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Fast and Furious blows wide open: US Govt sold arms directly to drug cartels.

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Atypical Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 11:48 PM
Original message
Fast and Furious blows wide open: US Govt sold arms directly to drug cartels.
Found via reddit.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/furious_revelation_OhK6TBqPlEpRglHjsSbiBI

"This just might be the smoking gun we’ve been waiting for to break the festering “Fast and Furious” gun-running scandal wide open: the Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives apparently ordered one of its own agents to purchase firearms with taxpayer money, and sell them directly to a Mexican drug cartel.

Let that sink in: After months of pretending that “Fast and Furious” was a botched surveillance operation of illegal gun-running spearheaded by the ATF and the US attorney’s office in Phoenix, it turns out that the government itself was selling guns to the bad guys."


This is incredibly bad news for the United States and President Obama's administration. A horrible black eye to happen under the watch of a Democratic president that could set us back for years, unless, hopefully, it can be shown that this sort of thing has been going on since prior to Obama taking office.

We are incarcerating thousands upon thousands of people for using and/or selling illegal drugs. And now it turns out, as the rumors suggested, that we have been directly arming drug cartels. It is going to be increasingly difficult to claim the need for drugs to be kept illegal when it is official US policy to support the people supplying the product.

It's still not clear what the ultimate motivation was here, but this one is starting to come apart at the seams. The fallout could be spectacular.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. This is business as usual for federal agents.
ATF, FBI, DEA....they're all a bunch of corrupt thugs, and have been for quite some time now.

"'Twas ever thus" -Mr. Natural
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veganlush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
2. the post is a gossip rag. n/t
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. So, the story is gossip ?
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/28/video-kth-botched-atf-gun-sting/?hpt=ac_mid

You should be questioning why MSNBC doesn't run this 'gossip'.


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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. So.. our government keeps drugs illegal, then arm the cartels to prolong the drug war
you know, i'm beginning to think our government is NOT on the side of the people.
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. The higher I go, the crookeder it gets." --Michael Corleone
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razorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-11 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. There is no such thing as a benevolent government.
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gravity556 Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 02:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. The only way this shitstorm is going to be defused is
total disclosure and termination and prosecution of the parties involved. I know that Mexico wants those responsible extradited to be tried under their law, and all things considered, that may be the only way to ease the tensions building. Had it been a non-government group that had done the same thing, including coercing the gun shop owner to make what he knew were straw purchases, the news as well as every anti-rights and pro-criminal safety group would be screaming for heads on pikes on the White House lawn.

There'd be demands for stricter gun laws, and in fact, before it broke the the BATFuckers were behind it, some groups were already trying to do exactly that. Let no crisis go to waste. The only problem was that 99% of gun owners are law abiding citizens who are getting tired of constantly being a scapegoat over bullshit blaming the inanimate object rather than the sentient being who conciously chose to rob/rape/murder someone. And the anti-rights group blared spin like it was going out of style. Claiming that 70% of all guns traced in Mexico originated in the US, even though the actual number was 70% of the guns TRACED, not guns total. I think the actual number was around 12% that could be traced to the US, and I'm sure a good portion of those were weapons sold/given to the Mexican army by our very own government. Which is the result of rampant corruption in the Mexican military and government.

I have little doubt that a portion of F&F was intended to stir support for further restrictions on law abiding gun owners, particularly in the border states, which, with the exception of California, have gun laws more in line with both the Bill of Rights and their state constitutions. I've heard calls for registration for "assault weapons"(a term coined by an anti-rights weenie intended to scare an ignorant public), even though the Supreme Court has declared that criminals are exempt from registration due to it violating their right against self incrimination. Think about that for a moment. Let the stupidity of the "registration will lessen gun crimes" mingle with the fact that those very criminals are exempt from having to register their guns.

The Mexican people are begging for loosened gun laws so that they can protect themselves from the cartel hit squads, who are heavily armed with shit you aren't going to find at a gun show anywhere except Bloomberg's imagination. Like live grenades, LAW anti-tank rockets, MK19 grenade launchers, RPG7s, full auto AK47s (you can buy a full auto AK in the US, but it costs 200 bucks for the ATF to change the registry and about 12-14 thousand dollars for the rifle, after you fill out a form 4, beg your local chief law enforcement officer to sign that form 4, submit your 200 dollar check and provided you pass the ATF and FBI background check. Not cash and carry, no matter what sensationalistic news source you prefer.

Most of Mexico's cartel guns come from South America. Easier to bribe a border official (or threaten him and his family with torture and death) on Mexico's southern border and then you can just ship in truck fulls of weapons. Like the batch of grenades that originated in Korea, or the AK47s coming from China and former Soviet states. Particularly since the Border Patrol has been tightening up the border as much as they can-not easy to sneak a truck full of guns through an ICE x-ray machine. Much easier to use another route. Cheaper, too. Figure buying in bulk from some foreign government, they probably run about 75 bucks a piece, and that's for the real deal, full auto AK47. In the US, the price is closer to 5 or 600 dollars per, and that's for a semi-automatic rifle (looks like a big scary machine gun, but works just the same as grandpa's semi-auto hunting rifle-one trigger pull, one round fired.

If the administration doesn't come clean and then clean house, I fear it may be an albatross for Obama...
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. "gun owners ...being a scapegoat over bullshit blaming the inanimate object "
weepy
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gravity556 Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. See, you didn't even mention the actual criminals.
Just made some half ass snark "weepy". Let me guess, you think if all the guns magically vanished, street gangs would stop killing each other? Peace on earth would suddenly break out? It would be all hugs and kisses like medieval times, right? Except those days, the murder rates were REALLY high.

How about we start sticking first time violent offenders in a 6x9 cell for 20 or 30 years without the possibility of parole? Instead of 3 weeks in jail and 6 months on probation?
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. People are so mean to you! ... eom
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Do you favor both of the prohibitions discussed here? nt
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gravity556 Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. It's cute that you tried....
But I just don't think you have the vocabulary nor the ability to string words into complex sentences that might hurt my feelings. You get a gold star and a note for your mom to put on the fridge, though.
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burf Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. The longer they stonewall on this
the worse its gonna get.
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. It couldnt possibly just...." go away "
But why a gun-running scandal , ran secretly by the U.S. government to send thousands of firearms over an international border and directly into the hands of insurgents , hasn’t been pursued by an army of reporters all trying to be the next Bob Woodward or Carl Bernstein is a story all by itself .

It is , as they say ........." A big fucking mystery" .





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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. You don't mess with the big guys anymore. (n/t)
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Oh no ?
Here .... hold my beer .
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burf Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Maybe the White House Press Corps
doesn't want the treatment a CBS reporter got.

CBS reporter Sharyl Attkisson has been doggedly covering the ATF and DOJ scandal surrounding the gunwalking “Fast and Furious” case. And now she’s coming out with some juicy details about her attempts to get information from the DOJ and the White House regarding the case.

On Laura Ingraham’s radio show Tuesday, Attkisson said she was “screamed” and “cussed” at by the White House while trying to get information last Friday, and that a DOJ spokesperson “yelled” at her while she was trying to get clarification on the case. And she named names.


Whole story at: http://www.theblaze....st-and-furious/

My money is on Ms Attkisson doesn't get a Christmas Card or an invite to the Christmas party form the White House. But then again, a story of her being a dominatrix in her spare time might be "Breaking News" on one of the White House friendly networks at any moment.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
8. It's Murdoch ...
I tell ya!
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
13. Funny how far some will go to further a gun ban agenda.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
14. I smell the CIA in action ...
We may be helping some very bad guys in Mexico -- but they are our bad guys. Kinda like Manuel Noriega in Panama.


Manuel Noriega

***snip***

Involvement with CIA

Although the relationship did not become contractual until 1967, Noriega worked with the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) from the late 1950s until the 1980s.<9> In 1988 the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration indicted him on federal drug charges.<10><11>

The 1988 Senate Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics and International Operations concluded that "The saga of Panama's General Manuel Antonio Noriega represents one of the most serious foreign policy failures for the United States. Throughout the 1970s and the 1980s, Noriega was able to manipulate U.S. policy toward his country, while skillfully accumulating near-absolute power in Panama. It is clear that each U.S. government agency which had a relationship with Noriega turned a blind eye to his corruption and drug dealing, even as he was emerging as a key player on behalf of the Medellín Cartel (a member of which was notorious Colombian drug lord Pablo Escobar)." Noriega was allowed to establish "the hemisphere's first 'narcokleptocracy'".<12> One of the large financial institutions that he was able to use to launder money was the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) which was shut down at the end of the Cold War by the FBI. Noriega shared his cell with ex-BCCI executives in the facility that is known as "Club Med".

In the 1988 presidential election, Democratic candidate Michael Dukakis highlighted this history in a campaign commercial attacking his opponent, Vice President (and former CIA Director) George H.W. Bush for his close relationship with "Panamanian drug lord Noriega."<13>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Yeah, their odor is beginning to waft up...
One disturbing clue is where "control" of the guns was lost: In the Sinaloa Cartel. While some say this cartel is the most powerful, others claim the Zetas are the top one; bargaining as it were for a power-sharing role in the Mexican government. If this whole "gun walker" thing was merely about an incompetent U.S. agency (the ATF) losing control of the firearms, then they would have been splattered between competing cartels, the highest bidder de jour, and all. But the guns went to the Sinaloa. I find it hard to believe that this would not be known by U.S. agencies, and it now appears it was known.

In the scheme of U.S. police/intelligence agencies, the DEA is always outranked by the CIA because it claims strategic capabilities not often associated with the DEA or even the FBI. I'm afraid this is where the buck stops.
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gravity556 Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
22. The shitstorm from this could be epic-like when they exploded that whale fallout.
But they're worried about this? " A horrible black eye to happen under the watch of a Democratic president that could set us back for years, unless, hopefully, it can be shown that this sort of thing has been going on since prior to Obama taking office."

How about the black eye from not stomping on it like the plague rat it was? You don't let that shit run for a year or two just to see how it goes, you fucking tear it out into the light and expose it for the sneaky underhanded shit the other side pulls. Patriot act should have died on the vine as well.

But you can't use it for a year or two or more and then when you get caught with your pants down, cry fowl on the other guy. Because then you look very much like a fool.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-11 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. "You don't let that shit run for a year or two.." -- one word: Guantanamo. n/t
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gravity556 Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-11 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Dang. Forgot about gitmo due to all the transparency....
silly me.
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burf Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-11 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Maybe they can use the excuse
that it was some leftover "unitary executive" crap that was leftover from Shrubs administration. Kinda like some leftover meatloaf in the refrigerator.
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