Terror watch list

[one-eyed fat man]

The resident advocates of gun control have decried the fact that everyone on the super secret terror watch list is not automatically banned from buying a gun. In reams of breathless hyperbole they extol the virtues of unconstitutional violations of civil rights like the "no-fly list" as long as they are used to hammer people they hate, i.e. gun owners of any kind. Can't let civil rights impede a perfectly good persecution.

The NY Times did a nice piece explaining just what these people are espousing as the greatest crime-fighting tool since the Batmobile.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/28/us/even-those-cleared-of-crimes-can-stay-on-fbis-terrorist-watch-list.html

Yesterday's NY Times has an article on the "terrorist watch list, and here are a few segments:

The Federal Bureau of Investigation is permitted to include people on the government’s terrorist watch list even if they have been acquitted of terrorism-related offenses or the charges are dropped, according to newly released documents. ...... The 91 pages of newly disclosed files include a December 2010 guidance memorandum to F.B.I. field offices showing that even a not-guilty verdict may not always be enough to get someone off the list, if agents maintain they still have “reasonable suspicion” that the person might have ties to terrorism. ....... Ginger McCall, a counsel at the Electronic Privacy Information Center, said: “In the United States, you are supposed to be assumed innocent. But on the watch list, you may be assumed guilty, even after the court dismisses your case.” ...... Normally, it says, if agents close the investigation without charges, they should remove the subject’s name — as they should also normally do in the case of an acquittal. But for exceptions, the F.B.I. maintains a special file for people whose names it is keeping in the database because it has decided they pose a national security risk even though they are not the subject of any active investigation. ...... The procedures offer no way for people who are on the watch list to be notified of that fact or given an opportunity to see and challenge the specific allegations against them.

Chris Calabrese, a counsel with the American Civil Liberties Union, called the watch list system a “Star Chamber” — “a secret determination, that you have no input into, that you are a terrorist. Once that determination is made, it can ripple through your entire life and you have no way to challenge it.”

Strange to recall that only last year the Times had this to say:

There seems to be a strong sentiment in Congress that the only constitutional right suspected terrorists have is the right to bear arms.... The Senate Homeland Security Committee hearing on “Terrorists and Guns: The Nature of the Threat and Proposed Reforms,” concerned a modest bill sponsored by Senator Frank Lautenberg of New Jersey. It would allow the government to stop gun sales to people on the F.B.I. terror watch list the same way it does people who have felony convictions. Because Congress has repeatedly rejected this idea, 1,119 people on the watch list have been able to purchase weapons over the last six years. One of them bought 50 pounds of military grade explosives."

Not to mention this:

The mayor’s speech is a plea for lawmakers to close the so-called “Terror Gap,” a hole in the law that prevents the federal government from blocking the sale of firearms or explosives to people on the the terrorist watch list. Because this kind of stuff is on people’s minds lately, we thought we would post the text of his prepared remarks.

Or this:

But the law is such that the F.B.I. can’t tell a gun dealer like Mr. Mastrianni not to sell a gun to somebody we think is a terrorist and whom the T.S.A. won’t let on a plane. Two years ago, 400 mayors, led by Michael R. Bloomberg of New York and Thomas M. Menino of Boston, called for this oddity to be eliminated.

The irony is sweetly delicious, but completely lost on some.

[jeepnstein]

1. It's un-American.

The "watch list" and using it to deny travel, or civil rights, is nothing short of an abomination. We have working courts and due process. We don't need some kind of Star Chamber convening to decide if this person or that person is "guilty" in their eyes.

[TheWraith]

5. The entire "terrorist watch list" is a pretty obvious fifth amendment violation. nt

[RSillsbee]

9. But if it gets one rude toter off the streets

it's worth it.

[Glassunion]

2. Those "newly released documents" are a sham...

According to the documentation(emphasis mine)...

The FBI must have a reasonable suspicion to believe that the subject is a known or suspected terrorist(KST). To meet this standard the FBI must have "articulable" intelligence or information which, based on the totality of the facts and taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrants a determination that the subject is known or suspected to be (or has been) knowingly engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or terrorist activities. There must be an objective factual basis for the nominator to believe that the individual is a KST. Mere guesses or "hunches" are not enough to constitute a reasonable suspicion that an individual is a KST.

Then please explain HTF journalists critical of the Bush administration ended up on the watch list? The document says was the document says, but nominations to the list have absolutely nothing to do with the guidelines set forth in the documentation. You piss someone off, your critical of their work, your a member of the wrong political party, etc... you can be arbitrarily added to the list and you have zero recourse against your government in getting your name removed.

You will forever have that hanging over your head, that you are a suspected terrorist because you dared question your president on why we went to war in Iraq, or you forgot to put double foam on a field agent's cappuccino. Every time you attempt to travel, every time you have an encounter with the police, try to re-enter the country from your vacation, the information that you are a "suspected terrorist" will come up. In every dealing that you have with the "authorities", this information will set the tone of that encounter. Gowd Bless Auhmerrka!

[SteveM]

3. Ah, the Times, whose editor once manned a Gatling gun atop its building...

overlooking the streets of New York (Draft Riots, Civil War-era), doesn't mind emitting it's own foul splat onto the 5th -- when it suits their purposes, of course.

Had to add this:


"There seems to be a strong sentiment in Congress that the only constitutional right suspected terrorists have is the right to bear arms...."

So, it seems the Times decided to engage in a little payback by tacking on its own abuse; y'know, to even the score. And they think no one notices. Strange for such an erudite news organ.

[gravity556]

4. Hooray! More idiot ideas from the anti-rights crowd.

Should the folks on the terror watch list (which is secret and requires no due process of law to add a name to-merely "suspicion") also lose their 1st, 4th, and 5th amendment rights as well? Since there seems to be a hue and cry by a swarm of nincompoops to abrogate rights based on a secret list, they might as well wipe their asses with the rest of the bill of rights as well.

Keep in mind, this is the same list that has prevented fucking TODDLERS from boarding aircraft because their name happened to be on the list. How can y'all be certain that you won't end up on this list due to political activism? Shall we bring back the McCarthy witch hunts? Blackball suspected dissidents? What about if a republican wins the white house and keep control of the house and senate? Do you want them to be able to abrogate your rights because you disagree with their policies?

[one-eyed fat man]

6. The irony is

The very same list was berated in the foulest terms available when it was the Bush-Cheney list.

Now the very same list belongs and has been EXPANDED by the present administration and Napolitano, Lautenberg, Pelosi, McCarthy, Schumer et al embrace it with the zeal of a bride on her wedding night.

Funny how a foul abuse of power by THEM is justified as good public policy when it becomes OURS.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

7. Dad had a way of "explaining" it.

Doesn't matter who first forgot to flush, the last one in the room is getting blamed and punished.

[gravity556]

8. One of my friends states it another way.

"Remember, a law cracking down on anything that is favored by one side, will be ammended and crack down on the initiator's sacred cow at the changing of the guard."

If you don't want republicans abusing some secret bullshit list like the terror watch list, make sure you don't lay the groundwork for them to do it at a later time. Politics are always in flux. And the PATRIOT bill should have been left to die in the wilderness.

[DissedByBush]

10. Why are we pussyfooting around with the list?

Come on, let's go straight to what they want.

If they don't like you, you disappear. Nice and simple.

George Bush's wet dream come true.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

11. Show up at my door with some damn list...

...and we'll see who disappears.