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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:22 AM
Original message
Clarifying my position & also the UK law.......
I've posted this before, but as I've rejoined the Gungeon and there are new people around, I thought it might be useful for me to stick it here again to be discussed.....

1. Let me say that I am not "anti gun". I subscribe wholeheartedly to the philosophy that a gun is an inanimate object - guns don't kill people, Americ....sorry, people kill people. Of course people find it easier to kill people if a gun is handy, but that's neither here nor there - it's not the gun's fault.

2. Pro-RKBA people on this board keep repeating the following mantra, or similar: "Gun crime is on the increase on the UK. They've banned guns entirely. Therefore their gun ban hasn't worked." This is either ignorance, dishonesty or bafflingly bad logic. The ban on guns was brought in solely to prevent perfectly law-abiding citizens from having access to guns. I appreciate that this might sound odd, but after 2 significant massacres by gun-owners with legally held weapons, the government (with massive public and media backing) decided that the risks of just one gun owner going berserk with a gun outweighed the rights of the UK public to participate in shooting as a sport or the collection of working firearms as a hobby. The law was in no way intended to address the use of firearms by criminals, who would, in any case, be obtaining illegal weapons illegally on the black market. It was only aimed at preventing tragedies like Hungerford and Dunblane, which between them claimed 33 lives, many of them children.

3. A key tenet of 2, IMHO is that people can be a) unpredictable b) emotional and c) lazy. No matter how well you know someone you just can't be 100% sure that they won't do something crazy one day. Add into this b), our emotions. Many people will, occasionally, fly into a virtually uncontrollable rage about one thing or another. Fists fly and vases are thrown along with anything else that comes to hand. With large numbers of guns available, sooner or later a gun is going to come into the hand of someone who is having a really, really bad day, hence workplace shootings, domestic shootings and so forth. Yes, the violence MAY still happen if a gun isn't present, but guns make for a uniquely effective way of intimidating, injuring and killing people. Which brings me to c). Of course people can make fertiliser bombs, or improvise gastank flamethrowers or whatever. The thing is, though, that mercifully only a tiny minority could ever be bothered to do so. A revolver provides a quick, accurate, effortless, portable means of killing 6 people. If someone can reach for one in a moment of madness then they may regret that moment for the rest of their lives. Ask them to spend an hour constructing an alternative and equally effective method of wreaking death and I reckon they won't be bothered...it's not fact, but come on, intuitively it sounds right, doesn't it? In a moment of anger you reach for a weapon, you don't go out and play Scrapyard Wars until you've built an RPG.

4. You'll notice that I'm not really proposing any solutions, which makes me about as much use as a chocolate teapot. Well tough. I make no apologies. What I've aimed to do is clarify the UK gun law position so that it's not misused in pro-RKBA arguments any more. I've also clarified my own position - personally, I actually really like guns and would love to be able to shoot pistols at a club in the UK. However, I am FAR happier to sacrifice this privilege in the knowledge that my country has actively legislated against a culture of casual gun use, and that my screwy neighbour isn't legally entitled to buy a Glock just because he doesn't happen to have any convictions. Guns, clearly, are not the problem. The unpredictability of people is not, inherently, a problem. The problems arise when you have a society of unpredictable people with access to guns. People go mad in the UK, and when they do they may attack people with knives or swords, or they may punch the boss when they're fired. They do not, however, shoot people because they don't have guns.

Some quotes and stats to back me up a bit (although you won't like the source):

"Although we have always had some of the tightest gun laws in the world, it is worth noting that pistol shooting was the fastest-growing sport in the country at the time of Dunblane and that there was evidence of a particular growth in gun clubs offering ‘practical shooting’ or ‘combat shooting’ activities. We could legitimately point to the spectre of the American style gun culture in which over 30,000 people are killed by gunfire every year and say to the public that we must make sure we do not go down the American road.

The reform of our domestic gun laws is significant not only because it has meant that around 200,000 handguns were handed in and destroyed but because it sends a clear message about what kind of civil society we want to live in. A statement has been made, a position taken, that guns, particularly handguns, are dangerous and unnecessary and we will all be safer if there are fewer of them.

This statement seems to most people self-evidently true, but the war of statistics rages around this simple proposition. Shooters in America will draw on figures which purport to prove that you are safer if you have a gun than if you don’t...

The following (UK) facts should help to put the record straight.

1. The overall rise in crimes of violence in 2000 was 16% and the rise in robbery 26% so it is true that we seem to be becoming a more violent society generally...

2. Guns were used relatively rarely in violent crime ie in only 4.7% of robberies in 1999 and 8% of homicides, so the problem is to a very large extent one of non-firearms crime.

3. Handgun homicide figures are very low and since 1980 have fluctuated from 7 in 1988, through to 35 in 1993 and a previous high of 39 in1997. So 42 gun murders in 1999 does not represent a statistically significant increase."

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GRIP.htm



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texasdem99 Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. Hi Pert

I am a newbie here, pro gun. I have to say that yours is one of the most civil, articulate, balanced explanations of pro-control that I have ever read.


Thanks
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thanks...
As previously mentioned, I do enjoy a good debate and just get sick and tired of people (on both "sides") just flinging abuse at each other in here, not to mention misusing information and demonstrating startling bad logic.

We'll never get anywhere with the discussion of guns and the RKBA if we can't stay reasonably polite and also argue coherently IMHO. Of course, it's a very emotive subject and is bound to be heated from time to time, but ad hominem attacks that reject a comment simply because it comes from the opposing side of the debate don't get us anywhere.

In case you were wondering, my undergraduate degree is in philosophy so I have a history of being argumentative and pedantic when it comes to logic!

Welcome to the madhouse!

:hi:

P.
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Oggy Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. Nice post
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 07:05 AM by Oggy
This new thread:-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x46359

just about shows all that is wrong with people and guns. If someone who is mentally ill can get a gun without it being flagged up, what defence is there against someone who just uses one in anger.

From Mind ( Mind is the leading mental health charity in England and Wales ):-

"Around 300 people out of 1000 will experience mental health problems every year in Britain
230 of these will visit a GP
102 of these will be diagnosed as having a mental health problem
24 of these will be referred to a specialist psychiatric service
6 will become in-patients in psychiatric hospitals

Source: Based on figures fromGoldberg, D and Huxley Common Mental Disorders . Routledge 1982"

http://www.mind.org.uk/index.htm

(On edit can't get the full link to work, so search for "statistics" from the main page)

And anyone can go at any time. I know my wife nas just come out of PND, and I am glad she didn't have access to a gun!! But the point is it was a temporary thing, which I hope with the information from Mind backs up your stance, which is pretty close to my own.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
4. Thanks, Pert
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 09:50 AM by slackmaster
I've never been one to cite the mythical UK bloodbath, though I often get accused or assumed by broad-brush RKBA bashers of supporting every right-wing prevarication on the subject. Gun-related crime has always been low there compared to the USA.
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. I should have edited my original post...
to point out that I don't think that ALL pro-RKBA people misuse the example of the UK, or indeed that they ALL talk rubbish ALL the time.

It's only most of them, most of the time....

:evilgrin:

I joke of course. There are a lot of good discussions and valuable contributions on here from both sides, and a lot of rubbish from both sides. I don't assume that someone will make a bad argument, simply because I disagree with their point of view.

P.
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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. Quick question
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 12:39 PM by Romulus
If the firearms laws in the UK were designed to prevent criminal misuse of firearms in the form of a "firearms massacre"

and

criminals still have access to illegal firearms,

then

hasn't the risk of another massacre remained the same? :shrug:

What about the TX CCW law, passed in response to the Luby's massacre as an attempt to prevent another massacre by allowing people the chance to do something besides await their turn to be executed? Since there haven't been any more Luby's-type mass shootings since the law, couldn't that policy be deemed successful in its goals to deter another mass shooting?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I just keep wondering
so I'll just have to keep asking. Why do you ignore what people say?

If the firearms laws in the UK were designed to prevent criminal misuse of firearms in the form of a "firearms massacre"

and

criminals still have access to illegal firearms,

then

hasn't the risk of another massacre remained the same?



Where did you get that first premise? Is it what Pert_UK said?

No.

Here is what he did say:

The ban on guns was brought in solely to prevent perfectly law-abiding citizens from having access to guns. I appreciate that this might sound odd, but after 2 significant massacres by gun-owners with legally held weapons, the government (with massive public and media backing) decided that the risks of just one gun owner going berserk with a gun outweighed the rights of the UK public to participate in shooting as a sport or the collection of working firearms as a hobby.

What *you* have done is engage in a clever pointless little dance in which you progressed from "criminal misuse of guns" (neglecting to include the "by gun-owners with legally held weapons") to "criminals still have access to legal firearms" (when the purpose of the law in question was to prevent non-criminals from having access to firearms) and thence to "the risk of another massacre" being the same.

The massacres that were committed were committed by people in legal possession of firearms. How many times does that have to be said before you acknowledge it and include it in your little equations?

If THOSE people no longer have ready access to firearms, how could the risk of THOSE people committing massacres with firearms POSSIBLY be "the same"? And since THOSE people are the people who DID commit massacres, why are you hypothesizing massacres committed by criminals will illegally held firearms?

And since no massacres have ever been committed by people in ILLEGAL possession of firearms, what other basis might you have for saying that the risk of such massacres being committed is "the same"?

And what do you ever imagine you are accomplishing by pretending that people said things they did not say, and things happened that never happened, and claiming to draw conclusions from things never said and things that never happened?

.
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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. sorry
repeatedly rude posters are being ignored, so don't draw any other conclusions as to why I no longer reply directly to some posters' posts.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. well hey

As long as somebody's going to make up things and pretend other people said them, why not make up reasons for not responding to other people's posts?

It's a slippery slope, it is indeed, when first one practises to present inaccurate and distorted characterizations of other people and what they say.

.
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. OK then, here we go......
At the risk of you ignoring me, Iverglas is 99% right on this one.

I'll go along with your first comment, but IF AND ONLY IF by "criminal misuse of firearms" you mean "legally held firearms being misused to the extent that a crime is committed". (If you're talking about "career criminals" using firearms in the course of their crimes then you have misinterpreted me).

However, that's about as far as your comment makes sense. (I'm not being insulting here, you have totally and utterly misunderstood my point).

To clarify:

Prior to the gun ban there were 2 types of people with guns in the UK - those holding them legally with permits, and criminals holding guns as weapons with the intention of using them illegally.

Some of the people who legally held firearms misused them, causing a significant number of deaths.

I fail to see how "the risk of another massacre remains the same" when all legally held guns have been removed from circulation. We have, by definition, prevented legal gun owners from misusing their weapons, and therefore the number of potential massacres can only have reduced.

Criminals (in the UK) tend to use firearms as "tools of the job" - I'm not saying nobody ever gets hurt of course, but that's how it is. Criminals don't tend to go out and randomly kill a whole bunch of people for "fun" or because they've just lost their job or their wife, because that would tend to lead to them being caught. The UK gun ban, as indicated, was designed to stop "normal" people from having ready and easy access to firearms if they happened to flip out for whatever reason, and in that respect it has been 100% successful.

I am unfamiliar with the case that you cite, but if it was a case of a legally held firearm being used in a massacre then once again I am staggered that the response is "If only more people had got guns then one of them could have killed the guy who started shooting" (which would have cost at least one life and possibly several more before the guy was shot), rather than "If civilians didn't have access to guns then the massacre would never have happened in the first place".

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that the possibility of being killed by a bystander acts as a deterrant to people who are sufficiently deranged to start a massacre?


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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. oh, no - you're not on the "list"
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 05:17 PM by Romulus
I'll go along with your first comment, but IF AND ONLY IF by "criminal misuse of firearms" you mean "legally held firearms being misused to the extent that a crime is committed".

That's what I meant - I could have been clearer.

Criminals (in the UK) tend to use firearms as "tools of the job" - I'm not saying nobody ever gets hurt of course, but that's how it is. Criminals don't tend to go out and randomly kill a whole bunch of people for "fun" or because they've just lost their job or their wife, because that would tend to lead to them being caught. The UK gun ban, as indicated, was designed to stop "normal" people from having ready and easy access to firearms if they happened to flip out for whatever reason, and in that respect it has been 100% successful.

I get your point. Here in the US the "massacres" are committed by both lawfull and unlawful firearms owners. I see your point about reducing the odds of massacre by lawful owners, but that still leaves the odds the same of an "unlawful owner" massacre. That's what I was getting at.

I am unfamiliar with the case that you cite, but if it was a case of a legally held firearm being used in a massacre then once again I am staggered that the response is "If only more people had got guns then one of them could have killed the guy who started shooting" (which would have cost at least one life and possibly several more before the guy was shot), rather than "If civilians didn't have access to guns then the massacre would never have happened in the first place".

My answer here is related to the above answer: you may reduce by x% the chance that a fiream may be misued by a lawful owner by banning all legal firearms ownership, but that would leave 0% chance of anyone being able to do anything about the y% chance of an illegal owner attempting to commit a massacre (like Buford Furrow).

I don't think the life of a mass murderer is that sacred during the attempted mass murder, so we'll just have to disagree on the "cost" of that person's life to society.

A properly trained CCW holder would know when not to shoot and reduce the odds of bystander injury. I say properly because in my dream world all CCW holders would be trained to the same standards as the police. Texas CCW holders, though, are required to have 40 hours of training that puts them at the same level as a private security guard, which should be enough to address the bystander injury concern. Many states don't have the same standards. Would you be as concerned if armed private security guards were more prevalent to deter/intervene in case of "massacres," or are you just not comfortable with the whole "average joe, not on the clock" thing? Just wondering. Anyway, my brother told me about his police academy training, and I consider what he went through as the "gold standard" of CCW licensing training. (BTW: as an aside, his take on this whole thing is that "gun laws only affect the law abiding. Criminals do what they want and get what they want.")

The "never had access" question: you have to assume that he would not have been able to get a firearm off the black market for the "never had access" thing to work. I don't think we can make that assumption since so many people get firearms illegally all over the world, without the US being involved at all. That still leaves untouched the y% chance of massacre by an unlawful owner.

In answer to your question, the Luby's massacre was apparently committed by a legal firearms owner who, though with documented psych issues, was never committed to a mental institution. (Info here).

(A brief description of the 1991 event resulting in 22 dead can be found here).

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that the possibility of being killed by a bystander acts as a deterrant to people who are sufficiently deranged to start a massacre?

Short answer -yes. There is some percentage of deterrant effect that can be speculated about at length.

Long answer - no: The whole CCW thing is to give people the opportunity to have a chance to do something besides cower under a table waiting their turn to be killed by a gun, machete, sword, whatever.

Thanks a lot for being one of the good guys around here.
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