If this is correct, the Feds *were* selling guns to cartel members

[friendly_iconoclast]

I say "If", because there is as yet no non-Murdochian source for this. But if it is true --and the documents at the link are not forgeries-- this is turning into a North American version of Iran-Contra.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/another-f-f-bombshell-and-familiar-name-rises-to-surface

Another F&F ‘bombshell’ and a familiar name rises to surface
Dave Workman, Seattle Gun Rights Examiner

While Congressional and public attention is focused on Monday’s revelation that taxpayer money was used to purchase several, AK-style firearms that were subsequently allowed to “walk” into the hands of suspected gun runners, there are two key details to this story that should not be overlooked.

First, according to Congressional sources, the case reported Monday about taxpayer money being used by an ATF agent working undercover to directly purchase guns is apparently not a Fast and Furious case but a separate case. More about that in a moment....

...But the Dodson purchase, under Voth’s orders, was done under a different case number than the Fast and Furious investigation. Fast and Furious’ case number is 785115-10-0004, while the case involving Dodson’s gun buy is numbered 785115-10-0020. They can be viewed at this Fox News link:

http://www.foxnews.com/interactive/politics/2011/09/26/documents-detail-atf-involvement-in-fast-and-furious/

A minor detail? No, a major one, because it shows that Fast and Furious was evidently not the only questionable operation mounted in Phoenix under Voth’s watchful eye. We now have two identifiably separate cases that apparently put guns into the wrong hands deliberately. This no longer appears to be a "botched" operation so much as it looks like these guns were deliberately allowed to make it into criminal hands, critics assert....

[TheWraith]

1. Thanks for qualifying it based on the source.

It's a shame that this has been allowed to turn into a left/right thing, with the right wing papers paying attention and the left wing ones ignoring it.

[burf]

2. Its not news if its not reported. n/t

[SteveM]

51. One of the corrupting influences of the gun-control movement...

is that intellectual honesty has been lost in the patched-in notion that "gun-control" is somehow a liberal/progressive issue. Once this notion is cheaply die-cast into political debate, reportage suffers, and one has to find information where one can.

[one-eyed fat man]

3. Here's more

Link to a letter used to authorize the purchase over Voth's signature.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/66315131/Voth-Straw-Purchase-Authorization

Link to internal memo concerning info posted on CleanupATF

http://www.scribd.com/doc/65868759/Melson-Email

Discussion of the sale on CleanupATF

http://cleanupatf.org/forums/index.php?/topic/153-atf-operation-gunrunnerfast-furiousphoenix-division/

At least one agent has made his contempt for Bill Newell, the then-Special Agent in Charge of ATF's Phoenix office and ATF's Fast & Furious damage control mouthpiece, abundantly clear. One sure has to wonder considering their "chummy" relationship how this ties in to suddenly former National Security Advisor Kevin O'Reilly's transfer to Iraq?

"Bill Newell you are a lying coward. This letter was written not to clarify anything you lied about but to attempt to avoid an indictment. You repeated your lame justifications and made excuses, the same thing you have done since the day you set foot in ATF. You lied to Congress and you are trying to cover your lies by calling the Whistleblowers, Gil and Canino liars. You are a 100% chickenshit.

You are a whiny little bitch to actually compose a letter to Congress after you lied to their faces and blame your lies the the "pressure" you feel and that this is "unlike anything you have ever experienced". You are pathetic to say that this experience has taken a toll on your health and family.

What about the toll on Brian Terry's family? What about the toll's on the hundreds of dead Mexican citizens and their families? All you ever have or ever will care about is you. You are one self-centered m_ _ _ _ _ rf _ _ _ _ r.

Here is where I am going to get off and probably be deleted. My friend is Jay Dobyns. Newell you are quite possibly the biggest hypocritical pussy ever in ATF to make the statements that you made in your letter knowing what you did to him and his family. You helped your boys Gillett and Higman go above and beyond to try and frame him as an arsonsist and attempted murder. You turned your back just like you did in Fast and Furious. I don't have the vocabulary to state what a double-standard POS you are. You think Dobyns felt pressure living under the allegation that he tried to murder his family for the last three years? How about the toll on his family have to hear that their husband and father intended to burn their house down on them and murder them? Then you lied under oath in that case too.

Don't bother to appologize. Whatever it is that happens to you, it is not evil enough to balance what you have done. Rot in hell."

[Hoopla Phil]

23. Wow! n'/t

[Atypical Liberal]

4. I believe this is a direct analog to iran-contra

It seems to me that there is serious concern of the drug cartels actually taking over the Mexican government outright, instead of just through intimidation.

There have been rumors from supposed CIA insiders that this entire operation is an attempt to funnel arms to drug cartels rival to the Zetas to prevent the Zetas from achieving a coup d'etat.

This is sounding more and more to be likely the case to me. My guess is they are going through legitimate gun shops rather than selling them arms directly in an attempt to avoid diplomatic hassles of being caught pumping arms directly into Mexico. Guess that didn't work out.

[Hoopla Phil]

24. Now THAT'S an interesting theory that I've not herd anywhere.

I keep hearing how this was an attempt to inflate numbers of US guns in cartel hands to bolster a cry for more gun control. But I must say, your theory sound much more plausible.

[spin]

28. At this point it is largely speculation however the Washington Times published an opinion piece ...

on this subject which you can read for yourself and decide if it is at all possible.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/11/was-cia-behind-operation-fast-and-furious/

As Atypical Liberal mentioned right now this information is composed of mainly rumors and hopefully not true.

I consider the CIA involvement as possible as they have a long history of supporting bad guys in order to achieve certain results which they consider favorable to interests in our nation. Remember the CIA involvement with Manuel Noriega.

Manuel Noriega

Manuel Antonio Noriega Moreno<2> (Spanish pronunciation: ; born February 11, 1934) is a Panamanian politician and soldier. He was military dictator of Panama from 1983 to 1989.<3>

The 1989 invasion of Panama by the United States removed him from power; he was captured, detained as a prisoner of war, and flown to the United States. Noriega was tried on eight counts of drug trafficking, racketeering, and money laundering in April 1992. Noriega's U.S. prison sentence ended in September 2007;<4> pending the outcome of extradition requests by both Panama and France, for convictions in absentia for murder in 1995 and money laundering in 1999. France was granted its extradition request in April 2010. He arrived in Paris on April 27, 2010,<5> and after a re-trial as a condition of the extradition, he was found guilty and sentenced to seven years in jail in July 2010.<6> On 23 September, he was paroled from 1 October<7>.

***snip***

Involvement with CIA

Although the relationship did not become contractual until 1967, Noriega worked with the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) from the late 1950s until the 1980s.<9> In 1988 the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration indicted him on federal drug charges.<10><11>

The 1988 Senate Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics and International Operations concluded that "The saga of Panama's General Manuel Antonio Noriega represents one of the most serious foreign policy failures for the United States. Throughout the 1970s and the 1980s, Noriega was able to manipulate U.S. policy toward his country, while skillfully accumulating near-absolute power in Panama. It is clear that each U.S. government agency which had a relationship with Noriega turned a blind eye to his corruption and drug dealing, even as he was emerging as a key player on behalf of the Medellín Cartel (a member of which was notorious Colombian drug lord Pablo Escobar)." Noriega was allowed to establish "the hemisphere's first 'narcokleptocracy'".<12> One of the large financial institutions that he was able to use to launder money was the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) which was shut down at the end of the Cold War by the FBI. Noriega shared his cell with ex-BCCI executives in the facility that is known as "Club Med"....emphasis added
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega#Involvement_with_CIA

Of course there is also some evidence that the CIA at one time supported Saddam Hussein.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Iraq

And there are plenty of rumors that indicate that the CIA has been involved in covert activities in Central and South America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_the_Americas

Often when there is smoke there is also fire. If indeed the CIA is playing games in Mexico and supporting one drug cartel over another, this might explain why some departments of the Obama administration are reluctant to cooperate in the investigation into operation Fast and Furious.

[Oneka]

45. Two birds

one stone?

[gravity556]

56. Before F&F blew up in their faces,

the anti-rights crowd WERE most definitely trying to use this to push more gun control. The BATFE needs to be disbanded entirely and rebuild from the ground up. The legitimate gun dealers who were making the straw sales were doing so at the behest of the BATFuckers. And by behest, I mean coerced. The last thing a law abiding gun owner wants to do is supply a group of shitbag fucking criminals with arms, but the ATF doesn't mind... Apparently because they believe that the American public are too stupid to pour piss out of a boot if the directions were on the heel.

[spin]

5. What disturbs me is that those who oppose firearm ownership ...

or hope to restrict and ban certain types of firearms seem to be totally ignoring this scandal.

You would think that they would be raising hell about the ATF allowing over 2000 guns to walk into criminal hands. It's obvious that these firearms WILL be used for criminal purposes and some of this activity will be in the United States.

At the minimum wanting to impose draconian gun laws on honest citizens while not being disturbed when an agency of our government is supplying criminals with lethal firearms is hypocritical.

[burf]

7. It is much easier to portray gun owners

as criminals in waiting than to hold our leaders accountable for providing guns to actual criminals.

[spin]

8. I wonder if this scandal would have happened under a Republican administration ...

if there would have been far more outcry from liberals.

[DanTex]

9. That's because this is just a botched sting operation.

So far, there doesn't seem to be anything more than a badly planned and/or badly executed attempt to track guns into Mexico. I'd feel pretty much the same if we found out that, say, the EPA accidentally released some pollutants into the environment because a test went wrong. Yes, it's bad, people should get fired, but it wouldn't mean the EPA is bad, or that the mission of the EPA is bad, or that pollution and the environment aren't big problems.

The Repubs are trying to make it political because they want to embarrass Obama, I get it, but the reason it doesn't go anywhere is that, so far, there's nothing political here. I guess maybe you could argue that Obama is ultimately responsible for incompetence in any federal agency, after all, he does run the government. Kind of like Bush got deserved criticism for putting cronies in charge of FEMA which the mishandled the Katrina response.

So, OK, if there is incompetence throughout the ATF, let's fix that, and make it more effective. Fire the people that screwed up, and replace them with people who know what they are doing. After all, there are tons of guns going from US FFLs to Mexican drug gangs, which means operations like this are necessary, and they need to be executed properly.

[beevul]

13. I followed you right up until the "botched sting" part...

"So far, there doesn't seem to be anything more than a badly planned and/or badly executed attempt to track guns into Mexico."

Hmm...except the Mexican government was never informed, nor was the ATF attache to mexico.

Do you not understand that in order to actually track guns INTO Mexico, both those things are prerequisite?

"I'd feel pretty much the same if we found out that, say, the EPA accidentally released some pollutants into the environment because a test went wrong."

This was no accident, first of all.

Second, guns were bought BY atf using TAXPAYER dollars, and walked BY atf into mexico. This isn't simple failure to follow straw buyers anymore. No sir.

"The Repubs are trying to make it political because they want to embarrass Obama, I get it, but the reason it doesn't go anywhere is that, so far, there's nothing political here."

Why the continual stonewalling then? Me, I'd call that political regardless of who is stonewalling who.


"Fire the people that screwed up, and replace them with people who know what they are doing."

Yeah thats what needs to be done. Those in the CCO (chief counsels office) need to be replaced, and an apparatus needs to be put in place to keep their replacements on the strait and narrow. A review board of say...whistleblowers.

"After all, there are tons of guns going from US FFLs to Mexican drug gangs, which means operations like this are necessary, and they need to be executed properly."

Uh...no. NO operations like this should EVER take place again. They had the straw buyers dead to rights on several occasions and were told to let them go.

That can't happen anymore.

Of course, that still doesn't cover the guns bought with taxpayer dollars, BY ATF itself, and walked into Mexico.

And thats exactly what "botched sting" doesn't fit what so ever.

[spin]

16. I consider that a reasonable answer ...

From what I see, the ATF agents on the street are doing their best to stop gun smuggling and trafficking. Someone further up the chain dreamed up this ill-conceived scheme.

We have many firearm laws in our nation and it could be argued that they need improved or even that stronger laws need to be passed. However it is very important that we first enforce the existing laws. It does little good to have laws on the books that might reduce violent firearm crime and not make an honest effort to use them and then complain that we need new stronger laws.

What bothers me is that the Obama administration appears to be less than cooperative in addressing and solving this problem. Mistakes happen during any and every administration and all too often a coverup occurs that causes much more damage than merely admitting that a screw up happened and then taking action to insure that it doesn't happen again.

If more of the firearms that "walked" turn up used in crimes inside the United States, this scandal could grow into a political nightmare for Obama. In my opinion, it would be far better to get in front of the problem and take action now even if it means that some very important people might have to find another job.

Of course, the fact that some of these weapons have already been used in Mexico to commit crime and even to kill is unforgivable.

Mexico still waiting for answers on Fast and Furious gun program
Top Mexican officials say the U.S. kept them in the dark. One official was stunned to learn that the cartel hit men who killed her brother had assault rifles from Fast and Furious in their arsenal.
September 19, 2011|By Ken Ellingwood, Richard A. Serrano and Tracy Wilkinson, Los Angeles Times

Reporting from Mexico City and Washington — Last fall's slaying of Mario Gonzalez, the brother of a Mexican state prosecutor, shocked people on both sides of the border. Sensational news reports revealed that cartel hit men had tortured Gonzalez, and forced him to make a videotaped "confession" that his high-powered sister was on the take.

But American authorities concealed one disturbing fact about the case from their Mexican counterparts: U.S. federal agents had allowed AK-47 assault rifles later found in the killers' arsenal to be smuggled across the border under the notorious Fast and Furious gun-trafficking program.

Marisela Morales, Mexico's attorney general, told The Times that… (Jorge Dan Lopez / Reuters)

U.S. officials also kept mum as other weapons linked to Fast and Furious turned up at dozens of additional Mexican crime scenes, with an unconfirmed toll of at least 150 people killed or wounded.

***snip***

Fast and Furious weapons have also been linked to other high-profile shootings. On May 24, a helicopter ferrying Mexican federal police during an operation in the western state of Michoacan was forced to land after bullets from a powerful Barrett .50-caliber rifle pierced its fuselage and armor-reinforced windshield. Three officers were wounded.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/19/world/la-fg-mexico-fast-furious-20110920

[DanTex]

17. I agree there.

Here's what I find odd about the whole thing. Yes, some of the ATF guns were used in crimes, and that is a terrible thing. But the ATF guns are just a tiny fraction of the overall guns that get smuggled to Mexican gangs.

From the pro-gun side, I see a huge amount of outrage about the ATF guns, but continuous attempts to downplay the overall significance of US gun flow to Mexico (and also other countries like Canada). What about all the people who were killed by guns that came from US FFLs to Mexico without the assistance of the ATF? It almost seems like the ATF guns are the only exception to the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" slogan. Why aren't gunners arguing that if it hadn't been the ATF, then the guns would have come from somewhere else, because criminals and gangs will always be able to get as many guns as they want?

[PavePusher]

18. "tiny fraction"?

Umm, going by the numbers I've seen, close to a tenth of the whole.

[one-eyed fat man]

25. More underhanded dealings

Explain how this was exclusively an ATF operation? Some agent in Tuscon didn't suddenly say lets run guns across the border and see where they go.

Somewhere there was an inter-agency conference where representatives of the ATF, the Justice Department, Homeland Security and the State Department set up who's turf was whose and who cleared various parts of the operation. There are signatures someplace of assistant or under secretary of several Cabinet level agencies somewhere! Newell was big buddies with National Security Adviser Kevin O'Reilly. He kept him briefed. Why? Tooting his own horn or a back-channel communication to the White House?

Just like some light colonel didn't walk into the weapons storage facility at Miesau, Germany thirty years ago and have pallets of TOW missiles loaded into airplanes headed to Iran, just on his say so, flashing that NSA ID and White House credentials added horsepower to get things moving a four star general (or the head of ATF) didn't have the authority to order.

Suddenly former National Security Adviser Kevin O'Reilly's is transfered to Iraq just when a Congressional committee wants to ask him questions? He doesn't have a Marine dress uniform to look all resplendent while lying to Congress. Is someone hoping he'll have some personal experience with an IED before he has to testify?

[Atypical Liberal]

27. It is almost a certainty at this point that that is not true.

That's because this is just a botched sting operation. So far, there doesn't seem to be anything more than a badly planned and/or badly executed attempt to track guns into Mexico.

It seems that it is almost a certainty at this point that this is not true.

We know that no attempt was made to track the firearms once they crossed the border into Mexico. We know further that the requisite agencies in Mexico were not informed of this operation. We also know, from congressional testimony, that these operations (and there are 3 that we know about) involved the FBI, the CIA, the DEA, the IRS, and Immigrations and Customs.

We have testimony from "a CIA operative" that these operations were under the direction of the CIA, and are a covert effort to arm rival drug cartels to prevent the Los Zetas cartel from achieving a coup d'etat over the Mexican government. In addition, according to the operative, as part of this operation they allowed a 747 full of cocaine to fly into US airspace unmolested.

Even if we knew none of this, the fact that the government cannot effectively track drug shipments would indicate to anyone with even half a brain that attempts to trace firearms would be futile.

It is almost a certainty that this "botched sting operation" is a smokescreen. Almost certainly this was a clandestine attempt to funnel arms to rival drug cartels in Mexico.

You might have wondered, as I did at first, why the US government is bothering to go through civilian FFLs to get firearms to the rival cartels, instead of providing them directly. The answer is that such arms would show up in Mexico and be traced back to the US government, which would have huge repercussions. First of all, Mexico would rightfully be extremely pissed off that another country is providing arms for illegal and violent activities within their country. Second of all it would show direct support for drug cartels by the United States - support for the very people providing a product that is illegal in the United States and that millions of people are in prison for simply using.

So they are simply allowing known illegal sales to go through civilian channels to arm the rival cartels.

And hey, if it happens to paint civilian firearm sales in a bad light to use as an excuse for more gun control, even better, right?

So, OK, if there is incompetence throughout the ATF, let's fix that, and make it more effective. Fire the people that screwed up, and replace them with people who know what they are doing. After all, there are tons of guns going from US FFLs to Mexican drug gangs, which means operations like this are necessary, and they need to be executed properly.

Except you lose all credibility about "tons of guns going from US FFLs to Mexican drug gangs" when it appears that this is happening as part of an organized, top-level US arms supplying operation. You can't use this as a stick to beat up on US civilian firearm rights.

[DanTex]

6. What would the motive be?

In Iran-Contra, there was first the arms-for-hostages and then the political motive to fund the right-wing Contra rebels in Nicaragua.

But the Mexican drug cartels seem pretty apolitical as far as I can tell. If it's not a botched operation, would the motive here be just plain corruption and personal enrichment?

[burf]

10. Maybe just picking sides

in the Zetas-Sinaloa fight perhaps?

[DanTex]

11. Maybe.

To me what seems odd is the pro-gunners getting all excited about this. I get that Republicans want it to explode in Obama's face. But if it is true that the US Government is arming one side in the Mexican drug wars on purpose, it's really got nothing to do with gun control at all. At that point it does become more like the Iran-Contra scandal, which also had nothing to do with gun control, but rather with illegal military aid.

[gejohnston]

14. but these guns being found at Mexican crime scenes

has turned it in to part of the gun control debate with the bogus claim that most of the guns used by the cartels are purchased from US gun shops as claimed by many on yours side of the debate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=edit&forum=118&topic_id=464334&mesg_id=464429
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110209-mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090708_mexico_economics_and_arms_trade
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,229992.story
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,7497626,full.story
http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=390473&CategoryId=14091
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/04/21/112616/drug-gangs-help-themselves-to.html
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/04/21/112594/cable-guatemalan-military-selling.html
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/04/21/112595/cable-lax-honduran-controls-on.html





edit to fix links

[burf]

15. Nothing to do with gun control?

Really, come on Dan, you really don't believe that. Remember the news stories on the proliferation of assault weapons coming from the US into Mexico that were the cause of so many Mexicans being killed? Wasn't it the Mexican President that criticized the US for the lax laws that allowed assault rifles into his country? Those stories sort of disappeared after the F&F, gunwalker, and other programs started becoming know.

How about the Brady Campaign being told that gun control "under the radar" was Obama's plan through executive orders and administrative rule changes. These are not happening? Like in the requirement for the FFLs to report gun sales of more than two long guns per week.

[DanTex]

20. Yes, nothing to do with gun control.

You realize that the vast majority of the guns that get trafficked into Mexico are not part of the ATF scandal. So the fact that the ATF screwed up doesn't change the fact huge numbers of guns from US FFLs are going to Mexican drug gangs. In fact, if anything the F&F scandal brings more attention to the problem. Yes, the ATF screwed up, but the whole reason they were doing this in the first place is precisely because of the huge problem of guns being trafficked to Mexico.

Unless you are hoping that this scandal will grow so big that it will account for all of the guns in Mexico traced to US sources, or at least the vast majority. Is that it? Because if not, then I don't see how it changes the gun control debate at all -- there are still guns being trafficked to Mexico (and Canada), it's still a big problem, and we still need to do something about it.

[burf]

22. How many of those guns that were purchased

in the US and later wound up in Mexico were illegally purchased by straw purchasers? How many FFLs were told by ATF to go ahead with the transaction when said FFL called to notify ATF? Turning a blind eye to the sale to and trafficking by drug gangs is IMHO a major contributor to the gang violence in Mexico. And, that the flow of weapons is in part being orchestrated by the Federal Government, should be reason for the immediate appointment of a Independent Prosecutor who is empowered to subpoena any and everyone to get to the bottom of this. Also, there should be a full audit of the stimulus funds, purported to be 10 million dollars, as to where the money was spent.

About stopping the flow of guns through Mexico and Canada, there are laws on the books already to deal with this. Enforce them.

[DanTex]

26. Here is where I see hypocrisy.

Most of the time when anyone points out the fact that guns from US FFLs are fueling gang violence in Mexico, the pro-gunners will deny this, citing Fox News or whoever to downplay the significance, and arguing that Mexican gangs actually get military grade weaponry smuggled in by other means such as Central America.

But then, when it comes to the specific guns that the ATF let go during F&F, now gunners are all outraged and people like yourself are claiming that these are a "major" contributor to the gang violence.

You can't have it both ways. If the F&F guns are a "major" contributor, then you must also concede that the overall scope of the problem of FFL guns being trafficked to Mexican gangs is huge, since the vast majority of these FFL guns being trafficked are not related to F&F at all.

[one-eyed fat man]

33. What makes it huge

What makes it huge is not the number of guns, but who is doing it.

The very agencies that are charged with preventing and prosecuting gun crime are players is the big deal.

Like pedophiles, it's not just the crime is reprehensible, it is doubly so when it is priests, teachers, coaches, or scout leaders are the predators. That generations of Arab goatherds have been doing it since who knows when to how many thousands of kids doesn't make the "few" some preacher porked not a big deal.

[burf]

34. That is why there is the need for a

special/independent prosecutor.

How many Uriel Patinos are there out there? From USA Today 8/9/2011

ATF operation focused on man who bought more than 700 guns

When Uriel Patino walked into a Glendale, Ariz., gun store last August and placed an order for 20 handguns, federal gun agents already knew the 25-year-old man as the most prolific figure in a trafficking ring that was supplying hundreds of guns to Mexico's brutal Sinoloa drug cartel, according to federal court documents and congressional investigators.

snip

"Our guidance is that we would like you to go through with Mr. Patino's request and order the additional firearms," ATF Supervisor David Voth wrote the dealer in an Aug. 25 e-mail.

More at: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2011-08-08-ATF-guns-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-Congress_n.htm

[spin]

35. I personally would love to see all gun smuggling from the United States ...

into Mexico stopped or contained as much as possible. This will require more dedicated agents then we currently have in the ATF and much stiffer sentences for those caught engaging in such activities including those who straw purchase firearms and those who transport these weapons across the border.

Every firearm that leaves the United States in the hands of smugglers has the potential to be misused to injure or kill innocent Mexican citizens. The resulting publicity hurts the image of every responsible and honest American citizen and may well result in another assault weapons ban in the future.

I also favor the efforts of law enforcement to curtail the illegal smuggling and sale of firearms in our nation.

Therefore I am for strong enforcement of existing laws for the sale of firearms and improvements to them. For example, I would like to see the NICS background check better financed and improved to more efficiently input the names of those who who have a violent criminal record or who have been legally adjudged as suffering from a disqualifying mental condition. I would also like to see this system extended to cover ALL sales of firearms in this nation including private sales. Many gun owners would disagree with me on this new requirement but I feel it could be set up to be an inexpensive process and would require no further registration of firearms than is currently required when an individual purchases a firearm from a dealer.

I personally refuse to sell any of my firearms to an individual that I do not personally know and that person has to have a valid concealed weapons permit. Obviously, I rarely sell firearms. When I do, I have made every effort to insure that my firearms end up in responsible hands. Unfortunately, I can't guarantee that the person that I sell them to will not eventually sell them privately and his standards for a buyer may not be as high as mine.

Of course, I am extremely upset as a citizen and as a gun owner to find that departments of my government are allowing and even financing the smuggling of weapons to Mexico. So should any citizen regardless of their views on civilian firearm ownership or what party they belong to. Innocent people have been shot and killed by both weapons that were allowed to "walk" by the ATF and others weapons that have been bought by straw purchasers and smuggled across our borders or sold illegally on the streets of our nation.

I think we both agree on that.

[DanTex]

40. Yes, we agree.

[gejohnston]

39. here is where I see dishonesty

or at the very least, cognitive dissonance.

Most of the time when anyone points out the fact that guns from US FFLs are fueling gang violence in Mexico, the pro-gunners will deny this, citing Fox News or whoever to downplay the significance, and arguing that Mexican gangs actually get military grade weaponry smuggled in by other means such as Central America.

A simple search in Yahoo or Google will come up with many non-Fox articles pointing out that very fact. I listed several in post fourteen. McClatchy has been doing excellent work on this issue and have even posted some of the messages from the embassy (thanks to Wikileaks)online. The "anti-gunners" ignore this, citing either Brady Campaign or a poorly written post on C&L or Media Matters. The major problem I see are progressives who take it at face value, honestly believing that nonsense and try to debate someone who is better informed on the issue. Thom Hartmann made that mistake. Being a Thom Hartmann fan, I hated seeing him get creamed by David Kopel.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wRENg-Kn6k

[Atypical Liberal]

31. Frankly, we have no idea now.

You realize that the vast majority of the guns that get trafficked into Mexico are not part of the ATF scandal.

We have no idea now what portion of these arms were intentionally allowed to be trafficked into Mexico.

Personally I suspect that what is now known or speculated is just the tip of the iceberg.

But that is neither here nor there. The bottom line is you can't expect me to go along with gun control measures on this issue when our government is actively engaged in the problem you want me to pay for with my rights.

[gravity556]

58. You also know that the vast majority of the guns in cartel hands in Mexico

did NOT come from the US. Pick a tin pot dictator in South America that needs funds to fight counter-revolutionaries-that's where most of this shit is coming from. The Mexican army has THOUSANDS of Barrett M82 rifles-which do you think is more likely; that they purchased them through a straw buyer at 6 to 8 thousand dollars each, or they bought them or stole them from the Mexican army itself? Hell, the fucking Zetas are primarily Mexican army deserters-you think they had any qualms about stealing a case or ten of whatever tickled their fancy.

The folks trying to capitalize on this to push gun control in the US are claiming 70% of the guns in MX come from the US. That is a bullshit spin number. 70% of the guns brought to the ATF to be traced came from the US, but that only accounts for about 12% of the total weapons siezed.
That doesn't stop the anti-rights agenda, though. Who needs facts when you can generate fear among the ignorant? The cartels aren't buying grenades and grenade launchers and belt fed M2 heavy machine guns or MK19 automatic grenade launchers or LAW rockets at fucking gun shows, and anyone who says they are is, to put it bluntly, either stupid or lying to push a gun control agenda. There are no ice cream trucks cruising around selling Uzis, nor can you go to Walmart and buy a fucking machine gun cash and carry.

Of course, the anti-gun propaganda machine has been in full disinformation and spin mode for quite some time now, and I hope that the reprecussions from this gunwalker/fast and furious clusterfuck costs them every bit of their false credibility.

Again, the ATF fucktards told the FFLs (who reported the suspicious purchases and were disinclined to sell the guns to obvious straw buyers) to make the sales, even though they were illegal. And then some fucking shithead tried to paint those dealers as rogue FFLs, selling guns to the cartels just to pad their pockets. Even though the truth was that they were doing so at the behest of the very organization that is supposed to STOP that kind of shit, not encourage it and be complicit in it.

That's why gun rights advocates are so pissed off-some fucking government mouthbreathers tried to capitalize on the situation to push even more gun control. Which wouldn't have mattered anyhow, because the BATFuckers would have told those dealers to carry on selling guns to people they knew were straw buyers, all with the assurance of the BATFEces brigade that they would bust the offenders.

Overall, this will be a victory for the pro-rights side because now the anti-rights a-holes will lose all credibility. It may not get coverage on the MSM, but the online gun community is vast and rather well interconnected. So thanks, antis, for unspooling the rope, tying the noose, tossing it over the tree and putting it around your neck. The next scandal will be the one that kicks the chair out from under them. Gun rights are gaining steadily all across the country, more states are working on Constitutional Carry bills (meaning AZ/AK/VT style no permit needed concealed carry) as well as pre-emption laws to prevent some one horse town mayor from trying to set up his own little fiefdom.

Even the breathless moaning about the eleventy bajillion gun murders is bullshit. FBI stats for 2010 showed less than 9000 firearm murders.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls

And those "evil scary black assault rifles" and other long guns only accounted for 358 with rifles and 373 with shotguns. Compared to 1704 knife murders and 745 murders using only hands and feet. Every argument the anti-rights side makes is padded, fluffed, massaged, spun and displayed in a house of mirrors.

Here's a breakdown of murders by weapon type by state. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl20.xls

Now, if the anti-rights folks postulation is correct that lax gun laws mean more gun crimes, and NY with it's Sullivan act, ensuring that only the rich and politically connected can defend themselves in NYC, one would think that the firearm murder rate would be waaay lower than say...AZ, what with our no background check FTF private sales, permitless concealed carry, open carry, no magazine capacity limits and no AWB, right? After all, guns cause crime, according to the Brady bunch dittoheads. Unfortunately for their credibility, that is not the case. NY had 517 firearms murders compared to Arizona, the "wild wild west", pictured by the ignorant as dirt roads and hitching posts, and the AZ rate was 232 firearms murders.

So, is it a cultural issue? Are the purportedly civilized residents of New York really just a horde of bloodthirsty maniacs, screaming for nationwide gun control because of their crime rate, or could it be that in Arizona, the common man has the right to defend himself, and that fact acting as a deterrent in and of itself?

What about Illinois? How do they stack up to the wild west of AZ? They had 364 firearms murders, 355 of which were committed with pistols. Still saying that the gang bangers weapon of choice is a long gun?



I eagerly await a rebuttal with cites from a respected source-DOJ/FBI are respected, Brady and VPC are not. They're a special interest group with a known history of fudging...oh hell, who am I kidding...outright spreading false data.

[PavePusher]

19. Dude, how dizzy are you?

With that much spin I don't see how you can type coherently...

[AzWorker]

21. hehe

Yep, the spin is painfully obvious.

[Atypical Liberal]

30. But it is being used as an excuse for gun control.

To me what seems odd is the pro-gunners getting all excited about this. I get that Republicans want it to explode in Obama's face. But if it is true that the US Government is arming one side in the Mexican drug wars on purpose, it's really got nothing to do with gun control at all. At that point it does become more like the Iran-Contra scandal, which also had nothing to do with gun control, but rather with illegal military aid.

Except that the flow of civilian arms from the US to Mexico is being used as a reason to call for increased gun control here in the United States.

If it turns out that this is part of a covert US government plan to arm drug cartels, then it needs to stop being used as a club to beat the drum for more gun control.

[DanTex]

43. But most of the civilian flow of arms to Mexico has nothing to to with this.

Look, I agree that it's really bad that the ATF let this happen. And it's even worse if they did it on purpose. And I would agree that if almost all or at least a significant fraction of the guns trafficked to Mexico are part of a covert US government plan, then, yes, that certainly does affect the "Mexican guns" argument that has been made in support of gun control.

But there is no indication at this point that the ATF guns account for more than a small fraction of the overall flow. In which case the argument about gun control doesn't change at all. Whether or not Mexican guns justify gun control is a different matter, and I know we disagree about that. But maybe we can agree that, unless a lot more guns become implicated in this, the argument doesn't change much at all, because it doesn't change the severity of the Mexican gun smuggling problem.

[Atypical Liberal]

46. Then I continue to go back to my original argument.

Which is, it does not matter if truckloads of weapons are illegally trafficked into Mexico every day. This has no bearing on people like me nor should it be used as an excuse to limit the rights of law-abiding people like me.

[gravity556]

59. You're right-Mexico should secure their southern border to stop the influx of weapons.

Because they sure as fuck aren't getting but about 12% of their guns from the US.

[one-eyed fat man]

32. Except for one teensy weensy detail.

February 26, 2009 2:28 PM Holder Revives Talk Of An Assault Weapons Ban

26 March 2009 Clinton targets assault weapons

May 5, 2010 Napolitano Talks Border Control With Mexican Counterpart

The Washington Post has been beating the drum for the renewal of the expired assault weapons ban. In a series of articles claiming that gun dealers along the border were funneling arms to the cartel, the very same dealers they named as providing the guns most often traced, were the exact same dealer the ATF was telling to make illegal sales.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

Was the Post in on the deception from the beginning, or just eager to publish anything that might further the "we gotta get a new assault weapons ban to save Mexico" agenda?

A cynical seventy year old retired career military guy might conclude somebody was given the mission to "pad the numbers" and feed leaks to the press to help "mold public opinion." There is a lot of "preparation" that needs to go on if a renewed ban is to take root. The same lies that got it passed in 1994 will no longer work so new lies are needed.

[friendly_iconoclast]

36. There you go again, digging up verifiable empirical evidence.

You really know how to harsh the mellow, don't you?
All kidding aside, this really is turning into "Iran-Contra on the Frontera", isn't it?

[DanTex]

42. Really?

Just to be clear, what you are suggesting is that the ATF (or someone in government) wanted more gun control, and they wanted to use the Mexico guns argument to justify it. Except that they didn't think that the number of guns being smuggled to Mexico was big enough for it to work, so they designed this operation whereby the ATF would allow and even encourage the smuggling of additional guns, just to "pad the numbers" and make the press releases look more dramatic.

And not just the government, but the Washington Post was in on this as well.

And this explains all the giddiness among even Democratic pro-gunners, because a plot to increase support for gun control has been foiled.

Did I get that right?

[one-eyed fat man]

49. It is easier to get forgiveness than permission

Some agent in Tuscon didn't suddenly say, "Lets run guns across the border and see where they go."

The operation affects the "turf" of at least three Cabinet level departments are involved: Justice, State, and Homeland Security.

So what exactly happened? The Justice Department, which owns the ATF, and the Attorney General have steadfastly denied authorizing any such operation. The Director of the ATF meets with Congress with his own lawyer and points the finger up HIS chain of command after being tossed under the bus along with the US Attorney in Arizona.

The Special Agent in Charge of the Operation, Bill Newell, keeps Kevin O'Reilly, an NSA staffer in the White House informed on the operation.

Like I said up thread, I no more believe this was a rogue staffer any more than I believed a Marine light colonel had the horsepower to walk into an Army weapons storage facility and order missiles sent to Iran 25 years ago. If it's one thing mid-level weenies are good at, it's CYA. Someone above their pay grade is going to sign something before they turn anything loose.

[one-eyed fat man]

54. A brief timeline for Operation Gunwalker

The idea is not new. The dots connect pretty well. Who would have believed arms for hostages and using the money to arm the Contras? The Special Agent in Charge of the Operation, Bill Newell, keeps Kevin O'Reilly, an NSA staffer in the White House informed on the operation and now, all of a sudden, when the emails surface, the White House staffer is reassigned to Baghdad? Guess since the end of the Cold War there isn't any government housing in Thule, Greenland anymore?

http://armsandthelaw.com/

February 2009: AG Holder
March 2009: Hillary Clinton visits Mexico, delivers a speech. "These criminals are outgunning law enforcement officials," Clinton said of the street warfare in towns near the border that have claimed more than 6,000 lives in the past year. And since we know that the vast majority, 90% of that [weaponry> comes from our country, we're going to try to stop it from getting there in the first place," Clinton said."

April 2009: President Obama visits Mexico. "Meeting face-to-face with Mexican President Felipe Calderon, President Obama on Thursday said the U.S. is to blame for much of Mexico’s drug violence, and he set up a major congressional gun-control battle by calling on the Senate to ratify a treaty designed to track and cut the flow of guns to other countries. Mr. Obama said he wants to renew a ban on some semiautomatic weapons but that it is not likely to pass Congress." He adds, "more than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that lay in our shared border."

September 2009: Operation Fast and Furious appears to begin at about this point.

October 2009: Field Field Division establishes "Group VII." Its plans include allowing guns to "walk" to Mexico.

March 2010: An email to Group VII supervisors informs them that the acting head of ATF and the Deputy Director of FBI are very interested in the operation and receiving weekly briefings.
Some agents are objecting, since Agent Voth sends an email telling agents that if “you don’t think this is fun,” you should find another job.

April 2010: Group VII reports the straw men purchased 359 firearms, including some .50 rifles, last month alone.

May 2010: President Calderon visits Washington, calls for renewal of the "assault weapon" ban.

December 2010: The Administration proposes to require reporting of multiple long-gun sales by dealers in border States. Dennis Henigan of Brady Campaign rejoices that it may be the end of appeasement, and calls for more: "The new ATF initiative to fight Mexican gun trafficking has crossed a line -- and the administration knows it. "

December 10, 2010: Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry is murdered, and Fast and Furious guns are found at the site.

December 22, 2010, ATF agents Bloggers pick up the story.

January 2011: Fast and Furious is suddenly shut down. ATF arrests the straw men. Agent Newell vigorously denies the agency allowed guns to "walk."

February 2011: story goes mainstream when

So in Spring 2009 the Administration was pushing its agenda with references to American guns going to Mexico -- with spokesmen including the President, the AG, and the Secretary of State. In the following months, Operation Fast and Furious took form. The gunwalking involved offices in Arizona and Texas, and perhaps Florida, and involved FBI as well as ATF. FBI even bankrolled one of the smugglers. Occam's Razor ... gunwalking was meant to serve a political agenda that (at the outset) was seen as setting the stage for some major pushes, and that required lots of Mexican crime guns to trace to US dealers. And if a few hundred people got killed, that was just the price.

[SteveM]

53. It's quite possible that WaPo, et al, are unwitting supporters...

of this operation, seeing a "fissure" into which they could insert their anti-2A agenda. Now, the problem is whether or not these "news media" will give this the attention it deserves after thoroughly soiling their pop-up gun-control tent. My guess is they won't unless alternative & RW media break open the story. Frankly, WaPo, et al, should be on this right NOW.

[spin]

12. There have been some rumors of CIA involvement in Fast and Furious ...

You can view these rumors which were published in the Washington Times at:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/11/was-cia-behind-operation-fast-and-furious/

The article is disturbing and may be totally inaccurate, however considering the past history of the CIA it may well be possible.

[Atypical Liberal]

29. To prevent anarchy in Mexico.

What would the motive be?

In Iran-Contra, there was first the arms-for-hostages and then the political motive to fund the right-wing Contra rebels in Nicaragua.

But the Mexican drug cartels seem pretty apolitical as far as I can tell. If it's not a botched operation, would the motive here be just plain corruption and personal enrichment?

As I posted in another thread earlier, there is a statement from a "CIA operative" that the purpose of these operations (and there are now 3 that we know of) were to funnel arms to rival drug cartels in Mexico, to prevent the Los Zetas cartel from achieving a coup d'etat over the legitimate government there.

Already the cartels are killing virtually all government officials that stand in their way. It seems that they are not far from taking over the government itself.

[friendly_iconoclast]

37. It's turning into "Prevent anarchy in Mexico by aiding a civil war", IMO

Not that they intended to do that, but that's what it is becoming.

[spin]

38. Perhaps we seriously need to consider the legalization of the sale of drugs in our nation ...

Our demand for such drugs is fueling the problem and our War on Drugs is, and has been, an abject failure for years.

The prohibition of alcohol was also a failure. This is what it accomplished.

Organized Crime and Prohibition

***snip***

The following are statistics detailing how much worse crime got:

Police funding: INCREASED $11.4 Million
Arrests for Prohibition Las Violations: INCREASED 102+%
Arrests for Drunkenness and Disorderly Conduct: INCREASED 41%
Arrests of Drunken Drivers: INCREASED 81%
Thefts and Burglaries: INCREASED 9%
Homicides, Assault, and Battery: INCREASED 13%
Number of Federal Convicts: INCREASED 561%
Federal Prison Population: INCREASED 366%
Total Federal Expenditures on Penal Institutions: INCREASED 1,000%


"Not only did the number of serious crimes increase, but crime became organized. Criminal groups organize around the steady source of income provided by laws against victimless crimes such as consuming alcohol or drugs, gambling and prostitution. In the process of providing goods and services those criminal organizations resort to real crimes in defense of sales territories, brand names, and labor contracts. That is true of extensive crime syndicates (the Mafia) as well as street gangs, a criminal element that first surfaced during prohibition."

***snip***

Bootleg alcohol is what fueled the work of Organized crime. Most of the men involved in the Mafia or gangs were young immigrants. The business of bootleg alcohol was highly profitable for everyone involved which often fueled the Mafia or gang wars. By the late 1920's more than 1 million gallons of bootleg liquor had been illegally brought into the United States. Most of the alcohol came in either through Canada or from ships that were located just beyond U.S. waters. See Coast Guard Pictures during the Prohibition Era. However, there was alcohol being produced legally in the United States that was also being bootlegged. Most of the alcohol being produced for use in manufacture often ended up being bootlegged. We will look more at bootleg alcohol, speakeasies and other forms of illegal alcohol as we look at life for the average American.

Al Capone:

http://www.albany.edu/~wm731882/organized_crime1_final.html

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

[burf]

41. I just don't see how it would work

There have been many posts on DU as well as other sites in favor of legalizing drug. A goodly number of them say make em legal tax the heck outta them and use the money for education and rehab programs. How much are we gonna need in taxes to support the government programs listed above, plus some sort of Health and Human Services to ensure the drugs are safe? How will the price of any drug differ under the government than what the price is now? I wonder if we are not trading the illegal drug runner in for the government drug runner. If John Q Addict is unemployed, how is gonna afford his junk, be it from a private or government source? Will he resort to crime to get money for his habit? If so, how have things really changed?

Then what happens when a new type of drugs is introduced, such as the bath salts type that are now gaining popularity in some areas? Will they be tested by a government agency? How will they stop the manufacture and distribution of these? Will the illegal drug manufacturers just quit? I doubt that happening. Look at all the meth labs across the country. If they crank the stuff out cheap enough, there will still be a demand for the product.

The solution is simple, but many don't wanna hear it. It came from an old man in Columbia many years ago. If your people didn't use the stuff, we wouldn't grow it.

[spin]

44. It is true that many new dangerous drugs have hit the street ...

and the price of these drugs could undercut the sales of legalized drugs such as marijuana. However moonshine is still available in our nation but it is not widely used.

We can continue fighting the War on Drugs and eventually we may end up with drugs cartels fighting in our streets and attacking the police as they do in Mexico.

Gunmen kill 3 police officers in Mexican border city
Published September 08, 2011

Ciudad Juarez – Gunmen killed three municipal police officers in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico's murder capital, a police spokesman said.

The officers were traveling in an unmarked car Wednesday in Juarez, located across the Rio Grande from El Paso, Texas, when they were attacked by several gunmen who cut them off on a busy street, municipal police spokesman Adrian Sanchez said.

The vehicle was hit by more than 30 rounds fired from AK-47 assault rifles and hit a power pole.

***snip***

At least 14,000 "armed criminals" are in Ciudad Juarez and Chihuahua city, the state capital, working for the drug cartels that are fighting for control of smuggling routes into the United States, Chihuahua Attorney General Carlos Manuel Salas said earlier this year.

Read more: http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2011/09/08/gunmen-kill-3-police-officers-in-mexican-border-city/#ixzz1ZBo3aM7b

As drug cartels become more powerful they find new methods of making money. I don't want to see the drug cartels gain the power in the United States that they enjoy in Mexico.

As Gangs Move In on Mexico’s Schools, Teachers Say ‘Enough’
By ELISABETH MALKIN
Published: September 25, 2011


Teachers in Acapulco marched on Sept. 14 against an extortion attempt that has led scores of schools to close.

ACAPULCO, Mexico — The message is delivered by a phone call to the office of one school, a sheaf of photocopied papers dropped off at another, a banner hung outside a third.

The demand is the same: teachers have until Oct. 1 to start handing over half of their pay. If they do not, they risk their lives.

Extortion is a booming industry in Mexico, with reported cases having almost tripled since 2004. To some analysts, it is an unintended consequence of the government’s strategy in the drug war: as the large cartels splinter, armies of street-level thugs schooled in threats and violence have brought their skills to new enterprises.

***snip***

The word here, in the tough neighborhoods that tumble down the far side of the mountains lining the once-splendid bay, is that everybody is paying protection money: doctors, taxi drivers, local stores.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/world/americas/mexican-teachers-push-back-against-gangs-extortion-attempts.html?ref=education

I agree that if Americans just stopped using drugs, the problem would be eliminated. That tactic was tried years ago and failed miserably. Remember Nancy Reagan and her "Just Say No" campaign.

[one-eyed fat man]

48. Legalized dope

Marijuana is the big money crop and commodity. Many of those dopers from the Sixties are still smoking the stuff and now stealing from their kids' stash. Some of them are functioning members of society, just like not everyone who drinks is a skid row alcoholic.

Employers should be free to piss test and fire any doper. That is the norm in the aviation industry. Even hardcore stoners don't want to fly on airplanes built, maintained, or piloted by potheads. The plus comes in that the cost to society from tolerating a few dedicated drunkards or dopers is that they production, distribution and profits are not in the hands of organized crime.

The illicit money used to corrupt law enforcment, judges, politicians, not to mention murder and mayhem as marketing tools cause far more damage than the occasional doper "running" a red light at 14 miles an hour trying to find his way home. The abuses of civil rights perpetrated in the name of the "War on Drugs" are nearly as damaging to society.

It is a classic case of the lesser of two evils. The Eighteenth Amendment was championed by the women's movement as THE way to keep working men from drinking up their paychecks, beating their wives and abusing their children. The "Noble Experiment" instead, this is what they got....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6z71l6HQwQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWeAxRmy19M&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vhv8cW5sAo&feature=related

[SteveM]

52. Wasn't Al Capone rather "apolitical?" nt

[one-eyed fat man]

55. Al Capone bought politicians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Capone#Chicago_career

He didn't care if they were Democrats or Republicans; he just expected them to stay bought. When the mayor Capone and his goons made sure was elected gave a speech threatening to run Capone out of town it did not sit well. Al pounced on the guy right there on the steps of City Hall and while in full view of a police officer kicked the guy unconscious.

Running a criminal enterprise with an estimated US $100 million per year in revenue Capone garnered media attention. His favorite responses were "I am just a businessman, giving the people what they want," and "All I do is satisfy a public demand."

[SteveM]

57. Also read where he had bought news reporters...

and had one of them shot and left in a storm drain.

[DissedByBush]

47. I hate it when Murdoch gets the scoop

I sometimes have to wait days for sane verification.

[gravity556]

50. I hope every single individual involve catches jail time.

Not the gun dealers they cooerced into allowing straw purchases, but every single BATFucker who had a shit covered finger in the pot. Fuck, you have no idea how pissed off this kind of shit makes me. It pisses most other gun owners off as well, particularly since there were rumblings about blaming it on legal gun owners. Fuck you, BATF, fuck you in the fucking face with a pissed off honey badger. May your stints in prison result in your ability to shit a coke can without straining. Assholes.