Activists want bullets to carry bar codes

[-..__...]

Teh stupid is strong in these ones....

:eyes:

Carrington Payne and Funches are still "tweaking" what they would like included in a law to that effect. At the moment, they envision requirements that every bullet sold in the state be encoded and that buyers have a gun permit, be at least 18, and have a driver's license

:rofl:

Complete article

Edited by moderator request

[Ben Gay]

1. "activists"?? Is that the newest euphemism for batshit crazy turdmerchants?

:rofl:

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

25. Umm... Yes :) n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

2. For those unfamiliar, Chester, PA is a crime and corruption ridden shithole.

I have relatives that live there, and have plenty of anecdotal evidence from them to support the subject line
Once again, some bright spark from an urban shithole thinks that "the way to fight drunk driving is to restrict the sober"

[TheWraith]

3. Yep, that's right up there on the idiocy scale.

"Barcodes on bullets" is just about as good a way as any to prove that you don't have even the FIRST clue of what you're talking about. Not even as much as you'd have from watching a few episodes of CSI.

[Euromutt]

100. Or from using the self-scanning aisle at the supermarket

It can be right royal pain in the neck trying to scan a barcode on folded or rumpled packaging. Now try to imagine trying to find a legible barcode on a bullet that's been deformed after hitting human tissue and possibly bone.

[rrneck]

4. You cant make this stuff up. nt

[Atypical Liberal]

5. It will just make reloading that much more popular.

I already reload because of the cost of ammo. I can reload .45 ACP for about $.05 a shot, as opposed to $.20 a shot buying it.

[spin]

9. It would also make casting your own lead bullets popular ...

Lyman's "Master Casting Kit"

The Best Way to Get Started in Bullet Casting.

Lyman's economical "Big Dipper" makes it possible for any reloader to start casting his own bullets. With a 10 pound capacity, the electric Big Dipper can melt enough alloy to turn out plenty of top quality bullets quickly. Bringing a full load to casting temperature takes only about 30 minutes.

The kit’s low price also includes Lyman's popular improved 4500 Bullet Sizer/Lubricator. Simply add the right top punch and sizing die and the 4500 will smoothly size down your bullet to the correct diameter while it evenly applies the provided Super Moly lubricant. In addition to the Big Dipper and the 4500 Sizer/Lubricator, the kit features a long handled casting dipper, a handy ingot mould and the widely acclaimed “Bible of bullet casting”; Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. All this for less than the price of most casting furnaces. 115V & 230V.


http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/master-casting-kit.php

[Atypical Liberal]

11. Oh that was a given.

I cast my own. I wouldn't bother reloading without also casting my own bullets. :)

[azureblue]

24. you're not thinking right

You have to go buy the stuff to load, plus the loader. Then you have to study to know how to properly reload, mostly so you don't make bullets that explode, jam or mis fire. I can't see a criminal, thug, banger, etc., even having enough sense to be able to read the directions, much less have the patience to reload. especially if they are reloading for an automatic rifle.

I can just see some know it all thug putting in too much gun powder thinking he's going to make the most powerful bullet on the block, then blowing his hand apart when the firing pin drops. Or his gun jams in the middle of a gang fight. Or being really stupid and smoking a blunt or crack around an open container of gunpowder...

[PavePusher]

26. What criminal industry has a a good working knowledge....

of chemistry, smuggling and money laundering?

Hmmmm.....

[friendly_iconoclast]

31. Would that be the one making a drug that improves attention while performing a repetitive task...

...like, say, reloading ammunition?
Looks like somebody isn't a "Breaking Bad" fan...

[-..__...]

39. Or someone isn't watching "Sons of Anarchy".

This could lead to something.

If Gustavo were to supply Blue Ice to the Indians that reloads/manufactures the ammo for The SoA, they could be cranking out rounds like it was the Lake City Arsenal.

We should run this idea by the producers of both shows and see what they think of it.

:smoke:

[X_Digger]

28. LOL, an eight year old can reload..

I know, I did. Takes about $40 worth of equipment, $100 if you get a nice digital scale (gee, I don't know any drug dealers who have one of those.. *snort*.)

And what is this 'automatic rifle' of which you speak?

[Hoyt]

87. I still want to know why someone who does not intend to use a gun illegally would take up reloading

to avoid bar codes or something similar. Almost sounds like they know the day may come where the shoot someone that wasn't an assailant after all.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

88. Reloading saves lots of money and produces higher quality ammunition.

There is already ample advantage to reload. However, putting bar codes on every bullet would astronomically raise the price of commercial ammunition. It would certainly mean that most regular shooters would have to go to reloading to continue enjoying their hobby with the same frequency.

[Hoyt]

89. I understand that, but we are talking about bar codes on a bullet. And the gun culture is saying

\
they'll start reloading to avoid the bar codes. Sounds a little like they are concerned that might misread a situation and not want to be identified. It would not astronomically raise the price of bullets, just like micro-stamping. Besides, most of you could use cutting back on your ammo requirements. For self-defense, one does not have to fire hundreds of rounds every chance they get.

[gejohnston]

91. No

simply pointing out the flaws. Personally, I doubt the bar code would survive the trip down the barrel let alone staying intact once it hits the target. See my earlier post.

[TheWraith]

93. So, then I take it you'll give the FBI permission to wiretap your phone, and track your car?

After all, by your "logic" any assertion of privacy (or basic knowledge of something that's technologically unfeasible and stupid) is a sign of murderous criminal intent. If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to be afraid of, citizen! :eyes:

[Hoyt]

94. Ah, you are concerned about using those guns improperly? Yep, they can wiretap my phone too.

Don't think they will though.

[TheWraith]

97. I'm concerned that you appear to be supporting a police state.

Filled with constant, paranoid surveillance, tracking and looking over your shoulder in the belief that if we don't set fire to the bill of rights at every opportunity, one of your evil, evil fellow citizens will "get" you.

The principle behind this proposal is no different from the principle behind warrantless wiretapping: treat everyone as a criminal. And it's grossly out of line with the entire premise of civil liberties.

[X_Digger]

95. Reloading is both cheap and precise.

Reduce, reuse, recycle.

I was hand tuning loads for a particular rifle to be more consistent. We were dirt poor and each fall's deer and turkey kept us in meat til April, maybe May if we could afford some cheap ground chuck to mix with it.

But hey, if a person can't afford new ammunition, fuck em, eh?

[Euromutt]

102. To avoid inflated prices on factory-produced ammunition

Putting serial numbers, bar codes, etc. on the case and bullet of each round of ammunition would send the price of commercially made ammunition through the roof, at which point, investing in a reloading press and accoutrements is going to pay off at far smaller volumes than it now does.

[spin]

29. Reloading ammo does not require you to be a rocket scientist ...

It's a fairly simple and straight forward process. You can buy a simple inexpensive reloading kit from Amazon.com that will produce extremely accurate ammo. The 9mm kit pictured costs $32.50 + shipping. I used a similar kit many years ago when I started reloading .38 ammo and reloaded about 6000 rounds before I decided to buy a more expensive set up.

Lee Precision 9mm Lee Loader



You should follow the instructions carefully and concentrate on the job while you reload. Reloading manuals tell you how much powder to use and you are wise to stick to the limits in those books.

Criminals and thugs are often stereotyped as lacking intelligence. While it is true that a percentage lack education even those often are street smart and have more than enough brains to master reloading ammo.

[Remmah2]

35. Garage Sale!

I've picked up several at garage sales for $5 and$ 10 depending upon the condition. (Antique reloading collector.)

[Euromutt]

101. They won't do it themselves; they'll just buy them off some unscrupulous individual...

...just like criminals in Chicago, DC and NYC typically don't run guns across state lines themselves, but buy them off some enterprising spark who does. Similarly, such an enterprising spark might be willing to invest in reloading equipment in order to provide untraceable ammunition to his customers or, more likely, he'll smuggle ammunition in from, say, China or the former Yugoslavia. Or buy it from some corrupt cop who pilfers it from law enforcement stocks, as law enforcement will undoubtedly be exempt from any ammunition registration requirement, just like it's exempt from every other fucking gun law (which fact alone usually negates the justifications proffered for it).

Note: I copied and pasted that response from the last time someone made that argument.

[ileus]

6. so are they gonna barcode every #2 shot from a 3" 12ga shell?

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[friendly_iconoclast]

12. "There is no reason they can not mark each slug as to manufacture and location - batch."

Show us how it works, and why it can't be defeated by anyone with a beginners' knowledge of reloading.

If you want restrictions on the law abiding, demonstrate why, how, and what social purpose you hope to achieve with your proposal.
When you can do that- get back to us.


Unless you're going to ban bullet pullers and reloading presses, you haven't a hope in hell of making this work.

[gejohnston]

13. apples and oranges

Not FR nor nutty thinking, it is called knowing something about the subject matter. The heat and friction from being pushed by a hot gas and traveling down a rifled barrel, before being deformed after hitting the target will likely destroy it. That is just with those with copper jackets. What about bullets that are unjacketed? Lead is very soft. Not all lead bullets are homemade reloads. .22LR comes to mind as the most common. I doubt any forensics experts will think it is a great idea.

They lost me at the age requirement, showing a complete lack of knowledge. To review current federal gun control laws:

It is a federal crime to:
an FFL to sell a handgun to anyone under 21
A private person to sell a handgun to anyone under 18
for anyone under the age of 18 (with narrow exceptions)to possess a handgun.

[msongs]

17. 2nd A says nothing about age. all kids can legally own guns ya know nt

[petronius]

18. In what possible way did you imagine that this comment added anything even

slightly useful or relevant to the discussion? :shrug:

Serious question.

[SteveM]

20. bar-ROOM! went the elephant in the cave. nt

[ileus]

14. You do know that not all shotgun shells contain slugs right?

000
00
0
2
4
6
8
7.5
10

and of course slugs and sabots.


try putting a barcode on 500 #8's



I'm assuming they were speaking of individual barcodes on the projectile not the casing....

[SteveM]

19. Oh, you mean the shells you gave my buddy, who gave them to me, who....nt

[ileus]

7. what if you don't own a car?

[spin]

10. Another useless "feel good" law ...

Next some fool will suggest that each and every bullet has a GPS locator installed.

[jeepnstein]

15. Just using some wild guesses...

and shirt tail computations I've concluded that the database for such a project would be unbelievably large. An entry for every round of ammo produced? Are they kidding? Tell me they're kidding. Who is going to pay for all this data and programming? It would be a huge chunk of money for almost no return. You'd still have to prove your case the old-fashioned way and that's hard to do some times.

[jmg257]

16. Hey - ballistic fingerprinting was a HUGE success in NY.

Well worth the money. Last I heard it lead to 1 conviction!

:sarcasm:

[SteveM]

21. The allure of the Bureau is almost sexual among social engineers. nt

[Kennah]

22. My vote is for atomic isotopes

By law, I think I'm required to include the :sarcasm:

[X_Digger]

23. LAWL! Now dubbed the "CSI factor"..

Where idiots think that anything seen on TV can be done in real life (or their logical extrapolation of something seen on TV..)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. The comments on the article are telling

The proponents of are deep in to stupid.

[Tejas]

30. Are THEY gonna sell plate lunches to pay for the beaurocracy?

:rofl:

[Remmah2]

32. This is a good idea.

We could also install public scanners on every telephone pole, street corner, and fire hydrant to capture the bar codes of bullets in flight as they zip around crime zones.

[DocMac]

33. Bar codes aside, they are helping people.

They are not all that stupid.

[spin]

34. I fail to see how waisting time pushing a bill that will do little or no good ...

and is technologically unfeasible is helping anyone.

Calling for better law enforcement or for improving existing laws such as the NICS background check will do far more good than bar coding bullets.

Pipe dreams are fun to talk about but don't accomplish anything.

[GKirk]

36. I'm assuming the poster was referring to this part of the story:

"Yvonne Carrington Payne and Carolyn Funches have cooked Thanksgiving dinners for the homeless, raised money for needy families, and set up a shelter for battered women."

So they are good people but completely misguided as to this whole bar code on bullets thing.

[DocMac]

38. Did you even read my comment?

I said: Bar codes aside, they are helping people.

Did you skip over the good they do?

[spin]

41. Yup. To be fair I missed that part. My bad. (n/t)

[DocMac]

42. No problem.

Thanks for addressing it.

[Glassunion]

44. wrong spot...

[We_Have_A_Problem]

37. Really?

And exactly who is helped?

You're right though - they're not stupid, they're insane. After all, as we all know, the definition of insanity is trying the same thing twice and expecting the different results.

[DocMac]

40. Yet another reply from a person who cannot read.

Just wow!

[We_Have_A_Problem]

43. I can read quite well thank you.

I couldn't give a shit less about the good they are doing. Once a person attacks my rights, anything they may have done outside that scope becomes unimportant.

Hate to pull the Godwin card, but Hitler did a lot of good too, and yet, that's not QUITE what people remember about the guy.

The good does not make the bad acceptable or forgivable.

[DocMac]

46. Your rights??

Where does the article mention that they want to deny you anything?

They seek a way to catch people who kill others, as misguided as their concept is.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

48. Yes, MY rights

Such as the right to be secure in my property. Its none of the government's business what I own. Simple as that. Further, by postulating such a fucking insane idea, they demonstrate that they believe firearms are something the people need permission to own, not a right.

Would you accept having an individual registration code put upon every book you own, traceable back to you? Just an example.

[DocMac]

50. I read the article.

Maybe you should try that out.

And yes, if people were beating others to death with books, barcode all mine.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

56. I did read it.

Perhaps you should read a few things as well, starting with our Constitution.

The actions of a criminal do not justify punishing everyone. Perhaps when you learn that, you'll understand.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheWraith]

65. They're good people, but grossly unqualified on this subject.

So grossly it seems like they didn't even look up one single fact before coming up with their idea, or ask a single person who knew anything about it. "Being good people" isn't a qualification to design engineering requirements. You might as well get a shoemaker to build a nuclear reactor because he's good at making shoes.

[Glassunion]

45. 10 billion rounds of ammo sold in the US every year.

I can safely say that the administration of a database recording every serialized round, and linking it to a purchaser would be beyond the scope of what our governments(both state and federal) are capable of handling.

For example: The state of New York cannot handle the record keeping of just firearms regardless of how many 10's of millions of dollars they throw at it. How the hell would they keep track of the sale of every single ammunition purchase for those exact same firearms that they cannot keep track of?

Not to mention this creates a firearms registry and this is an automatic no go for me.

On top of all of that it would effect the cost of ammunition too much.

Manufacturer costs: The machines that serialize the ammunition cost $500k to start, this does not include annual maintenance. The company that created the machine and holds the patent also charges a licensing fee for each and every round sold. They would also have to pay to have all of the serials, recorded and tracked to the retailer.

Retailer: Would have to purchase equipment and software to track the ammunition from receipt to final sale and retain that information.

This information raises about 20 questions in my mind in regards to my other rights, that I am 100% positive those who are thinking about this law are not even considering.

I'm shaking my magic 8 ball and asking if those who are drafting this law have my privacy rights and or my 4th Amendment rights, or PA's law against gun registries in mind... Outlook not so good. This bill will go nowhere.

[Hoyt]

47. I agree with these ladies. The way some of the gunners here have posted about them is despicable.

We need more folks to take up this cause, because there are too many gunners trying to expand guns into every public place. That's to society's long-term detriment, but those addicted to guns don't care as long as they can strap one or two to their bodies on the way to Chuck E Cheeze.

[friendly_iconoclast]

54. Well-intentioned ignorance is still ignorance, and need not be indulged.

The two women in the article strike me as sincere (As for you?-Don't ask the question unless you're ready to hear the answer), but
what they seek is impractical, ineffective, expensive, and intrusive. So, they're going to hear from meanyheads like us pointing out the truth.
Sorry to harsh your mellow about this, Sunshine...

[Hoyt]

59. Not expensive, intrusive, etc. Well, unless one is afraid they might shoot someone and need to hide.

It's not expensive, it's not impractical, nor is it perfect. But if the relatively cheap proposal makes someone think before blasting away -- it's all good. Even if a few gunners get ticked.

Besides, this is just one proposal in a number that might stem the tide of more guns in public. I commend the ladies, even if members of the "gun culture" pucker.

[friendly_iconoclast]

63. You going to ban reloading and bullet casting along with it? If not, it won't work.

While you're busy trying to do that, you might want to catch Ken Burns' latest film. It starts on PBS October 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJdKK6L8Z2o

You might want to ponder a few things after watching it...

[Hoyt]

66. Are you going to reload so that they can't track you if you shoot an unarmed teenager?

You guys think everything has to work 100%. If it only helps a little, that's an improvement over what we have now with more and more people packing heat.

Yep, some could get a revolver. But, for most here, a revolver just wouldn't bring the same level of pleasure.

Why are you guys afraid of the possibility that a gun or two could be traced to someone who owned it at one time?

I do agree, that gunners aren't as law abiding as they claim, hence prohibiting guns would be tough. But we have to start somewhere. If we wait another 10 years, you guys will have pumped another 100 million into the country.

[oneshooter]

68. "But we have to start somewhere" Have you turned over your firearms

to the local police. They will destroy them for you. After YOU have to start somewhere!

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

By the way, I will competing in a BPCR match this weekend. Shooting at silhouette targets out to 500 yards away. But no red dot sights!!

[Hoyt]

74. Hope you get in a few moments this weekend not related to guns?

[oneshooter]

79. Going to be fun. Both my Loving Wife and our youngest son will be competing.

Shooting at silhouette targets at 200-500 yards. Have a cold cut lunch in the shade of 150 year old oak trees. Good friends and good times.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[friendly_iconoclast]

86. I thought this law was supposed to curb *illegal* use of guns?

I'm willing to indulge ignorance only so far before I call bullshit. Their ignorance is excusable. Yours? Not so much.
The very sorts of people that killed that woman's daughter are the ones that would add ammunition to their product lines.
Heroin has been illegal since 1914, yet it is available on the streets of Chester (and a lot of other places today).
How long would it take to get unmarked ammunition off the streets?

More than one person has pointed out how easily this could be evaded, and repeating that this is necessary and workable
won't make it so, no matter how much handwaving you choose to indulge in.

[gejohnston]

90. you miss the point

we are saying it will not help at all. To paraphrase my question to right wing libertarians, which are different than left wing ones (see link below) "Can you name one place where strict regulation or prohibition have worked to lower violent crime?" Can you show Europe's lower murder rates have anything to do with gun laws?

http://politicalcompass.org/

[rrneck]

96. I like the way you think.

I've got a '74 AMC Gremlin I'll sell you. $175,000 and it's yours.

[rl6214]

61. Chuck e Cheese, where all the little kids hang out?

Do you have a facination with Chuck e Cheese?

That combined with your facination with things strapped to peoples bodies is more than just a little disturbing.

[Hoyt]

67. Nope, just shows how absurd it is for gunners to pack everywhere they go, including where kids are.

[oneshooter]

69. So you don't believe that children are worth protecting. n/t

[Hoyt]

72. You are NOT the protector, judge, jury, etc. A gun doesn't make it so.

[oneshooter]

81. I AM the protector of my family, and if we are at Chucky Cheeses

that does NOT abrogate my responsibility.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[PavePusher]

84. He is not the "judge, jury, etc", but he is most certainly the protector.

If not, who is? You have repeatedly not volunteered to provide security for anyone....

[oneshooter]

70. There will be 15-20 children at the match this weekend, they will

be competing in a 22cal benchrest match out to 100yards. No red dot sights!!!

[Hoyt]

73. Good. I can think of a lot of things better for kids to be doing, though.

I suppose it depends on their age. Hope they have access to truthful information about guns, and its detriment to society.

I'm assuming this is target shooting, as opposed to one of those courses to teach them how to clear a room with a red dot.

[oneshooter]

80. such as what. Shooting develops hand/eye coordination

as well as muscle control. You get rid of your nasty evil guns yet, or are you still a hypocrite?


Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[ileus]

92. there is I took mine hunting this weekend...target shooting was last weekend.

[gravity556]

82. You keep mentioning Chuck E Cheeze.

I would just like to say that I don't have kids, don't particularly care to be anywhere near the little walking biowarfare labs, and wouldn't set foot in that particular establishment if I were being dragged by two burly individuals. Just wondering why you seem to sport such an affinity for a kiddie pizza place?

[PavePusher]

85. It is rather creepy of him, ain't it? Hmmmm..... n/t

[DocMac]

49. You have to read the entire article

to understand that these women are NOT stupid.

And also this part of the article:

"If this technology is real, it should be put to the legislature and passed immediately," Rendell said.

The technology does exist.

[Glassunion]

51. The technology has existed for quite some time.

It has failed to pass any house in any state it has been brought up in.

The stupid is the cost and lack of effectiveness it would have on crime.

[DocMac]

52. The cost and lack of effectiveness is why it never passes. nt

[Glassunion]

53. Exactly...

Not to mention there is the one company that holds the patent. They would stand to make a whole lot of money in licensing fees for every bullet manufactured. It's like a tax that we would pay to a company.

[DocMac]

55. I understand.

I own guns and served in the USMC.

All i'm sayin is that the woman had her daughter killed by a stray bullet in a gang shootout.

I doubt very much if she is concerned about the cost. I wouldn't label these women as stupid as some are posting.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Glassunion]

60. Misguided may be a better term.

[DocMac]

76. Misunderstood may be a better term. nt

[Straw Man]

98. Cost.

All i'm sayin is that the woman had her daughter killed by a stray bullet in a gang shootout.

This techonology would have enabled police to trace the bullet that killed her daughter back to wherever the gangbanger who pulled the trigger stole it from. At tremendous expense.

Ballistic "fingerprinting" of cartridge cases has been spectacular and expensive failure in both states -- New York and Maryland -- where it has been tried. This would be even more expensive and failure-prone, since you're talking about each and every round, not just one test-fired casing, and you're talking about a bullet, which is subject to a far greater degree of deformation and degradation than a casing.

This woman may in fact be very sincere, but I believe that many who advocate for these ineffectual technologies are in fact driven by a desire to make firearms more difficult and expensive to manufacture and market. Several of those are in evidence on this very thread.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

57. Oh ya think?

It also doesn't pass due to the fact that it is unconstitutional on its face.

[Iktomiwicasa]

64. One of the most idiotic...

...ideas I've heard in quite some time.

[DissedByBush]

71. Activists want us to carry bar codes

Bullets are only a step.

[krispos42]

75. Only works if the bullets are registered.

Which is of course highly likely. Doubtless the criminals are polishing their photo IDs to present them to the checker at Cabela's or Wal-Mart.

Plus, you have the added bonus of being unable to verify that the barcode on the bullet is the same as the barcode on the box. So you don't know what you're buying to begin with.

It's a crock.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

78. Someone needs a group hug

:grouphug:

[Icypwn]

83. Bullets having bar codes.

That would be very hard to do. I don't see how they would be able to do that.

[dizbukhapeter]

99. I can cast my own bullets.

How are they going to stop guys doing the it the old fashioned way by casting their own bullets and loading their own ammo.