A reminder on the "Ocala Incident"

[MyrnaLoy]

One incident. Remind me, isn't this the same forum complaining about anecdotal vs statistical? One incident huh? How many doctor visits in one year happen in ole Ocala? One incident? From the anecdotal crowd no less.

Now that's funny!

"The law arose out of the so-called “Ocala incident,” in which a young mother in 2010 was dropped from a doctor’s practice because she refused to answer questions about gun ownership. Her cause found its way to the Legislature, which came up with similar instances around the state that some lawmakers compared to interrogations." http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/federal-judge-blocks-enforcement-of-fla-law-restricting-doctor-gun-talks-with-patients/2011/09/14/gIQADgGgSK_story.html

One more for the "anecdotal mock outrage" crowd, "In her ruling, Cooke said she found very little evidence of widespread harassment or discrimination of gun owners by doctors."


Really Florida, one incident? Well bad law and the NRA has been put in it's place. Glad someone had some sense to overturn this. I think I'm beginning to understand, it's only anecdotal when you guys don't like it right? I mean this happened once and it's like all statistical and crap huh? Widespread! Let's call the NRA and a special session!!

Yeah, the anecdotal crowd. Wanna know what's not anecdotal? Eight kids shot and killed every day in America. That's some real shit right there! Wanna no what's not statistical? The "Ocala incident".

[RZM]

1. I think there should be a distinction here regarding what type of medicine is being practiced

If the discussion concerns the psychological health of the patient, then I think guns are fair game. If it's a prostate exam, it's not relevant. But even then, it's still kind of a red herring. Even if your doctor says don't own guns, a person will still do so if they want to. Doctors tell us to not smoke, but it's just advice. If you want to still smoke, you can. As long as guns are allowed to by law, them's the breaks. Seems like a rather odd arena to be fighting this battle.

[MyrnaLoy]

3. It probably

wouldn't be a prostrate exam since it was directed at Family Practice and Pediatricians.

[barbtries]

2. Eight kids shot and killed every day in America.

Eight kids shot and killed every day in America. every day.

[GreenStormCloud]

11. WRONG.

You can get the true number from the Center for Disease Control, at http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe

A child is a human who has not yet reached puberty, commonly age 12 or below. For 2009 the number of firearm deaths for the age bracket 0 to 12 was 225. That doesn't even come out to one per day.

You got your number from the VPC. To get eight per day on has to use an age bracket all the way up to 19. At 18 a person can serve in the military and can vote. Your number includes adults being counted as children to falsely inflate the number shot and killed.

[Remmah2]

15. I wonder how many of those "teens" were involved in gang activity.

Or other illegal behavior or risky activity?

[iverglas]

40. There we go!

The unimportant people that we don't have to worry about.

Never mind that many of the victims of "gang activity", including youngsters, are BYSTANDERS. Hell, some of them are even asleep in their own beds.

I'll be bookmarking this one for next time somebody tells me that nobody ever mouths this meme hereabouts.

Just by the bye: if you wonder, why don't you try finding out?

[barbtries]

18. 17 or below

but of course a 21-year-old is still a kid to me, and my youngest is 19. however you want to slice it - too many people are dying by guns in this country.

http://www.tincher.to/deaths.htm

i googled and am at work so cannot pursue this further. one is too many.

[GreenStormCloud]

19. Good link.

I one is too many, then you should be really upset by the number of children that die from falls, drowning, poisoning, and even walking. Yes, more children have accidents while walking and die than are killed by guns. I am using the definition of a child as 12 or under.

[rl6214]

20. A lot more impact can be made in child deaths elsewhere

The Top Five Causes Of Unintentional Injury involving children:

1. Car Accidents: Kill 260,000 children a year and injure about 10 million children. They are the leading cause of death among children and a leading cause of child disability.


712 each day



2. Drowning: Kills more than 175,000 children annually. Up to 3 million children each year survive a drowning incident. Due to brain damage in some survivors, nonfatal drowning has the highest average lifetime health and economic impact of any type of child injury. 


479 each day


3. Burns: Fire-related burns kill nearly 96,000 children a year. 


263 each day

4. Falls: Nearly 47,000 children fall to their deaths every year, but hundreds of thousands more children sustain serious injuries from a fall.

129 each day 
 

5. Poisoning: More than 45,000 children die each year from unintended poisoning.

123 each day



http://www.alivepast5.com/child-death-statistics.html

[SteveM]

23. Too many, but fewer. Murder rates have been falling for over 15 yrs.

If you have any suggestions as to government regulations and laws which will directly address these death rates, please advise. Keep in mind that the murder rates (by all methods) have fallen even as the number of firearms in civilian hands has risen by well over 100,000,000.

Prohibition is an ornate priest, eyes cast heavenward, trailing a peculiar smell.

Watch Ken Burns' "Prohibition" on PBS, starting October 2.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

35. One is too many...

...for the people it affects. In terms of public policy, one or one million do not count. No amount justifies the destruction of a right.

[pipoman]

37. Ohhhh, your one of the "one is too many crowd"

do you apply this to everything or just those things you don't happen to participate in?

"One is too many", never been a stupider saying...ever.

[SteveM]

22. "Kids," ay? You define kids by what gun-controllers say?

Well, before the age of 12, I knew how to load and fire a revolver, rifle and shotgun. I was taught by my Dad. Guess he figured I wouldn't be a kid for long. Especially when I turned 12.

Check with the National Safety Council and you can get another look; this one at accidental "gun-deaths" of children. That category of deaths has experienced a decrease in fatalities to where it ranks below the other major categories listed.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

34. Really?

Because the last numbers I saw indicated ~175 by accidental shooting. That works out to quite a bit less than 1 per day.

Now, if you're using the Brady Campaign numbers, which include "children" as old as 25, then perhaps you have a point.

Otherwise, you're simply believing and parroting a falsehood.

[rl6214]

4. All the other threads on this aren't enough?

You've got to throw a tantrum in one of your own?

[MyrnaLoy]

5. I do!

Thanks for noticing! Since you care so much I'll leave you with this:

"CLAY COUNTY, Ind. (WTHI) - Five children have been involved in accidental shootings in just the past year in Clay, Vermillion and Vigo Counties, four of those children survived." http://www.wthitv.com/dpp/news/local/accidental-child-shootings-on-rise

"The 25-year-old East St. Louis mother accused of shooting and killing her two young children was transferred on Thursday to Belleville from St. Louis, where she has been held since the double-murder." Read more: http://www.bnd.com/2011/09/16/1862154/mother-facing-murder-charges-moved.html#ixzz1Y6eawco7

"While a 4-year-old boy continues his recovery in the weeks since his brother accidentally shot him with their father's service revolver, officials continue investigating his father for possible neglect." http://lubbockonline.com/crime-and-courts/2011-09-14/grandparents-care-brothers-after-accidental-shooting#.TnMXqtSQmFg

"A Savannah man Thursday was sent to Superior Court on charges he left a loaded gun on the bathroom floor where a 2-year-old boy found it and shot himself." http://savannahnow.com/news/2011-09-16/owner-gun-2-year-old-savannah-boy-shot-himself-going-superior-court#.TnMYBNSQmFg

"Police said Benny Kimbrough, 18, was in control of the gun when Anthony Clark, 6, shot himself in the head at a home on Old Rock Cut Road near Forest Park Saturday." http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/15391889/police-child-shoots-self-with-gun

"Amid the string of cautionary tales is the heartache of a Deerfield Beach father, who forgot his handgun in his pickup truck on an afternoon in February 2010. His 10-year-old son found the gun and shot and killed his 11-year-old brother." http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/fl-deadly-accidental-shootings-20110909,0,4354272.story

"Cinch Machado, the 4-year-old boy critically injured in a shooting accident Aug. 12 south of Orcutt, died Thursday at Cottage Hospital in Santa Barbara, according to the Santa Barbara County Sheriff’s Department" Read more: http://www.lompocrecord.com/news/local/article_671d9b0a-cbaf-11e0-8fee-001cc4c03286.html#ixzz1Y6hDrKLR

"Sacramento County sheriff's deputies are still investigating what likely was the accidental shooting of a 10-year-old girl at a Rancho Cordova residence this morning where deputies had cleared a large party just 30 minutes earlier, according to authorities." Read more: http://blogs.sacbee.com/crime/archives/2011/08/ten-year-old-gi.html#ixzz1Y6hj9gxx



Yeah, thanks for noticing, eight kids shot and killed every day in America.

[Remmah2]

6. Quite a few examples of poor parenting there.

But I guess it would be acceptable to punish society for the wrong doings of a few.

[GreenStormCloud]

12. Less than one child shot and killed per day.

See my post downthread on the number.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. Rational discourse.

You don't.

[rl6214]

17. Eight kids shot every day in America, huh?

If you REALLY cared about children, you would try to make a difference where it really counts.


The Top Five Causes Of Unintentional Injury involving children:

1. Car Accidents: Kill 260,000 children a year and injure about 10 million children. They are the leading cause of death among children and a leading cause of child disability.


712 each day



2. Drowning: Kills more than 175,000 children annually. Up to 3 million children each year survive a drowning incident. Due to brain damage in some survivors, nonfatal drowning has the highest average lifetime health and economic impact of any type of child injury. 


479 each day


3. Burns: Fire-related burns kill nearly 96,000 children a year. 


263 each day

4. Falls: Nearly 47,000 children fall to their deaths every year, but hundreds of thousands more children sustain serious injuries from a fall.

129 each day 
 

5. Poisoning: More than 45,000 children die each year from unintended poisoning.

123 each day


You don't care about how many chldren die each year, if you did you would try to make a difference in the area with the highest number of deaths, you just want to push your anti-gun zealotry.

http://www.alivepast5.com/child-death-statistics.html

[Common Sense Party]

32. We need sensible car control, NOW. Just repeat it over and over. 712 kids each day!

712 kids each day! 712!

[SteveM]

24. You have been corrected by Green StormCloud. Again. nt

[MyrnaLoy]

26. not really

but if it makes you feel better to think that then OK.

[Remmah2]

27. Yes, really. nt

nt

[Pab Sungenis]

7. One cause celebre is all the Republicans need

Case in point:

[SteveM]

25. Prohibition and culture war does not become you. nt

[rrneck]

8. Thank you for sharing.

Everyone, thank Myrna for sharing. Now don't you feel better getting that out?

[aikoaiko]

9. As I've said before in your other threads on this topic, I'm ok with this ruling.

I think the law sent a message to doctors about discriminating against gun owners. Really, what kind of asshole doctor refuses to serve patients because they want to keep some information private.

And the court ruling sent a message to pro-gun lawmakers about certain boundaries.

win win

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. History is full of bad law created after a single incident

Court and Pols both seem to love to do that.

[AtheistCrusader]

13. I think it's a shitty law.

Seen similar sentiment from others here.

Nice way to set the tone for discussion there.

[Atypical Liberal]

16. Was anyone trying to show a statistical inference from the Ocala incident?

One incident. Remind me, isn't this the same forum complaining about anecdotal vs statistical? One incident huh? How many doctor visits in one year happen in ole Ocala? One incident? From the anecdotal crowd no less.

Firstly, I don't recall anyone trying to make a statistical inference about the prevalence of doctors asking about firearms based on this single incident.

Secondly, this is the way laws work. You don't have to go get a hundred examples of a case before you can write or pass legislation. All it takes is one, single, compelling case that legislators back and it's a done deal. However, very often, as in this case, there are many cases of such things happening before a case comes along that legislators can "hang their hat on" for making a law.

A prime example of this is "Caylee's Law", which several states are now considering, which makes it a crime not to report a missing child within a certain amount of time. No one is saying that this happens frequently, or that it has happened frequently. But all it took was one high-profile case and now several states are considering passing this as law.

If the law is good, it stands. If it is bad, it is challenged and falls.

[Euromutt]

21. If you think this is evidence of a double standard on the part of the pro-RKBA posters in here...

... you might want to check how many of us actually supported this law, and more importantly, how many were critical of it. I myself referred to the law as "akin to using a sledgehammer to swat a mosquito."

[russ1943]

28. 31 kids 17yrs old & younger shot & killed per day in 2008 in US

I don’t know what age range the speaker was using in his comment or the year(s) referenced in his “8 kids a day shot & killed every day in America” statement.
I do know and have posted repeatedly in this forum that there is a difference between being shot and killed. Not all those who are shot are killed. The latest 2008 statistics available from WISQARS indicate that for 17 yr olds & under there were a total of 11,189 firearm gunshot victims, of which 1,475 were fatal (killed) & 9,714 who were nonfatal firearm gunshot victims. So, for kids 17 yr old & under it can accurately be stated in 2008 there were 30.6 (31) shot & killed per day.

Kids 16 & under 19 per day
Kids 15 & under 16 per day
Kids 14 & under 9 per day

WISQARS Firearm Gunshot Nonfatal Injuries are available thru 2009, but firearm Deaths are not yet available on WISQARS for 2009.
Nonfatal injury reports provide national estimates of injuries treated in U.S. hospital emergency departments (ED).
Firearm gunshot: A penetrating force injury resulting from a bullet or other projectile shot from a powder-charged gun. This category includes gunshot wounds from powder-charged handguns, shotguns, and rifles. This category does NOT include the 8,712 nonfatal injuries caused by gunshot wounds from a BB or pellet rifle or pistol.

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html

[PavePusher]

29. Technically that should be "injured or killed"....

not "shot & killed".

There is a significant difference....

[gejohnston]

31. As I understand it

his number is from Brady and VPC. What they define child as anyone under 24 who was shot to death for any reason including justifiable homicide. The impression they are trying to make is that eight toddlers fatally shoot themselves a day. They used that number for years, so I have no idea what year and odds are, neither does he.

[russ1943]

33. Bullshit alert.

You understand this bullshit from where?
I’m sure you can provide us with a link where either Brady or VPC defined anyone under 24 as a “child”. Your use of the word toddlers is a laughable distortion of your own.

[gejohnston]

36. not at all

In other words, they are dishonest. Their propaganda is written to give you the impression that they are toddlers or young children under 12. They do not include only accidents. I remember seeing a commercial that did tried to say just that. I meant to type 19, my bad.
Brady seemed to have taken down the commercial. I'll find it.

http://med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm

[russ1943]

38. Of course they include more than accidents, otherwise they say so.

Your link to a University of Michigan Health System site http://med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm
is actually an example that using the age range & terminology “children and youth ages 0-19” isn’t only done by Brady & VPC, it is done by respectable universities, among others. I suppose you think they are dishonest too. That U of M site states; “This is equivalent to about 9 deaths per day, a figure commonly used by journalists.”

To determine who is dishonest, read the posts in this thread attacking MyrnaLoy & barbtries and then look in the mirror.

[gejohnston]

39. you don't understand propaganda do you?

VPC and Brady used the word children specifically and claim they are accidents.
Sorry, those other posts are correct. Dishonesty, like lying, means you intended to be untruthful. I accuse VPC and Brady of being dishonest, but not you or the others mentioned.

[Francis Marion]

30. Perspective

It's lamentable that anybody here gets shot who didn't deserve to get shot.

But what's the world standard for murder?

Let us suppose that 170,000,000 people were murdered, mostly by their own government, in the 20th century.

Within the 36,500 days in that century, 4,650 people were murdered evey day. In Turkey, Russia, Germany, China, Cambodia, Rwanda, Sudan...

But here, in a nation of 80,000,000 gun owners, it's a one in a million- your figure- for a 'kid' to get shot on any given day.

That's a damn sight better than having a whole town full of people worked, gassed, starved to death.

No system is perfect or free of defect. But of all the possible choices, a free- and by definition, armed- society is the best system I know of, if you want to die in your bed of old age.