Stop me if you've heard this one...

[Speck Tater]

Man walks into a church, pulls a pistol from inside his shirt and kills a random pregnant woman, wounds another, and then shoots himself.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2011/09/30/Spanish-man-kills-pregnant-woman-in-church/UPI-84801317391671/

http://es-us.noticias.yahoo.com/espa%C3%B1a-m%C3%A9dicos-tratan-salvar-beb%C3%A9-asesinato-madre-083933688.html

So does this mean priests should be armed too?

Maybe the REAL solution is much simpler... maternity-size bulletproof vests.

[ileus]

1. That's why I never attend services without my LCP

I did propose to the board a few years back about arming the sound crew with an AR. From their position they see the main doors and could respond quickly to any threats before they make the main Sanctuary. If on the rare occasion a active shooter stood up or started shooting in the middle of the crowd they'd have an accurate enough weapon to respond among a group of people.

[RC]

3. What's a LCP and an LR?

Spell things out so the rest of us know what you are talking about.

[gejohnston]

7. Ruger LCP

a model of a pistol made by Ruger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_LCP

[Atypical Liberal]

10. Types of firearms.

The Ruger LCP is a small pistol. The AR is short for AR-15, which is the most popular center-fire rifle in America.

[liberal N proud]

2. Church would be much safer if everyone was carrying

I have heard that one dozens of times.

[Katya Mullethov]

5. Holy mackerel , a Root Revolving Shotgun

The original Assault Weapon . Did you know those rapid-fire WMDs aren't even classified as firearms by the ATF ?

[Iktomiwicasa]

6. That's my kind of gal right there.

[Tejas]

15. A gun, bullwhip, and handcuffs?

:rofl:

[Iktomiwicasa]

17. She's just....

....hot.

[TheWraith]

12. Now that looks like a church I would attend regularly. nt

[Kennah]

50. She could make me confess all sorts of things

[Tejas]

16. Too much cheap booze, and what's

with the upside down Texas flag? Or the 50-star US flag?

[oneshooter]

26. Not to mention the evil Hangmans noose! n/t

[RSillsbee]

18. I have heard that one dozens of times.

Then surely you can cite an example or two. We'll wait.

[liberal N proud]

21. If only I would have bookmarked all the time someone in this forum

has used it.

My bad!

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberal N proud]

23. ~

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RSillsbee]

25. That's just funny

You have stated that a certain thing is routinely said in this forum. I would like to see some proof

[SteveM]

30. "If only." Perhaps you couldn't because you can't find it. nt

[Hoyt]

27. I'll vouch that what he said is basically true. Maybe a word or two is different, but sentiment is

common around here.

Now posting about a shooting in Spain isn't particularly helpful here, other than the fact the given easy access to guns people will shoot just about anyone, anywhere.

[liberal N proud]

29. I don't know why I try to respond to threads in this forum

There are some here that are simply difficult to have an adult conversation with.

[SteveM]

32. Perhaps your "trying" is really moral condemnation...

If you really chose to bookmark, you might see where people who carry guns anywhere, not just churches, do so for self-protection. No one is forcing you or anyone else to carry any guns anywhere.

You might also see that so-called "gun-free zones" are viewed as billboards for those who wish to inflict mayhem on others; hence, the disappearance of these signs from formerly-posted locales -- even if the law does not require removal of such billboard postings. Maybe some people in authority began to view the issue of bearing arms like, well, adults.

[Hoyt]

43. What do you expect? These are folks who feel compelled to strap a gun or two on to go out in public

Worse, they believe more folks walking around with guns will improve our society, and they promote it. Some make money off guns too. Finally, the thought of not being able to strap on a gun or two before venturing into publice is frightening to them. It is difficult.

[liberal N proud]

44. One just needs teflon undies to venture here.

[oneshooter]

47. While YOU believe that the government is responsible for your protection

Ya know, the police are here to "defend and protect" all of us. You who would gladly have us in a police state, because it is "safer for all".
You who would "run away, peeing your pants and screaming like a little girl" at the sight of a holstered firearm that is not controlled by the agents of the government.

I work part time at a gun shop, so yea I make money, legally, from the sale of firearms.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Starboard Tack]

53. Who said the government is responsible for our protection?

Quote please. And why are you still insulting and bullying those who disagree with you? Toting a gun does not give you the right to be a bully.

[gravity556]

51. Really, Hoyt?

Didn't know that Spain had concealed carry. Maybe you could post the relevant portions of the law. Man, y'all are really reaching.

[Euromutt]

45. By "have an adult conversation" you mean you don't get called on unsupported assertions?

And very possibly unsupportable assertions? Yeah, sorry about that; this particular sub-forum is one of the few where there is actually a difference of opinion, and as a result, the strength with which you hold an opinion isn't enough to carry the day; you actually need to provide empirical evidence to back up your claims.

Deal with it, or get out of the kitchen.

[SteveM]

31. So, you'll "vouch." wow. he don't need no steeekning bookmarks.

[oneshooter]

33. Yea, like you really know about anything you yammer about. n/t

[Euromutt]

46. Maybe you haven't noticed, but your word doesn't carry a whole lot of weight around here

And no, it's not because the people who disagree with you are in denial. It's because you're unable to articulate a reasoned argument in support of your position, and can only resort to painting caricatures and erecting straw men to support your claims. Note that I do not use the word "argument," for the simple reason you don't have any.

[friendly_iconoclast]

52. Why vouch? You have a donor star and can search. Should have lots of results, *if* true...

Guns Forum, 'church' 'shooting' as keywords- Get to it, and back up what you claim.

Though I rather suspect this is another case of "all wind and no windmill" from you...

[friendly_iconoclast]

54. As usual, no reply when asked for empirical evidence.

All wind and no windmill, that one....

[Remmah2]

4. You may want to check your GPS coordinates. nt

nt

[Hoopla Phil]

8. At my church the paster IS packing. Along with all the deacons and

anyone else that has a CHL.

[iverglas]

35. ah yes

A phenomenon we all know well.

Vote Democrat, do they all?

:rofl:

[slackmaster]

9. What Spanish gun-related policy issue are you really trying to discuss here?

:crazy:

[GreenStormCloud]

11. I carry concealed in church. I am not the only one at my church that does. No big deal. N/T

[safeinOhio]

28. Ye of little faith

I also wondered about church steeples with lighting rods on them too.

[gejohnston]

40. I am told that the

Lord does work in mysterious ways and that all prayers are answered. Often the answer is "no".

[PavePusher]

48. Free will, etc. God's not there to do everything for you. If s/he's there at all...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helps_those_who_help_themselves

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MicaelS]

14. And this has precisley WHAT to do with the 2nd Amendment

To the US Constitution or the RKBA in the United States? Nothing.

Unrecc'd

[Euromutt]

19. It's remarkable how those who dismiss OPs sourced to articles in the Washington Times...

...on the basis that it's the "Moonie Times" aren't all over this thread to dismiss the OP because the source is UPI, even though UPI is no less Moonie property (via News World Communications) than the Washington Times.

Anyway, given that we're talking about Spain, even if the shooter owned the handgun legally, he almost certainly did not have authorization to carry the pistol loaded "inside his shirt" in public, so we're looking at yet another murderer who wasn't deterred from committing a murder by the prospect that, to bring the murder weapon to the scene of the crime, he'd have to break the law.

And good grief, no, the last thing the world needs is to have Catholic priests be armed. Nor would they want to; traditionally, the Catholic church has relied on the "worldly authorities" to perform its dirty work, e.g. to carry out the sentences handed down by the Inquisition, while washing its hands in the manner of Pilate. But if you've studied the Spanish civil war (1936-1939) to any degree, you'll have noted that Catholic priests were frequently executed by the Republicans, and if that seems atrocious, understand that the Spanish Catholic village priest was very often an agent of the ruling class, and only a hundred years previously was the guy who would report you to the Inquisition. And in this day and age, we know there's a damn good chance he raped children as well. We have been ill-served by the portrayals in the popular media of Catholic priests; we think of Father Mulcahy from M*A*S*H* or Father Dowling, but those were actors portraying fictional characters, not real Catholic priests. The media reports of the last ten years or so give us a much better picture, of a hierarchy riddled with corruption, where the members who didn't personally rape kids at best covered up for those who did.

[iverglas]

36. my goodness

Somebody has never heard of worker priests, or liberation theology ... and apparently isn't even aware of the liberal streak in his own Dutch RC church ...

When it comes to the Netherlands, it's the ultra-right-wing Dutch Reformed types one has to watch out for, actually.

One of my favourite campaign trail tales was when I unwittingly knocked on the door of a priests' residence, and was told by the guy who answered the door that he and the other Dutch priests there would be voting for me ... but he couldn't speak for those French-Canadians ... . I had a Dutch RC priest as an elected representative for a while, from my own left-of-centre party.

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-05-12/news/mn-18506_1_papal-visit

Okay, it's 1985, 'round about the same time as my door-knocking experience ...

Pope Lectures the Rebellious Dutch : Liberal Church, Resentful Jews a Challenge on 26th Trip
May 12, 1985|DON A. SCHANCHE | Times Staff Writer

UTRECHT, Netherlands — Against a background of death threats, boycotts and open hostility from many of the most rebellious Roman Catholics in Europe, Pope John Paul II politely but firmly lectured the liberal Dutch church Saturday on obedience to his authority.

... A bitter controversy over the Pope's recent appointment of an ultraconservative bishop in liberal S Hertogenbosch, accustomed like the rest of the Dutch church to relative autonomy from Rome, prompted the pontiff's call to obedience, although his exhortation was softened somewhat in delivery from the formal text that was released in advance by Vatican press officers.

... Dutch Catholics, many of whom espouse the most liberal ideas in world Catholicism, including marriage for priests, women in the priesthood, democratic administration of individual churches and independence from Rome, have been split over the papal choices of bishops here since John Paul began replacing moderate and liberal church leaders with conservatives of his own liking several years ago.

Many leading liberal Catholics declared in advance of the Pope's visit that they would boycott his public appearances.

Polls conducted before the visit showed that a majority of the nation's 5.6 million Catholics either were indifferent to or opposed his trip. On Wednesday, a disparate group of Catholic objectors, including gay priests, married priests, feminists and peace advocates, held a peaceful protest rally in The Hague.

Guess I'll be looking for another expert on all things Euro.

[gejohnston]

37. I think he was

speaking historically and on the macro level today. I doubt the Dutch church is representative of Catholics world wide.

[iverglas]

38. "I doubt the Dutch church is representative of Catholics world wide. "

I actually couldn't figure out what the hell he was talking about, except that he seems to have a hate on for the RC Church. I'm not a huge fan myself, but I don't pretend that all parish priests are scum.

Quebec's worker priests and all the liberation theology priests of Latin American may not be representative of the church either -- but then neither is Ratzenburger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker-Priest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

Yup, both saw their heyday before 1990. Nonetheless, the RC Church is not a monolith and the tirade against priests was pretty much uncalled for.

As I said, it's the right-wing Protestants (of all such denominations) that I see as a considerably greater social and political problem. And they, not RCers, are the gun militants.

[gejohnston]

39. still have to ask......

He did say the RC would not be a "gun militant". What on earth is a gun militant, and why does it matter to you?
Pointing out warts of the church or anyone else is not hatred any more than teaching kids that the US army used biological warfare against first nations in the US unpatriotic. The historical record is the historical record.

[iverglas]

42. give me a break

Pointing out warts of the church or anyone else is not hatred

The post I initially replied to was not "pointing out warts"; it was, as I said, a tirade.

And the expression I used was "has a hate on". Please.

[Euromutt]

49. As the saying goes, "In the Netherlands, even the Catholics are Calvinists"

Whereas by contrast, in Spain, the saying goes that "even the Communists are Catholics." In short, when a particular religious denomination has had several centuries to influence national culture, it can be very difficult for individuals to shake off the cultural trappings stemming from the doctrines of that religion/denomination, even when they've rejected adherence to that particular denomination.

Specifically in the Netherlands, ontkerkelijking ("deconfessionalization," i.e. rejecting organized religion) among Catholics was sparked in no small measure by the televised broadcast of the Second Vatican Council; suddenly, every Catholic in the country could see that what the village priest told them on Sundays was disputed or even contradicted by cardinals. It pretty much did for the Catholic People's Party (KVP, Katholieke Volkspartij), which had previously been a coalition-maker or -breaker, but subsequently suffered such a loss of support that it was forced to merge with two Protestant parties into the Christian-Democratic Appeal (CDA, Christen-Democratisch Appèl) to avoid becoming marginalized.

[gravity556]

20. What does a shooting in Spain have to do with the price of a Big Mac in Oklahoma?

[petronius]

34. He shot two pregnant women specifically, or is that a translation issue?

If it's the former, I'm very curious to hear the motivation... :shrug:

[petronius]

41. And totally off topic, am I the only one who can't see this thread without thinking of The Smiths?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naos7it_bl0&ob=av2e

"Stop me, oh, stop me
Stop me if you think that you've
Heard this one before
Stop me, oh, stop me
Stop me if you think that you've heard this one before

Nothing's changed
I still love you, oh, I still love you
...Only slightly, only slightly less than I used to, my love"