Sheriff Paul Babeu: ATF accomplice to cartel murders

[Renew Deal]

This is a SW region sheriff that is upset about the ATF gun program. He is concerned about the guns being used to kill Americans.

http://cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2011/09/28/ac-babeu-fast-and-furious.cnn.html

[spin]

1. Great video well worth watching no matter what side of the gun control debate ...

you are on.

[DWC]

2. Short. Simple. True. A must see for all. n/t

[gravity556]

3. Pinal County has major problems as a route for drug and human smuggling.

And he has every right to be pissed about F&F.

[Hoopla Phil]

4. His position does have merit. n/t

[Nuclear Unicorn]

5. OMG! 200 people? Is this true?

I know about the scandal but not that 200 people had been killed because of it. Can that be corrobroated?

[Hoopla Phil]

6. Yep, I've read that figure also. The 200 number comes into play

when you include all the Mexican citizens that were killed using these walked guns.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

7. I feel horrible when I read of "collateral damage" when we try to put down actual bad actors

This is 200 people killed for what? What were they doing? What were they trying to accomplish?

I feel sick.

[Hoopla Phil]

8. I've read two theories on what the purpose was.

Now keep in mind that the ATF claims they were doing this to track the guns to the cartels. HOWEVER, the ATF has never explained how they intended to actually do this when they always lost the guns when they crossed the boarder.

So the two theories I've heard are:
1) that this was an effort to boost the numbers of guns with U.S. origins found at cartel related crime scenes in Mexico. This would be the precursor for another call on an "assault weapon" ban here in the U.S. What gives rise to this theory is the fact that as the numbers of US origin guns found in Mexico were making headlines, cries for a new "assault weapon" ban were being made.

2) that the U.S. had an interest in one cartel in Mexico putting down a rival cartel. To this end, the U.S. funneled guns through a straw purchase program to the cartel that they were backing. This has shades of Iran/Contra all over it.

[X_Digger]

9. Hell, they lost track of them *before* they hit the border. n/t

[Nuclear Unicorn]

10. I'm an atheist praying this was incompetence

If either of those theories is even remotely true than our government took actions it had to reasonable suspect would result in innocent people being killed. This would be School of the Americas all over again.

I want this to be a tracking operation gone horribly awry. I don't want to believe we would do something so brutally, murderously sefl-serving such as you described on purpose when history has already howling at us to stop and think.

[spin]

11. Why do you think our government is so hated in much of the world? ...

Uncle Sam doesn't always wear a white hat.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

12. This wasn't the abstract concept of a national mascot

This was specific people making specific plans to achieve specific goals and I think enough people in America -- left, right and center -- would be duly horrified if this got more attention.

[spin]

13. I agree and would also add that people from both sides of the gun control issue ...

should be outraged when the existing laws that we have are ignored and bypassed and because of that a large number of deaths have occurred and will continue to occur.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

15. I can only wonder

what if the DEA deliberately released high-grade heroin onto the streets claiming it wanted to watch the distribution network and 200 people OD'ed as a result. People should be going to prison and dismissals of "Oh, it's just the inner-city" should be a slapping offense.

[spin]

17. In today's world people at high levels of government, corporations , ...

Wall Street or the Banks that are Too Big to Fail rarely go to jail.

Maybe if we started to send a few to prison, we would live in a better society.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

20. "Maybe if we started to send a few to prison, we would live in a better society."

It could hardly be a worse one.

[Katya Mullethov]

25. Serious question .

Did the severity of F&F just now come to your attention ?

[gravity556]

16. I seriously doubt this was a tracking operation gone awry.

Hell, at one time, there was a gang in Chicago who put the word out that for 2 million dollars they would commit terrorist acts on US soil. The ATF sold them stinger missiles (their plan was to shoot down an airliner on approach into O'Hare) that were deactivated but had GPS transponders concealed within. Had the F-Troop really wanted to track these guns, they could have done something similar-particularly since technology has advanced quite a bit since the mid 80s.

And given the press and statements from government mouthpieces prior to the discovery of their dirty little secret, there was a call for another AWB as well as other restrictions because of Mexico's insistence that all their gun problems came from the US. So the usual anti-rights politicians jumped on the bandwagon to try and further infringe on lawful gun owners, using the cartel violence as an excuse.

If Mexico is so concerned about guns coming in via smugglers from the US, my suggestion would be for them to erect a fence the length of their border with the US. Little chance of that happening, however, since Mexico's economy seems to be driven primarily by illegal immigrants sending money back to Mexico and Mexican cartels sending drugs north to the US. But instead of dealing with their own problems internally, Calderon had the balls to demand that the US violate the second amendment. Which would disarm LEGAL gun owners in the US, but do absolutely nothing to stop the cartel violence, and may even lead to the cartel violence spilling even further into the US.

I have family in Benson and Douglas and Yuma, all right down near the border, and they don't dare leave the house to take care of their ranch work without going in pairs and armed with long guns. There have been a couple of occasions when those long guns saved their lives when they stumbled on a group of drug mules who were laid up on their land.

Not too long ago, a couple was on a lake on jet skis in Texas that straddles the border and they came across a boatload of cartel drug runners. They tried to escape, but the husband was shot and killed and his wife barely escaped with her life. They did nothing to provoke the attack other than having the misfortune to cross paths with a group of piece of shit terrorists-and if you think terrorist is an overblown description, you obviously don't pay attention to the news coming out of Mexico. Just a couple of days ago, a female blogger was found stripped, disemboweled and decapitated, and a note was left with the body warning that this would be the fate of anyone else who interfered with their operations.

Or the corpses cut into pieces, the skin peeled off their skulls, their genitals cut off and signs of perimortem torture. Things like blowtorch burns and electrical burns. There are whole towns taken over by the cartels-the Mexican army is outgunned and the citizens themselves are disarmed hostages. Yep, Mexico is a gun control paradise-an example of what happens when only the outlaws have guns.

How anyone who purports to support liberty and human rights can champion removing a population's means of self defense doesn't explode from the cognitive dissonance, I'll never know.

Fortunately, thanks to the speed with which information spreads via the net and cell phones and social media, the anti-rights and pro-criminal safety assholes keep finding themselves outmaneuvered by citizens who cherish ALL of the rights ensconced in the Constitution. And by the way, those amendments aren't rights granted by the state-they are limits to governmental powers.

Again, hopefully heads will roll over this gunwalker goatfuck, and those responsible for it should serve prison time-either here or in Mexico, considering that Mexico is the injured party. IIRC, a gentleman 9 or 10 years ago got caught crossing into the Mexico with a single round of ammunition that was under his seat. He served 3 years in Mexican jail before he was released. I hope the responsible parties for this fiasco serve commensurate prison time for their crimes.

[spin]

18. Great post. Very interesting read. (n/t)

[gravity556]

22. Thanks. :) (n/t)

[Atypical Liberal]

21. We have a history of doing this sort of thing.

The US has a sordid history of this kind of criminal involvement in manipulating governments or other interests in its own interest. This is really no different than arming the Mujahedin, or the School of Americas, or Iran-Contra, or a host of other illicit international manipulative schemes.

The real difference here is our government is putting tens of thousands of people in jail for drug crimes on one hand, and on the other hand they are directly involved in supporting the people who are supplying the drugs.

That, to me, is a very big fucking deal. It is a lethal hypocrisy.

[Iktomiwicasa]

24. Unfortunately...

..."I want this to be a tracking operation gone horribly awry. I don't want to believe we would do something...."

is a sentiment that seems to be preventing a large number of progressive-minded people from taking an honest look at this debacle. We absolutely CANNOT afford to wear the rose tinted glasses any longer. We need to get to the bottom of this, and let chips fall where they may, even if it brings down a president.

[Iktomiwicasa]

23. If either of these...

scenarios are true, this mess almost certainly goes all the way to the White House. Goddam wasicu politicians...

[Glassunion]

14. It's ok, they are little brown people.

You have to kill like 10,000 of them at once for it to get the same MSM coverage as 1 American.

[spin]

19. Especially true if the American is a young attractive blond female ....

that merits 24/7 news coverage.