Why do conservatives want to make it easy to buy a gun...

[WCGreen]

but think they are celebrating freedom by making it harder to cast a vote...

Both are rights guaranteed by the Constitution. Shouldn't they both be treated the same?

They are willing to let convicted felons to be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to purchasing but are scrutinized when the try to get into the voting booth.

[aikoaiko]

1. When buying a gun from a licensed dealer, there is more paperwork and background checks than voting.

[WCGreen]

21. Gun Shows....

[rl6214]

29. Dealers at gun shows require the same paperwork

[aikoaiko]

34. Licensed dealers at gun shows require the same paperwork and many private sellers also require ID

Of course if you get your gun sales information from the assholes at the Brady Campaign or VPC or the supreme asshole Bloomberg, you wouldn't know that. The manipulate the ignorant as much as the NRA.

[slackmaster]

42. It's actually more complicated to buy a gun at a gun show in my state

All sales including private-party transfers have to go through a licensed dealer, and the state-mandated 10-day wait often means a second licensed dealer (one who does business near the buyer's home) gets involved in the transaction as a transfer agent.

[safeinOhio]

63. I see as many guns sold and bought

in the parking lot by private seller and buyers here in Ohio. If you get out of your car with a long gun or handgun case, lots of people try to get to you before you get in the gate.

[AtheistCrusader]

53. Washington Arms Collectors gun shows require a background check for membership

and membership to buy or sell at the show. Plus, all licensed gun dealers MUST do the same background checks at the shows, as they do at work.

Other states may have a problem, we don't.

[SteveM]

55. Concerning "Gun Shows..."

A "Gun Show" is a rent-a-hall wherein vendors rent table space. Many are FFL dealers who must go through the same paperwork as a brick & mortar gun shop or big box which deals in firearms. Some are not FFL dealers, and hence are not required to go through the same paperwork, much as you or I would not be required if we were to sell/purchase a firearm over the kitchen table. In fact, we could NOT access the NICS system if we wanted to. We are not dealers. However, all perspective sellers of firearms -- FFL dealers or no -- are prohibited from knowingly selling guns to a disqualified individual.

If you have a proposal which would require ALL purchasers/sellers to have a b.g. test, please propose one. This topic has been discussed here over the years, and has considerable support among pro-2A regulars in this forum.

Incidentally, if gun shows were prohibited, this may very well run afoul of the First Amendment, and would in any case cause individuals (non-FFL dealers)to seek other forums: Craig's List, classifieds, etc. I don't have the data on hand, but surveys of crims & thugs who used firearms in their crimes indicated that fewer than 5% obtained their guns from "Gun Shows."

Not much of a "loop hole."

[oneshooter]

59. A Texas CHL is concidered the same as a NCIS check, no call needed. n/t

[MineralMan]

2. Depends on the kind of firearm and the jurisdiction, really.

I can walk in to any place that sells firearms in Minnesota and walk out with a semi-automatic rifle, a rifle suitable as a sniper weapon, or a shotgun in about half an hour. A handgun is another matter, and will require a waiting period. I don't own any handguns I haven't owned for many years. If I wanted a new one, I'd go in and purchase it, then pick it up when the waiting period was over. Ammunition purchases in any amount require me to show my MN DL at the checkout counter.

What do you think should be the rules? How would you change them. One thing is certain...my long guns are far more deadly than my handguns. Far more.

As for convicted felons, they'd have an almost impossible task in purchasing any firearm from a legitimate source. Voters aren't checked as carefully, really, and they could just show up and register at the polls and vote.

[Abin Sur]

6. Somewhat restrictive rules you have there.

Here in Colorado there's no waiting period for any firearm other than the "instant" backround check which usually tales half an hour.

If I could change one Federal rule it would be to repeal the 1986 ban on the new manufacture of automatic weapons for civilians.

[RSillsbee]

11. Please see my post 8 NT

[RSillsbee]

8. I don't own any handguns

I'm quite sure you claimed to own a 1911 several months ago. I distinctly remember asking to see a picture and getting told that you don't post photos of your guns.

ETA Specifically response 3 of this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=396694&mesg_id=396701

Posted march of this year


Both statements can't be true


ETA April of this year this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x408309#408311

Response 30

anti-gun?" I'm not, and I have a CCW license, although I rarely carry. I am, however, anti-fuzzy logic. I believe that everyone should be able to defend against fuzzy logic, and should have the tools needed to do so.


If you don't have a hand gun why do you have a concealed carry permit? and just what are you carrying?


Jan 25 2011 this thread that you started

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x367081


My current carry sidearm is a 50s vintage 1911a1,
rebuilt and accurized. I cannot envision a defensive situation where I would need more rounds than its standard 7-round magazine holds. Can you describe such a situation, so I can understand why a high-capacity magazine has any practical use? Note: I do not carry with a round in the chamber, either.

[rl6214]

13. I think you are mis-reading what he said...

"A handgun is another matter, and will require a waiting period. I don't own any handguns I haven't owned for many years. If I wanted a new one, I'd go in and purchase it,"

Specifically: "I don't own any handguns I haven't owned for many years"

I read that to say the handguns he owns he has had for many years. If he wanted a new one he would go in and purchase it.

[RSillsbee]

15. I don't see how you reach that conclusion

I don't own any handguns

Present tense statement I do not (at this time) own any hand guns.

IOW the sum total of "handguns I own" right now is zero

I haven't owned for many years

What hasn't been owned for years? boes "owned" mean "purchased"?

[GreenStormCloud]

18. So he left out the word, "that" in the sentence.

We all know what he meant. Don't get overly picky on grammar.

[RSillsbee]

31. I would accept that answer

I don't own any handguns thatI haven't owned for many years

That would make sense

I wasn't picking at grammar, I thought he had stated in one place that he did own a handgun and was now stating that he did not.

IOW I thought he was lying

My apologies

[MineralMan]

37. The word "that" isn't needed in that sentence.

The sentence was grammatical and accurate. It took a deliberate misreading to come to the conclusion reached by that poster.

[RSillsbee]

40. First let me apologize, I DID misread your sentence

Please let me assure you that I did not intentionally read something that wasn't there in to it. I really did think you were claiming you didn't own any handguns.

Again, my sincere apologies

[MineralMan]

44. That's OK.

No problem.

[rl6214]

46. AAAAWWWWW, group hug?

Glad I could help facilitate this wonderful moment, LOL.

[MineralMan]

48. Misunderstandings about what someone wrote are pretty

common on DU. Thanks for helping to clarify this one. I added my own clarification this morning, since I wasn't around yesterday to see the mistaken post.

Misunderstandings are just misunderstandings. Once they're corrected, everything goes back to normal.

[rl6214]

49. Don't I know it, I've seen my share of blowups over a missed

punctuation mark, a left out word. I'm just messin with you this morning. Take care.

[SteveM]

56. I think most style manuals say "that" is overused at that. nt

[petronius]

60. That which you *meant* that to say is

"I think that most style manuals say that "that" is overused at that." ;)

[SteveM]

61. That's where it is! nt

[MineralMan]

36. I don't own any handguns that I haven't owned for many years.

Reading is FUNdamental. Yes, I do have a 1911a1. When I carry, that's my carry weapon. I have a couple of other handguns as well. Haven't fired those in years. They're just legacy revolvers I've owned for a long time.

[burf]

19. Where do you live in MN where you have a

waiting period? I live in Otter Tail county. They require an permit card to purchase. I filled out a form and was issued a permit good for one year, (otherwise refered to as a mother may I card) and have purchased guns in MN and ND. The only problem is that when I buy in North Dakota, the gun is taken to a FFL holder in MN, who does the Federal background check, charges a 20 dollar fee for "transfer" and I walk out the door with my purchase.

What is the procedure in your neck of the woods?

[Oneka]

28. the waiting period

in Minnesota is satisfied by the time it takes to receive your permit to purchase. in my case about 14 days, back when i lived in Ramsey county.
once you have that there is no other wait. also a permit to carry a pistol, supersedes the permit to purchase and is valid for 5 years of wait
free pistol purchases.

Also, in Minnesota i have NEVER been asked to show identification to vote, even when i showed up at the polls not having been previously registered.

[burf]

35. So calling it a waiting period is a misnomer.

My current permit is good for a couple more months. I can, as long as it is valid walk in, purchase, and walk out with my new gun in a matter of minutes. Hardly a waiting period.

[rl6214]

47. But you have already been vetted.

Do you really think a waiting period is neccessary for someone that has gone through the extra scrutiny?

[burf]

52. No. The paperwork for the permit is awfully close

to the paperwork a buyer fills out at the time of purchase of a gun for the background check. It is a waste time and resources.

The point I was trying to make is there is no waiting period in which you purchase a gun and cannot take possession until some time in the future.

[krispos42]

27. I thought you had a week's waiting period for all semi-autos?

I seem to recall you needed some sort of permit to purchase a semi-auto long gun in Minnesota. Took a week to get or something, and the cops had that weeks to positively deny you.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. They care a lot more about guns than they do votes!

I really think they'd like to see only the rich property owners having the right to vote...if that.

I agree with you: these rights should be treated in the same way.

[gejohnston]

7. they really don't care about guns

but it does serve their purpose, divide and conquer, for now. The local laws being repealed were put in place by the right wing.

[DonP]

51. Treated the same way - really?

So you think every vote should have to show avalid and current state issued picture ID, have their vote cleared by the FBI and the state police before they cast it, then wait from a day to 10 days (depending on the state) before it's counted?

You make the GOP look polite by comparison.

Or did you just not have any idea what goes into actually buying a gun?

[Bake]

4. Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, so the saying goes ...

You already knew the answer, though, didn't you!!

:hi:

Bake

[Euromutt]

32. That's Emerson, and it's "a *foolish* consistency"

As in, remaining consistent with your previous actions, even when you're aware doing so is the wrong--or at least, not the best--thing to do.

I'm not particularly aware that any mainstream conservative elements are militating to have released convicts' right to possess firearms restored, though. Unless it's with an eye to when Tom DeLay gets out of prison, perhaps.

[Shagbark Hickory]

5. We can spend all day listing their hipocrisies.

[RSillsbee]

9. Wouldn't this question be more suitable on say,

Oh let me think, a conservative website?

[Euromutt]

33. I was kind of wondering...

I mean, how the hell are we supposed to know what conservatives are thinking?

[Lurks Often]

10. Your post shows you don't know what is involved in buying a firearm

from a dealer. When I buy a firearm from a dealer, I have to give them my driver's license and pistol permit and fill out 2 separate forms and wait for the CT state police NICS (which I believe is connected to the Federal NICS database) to approve the sale and provide an authorization number, which can take 5 minutes on a good day or not at all on a bad day if the state system is down. If the system is down, I have to come back the next business day. To get the pistol permit, which in CT is a requirement to purchase a handgun, I had to go through an NRA certified pistol course, have my fingerprints taken by the local PD, wait for the local PD to do the background check and process the paperwork so they could issue the town permit and the go to the state police to get the state permit. NRA course $100, town $35, state $70 = $200. Purchasing a rifle requires either proof of taking a hunting course or you wait 2 weeks.

Private sales are governed by state law, which varies from state state. I can sell a rifle or shotgun to another CT resident without a background check, but a handgun requires us to either go through an FFL or for me as the seller to call the CT State Police and run a NICS check on the buyer's pistol permit and fill out the appropriate forms and mail them to the state police.

When I go to vote, they ask to see my driver's license and then cross me off the list, I vote and I am done.

[oneshooter]

16. I go to the store. pick out what I want, fill out a 4473, show my Texas CHL

Pay, and leave, Simple. To vote I go to the poll, show my ID, and vote. Again, simple.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Lurks Often]

17. You have Federal law AND your respective state law

governing the purchase of firearms, so some states have extra forms and may require a longer waiting period.

[oneshooter]

38. One other item, there is no "permit to buy" or Permit to own" in Texas

The Texas CHL # is written on the 4473 and no call is needed.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[safeinOhio]

64. I bought a handgun at a yard sale here in Ohio.

The only question asked was if I had the cash. Legal here and in many other states.
I took it to the police dept. to have the #s ran to see if it was hot or used in a crime.

[Abin Sur]

20. The firearm laws in CT are some of the worst in the country

In most states purchasing a firearms involves much less paperwork. For example, Colorado:

To purchase a rifle, shotgun, or handgun from a dealer, fill out one form 4473 and wait for a background check. 5 to 30 minutes, depending on whether or not there's a gun show going on at the moment.

To purchase a rifle, shotgun, or handgun from a private party, hand them money and take possession.

[Lurks Often]

22. I don't find them that bad

certainly not as bad as people say.

"To purchase a rifle, shotgun, or handgun from a dealer, fill out one form 4473 and wait for a background check. 5 to 30 minutes, depending on whether or not there's a gun show going on at the moment."

Essentially what I stated. I merely have to fill out a state form and scribble my signature a couple of more times.

"To purchase a rifle, shotgun, or handgun from a private party, hand them money and take possession. "

Again, what I stated, except for the handgun requiring a background check.

[gejohnston]

24. correction

the 4473 is a federal form. I take it CT requires private handgun sales be brokered by FFLs?

[Abin Sur]

25. I would...check out the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_%28by_state%29#Connecticut

Waiting periods, partial bans on "assault weapon" and some NFA weapons, having to get permission to sell a handgun to a private party...yechh.

Granted, there's worse. California, New York, Illinois, etc.

[Lurks Often]

39. I'm not saying the laws here are great,

but there are any number of states that are worse: CA, IL, NJ, NY, MD, MA and RI spring to mind.

The assault weapons ban specifies by name the guns we can't own and also has a list of "features" that in sum, result in a ban. However the AR-15 platform is still legal, the Kalashnikov platform is still legal except if it is chambered in 7.62x39. See (http://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/pub/Chap943.htm#Sec53-202a.htm) for a complete list, but for most of the common/popular weapons there is a legal alternative that is functionally identical.

Selective fire is allowed if grandfathered in before a certain date. Full auto only is still allowed and please don't ask me to explain how full auto is allowed and selective fire isn't. Gun owners in CT still haven't figured out a logical reason for that one.

If you have a pistol permit, there is no waiting period on a handgun, rifle or shotgun. If you have proof that you graduated from a hunter's safety course (I'm not sure of the exact nomenclature as I don't hunt) then there is no wait on a rifle or shotgun. Pistol permits are pretty much a shall issue thing. (We have had a few towns who try to slow or stop the process, but I haven't heard anything about that in a number of years)

Private sales of handguns require either going through an FFL or filling out the paperwork yourself and getting an authorization number from the state

[Abin Sur]

41. Fair enough. I would sum up the CT gun laws as worse than those in most states,

but better than some.

[rl6214]

12. Where in the world are you coming up with this?

"They are willing to let convicted felons to be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to purchasing"

[gejohnston]

14. has nothing to do with ideology or values

It has everything to do with getting and maintaining power.

They are willing to let convicted felons to be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to purchasing but are scrutinized when the try to get into the voting booth.

What benefit of doubt is that? I take it you are unfamiliar with current federal gun control laws. The Federal Firearms Act of 1938 made it federal crime (up to five years) for a felon to posses a gun, that includes John Dean and other white collar criminals. It also made it a crime to purchase a handgun outside your state of residence or to sell a gun to anyone not a resident of your state. The Gun Control Act of 1968 strengthened the law by, among other things, making it a mandatory minimum of five years for felon in possession. Up to ten years for other violations. In other words, it is a federal crime for me to buy a gun in Arizona or Utah without being brokered by an FFL holder. That includes background checks. Both of the 1930s gun laws (NFA-34) and parts of CGA 68 were supported by the NRA as well as the current NICS background check. I have seen no effort to change that.

As for making it harder to vote, it is to discourage working poor and minorities from voting. Also, the lower the turn out the better for the right. The higher the turn out, better for us. It is simple as that.
As Heritage Founder Paul Weyeric explains:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GBAsFwPglw

The century old laws being repealed were put in place by the right wing. It served their purposes then ensure safety for union busters and the Klan. That is why the south had stricter gun laws until the 1960s. Since the 1960s, it serves to divide urban/rural. When suburban liberals show their regional bigotry by ranting about gunloons, penis size, blood thirsty knuckle dragging hunters; it plays right into the right's hand.

Europe past their laws after World War One to keep guns out of the hands of leftist radicals. The murder rates were just as low then as now.

Sociologist Raymond G. Kessler studied the gun issue in depth more than anyone else I know of. The came to the conclusion that gun laws are fundamentally conservative or reactionary, serving conservative political purposes beyond simple crime control. His words for other reasons:

"(1) increase citizen reliance on government and tolerance of increased police powers and abuse; (2) help prevent opposition to the government; (3) facilitate repressive action by government and its allies; (4) lesson the pressure for major or radical reform; and (5) can be selectively enforced against those perceived to be a threat to government."

For being this aware, I thank Thom Hartmann

[Atypical Liberal]

23. What does firearm ownership have to do with voting?

The reason conservatives want to make it harder to vote is simple: they know that their demographic is fading away and there are increasing numbers of of African-American and Latino voters, who the conservatives have bent over backwards to alienate, who will vote against them if they are enabled to vote.

So they are completely in the wrong concerning voting rights.

They are generally on the right side of the issue concerning firearms, but mostly because they are pandering to their constituents using firearm rights as a wedge issue for the "god guns and guts" crowd.

They are willing to let convicted felons to be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to purchasing but are scrutinized when the try to get into the voting booth.

In what way does anyone give convicted felons the benefit of the doubt when purchasing firearms?

[eallen]

26. The right generally doesn't give a damn about liberty.

But fetishizes guns. It's one of the few liberties that isn't a threat to right-wing politicians. And also one of the few that ticks off many on the left. So it's more an opportunistic, social thing, than anything else. There's nothing deep there.

:hippie:

[gravity556]

30. Felons aren't given the "benefit of the doubt" when purchasing firearms.

Not only will the NICS system deny them, the very act of lying on a 4473 is a felony in and of itself. There's no benefit of the doubt given, just the threat of arrest for making the attempt.

And it what way are they making it harder to cast a vote? Requesting ID? Proving that you are who you say you are and recording that you have already voted? I'm not sure if you've lived under a rock the last 10 years or so, but there is an epidemic of identity theft going on. Would you prefer somone register as you and cast a vote for someone other than your preferred candidate? And felons lose the right to vote. They forfeited certain liberties when they chose to commit a crime. They lose the right to have firearms, they lose the right to vote, if they're on probation, they lose their right against warrantless searches.

If they feel butthurt about that, tough shit. Maybe they should have thought ahead rather than doing whatever idiotic thing that caught them a felony rap. We all have free will-if someone is too stupid to use it wisely, well then, fuck 'em.

[slackmaster]

43. Hey WCGreen, who exactly are these "conservatives" you are referring to?

They are willing to let convicted felons to be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to purchasing...

Come on, WC, you can do better than that. Name names. Give concrete examples.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

45. perhaps, you would do better to post this question over at FR -- you know

the place where Conservatives post.

I think they would be better qualified to address their reasoning.

:shrug:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. You are working from a false premise

No gun owner (right/left/centrist) wants the wrong guys able to obtain firearms.

The laws in place vary widely state to state, but in all of them it is harder to buy a gun that it is vote. I have never heard of a state where there is a ten day waiting period for a ballot.

[safeinOhio]

65. 30 days in Ohio

What are the qualifications to register and to vote in Ohio?

You are qualified to register to vote in Ohio if you meet all the following requirements:

You are a citizen of the United States;
You will be at least 18 years old on or before the day of the general election. (If you will be 18 on or before November 8, you may vote in the primary election for candidates, but you cannot vote on issues until you are 18);
You will be a resident of Ohio for at least 30 consecutive days immediately before the election in which you want to vote;
You are not incarcerated (in prison or jail) for a felony conviction under the laws of this state, another state or the United States;
You have not been declared incompetent for voting purposes by a probate court; and
You have not been permanently disenfranchised for violations of the election laws.
You are eligible to vote in elections held in your voting precinct more than 30 consecutive days after you are duly registered to vote in this state; however, you may request an absentee ballot during that period.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

67. That's not a 30 day waiting period

It is a requirement that you actually live in the state for at least a month prior to voting.

I don't see a damn thing wrong with that. After all, how would you like it if people just moved to a state the day before an election just to cast a vote and then moved away the day after?

[PavePusher]

54. The Bill of Rights clearly states that voting is a Right of Citizens.

So why should having to prove Citizenship not celebrate freedom?

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SteveM]

58. I don't know. Maybe you should ask them. There are sites, I believe. nt

[Hoyt]

62. They likely make money off guns, think there is a good chance they'll "need" to shoot or intimidate

someone, and/or there is some perversion involved that few understand.

[oneshooter]

66. "perversion involved that few understand." Just as few can understand your"perversion" about freedom