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Atypical Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 10:25 AM
Original message
The Theory of Duh.
I don't get the 9/11 connection, but other than that I think it's a great cartoon.

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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. If passengers had been armed there might have been
a different outcome. That's the only thing I can come up with.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Kinda hard getting gun out of a suitcase....
one round through the side of the plane at 34000 feet could be a problem. Even the Air Marshal's adjusted weapons & ammo several times.
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We_Have_A_Problem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. No it wouldnt
Really. Explosive decompression only happens in the movies. In real life, a bullet-sized hole in the plane would make things a little noisy near the hole - that's about it.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. You would have a problem eventually, via lower air pressure making it harder to breathe.
But it would take awhile for enough air to be sucked out the hole to make a difference, long enough you could probably cover it.

The much bigger risk (and why the Air Marshals use specialized low-penetration ammo) wouldn't be puncturing the plane, but the fact that you might have more people behind the target. An airplane is pretty crowded.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Pilots are pretty good at boogeying to 9,000ft when the pressure alarms go off.
Might have made things interesting for the hijackers in the hallway too.

"Welcome to the vomit comet"
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Not really.
You'd need several square feet of hole to exceed the excess capacity of the air-handling systems.
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Kennah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. Not from a bullet hole
I daresay if there were a bullet sized hole in the aircraft, a flight attendant would take the airline magazine and slap it over the hole.

Outflow valves are way bigger than a bullet hole, and there's several of them.
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. You are not going to get sucked out the window and this emergency can be handled however,
There are stress risks to older aircraft due to need for rapid descent and airframe stress is not good. Bird hits (non engine) can bring down aircraft. Shooting holes in the fuselage has not been well researched hence the wild stories in the movies. If someone has to carry firearms on a plane I prefer an air marshal not someone due to their own inadequacy who feels they need to carry firearms at all times. It looks to me like firearms on aircraft are extremely rare these days why arm the public on a plane if that is what is meant by this rather stupid cartoon. Create a new unnecessary problem!
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. Unless you make several square feet of hole(s), you don't have to decend "rapid(ly)".
A fairly lesiurely 2-3K ft/min descent will work just fine.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Hence, most proposals are for arming the pilots, or allowing them to be armed.
I think that's fairly reasonable, all things considered.
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appal_jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. I used to fly with a knife all the time...
I've carried a Gerber EZ-Out folding knife in a sheath on my belt for the last 15+ years. Back pre-9/11, it sometimes garnered a raised eyebrow from security, but I never was stopped from boarding. I hate removing it to fly now.

Not saying that I would be some hero going up against terrorists with my pocket knife during a hijacking or anything (sure would like to think I'd try, but who knows?), but I agree that the decade-old rules barring me from flying with my knife do not make anyone safer. I'm a peaceable American citizen, and the dress-rehearsal-for-martial-law known as flying coach these days bugs me.

-app
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. As long as you can break off the chair armrest, which is metal and a good 2-3lbs
You have at least one, sometimes two, war clubs per passenger.
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appal_jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. Hmm, never tried that... (n/t)
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. if passengers had been armed, so would the hijackers have been
duh

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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Ummmm.... the hijackers WERE armed.
Not sure what your point is.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. yes, with boxcutters ... posts here are implying that "if passengers were armed"
with guns, they could have prevented the hijacking. if OTHER passengers had been allowed to have guns, so would have the hijackers.

get it yet?
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Yes and no. It depends on how the hijackers got their weapons on board.
If taking a gun through security, they are very noticable on the scanners and detectors. Depending on the rules, you'd probably have to show some form of permit/licence, or go through an on-the-spot check to ensure eligibility to carry. I doubt it would ever be a complete free-for-all on legally carried weapons.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-11 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Be at a disadvantage, or on equal footing, eh?
Tell everyone, if those are the choices, which would YOU chose?
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. The hijackers who were in the U.S. on non-immigrant visas, you mean?
Newsflash: it's a violation of U.S. Code, title 18, Section 922(g) for a non-U.S. citizen present in the United States illegally or on a non-immigrant visa to possess a firearm except under extremely limited circumstances (outlined in subsection (y) of that same section).

In addition, certain states place additional restrictions on non-U.S. citizens present on immigrant visas to possess firearms. For example, up until a few years ago, Washington state required legally resident aliens to get an "Alien Firearms License," while New York state's Sullivan Law prohibits all non-U.S. citizens (up to and including green card holders) from possessing "deadly weapons" of any kind.

So no, it doesn't actually follow that the hijackers would have been allowed to have guns as well, provided airport security were to check the citizenship/immigration status of any person seeking to carry a firearm into the cabin (and were a bit more stringent than merely looking at state-issued driver's licenses or state IDs, which most of the 9/11 hijackers managed to fraudulently obtain, but if we're talking concealed carry here, we're also talking CCW permits).

But even if they had, they would have faced markedly higher risks. When your victims are unarmed, and you have a weapon, you have an advantage, regardless of the precise nature of that weapon. When both the prospective perpetrators and the prospective victims are armed, things become a lot less certain for the perp.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Pilots were routinely armed in the past.
Edited on Mon Sep-26-11 04:27 PM by one-eyed fat man
When it was still the United States Postal Department and the Postmaster General was a Cabinet level position, the agency was armed to the teeth! There were pistols hidden at every post office window. Every railway mail clerk was armed. Mail carriers were armed. States recognized this in laws like this Kentucky statute.

527.020 Carrying concealed deadly weapon.

(1) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed weapon when he or she carries concealed a firearm or other deadly weapon on or about his or her person.

(2) Peace officers and certified court security officers, when necessary for their protection in the discharge of their official duties; United States mail carriers when actually engaged in their duties; and agents and messengers of express companies, when necessary for their protection in the discharge of their official duties, may carry concealed weapons on or about their person.


At one time, the pilot of any aircraft used to transport mail was REQUIRED to be armed. FAA regulations left the decision as to arming of flight crews to the certificate holder until the '94 when it was quietly rescinded. Some of us remember when pilots were routinely armed and expected to be the "good guys" able to defend against the "bad guys."

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/2001_3341305/hero-in-the-cockpit-pistol-served-pilot-well-in-54.html

July 6, 1954, when a strapping teen-ager armed with a pistol commandeered an American Airlines DC-6 at the Cleveland Airport, only to be shot and fatally wounded by the captain before the airplane left the ground. The shooting ended the life of Raymond Kuchenmeister, 15. It made a reluctant hero of the late Capt. William "Bill" Bonnell of Fort Worth...

Bill Bonnell joined American Airlines in 1936 and that airline, like others, transported U.S. mail.

"Back in those days, the pilot or co-pilot had to hand-carry the mail from the plane to the terminal," recalled George Patten, 85, a retired American pilot and friend of Bonnell's. "Postal regulations required that you be armed. We all had to have guns, and American had us buy little .380s."

...Finally, flight engineer Bob Young told Kuchenmeister they would take off but that it was necessary to throw a switch behind Kuchenmeister before the plane could taxi. As Kuchenmeister turned to look for the switch, Bonnell reached into his flight bag with his left hand, removed the pistol, swung around to his right and shot Kuchenmeister. The wounded hijacker then attempted to shoot Bonnell, but his pistol misfired and Bonnell shot him again.

"I shot him in the hip," Bonnell later recalled. "He sagged a bit. I let him have it again, a little higher.

"I had a maniac on my plane. We had women and children. What the hell could a guy do?"


Back in the day, those of us who were traveling and legally armed, reported such information to the airplane's captain. If you were transporting guns, you boarded first, and at the captain's discretion, surrendered them to the flight engineer. Depending on the circumstances and your credentials, he was free to let you retain your firearm.

http://search.newspaperarchive.com/API/Search/Dataapi.aspx?search=IMAGEID:18258905&returns=PDF


The only airline hijacker ever shot on an U.S. airliner IN FLIGHT, was on September 15, 1970 on board a TWA, Boeing 707 jet. The flight left Chicago for San Francisco, but gunman Don Irwin, 27, seized the plane just after an L.A. stopover. Irwin threatened flight attendants in the aft galley with his gun demanding the plane head to North Korea.

This particular plane was in no way equipped or even able to make such a journey. This hijacker was not quite as clever as he thought.

The pilot J.K. Gilman was informed of the hijacking and was aware that Robert Denisco, a Brinks guard was a passenger in First Class. Capt. Gilman quickly used the telephone to ask a First Class fight attendant to tell Denisco what was going on and to, “tell him I said to go back and shoot that Bastard!”

"Robert DeNisco remembers it as the day he foiled a hijacking, saved a plane full of people and lived to tell President Nixon all about it."


Perhaps if the pilots had still routinely been armed, like they had been for over 70 years, they would have been able to deal with the hijackers more effectively. Perhaps if policemen, military and couriers could still travel armed, without fanfare, like we did forty years ago the 9-11 hijackers might have met the same fate as Kuchenmeister or Irwin.

The Post Office Department was armed through most of its history. When the Post Office was abolished and became the Postal Service the guns that were routinely kept were slowly collected up in the mid-Seventies. Postal workers didn't start going 'postal' until decades AFTER the Postal Service did away with guns for carriers and clerks.

So those who wanted kinder, gentler air crew and 'civilized' mail employees had them all quietly disarmed. They got what they wanted. It's a lot easier to gun innocents down in cold blood when you are guaranteed they will be unable to shoot back. It's a boon to robbers disinclined to leave witnesses as well as to the demented looking to solve their interpersonal squabbles in spectacular infamy.

The aircrew of the hijacked airplanes followed the advice often seen in here to those confronted by violent criminals....JUST GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT.

That was the official FAA training counter-hijacking training too, JUST GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT.



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LeftinOH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. The 9/11 hijackers weren't armed, either; they used office supplies.
I don't get it.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. They used box cutters as weapons. They were armed.
And airline policy at the time was to cooperate with hijackers.
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
4. Who has been disarmed other than Republicans seem determined to stiff publuc safety
Edited on Mon Sep-26-11 11:02 AM by gordianot
Fewer Police
Defund FAA
Limit first responders and just let em die unless they pay.


I own firearms last I checked they are still in my possesion no one has asked for them.
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Atypical Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Not for lack of wanting to, though.
Who has been disarmed other than Republicans seem determined to stiff publuc safety
Fewer Police
Defund FAA
Limit first responders and just let em die unless they pay.


I own firearms last I checked they are still in my possesion no one has asked for them.


It's not for lack of wanting to, though. If you spend any time around here you will see there are plenty of people who advocate for disarming Americans. The AWB is still part of the Democratic Party Platform.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-11 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
14. If only the 9-11 passengers had box cutters, too. nt
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
26. if I had a hammer ...
I'd replace the caption with what it was obviously meant to say:

We Founders call this The Theory of 'DUMB'.

I don't actually think your founders were, myself.

Any info on the source of the little gem in question? Enquiring minds.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. haha, love that new google image search
It finds the masterpiece in question, oh, here ...

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/majority-of-us-states-join-sovereignty-movement-assert-10th-amendment-rights-is-your-state-on-th/question-267206/

(that one really needs no comment)

and here ... http://drclarkjensen.com/2011/02/guns-and-government/

(talks aboaut "the libs" and quotes Ann Coulter -- hell, she's still breathing?)

and here ... http://bluftooni.blogspot.com/2008_08_01_archive.html

(news about a Republican endorsed candidate for a township supervisor position ... wow; and wow, some really neat shit about your President ...)

and here's a good one:

http://takeastandagainstliberals.blogspot.com/2011_07_01_archive.html

(I think that kind of speaks for itself too, eh?)

... and some usual suspects ... and ... oh, yeah, here it is at ... Democratic Underground!

Is this one of those "which one doesn't fit" puzzles?

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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. how did you phrase the search?
I get no such thing.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. the new image search
You drag the image to the google search box. I work on two monitors so it's easy. I guess otherwise you would minimize two windows and drag from one to the other.

43 results, of which the above are a sampling.
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