Swords in the news

[texasdem99]

Ok, it's from yesterday...



A man who stabbed to death an armed intruder at his home was jailed for eight years today.

Carl Lindsay, 25, answered a knock at his door in Salford, Greater Manchester, to find four men armed with a gun.

When the gang tried to rob him he grabbed a samurai sword and stabbed one of them, 37-year-old Stephen Swindells, four times.

More...



http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2687311

Well, all I can say is at least they charged the intruders with "robbery and firearms offences", whatever that means.

[pnb]

1. Yes, but what about the other stories...

...you know, the one's where kids play with swords and the swords stab and slice all by themselves...

[Ready4Change]

2. I cry for those poor victims of sword violence.

No, really. This cycle of destruction will never end until the manufacture, sale, and possesion of swords is outlawed world wide.

Honestly, it's getting so that thieves, murders and rapists are unable to commit their crimes without having to fear that some maniac might attempt to resist and stab them with a weapon that is only lethal at arms length.

I mean, what chance does a God loving hoodlum with a firearm that can kill from 20, 30 feet have against one of these steel armed vigilantes? Especially within that vigilantes own home? It's TOTALLY unfair.

[Ready4Change]

3. Pre-emptive Um.

That was satire. Or at least an attempt at satire.

Just making sure. ;)

[RoeBear]

5. So to reassure you...

...I got it.

[rock]

6. It was very funny

We all got it (I hope).

[Superfly]

4. And as long as scummy right-wing sword groups

like ARMA exist, this will never end.

[Narf]

68. Swords are soon to be illegal in Australia...

As well as the deadly "laser pointer". See here.

[Pert_UK]

7. I believe that swords are actually illegal in the UK now too.....

which at least partially explains the sentence....i.e. this guy killed someone with an illegal weapon.

Look.....either there is more to the story than the paper is saying, or something went wrong in court that day. You ARE allowed to defend yourself in the UK, but only with reasonable force. If this guy chased the attacker down the street and then stabbed him again, then manslaughter is a reasonable verdict IMHO. It just isn't "open season" on every criminal in the UK.

Seriously, there must be more to the story than we're being told. It's not that long ago that Tony Martin (a farmer) got less than 8 years for killing a 16 year old by firing his shotgun at him while he was running away.

[Superfly]

8. It may not be open season on criminals in the UK, but

it sure as hell is on its disarmed populace....

Link

<snip>

A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.

<snip>

[texasdem99]

9. Great article, Superfly

No rebuttal from anyone?

...Crickets chirping...Tumbleweeds blowing....

[MrBenchley]

11. Why bother?

It's a report on a press release from nearly three years ago from a gun nut group in Britain trying to pretend there was a bloodbath in Britain....

"The Metropolitan Police said its official figures showed a 20% drop in armed robberies of commercial premises between April and July this year, compared with the same period last year.
A Scotland Yard spokesman said that, since April 2001, the Flying Squad has arrested 39 people in connection with 34 armed incidents and seized 52 weapons. "

By the way, even the gun nut group admits there were fewer than 4,000 gun crimes in a nation of 60 million people in 2000. If a city like Houston or Miami could get down to 4,000 gun crimes a year it would be a miracle.

[texasdem99]

12. Not sure why you

discredit anything that happened more than two days ago as irrelevant.

As I said before, does the passage of time immediately invalidate the entire article? The ban was in 1997. This article is four years later.

This is not one of your "GITN" threads; it started with a recent article.

Also, not sure why you always attack any source you don't like as a "gun nut group"...

On second thought, why am I talking to you?

I know I'll get your canned, "go peddle your steaming pantload of crap..." line or something else equally innovative in response.

[Superfly]

14. Doesn't matter...

Gun crime in the UK has increased even more since the figures in that report were released. The only thing that gun ban effected was a de facto disarmament of the population except for the occasional Samurai sword, allowing criminals free reign of their streets.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Superfly]

17. Please refer to post #13

[MrBenchley]

21. Hahahahahahaha...

That would be the post where you "proved" there were 4,000 handgun related crimes a year by "proving" there were 6,000 handgun related crimes a year.....

So 6,000 handgun-related crimes in a nation of 60 million is "hell" but a hundred thousand or so handgun-related crimes in Florida (population 16 million) is what? Proof that CCW laws "work"?

[Superfly]

What *are* you talking about?

We are talking about the increase in crime in the UK as a result of the gun ban. We are not talking about Florida here. Please stay on topic.

[MrBenchley]

25. Yeah, fly....

I know you want to pretend Britain has a bloodbath and the US does not...too bad that's a steaming pantload.

[Superfly]

26. Once again, as a result of

the gun ban in the UK, firearms crime has increased every year since the ban was implemented, as evidenced by the links I posted.

[MrBenchley]

28. And once again

it turns out to be hooey....and still way-y-y-y-y-y-y below US levels....

[Superfly]

30. And once again

gun control in the US has nothing to do with this thread. Please stay on topic.

[MrBenchley]

31. Fly, I know you want to pretend

the UK has a bloodbath and Florida does not....

[Superfly]

32. Now you're in the "putting words in peoples' mouths"

business, eh?

[MrBenchley]

33. No, I leave that to the RKBA crowd...

[Superfly]

35. Ahhhh..and that makes complete sense...

:shrug:

[MrBenchley]

34. "Despite what the anti-RKBA crowd wishes and begs for"

[MrBenchley]

15. Hey, I wonder

why somebody thought this tired old crap was a "great article"...

"does the passage of time immediately invalidate the entire article?"
No, but common sense does.

"not sure why you always attack any source you don't like as a "gun nut group""
The simple answer is that I don't....but it remains a FACT that almost every source the RKBA crowd produces is from right wing cesspool like Newsmax or WorldNet Daily. This ONE is the BBC reporting on a press release from a gun nut group.

"On second thought, why am I talking to you? "
Seems more like AT me.

[Superfly]

13. Nah...you're wrong...

UK Crime Stats

Page 23 under key findings: (for 2001/2002)

Quote:

"-Firearms other than air weapons were reported to have been used in 9,974 recorded crimes in 2001/2002. This was a 35% increase over the previous year."

Quote:

"-Handguns were used in 5,871 recorded crimes, an increase of 46% over the previous year. Seventy percent of robberies in which a firearm was present involved a handgun."

Quote:

"-The number of firearm robberies increased by a third (34%) between 2000-01 and 2001-02. Currently, that number of firerarm robberies is the highest since 1993."

Yeah, that gun ban is working wonders.

[MrBenchley]

18. Too TOO funny, fly....

So from your first source...

"The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000.... "

and from your second source
"Handguns were used in 5,871 recorded crimes, an increase of 46% over the previous year. Seventy percent of robberies in which a firearm was present involved a handgun."

If Alabama could get down to just 6,000 crimes with a handgun a year, it would be a miracle and a half.

[Superfly]

20. Ummm...

an increase from 3,685 to 5,871 is a 40% increase. The sources jive pretty well.

As for your last point, I'm not sure what Alabama has to do with the level of crime in the UK.

[MrBenchley]

22. They sure "jive" all right....

varying as they do by 40% for the same year.

[Superfly]

24. Go back and look again...

first one is for 1999-2000 second is for 2000-2001.

[MrBenchley]

27. If that were the case

they went DOWN 40%....

[Superfly]

29. Good Lord, man...

1999-2000 3,685 crimes committed with firearms
2000-2001 5,871 crimes committed with firearms

Yeah, they went down....:freak:

[demsrule4life]

50. Why are you always picking on AL ?

Gun crimes FY 2000-2002

Alabama 16,200
New Jersey 26,000

Clean up your own back yard before you tell me how to clean up mine.

Also could you explain to me why some of the states with the highest gun crime are preatty much Democrat strongholds with the toughest gun laws?

http://neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gunsafety/Gun%20Safety%20PDF%20Files/StateGunCrimesChart.pdf

[MrBenchley]

51. It's a backwards right wing shithole, dems...

We got twice as many people in New Jersey as that pesthole Alabama does...

"Clean up your own back yard"
New Jersey has a Democratic governor, Democratic senators, a mostly Democratic House contingent, and a newly Democratic legislature. But then I'm not the one trying to pretend Democratic polices are a failure, unlike some people.

[demsrule4life]

52. Pesthole?

And you never been here? At least I can swim in the lakes and not come out with a third eye or extra arm. :)

[MrBenchley]

53. It's a right wing pesthole....

Fighting it out with Mississppi for ugliest national disgrace....

[demsrule4life]

71. This wouldn't be a knock against the new

Democrat Gov of Miss would it?

[Superfly]

55. Alabama is a beautiful state....

Way down yonder on the Chatahoochee...

Went to Jump school in Columbus GA and we would wander over to AL when the bars closed in GA.

[demsrule4life]

57. They have wet counties on the Alabama side of Ft Benning?

My county is dry, thank god I only live two minutes from TN. :)

[Superfly]

59. Damned good largemouth fishing, too.

Although the summers can be a little oppressive and the kudzu has the most insatiable appetite for growth...

[demsrule4life]

62. I don't mind the summers that much

I worry about Mar through May, tornados make their home in north AL that time of year.

[MrBenchley]

58. Last in education, last in public health

But hey, it does edge ahead of Mississippi in teen pregnancy and is only in the bottom five for household income.

"Alabama women rank low.
Low in leadership. Low in voting. Low in employment. Low in the number of high school graduates. Low in health. Low in reproductive rights. Low in life expectancy.

With C being the highest mark, in the area of employment and earnings, and F being the lowest in reproductive rights; Alabama women are not making the grade.
The Institute for Women's Policy Research conducted a study stating that, "Alabama women continue to face serious obstacles to achieving equality with men and attaining a standing that is equal to the average for women in the United States."
The percentage of Alabama women who graduate from high school ranks 50th in the nation, according to the report. Alabama women earn 63 cents of every dollar an Alabama man earns. This was the earning power the average woman achieved nationally by 1979.
Also, Alabama women lead the nation in high blood pressure and diabetes, are 49th in the rate of the sexually transmitted disease Chlamydia and 48th in heart disease.
Further, Alabama women rank 46th in the nation for life expectancy, 46th in infant mortality and 47th in child mortality and low birth-weight babies. 58 percent of Alabama women are living in counties without an abortion provider, and low income women are receiving funding for abortions only in limited, federally mandated circumstances. "

http://www.thewhitehouseproject.org/whp_news/Alabama_Plainsmen_Dec_4_02.htm

[demsrule4life]

56. Lot of Dems here for it to be such a right wing

cesspool.

http://www.knology.net/~hendrixj/Marta/Alabama_Senators.html

[demsrule4life]

63. Backwards?

With Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Engelhard, Mercedes, Toyota, NASA flight Center and dozens of high tech computer companies, some of the highest rated hospitals in the country are located here. Yep it is backwards alright. Problem with so many people on the internet is they don't know shit except for what they read on the internet. You have never been here, you have never worked or lived with the people, you are not qualified to have an opinion on what Alabama is like.

[MrBenchley]

64. Too frigging funny....

"Problem with so many people on the internet is they don't know shit"
For example, some people assume others have never been to Alabama....or announce that Ed Asner is a commuinist....or post crap only from right wing websites

[iverglas]

54. good bleeding grief

http://www.netstate.com/states/tables/st_population.htm

Populations, 2000 US census:

New Jersey: 8,414,350
Alabama: 4,447,100

26,000 gun crimes divided by 8,414,350 population (NJ) = 309/100,000
16,200 gun crimes divided by 4,447,100 population (AL) = 364/100,000

Your point was?



Also could you explain to me why some of the states with the highest gun crime are preatty much Democrat strongholds with the toughest gun laws?

I'd actually love to see someone who rails against gun control tackle that one.

That is, if they did it by honestly taking into consideration the factors that have actual causal effects on both "voting Democrat" and "having high gun crime rates", and didn't just try to say "voting Democrat causes high rates of gun crime".

(That was what someone was going to say, wasn't it?)

Of course, I don't know ... is Alabama a Democrat stronghold with tough gun laws?

.

[MrBenchley]

60. In fact, Alabama is a right wing cesspool

that is so pro-gun they actually had Al Quaeda training for jihad in their midst without saying "boo."

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/WNT_alabama_camp020725.html

But then fanatic religious zealots who love guns and hate secular government, women's rights, and the modern world feel right at home there in the land of pellagra and ignorance.

[demsrule4life]

61. You have a point

with all the problems Alabama supposedly has it is a Democrat stronghold. Makes you think don't it.

[pnb]

23. Apples and oranges

The comparisons between different cultures only shows that the ways of thinking are different. The numbers you bring up there regarding 4,000 murders is irrelevant when it comes to seeing if banning handguns make a difference. What makes a difference is a change in crime over time in the area that enacted the ban. And reliable sources have indicated that violent crime in England has risen. The percentages you give indicate only 1 area and only one specific type of crime...not a good indicator of any overall trends. It doesn't offer proof just because you want it to.

[Romulus]

10. I like this part:

"Of the 20 police areas with the lowest number of legally held firearms, 10 had an above average level of gun crime.

And of the 20 police areas with the highest levels of legally held guns only two had armed crime levels above the average."

edited to add:
Oh, never mind -I'll post it on Pert's thread.

[iverglas]

36. good god

Is somebody really implying that low rates of firearms ownership lead to high rates of firearms crime?

Now, let's put our thinking caps on, and apply what we know about firearms in the UK -- BEFORE OR AFTER the recent tightened restrictions.


"Of the 20 police areas with the lowest number of legally held firearms, 10 had an above average level of gun crime."

What would be the police areas in the UK with the lowest number of legally held firearms?

Well now, that would be URBAN AREAS.

Where are we likely to find the highest crime rates in yr average country -- in particular the kinds of crimes that often involve firearms, like crimes relating to drug trafficking, and crimes committed by drug traffickers and drug users?

Surely not BIG CITIES?

"And of the 20 police areas with the highest levels of legally held guns only two had armed crime levels above the average."

I'll bet somebody else can do this one. Any hands?

What would be the police areas in the UK with the highest number of legally held firearms?

Gosh darn it, that would be RURAL AREAS.

And where would we be likely to find the lowest crime rates in yr average country -- in particular drug-trafficking-related kinds of crimes, and crimes committed by drug traffickers and users?

Little towns and villages and farming areas, perhaps?


So let's see now. What would we have here?

Causation?

Or correlation?

Y'all be the judges.

.

[FatSlob]

37. Low rates of legal ownership

seem to correlate with high rates of crime. Higher rates of legal ownership seem to correlate with lower rates of crime.

[iverglas]

38. that's very clever

Low rates of legal ownership seem to correlate with high rates of crime.
Higher rates of legal ownership seem to correlate with lower rates of crime.

And it's pretty much what we already knew.

It's just that we know so many more things.

High rates of firearms crime correlate with large, dense population concentrations.
Low rates of firearms crime correlate with small, sparse population concentrations.

High rates of firearms crime correlate with marked presence of organized criminal activity.
Low rates of firearms crime correlate with marked absence of organized criminal activity.

High rates of firearms crime correlate with very diverse populations (in racial, ethnic, income terms, etc.).
Low rates of firearms crime correlate with very homogeneous populations.

High rates of firearms crime correlate with high rates of illegal drug use in a population.
Low rates of firearms crime correlate with low rates of illegal drug use in a population.


And now ... which half of each of those pairs do low rates of firearms ownership correlate with in the UK? and which half do high rates of firearms ownership correlate with in the UK?

In each instance, low rates of firearms ownership correlate with the first case for all the phenomena mentioned, which also correlates with high rates of firearms crime.

In each instance, high rates of firearms ownership correlate with the second case for all the phenomena mentioned, which also correlates with low rates of firearms crime.

Firearms crime rates are higher in large, dense urban centres, with a marked presence of organized criminal activity, diverse populations and high rates of illegal drug use -- THE CITIES. Big cities are where firearms ownership rates are lowest in the UK.

Firearms crime rates are lower in small communities and sparsely populated areas, with a marked absence of organized criminal activity, homogeneous populations and low rates of illegal drug use -- THE COUNTRY. The country is where firearms ownership rates are highest in the UK.

People in the country probably eat more vegetables than people in the cities, too. Is vegetable consumption a causal factor in firearms crime rates?


So really, I should have phrased the question differently.

In considering the fact that high legal firearms ownership rates correlate with low firearms crime rates, and that low legal firearm ownership rates correlate with high firearms crime rates ... what do we probably have?

Causation?

Or coincidence?

We all know that we have coincidence.

We all know that high rates of legal firearms ownership outside large cities in the UK have pretty much absolutely nothing to do with firearms crime rates in those locales.

We all know that legal firearms ownership outside large cities in the UK does not operate in any remotely significant way as a deterrent to firearms crime, and that higher legal firearms ownership in the large cities in the UK would not operate in any remotely significant way as a deterrent to firearms crime.

But of course, anybody who wants to is welcome to pretend that s/he doesn't know this.

.

[FatSlob]

39. Wow! I'd love to know

how many words per minute you type. Banging out a epistle like that would take my hunt and peck self/ADD self way too long.

[Pert_UK]

41. Well yes but.......oh forget it, you won't listen anyway will you?

Peace.

P.

[NorthernSpy]

19. a bit more about the story

According to the Bolton Evening News, Lindsay was a drug dealer, and the stab wounds were to Swindells' back:


The jury heard how drug dealer Lindsay was in his Walkden flat at 9.45pm on February 27, 2003 when he answered the door to four men carrying loaded handguns.

(...)

They demanded cash and searched the dealer before Lindsay suddenly whirled round holding a 12 inch samurai sword at shoulder height.

The gang fled with about £200 but dropped half of it as they ran.

There was a scuffle in the hallway during which Lindsay stabbed Swindells four times in the back. He died soon afterwards from massive blood loss. Jailing Lindsay for eight years Mr Justice Hughes said the dealer had been severely provoked and initially acted in self defence.



(from http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/lancashire/bolton/news/NEWS8.html )



I'm not endorsing the court's findings in this case -- just passing on some more info.


Mary


(edited: typos)

[Pert_UK]

40. Wasting your time I'm afraid.....

People have already concluded that in the UK you get sent to prison for defending yourself, that we've been disarmed, de-sexed, doped-up and forced to bend over and take it without complaint from every criminal who appears on our doorstep....

Never mind that the guy sent to prison was a drug dealer wielding an illegal weapon and who was stabbing someone in the back as they were running away.

Call me crazy, but I'd rather live in a society where even the drug dealers and criminals aren't legally allowed to kill each other......

Thanks for the link though - I knew that there was more to the story than some people would have us believe.

P.

[Superfly]

42. There's a country where

drug dealers and criminals are allowed to kill each other legally?? Where might that be?

[iverglas]

44. that would be the country

There's a country where drug dealers and criminals are allowed to kill each other legally?? Where might that be?

... the country that exists in the daydreams of those who don't think that Tony Martin should have been punished for shooting that teenager in the back. I believe there are a few of them around these parts.

I suspect that there are also a few here, perhaps the same few, who would argue that the sword-wielder in this tale should not face charges. Same country, different day.

.

[Superfly]

45. And you think he should?

Face charges, that is.

[MrBenchley]

46. Guess you want to live in that country, fly...

Since you seem to be hinting there's something preposterous about iverglas thinking a drug dealer who stabbed another in the back with a sword ought to be facing charges?

[Superfly]

47. Maybe I'm missing something...

but where in the article does it say he was a drug dealer or that he stabbed the man in the back?

[MrBenchley]

48. Hellooooooooo?

"The jury heard how drug dealer Lindsay was in his Walkden flat at 9.45pm on February 27, 2003 when he answered the door to four men carrying loaded handguns....There was a scuffle in the hallway during which Lindsay stabbed Swindells four times in the back. He died soon afterwards from massive blood loss."

[Superfly]

49. Oops, my mistake...I was following the link in the first

post.

Still, can't say I feel any pity for the dead guy.

[Romulus]

43. hey!

Someone's got to help out the French tourism industry!!:evilgrin:

People have already concluded that in the UK you get sent to prison for defending yourself, that we've been disarmed, de-sexed, doped-up and forced to bend over and take it without complaint from every criminal who appears on our doorstep....

[Narf]

65. Sounds like the intruders got what they deserved.

And the homeowner got shafted by a bass-ackwards system that punishes the wrong party.

[Pert_UK]

66. NO NO NO NO NO!

I assume that you didn't pick up the update, i.e. that this guy was a convicted drug dealer who ran out after the raiders and stabbed one of them 4 times in the back with an illegal weapon.......

Self-defense is OK in the UK, stabbing someone repeatedly in the back as they run away is not.

P.

[slackmaster]

67. So the story turns out to be good news after all

One wannabe robber out of the gene pool, one drug dealer off the streets for eight years.

[Pert_UK]

69. Yes, mob rule and vigilante justice is good news for all!

Well done, good work, nicely spotted....

:eyes:

P.

[Narf]

70. I stand corrected.

I did not have the information that the guy with the sword pursued the intruder outside of the house and attacked him. Most definitely NOT self-defense.