco (no hard task these days) with articles entitled "Smoking Accelerates Mental Decline" and "Smoking a Cause of Stress, Not Relief."

The clincher for me was "Walters Criticizes Nevada Legalization Effort"

During a visit to Las Vegas to discuss a federal effort to fight prescription drug misuse, U.S. drug czar John Walters spoke out against a ballot initiative to legalize marijuana in Nevada, the Las Vegas Review-Journal reported March 12. Walters said legalizing marijuana is "not an area for legitimate debate."

So, MrBenchley, I suggest you invesigate the source of articles. You're quick to castigate someone for posting articles from sources you don't like so you should take care in choosing sources of your own. After reading these other articles from that site I am certianly going to scrutinize anything they write with a critical eye.

It seems to me that they are ban happy: keep drugs banned, ban guns, ban smokes, bring back alcohol prohibition rah rah.

[MrBenchley]

36. Gee, you mean you think unbridled drug use is a good thing?

"After reading the site I believe that the site is pro-prohibition.
The case histories in alcohol policies contained no mention of the alcohol prohibition. "

Well, that pretty much says it all....

"So, MrBenchley, I suggest you invesigate the source of articles."
Yeah, I do.

[Liberal Classic]

52. I was under the impression you were opposed to the drug war

I guess you're a drug warrior, too. Outstanding.

[MrBenchley]

53. Hey, anybody who can mischaracterize "join together"

that inaccurately probably gets any impression he wishes...

"Join Together Online (JTO) is a comprehensive network of free Internet services supporting community-based efforts to address substance abuse and gun violence. Thousands of community leaders, professionals and concerned citizens use JTO every day to be more informed and effective in their local efforts to reduce and prevent these devastating public health problems."

http://www.jointogether.org/about/web/


Funny you never answered my question....are you pretending totally unbridled drug use is a good thing?

[Liberal Classic]

57. Opposition to the drug war does not mean tacit support of drug abuse

That is exactly the kind of thing a drug warrior says. If you ask anyone on DU who opposes the drug war including me if drug abuse is a good thing you get the same answer, no of course not. This concept is so basic I didn't realize anyone on DU was unable to make this distinction. Mr Benchley, you may be a leftist, but I don't think you are very liberal. I am leaning towards the opinion that jointogether represents the ONDCP and MADD.

[MrBenchley]

58. "the kind of thing a drug warrior says"

"Mr Benchley, you may be a leftist, but I don't think you are very liberal."
Gee....I'm not the one who keeps jumping in threads to stick up for right wing scum like the Militia of Montana....or piss and moan about Mothers Against Drunk Driving...

[MrBenchley]

54. From Orcinus this AM:

A look at far right wingers pimping for Ranch Rescue and other armed militia group...

When the bullets fly
Wednesday, March 24, 2004  
Via a World O' Crap post at Sadly, No comes this item from the periphery of the conservative movement, proferred by a real piece of work named Paula Devlin, who adopts an interesting view of property rights -- one, it must be noted, that is not significantly different than that promoted by the Montana Freemen, the militia movement and other right-wing extremists -- in a piece titled "Serfdom, American Style".....

[MrSandman]

55. WTH?

[MrBenchley]

56. Click on the links

It's sure as hell clear....except perhaps to those trying to pretend WND is a legitimate news source.

[MrSandman]

59. According to the links,

they think Bellesiles is a scientist.

[MrBenchley]

60. In other words, "gun rights" is far right wing horseshit

peddled by scum like the Militia of Montana...or the turds at American Daily.

[MrSandman]

62. Huh

http://www.jointogether.org/gv/resources/database/reader/0,2045,568559,00.html

Soft Skull Press gets it.

[MrBenchley]

63. And evidently you don't...

since you seem to want to pretend history is a science.

[MrSandman]

74. It is refreshing to see it treated as an art...

:-)

[Big_Balled_Dem]

65. Just like "abortion rights"

Is pushed by the Daily Worker and the Red Chinese govt.

[MrBenchley]

66. Funny...

The ugly folks trying to limit a woman's rights is pretty much the same far right wing scum peddling this "gun rights" horseshit.

[DavidMS]

61. The interesting part of the post is a little farther down:

It would be easier to feel sympathy for this rancher if he were to cooperate more fully with the Border Patrol, but he may have his own reasons for being leery.

But also worth noting: The same rancher wants nothing to do with Ranch Rescue, either.

This story is a classic case of how the extremist right finds a way to thrive: It injects itself into situations in which the government is actually failing its citizens, and not coming up with any realistic solutions either. In that sense, the situation for border communities in the current decade is not unlike that facing farmers in Middle America in the 1990s: the genuine grievances are going undressed, and when that happens in a democracy, then extremists find fertile ground for recruitment. http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/

The Bold is my emphasis on that text. Essentially it looks like the tin-foil hat brigade hijacked a major issue and are whoring it to death as a means of mobilizing a population in there direction. Should the left address the entire immigration/labor/drug smuggling/porous borders/what-it-means-to-be-an-American Gordian knot? Yes. Do I know the answer? No.

Does anyone have any ideas on it?

[MrBenchley]

64. Excellent analysis

One problem is that the gun rights crowd makes a not-too-subtle appeal to long-festering racism on this issue.

[DavidMS]

75. I don't think its the gun rights crwod hijacking the issue...

I think its a bunch or racist crackers causing static (the own guns but I doubt its their primary obsession, its Centeral Americans). Some strong federal law inforcement should solve it. Another reasion to vote Kerry in the Election.