Convert Your Semi-Auto Rifle to FULL-AUTO for Only $369 -- No License Required!

[LAGC]

(Mods, I'm purposefully posting this here and not in Outdoor Life, because I want to discuss its gun policy implications.)

Have any you guys and gals heard or seen this little accessory yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0BgLk1i9yY

http://www.slidefiresolutions.com/Product-SSAR-15.html

What do you think? Technically its completely legal under current law -- its not a mechanical device, but relies solely on "bump energy" with the stock bouncing in and out to assist in guiding your trigger finger back-and-forth in rapid motion, simulating full-auto operation.

I think its a pretty cool innovation, but it definitely raises questions: does this violate the SPIRIT of the law? Is it a "loop-hole" that needs to be plugged? Should such a device be banned or required to be registered under existing 1934 NFA regulations because it makes it too cheap and easy to simulate full-auto? Which begs the question: why should only rich people be able to afford and enjoy full-auto? (The cost of all the ammunition aside.)

I'm thinking of buying one (or more) and just sitting on them in case some nut-case decides to use one (or something like it) to mow down a bunch of kids, like that right-wing asshole in Norway. If the government did it like the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban worked, it might be legal to own "pre-bans" but not "post-bans" -- and I'm sure the going prices for the remaining supply will sky-rocket. Could be quite an investment.

Your thoughts?

[Kolesar]

1. I don't think Norway wants you...eom

[LAGC]

2. LOL, probably not.

What do you think about here in America though? How should we handle these accessories?

[oneshooter]

5. Remember that the BATFE once declared that a shoelace was a"full auto device". n/t

[Remmah2]

24. Delete

delete

[belcffub]

3. if the ATF changes their mind I have little doubt that...

they'ed want them all back... kinda like what happened with the Akins Accelerator...

[diveguy]

4. Yep

If and when the ATF rules this as a device, they will go after the customers too. just like they did with teh Akins device. You will then be out the 300 or so bucks. Better to learn to bumpfire without a device or save up the 15 grand for teh real deal.

[ileus]

6. Is there anything more useless than bump firing uncontrollably?

It's something that may appeal to mall ninjas the first few times, kind of like those plastic helmets with the funnel and 1" tubing, after the first time the new wears off and the owners realize how useless and costly "full auto" really is.

I'm the first to admit machine gun shoots are a hoot to attend, but I have zero use for an automatic rifle considering the cost of ammo and wear and tear on a 10,000 dollar weapon. No thanks...I'll pass.

[LAGC]

7. Watch the video, it seems like its alot more controllable than just random un-aided bump firing.

They show that you can fire in short controlled bursts as well as full-auto.

But you're right, the cost of ammo is definitely prohibitive. You can really go through a 1000-round case pretty fast, in just minutes.

[ileus]

11. maybe it's just me but I refuse to shoot more than 20 rounds...

at a time (fast fire) out of my AR's. But then again I'm kinda easy on all my mechanical devices....heat kills

[LAGC]

13. Yeah, I just think it would be fun to fire a few 3-round controlled bursts...

Make some watermelons or other juicy targets really explode. See how tight you can make your groups, etc.

Beats paying over $10,000 for a select-fire variant.

[AtheistCrusader]

63. It's still a ridiculous, sloppy-assed, dangerous way to fire a rifle.

It won't even have the accuracy of a true machine gun.

If someone was going to shoot at me with a fucking fully automatic weapon, I would prefer they did it with this piece of shit.

[jeepnstein]

8. It's a felony case waiting to happen.

BATFE will rule that this thing is in violation of NFA and then whoever has one will have much explaining to do. No loop hole on this one. It will flat-out get the full attention of the government and the existing laws. They'll get their hands on a sample, shoot it a couple of times, and then issue a ruling that it is not permissible.

I agree that the closing of the registry in 1986 was a bad thing. Full-auto was really not that popular before the government told us we couldn't have it. It's really not that practical for an individual citizen to go full auto but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have the option.

[MicaelS]

15. This is my opinion,

I would not waste the money on one of these. So what if BATFE approves now, all they have to do is issue a new ruling, and you're a criminal. I doesn't trust BATFE one damn bit. Fast and Furious / Gunwalker is just the latest example of poor decision making on their part.

[GreenStormCloud]

22. Full-auto was becoming popular in .22 caliber.

There was a company that was making .22LR machine guns that looked like scaled down M1919s and .22M that looked like scaled down .50 M2s. I think they were selling pretty well, then the registry closed.

[AtheistCrusader]

64. Probably not., It's a bump-fire. They recanted on the shoestring thing.

But this is ... a little different. Materially.

[jeepnstein]

70. This is a device, an elaborate one.

They'll rule that it is intended to alter the firearm so that more than one round can be fired with the pull of the trigger. And it won't be a huge leap to be able to say that. I wouldn't touch one of these devices with a ten foot pole bought from a Texas gun show. You might beat the charge, but you're going to take the ride.

Messing with the NFA is a good way to really ruin your life. Anyone remember the "adapters" that you used to be able to buy that would allow you to fasten a 2 liter bottle to the end of a pistol? They were cheap and it didn't take long for ATFE to rule on them.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

9. The SSAR-15 comes with a letter of BATFE approval as non-NFA.

It doesn't mean they cant change their minds... but they have explicitly and clearly stated that the SSAR-15 stock is 100% legal as an acessory for non-NFA use. Unlike the Akins device, the stock has no springs and requires the user to pull forward with the non-firing hand and still apply force to the trigger with the shooting hand. This is exacyle like regular bump firing. The Akins Accelerator had a spring assembly that used the recoil of the rifle to fully produce the action upon the trigger.

[AtheistCrusader]

65. Aikins had a BATFE approval letter too.

How'd that work out for him?

[Atypical Liberal]

10. The ATF will kill it.

Bill Atkins tried to make something like this before, the "Atkins Accelerator". The ATF even approved the prototypes, mostly because they could not get it to work. Later, after Bill had invested a boat-load of money into it, they got their hands on a production model that worked, and they said this was an illegal device.

http://jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/reds-akins-open.htm

All the device is is a spring-loaded stock to make bump-firing easier.

The ATF is not going to allow a stock that allows you to drop in a semi-automatic receiver and it becomes fully automatic.

Basically all you are doing is moving the fully-automatic machinery from inside the receiver to outside it.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

17. Why will the ATF kill it? It's not like Akins acellerator.

The akins had springs and used the rifle's recoil against the springed stock to produce full auto fire. You would just squeeze the trigger and the rifle did all the work for full auto fire (like a regular NFA machinegun). This stock uses no springs. The user must pull the body of the rifle forward with one hand and pull the trigger with the other... just like bumpfiring from the hip (except you're doing at your shoulder).

The ATF has "seen" the production model and gotten it to work and issued a lteer stating it is not an NFA controlled item.

[Atypical Liberal]

25. Time will tell.

It sounds to me like it is just like the Akins Accelerator minus the spring - the human body functions as the spring.

Maybe it will get a pass.

My guess is if a BATFE agent picks one up and it fires like a machine gun, they are not going to like it.

[GreenStormCloud]

23. No springs in this stock. N/T

[ileus]

12. 370 bucks I can add another 100 and buy and AK clone.

There's dozens of better uses for 370 bucks....and that's just firearm related products.

[LAGC]

14. Well, if the ATF doesn't change its mind and ban these things...

Maybe that company will make a version for AK variants, as well.

I've always liked cheaper Kalashnikovs over expensive AR-15's anyway.

Legal select-fire on an AK variant would be grand.

[-..__...]

18. Be sure and let Santa know.

We expect to be offering the AK version By Christmas 2011

http://akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90551

[LAGC]

61. Cool!

Hope they stay legal until then.

[-..__...]

16. Well, now... there's another 3d printer project I'd like to take a stab at...

:smoke:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x463272

[slackmaster]

19. My opinion - If you can't hit your target with a flintlock musket in the rain, you have no business

...shooting anything at all.

[oneshooter]

20. Would a 44"barrel, 50cal flint Longrifle be acceptable? n/t

[slackmaster]

33. Only if you forged, drilled, and rifled the barrel yourself from scratch

:D

[oneshooter]

34. I wish! Not a kit, bought the parts seperate and carved the stock from a maple blank. n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

21. The same thing can be done with a household rubber band.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5XzQ1BS7gU

[Remmah2]

26. The military has gotten away from full auto for the rifleman.

Studies have shown it's a waste of ammo.

[GreenStormCloud]

27. FA is a great way to turn ammo into noise with no guarantee of hitting anything. N/T

[Abin Sur]

28. I'm reminded of a video from the '80s, "Deadly Weapons"

A dozen human-shaped targets were set up at short to medium range, and the shooter said something to the effect of, "Ok, here comes the commie horde over the hill" (it was the 80's, after all) and fired 20 rounds from his FN FAL on full auto at them. One target was hit.

He then replaced the magazine and fired 20 shots in fairly quick semi-auto fire. 19 targets were hit.

A bit melodramatic, but it does illustrate how full auto fire in a rifle (especially one in 7.62x51!) is a waste of ammo.

[PavePusher]

44. Well, if the targets had been real people....

on full auto they would have all dived for cover. Depending on your goal, nearly as effective as shooting them.

[Abin Sur]

71. Except in that scenario

you would then have 19 people, in cover, ready to fire back at *you*.

[PavePusher]

72. Well, I said "nearly"... 8>)

Machine-guns are typically suppressive weapons, forcing the opposition to keep to cover and attempt flanking maneuvers or high-causulty frontal attacks.

It will slow them down....

[Abin Sur]

79. Well, sure.

That is indeed the proper role of a squad-level machine gun. A 7.62x51 rifle, on the other hand, is extremely hard to control in full auto, which was the point of the exercise.

[Hoopla Phil]

29. I don't think you've read/heard about the Akins Accelerator debacle.

A bump fireing stock for the 10/22 that ATF said was OK. Then after production and sales took off the ATF ruled it as a machine gun with the stock acting as its own full auto sear. Yet another gun confiscation took place (that anti's deny happen/ed) to get them off the market. (In full disclosure the ATF only confiscated the springs IIRC - without any due process of course)

[Hoyt]

30. Gotta hand it to those in the gun business, they know how to turn on potential customers. Make and

market something cheap that might kill more people with less effort and they will come. Not sure this particular piece of crap works that well, but the corporate gun world will never stop trying.

And, Yes, it violates the "spirit of the law," as do those who carry in public everyday.

[-..__...]

31. Now I have to get one.

Anyone want to loan me $369.00?

[ileus]

32. I thought they were a gimmick....now I need one also.

If and when I get my AK this would be a perfect pairing to make the ultimate range plinker.

[oneshooter]

35. "as do those who carry in public everyday." Those that carry do so legally

and within the letter of the law.

It is those who carry outside of the law that are criminals.

Oneshooter
Armed and livin in Texas

[We_Have_A_Problem]

36. How do you figure?

Seriously - how do you figure those who legally carry in public daily are violating the spirit of the law?

[ileus]

37. "spirit of the law" code for rude gunner toter

packing two guns one to shoot people long range one to shoot kids in the back...baser bullies intimidating public and point their pokers all over.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

38. Oh yeah - i forgot

thanks for reminding me...

[PavePusher]

45. Pssst.... Hoyt can't tell the difference... n/t

[gravity556]

39. I was gonna pass on this thing,

but I may have to drop the money on one, if for no other reason than because it makes the pro-criminal safety folks wet themselves in terror.

And considering the 2 or 3 percent of criminal long gun uses are probably mostly AK types, the chances of your local friendly criminal's union searching out and buying a fairly obscure gun accessory and the putting it on properly and using it correctly (not one handed from a moving car) are pretty low. Of course, once the media breathlessly freaks the fuck out, that may change. Not because they *actually* work like advertised, but because they'll be *percieved* to work like a death ray, allowing your local homies to spray thousands of rounds per second. Nevermind the fact that even "high capacity" magazines only hold (generally, I know there are exceptions) 30 or 40 rounds.

In 6 months the ATF will change their minds and confiscate all sold units (without compensation), citing an increase in the decrease of violent crime or something similarly nebulous. The law abiding folks will turn theirs in, accompanied by a shitload of well earned (by the ATF) invective, the few crooks who bought or stole one will not turn theirs in. And the anti-rights/pro-criminal safety folks will clamor for yet more restrictions to be placed on lawful gun owners, knowing full well that it will have no effect on actual fucking criminals.

So pat yourselves on the back, anti-rights folks. The hullaballoo you raise about this item will bring it to the attention of the very folks you purport to see disarmed, ensuring their interest. Even better, the media's adherence to "if it bleeds, it leads" scare based "journalism" will exaggerate what this is, completely ignoring the fact that it can be done with no accessory at all, and with a bit of practice, done accurately.

And how is the spirit of keeping and *bearing* arms violated by those who bear arms in defense of themselves? Why not turn in your own guns-lead by example?

[Atypical Liberal]

40. 49 States issuing permits every day violating that spirit.

And, Yes, it violates the "spirit of the law," as do those who carry in public everyday.

Well, you've got 49 states violating that spirit by issuing CCW permits every day.

I think that's called complying with the law.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[-..__...]

42. Got something to get off your chest?

C'mon... let it all out.

Tell us how you really feel.

[PavePusher]

46. Me, I like swords....

and kitchen knives.

Stealth killers, those. No-one ever expects to meet a filet knife in the dark.... hehehehehehe

[-..__...]

49. Swords are dangerous!

They'll cut your fucking throat wide open!!!...

(NSFW)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_RpbaUU7NI

:rofl:

[Hoyt]

55. Did you know that in most states you can't carry a sword in public, but guns are just fine.

[gejohnston]

76. really?

Which states?

[rrneck]

77. I guess because they poke out too much. nt

[oneshooter]

47. Why are you answering your own post? Mind slipping again? n/t

[Hoyt]

48. Nope, just wanted my post to show up after about 7 of you posted a bunch of BS.

[GreenStormCloud]

54. Do you really think they hold prayer meetings?

The folks in the gun business pray on your bad habits, behaviors, and perversions.


I don't think that my bad habits, behaviors, and perversion are a solid base from which to address a diety.

[Hoyt]

57. Thanks Greenstorm -- another finger pointy reader, gun toting, grammar critic.

[oneshooter]

59. Somebody call Hoyt a WAAMMMBULANCE, he sounds like

a small child.

[GreenStormCloud]

68. Get a sense of humor. That was a funny typo you made.

You take yourself way too seriously.

[PavePusher]

73. Indignant moral self-righteousness transcends mere humor and hubris, young man. n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

52. How does carrying every day violate the spirit of the law...

...when the law specifically was created so that I could carry every day?

[AtheistCrusader]

66. You should get off that nag, and ride a real horse for a change.

This thread is about a rifle, not Open Carry or Concealed Carry of pistols. Neither of which is a 'violation of the spirit of the law', as they are EXPLICITLY legal in the various states, per state law.

[-..__...]

43. Just had a flash back.

Anyone remember the old Hellfire and GAT trigger systems?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPSU5f7468I&feature=related

Those created a bit of a stir at the time, but beyond that, nothing much ever became of the product.

Haven't seen or read a thing about them in years.

[Hoyt]

50. Failed because it was unwieldy, lacked sex appeal and you couldn't blaze away with gun in each hand.

[-..__...]

51. Thanks for the first hand user review.

What's your opinion on filing down sears and disconnectors?

Think that might be the best route to take if I'm looking for full-auto ejaculatory satisfaction?

Or... should I just lay down the cash for one of them Slide Fire thingamajigs?

Thanks in advance

[ileus]

56. You're just another impolite, rude, toater gunner...baser something or another.

[Hoopla Phil]

60. Not Hellfire or GAT but Akins Accelerator.

Approved by ATF and then banned by the ATF. See my previous post.

[RSillsbee]

53. FA just doesn't impress me

and it really hasn't since I got done w/ the U.S. Weapons segment of BCT and I have no interest in dropping a couple thou (I'd need to buy an AR)just to piss Hoyt off. If you want one though, have at it. Personally I'd be OK w/ people being able to just buy an M16.

ETA Be curious to see how that concept would work w/ something w/ some actual recoil. I'd like to see how easy it is to reaquire the target

[oneshooter]

58. I don't know about that. I have a semi BAR and 1919a4 and

can go thru a LOT of ammo, real fast.

[Francis Marion]

62. Good way to kill your barrel

Rapid rate of fire will wear out the barrel faster than a liesurely pace.

Clever, simple, effective technology- but as such morally neutral- hence no soul searching is called for.

As an exercise in fun and conspicuous consumption, it's a successful design.

Way way way down below propellant, primers, bullets on procurement priority- short of winning Lotto, it'll never happen, and in that case, let's make it a proper M16.

[Iktomiwicasa]

67. A semi-cool novelty...

...but a waste of money IMO. I'd rather face a dumbass gangbanger with an M-16 than an accurate bolt action rifle in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.

[RSillsbee]

69. You're overlooking

the fact that these days a lot of those gang bangers are vets and know exactly how to use an M16

[Iktomiwicasa]

74. I hadn't considered that.

[Uncle Omar]

75. It is NOT full auto

It is NOT full auto. Bump fire has been around for decades,,,

[oneshooter]

78. Is that why you want to"Ban allGuns"?