Georgia ban on guns in places of worship before court

[n2doc]

GREG BLUESTEIN, Associated Press
Published 05:55 a.m., Thursday, October 6, 2011

ATLANTA (AP) — A federal appeals court in Atlanta is hearing from a gun rights group that wants to overturn a Georgia state ban on guns in places of worship.

The 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta will hear arguments Thursday on whether the 2010 law violates the First Amendment's religious freedom protections.

The challenge was brought by GeorgiaCarry.org. The gun rights group maintains that religious institutions should be allowed to decide whether to allow firearms inside.

State lawyers counter that the ban allows worshippers to pray in safety.



Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Ga-ban-on-guns-in-places-of-worship-before-court-2205458.php

[HopeHoops]

1. Yeah, Jesus really wants you to bring your gun to church. He was all about guns.

[Glassunion]

2. Yeah... I'm sure he was all about firebombs too. Thankfully that never happens.

[S_B_Jackson]

3. It's not like there are never criminal attacks that take place in churches...

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/july-dec99/shooting_9-16.html

http://articles.cnn.com/2007-12-09/us/church.shooting_1_church-shootings-fatal-shootings-shooting-victims?_s=PM:US

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/news/local/knoxville-unitarian-church-shooting/

http://www.wfmz.com/business/Police-Parishioners-tackle-gunman-at-church-shooting/-/121698/1632124/-/g662o6z/-/index.html

Why would we not allow each congregation to make it's own decisions, rather than a paternalistic state assumption that those congregations don't have the ability to act in their own best interests?

[HopeHoops]

6. Yep. God, Guns and Apple Pie - that's what America's all about.

[PavePusher]

11. So, you're not here in "good faith", are you?

Are you providing security for a church somewhere? If not, why not?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

25. And baseball/sports... don't forget sports.

[S_B_Jackson]

37. Why should each congregation be free to determine for themselves

whether or not they wish to allow firearms to be carried by their congregants?

I know that the pastor of my local baptist church has a concealed carry permit, and I presume - though I've never asked him about it - that he carries on the church property.

[rl6214]

40. So in other words you've got nothing to add to the debate except

smart ass remarks?

[Glassunion]

21. Nothing bad happens at churches.

Thankfully nothing happened as these churches on these particular dates that are attended by folks of a particular heritage, and that it did not cause the Clinton administration and the Houses at the time to enact legislation making the incidents that did not happen on those particular dates a "special type" of crime and make it easier for Federal prosecutors to arrest and investigate these "special types" of crimes that did not happen.

Johnson Grove Baptist Bells Tenn. Jan. 13 1995
Macedonia Baptist Denmark Tenn. Jan. 13 1995
Mount Calvary Baptist Hardeman County Tenn. Jan. 31 1995
Mount Zion AME Williamsburg County S.C. June 20 1995
Macedonia Baptist Manning S.C. June 22 1995
St. John Baptist Lexington County S.C. Aug. 15 1995
Mount Pisgah Baptist Church Raeford N.C. Oct. 31 1995
Mount Zion Baptist Boligee Ala. Dec. 22 1995
Salem Baptist Gibson County Tenn. Dec. 30 1995
Ohovah AME Church Orrum N.C. Jan. 6 1996
Inner City Knoxville Tenn. Jan. 8 1996
Little Zion Baptist Green County Ala. Jan. 11 1996
Mount Zoar Baptist Green County Ala. Jan. 11 1996
Cypress Grove Baptist East Baton Rouge La. Feb. 1 1996
St. Paul's Free Baptist East Baton Rouge La. Feb. 1 1996
Sweet Home Baptist Baker La. Feb. 1 1996
Thomas Chapel Benevolent Society East Baton Rouge La. Feb. 1 1996
Glorious Church of God in Christ Richmond Va. Feb. 21 1996
New Liberty Baptist Tyler Ala. Feb. 28 1996
St. Paul AME Hatley Miss. March 5 1996
New Mount Zion Baptist Ruleville Miss. March 20 1996
Gay's Hill Baptist Millen Ga. March 27 1996
El Bethel Satartia Miss. March 30 1996
St. Charles Baptist Paincourtville La. April 11 1996
Rosemary Baptist Barnwell S.C. April 13 1996
Effingham Baptist Effingham S.C. April 26 1996
Mount Pleasant Baptist Tigrett Tenn. May 14 1996
Mount Tabor Baptist Cerro Gordo N.C. May 23 1996
Pleasant Hill Baptist Lumberton N.C. May 24 1996
Rising Star Baptist Greensboro Ala. June 3 1996
Matthews Murkland Presbyterian Church Charlotte N.C. June 7 1996
New Light House of Prayer Greenville Texas June 9 1996
The Church of the Living God Greenville Texas June 9 1996
Evangelist Temple Marianna Fla. June 12 1996
First Missionary Baptist Church Enid Okla. June 13 1996
Hills Chapel Baptist Church Rocky Point N.C. June 17 1996
Mount Pleasant Missionary Baptist Church Kossuth Miss. June 17 1996
Central Grove Missionary Baptist Church Kossuth Miss. June 17 1996
Immanuel Christian Fellowship Portland Ore. June 20 1996
New Birth Temple Shreveport La. June 24 1996

[spin]

31. Do you have any concept of how lethal a sword is?

It was the handgun of its day and with a sword you can chop off a man's hand or head.

In fact, one of Jesus's disciples used a sword to chop off the ear of one of the men arresting Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.

7 Again he asked them, “Who is it you want?”

“Jesus of Nazareth,” they said.

8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” 9 This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.”

10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.)

11 Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”

John 18: 7-11 (New International Version)

In case you doubt how lethal a sword is just watch this video which compares the damage a .357 magnum can do to the damage a sword can do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwS9bV5X488 The servant was damn lucky he only lost an ear!


It would be logical to assume that Jesus knew that Simon Peter was armed and was not disturbed by it. In fact in Luke 22:35-38, he suggests that being armed is a good idea.

35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”

“Nothing,” they answered.

36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That’s enough!” he replied.

Luke 22:35-38 (New International Version)

[HopeHoops]

39. Indeed I do - my middle daughter is quite proficient with a sword.

She has a significant collection including a double-bladed that you could slice tomatoes with.

[gejohnston]

4. I see it as a church/state issue

Churches etc should be viewed by the state as no different than a store. It should be up to that church to decide if it will allow guns or not.

[petronius]

8. I agree. Places of worship shouldn't be given any 'privilege' or

'protection' beyond any other private entity in this regard. And conversely, the rights of individuals should come first...

[ileus]

5. Our AG took care of that problem for us here in Va. Good luck Ga...

He's mostly useless for everything except for 2A issues. Now every Sunday my LCP attend services with me instead of being in a unsecured vehicle waiting for a smash and grab.

[iverglas]

41. hahahahaha

He's mostly useless for everything except for 2A issues.

Another of those big honking coincidences, eh?

:rofl:

I mean, I assume what you're saying is he's not the model of a progressive politician ...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. It should be no different that any other store or establishment

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

12. Ooooo, the racism card.....

That "trumps" everything, amIright?

Did that sell in the screen-writer business too?

[Hoyt]

28. Doesn't "trump" a thing. Guns don't belong in church and it's mostly right wingers whining in OP.

[spin]

33. Exactly why do guns not belong in church?

Admittedly I don't go to church often, but the last time I did I was armed.

[Hoyt]

36. i wouldn't boast about that. But then, I'm not a member of your "gun culture."

[spin]

38. I'm not boasting ...

The fact is that the last time that I was in a church I was armed. I'm armed wherever I go unless it is a prohibited place like a school or a court house.

That's why I spent the time, effort and the money to get a concealed weapons permit.

You do not agree with allowing people to carry weapons and you have every right to that opinion.

[PavePusher]

43. You have not answered the question. Where have we seen that before...? n/t

[oneshooter]

50. Then you have turned in your firearms to the Police for destruction?

And if not then you are part of the "gun culture".

[gejohnston]

16. Speaking for myself

I was a kid in the mid-1960s
I was not in Georgia at the time. I was in Wyoming
Wyoming and Idaho was completely integrated, to the best of knowledge that is the way it always had been.

What does segregation have anything to do with what you are talking about? Do you have the same disdain for African American gun owners too?

[Glassunion]

20. I sure hope he does not. I would hate to be labeled tacky as well.

[ileus]

23. don't be a rude baser gunner toter...Just say no to being impolite.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ileus]

29. I've never seen guns, religion, or racism tied in together anywhere.

And is sure isn't going to happen in the South where everyone is polite to one another.

[Hoyt]

35. Polite if you are just like them.

[SteveM]

47. Correction: Gun CONTROL and racism have close ties. All better.

Seems whites could get hold of them without any problem, but state laws in the South expressly PROHIBITED blacks from owning them.

[SteveM]

46. You should visit this site, look up "in the courtroom," and read the...

amicus curiae brief submitted on behalf of Heller by this organization . Always keep in mind: The model for gun-control/prohibition has been repression of hated minorities and immigrants. You can thank LBJ for changing that. But controller/banners keep dragging ol' Jim Crow out for another reprise -- up north, that is.

http://www.georgiacarry.org/cms/in-the-courtroom/

[kestrel91316]

10. Oh, the gun lovers down south ain't gonna be happy about THIS.

NO one has ANY right to restrict any weapons whatsoever. Sez so right in the Constitushun.

[PavePusher]

13. And now the geographical bigotry.

We've got two, anyone care to complete the hat-trick?

[kestrel91316]

22. No bigotry. I am referring to the geographical FACT of where this conflict is happening.

But go ahead and carry on with the fake martyr act.

EXCUUUUUSE ME for not specifying the gun fans IN GEORGIA specifically (which IS in the south last I heard).

[SteveM]

48. See my link in #46 above.

BTW, how does race figure into this church-related issue?

[spin]

34. I live down south and it doesn't bother me in the least ...

but I live in Florida. I can carry my concealed weapon in a church if I decide to visit one.

[TheCowsCameHome]

14. Shhh! Quiet! Somethin' just moved behind that stained glass window....

Better duck behind this here pew....

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. Thanks. That made the third bigoted remark n/t

[Glassunion]

18. Hat trick!

[TheCowsCameHome]

26. Sez you.

Which doesn't mean jack........

[PavePusher]

32. While it was unrepentently silly and perhaps even stupid....

I can't agree that it was bigoted.

Naw, I think we're still waiting for the H-T.

[SteveM]

49. Are you doing a frosty against church windows again? No wonder it's stained. nt

[Glassunion]

17. Did I read that correctly?

"State lawyers counter that the ban allows worshipers to pray in safety."

Are the state lawyers guaranteeing the safety of all church goers in the entire state of GA?

Where was their guarantee for Harold and Thelma Swain?
Where was their guarantee for the parishioners of Albany Church?
Where was their guarantee for the parishioners of St. Matthew's Baptist Church?
Where was their guarantee for the employee working late in Saint Timothy United Methodist Church?
Where was their guarantee for the man at New Birth Missionary Baptist Church?
Where was their guarantee for the parishioner at New Bethel Tabernacle?
Where was their guarantee for the woman at West Side Church of Christ?
Where was their guarantee for the parishioner at Southside Assembly of God Church?
Where was their guarantee for the man at the Atlanta First Baptist Church?
Where was their guarantee for the youth pastor at Pendegrass Baptist Church?
Where was their guarantee for the parishioner at Fairfield Missionary Baptist Church?
Where was their guarantee for the parishioner of Powers Ferry Church of Christ?
Where was their guarantee for the man at Woodland Hills Baptist Church?
Where was their guarantee for the parishioner of St. Patrick's Catholic Church?
Where was their guarantee for the two nuns from Christ the King Catholic Church?

Exactly how can they state that the ban "allows worshipers to pray in safety?" when the ban has been completely ineffective in the past?

[friendly_iconoclast]

19. They'd have us believe God enforces the law against guns in churches.

And going by the examples you've given, He quite obviously does not.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

24. It should be up the property owner whether or not to allow firearms.

If a church or parish or temple want to allow firearms on premesis, then the owners of the facilities should not have their hands tied in the decision making.

Removing this ban will result in more freedom and more choice of the property owners.
I support removing this blanket ban.

[Glassunion]

30. They should not overturn the ban. Nothing bad happens in churches.

Aug - Sept of this year.
9/28/2011 Oklahoma City, OK Penn Avenue Church of the Nazarene... A white box sitting in front of the church dumpster did not explode. The ATF is also not investigating it.

9/24/2011 Wichita, KS Jehovah’s Witness Church in north Wichita... A suspicious backpack next to the building did not contain 5 homemade explosive devices that were not disposed of by law enforcement.

9/16/2011 Lakeland, FL Greater Faith Christian Center Church... No one came in shooting, wounding two pastors.

9/17/2011 Greenville, SC Crosswell First Baptist Church... Shots were not fired killing a man and his car was not stolen.

9/14/2011 Columbus, OH The fifth Ave. U.B. Church... A stabbing of one of the church volunteers did not occur.

9/12/2011 Austin, TX From April through September of 2011, the United Christian Church building had not been shot at least 12 times.

9/11/2011 Minden, NV Lifepoint Church Sunday School... A 10-year old boy was not kidnapped in front of a Sunday School teacher. Church officials did not catch the offender behind the church where he did not have the the boy pinned down and undressed.

9/4/2011 Salisbury, MD Supreme Council of the House of Jacob Church... A body was not found in the church and they were not killed with heavy blunt trauma to the head.

8/30/2011 Tulsa, OK Open Bible Fellowship... Two people were not murdered and robbed.

8/30/2011 Bossier City, LA First Baptist Church... There was not a murder/suicide in the parking lot.

8/26/2011 New Castle, DE New Castle Church... A 19-year old was not shot in the parking lot.

8/22/2011 Miami, FL Centro Evangelistico Luz Church... A man did not attack the pastor and three people did not suffer knife wounds from a man who was asked to leave the church two years prior for sexually harassing a church member in the bathroom.

8/16/2011 Jackson, TN Grace Baptist Church... A woman was not raped and shot in the head as she tried to escape from a serial rapist who specifically targets women in church parking lots.

8/12/2011 Spartanburg, SC Last Day Healing and Deliverance Center... An 18 yo woman was not shot and killed at the church in a case of mistaken identity not stemming from a gang shooting.

8/5/2011 Atascadero, CA First Baptist Church... a 4 yo boy was not kidnapped in broad daylight from the church's shelter.

8/3/2011 Mount Vernon, NY Greater Centennial AME Zion Church... A woman was not attacked and stabbed as she exited the church following choir practice.

[ManiacJoe]

42. Guns in church is not a problem in other states.

Is there something special about Georgia that makes it a problem?

[Glassunion]

45. Tasty, tasty peaches and peanuts.

You mix that, churches and guns... Hell, you are asking for a disaster.


I miss the peach cobbler Miss Taylor used to bring over to our house... :(

[jeepnstein]

44. What business does the State of Georgia have...

regulating the private property of a congregation? Is Georgia saying that houses of worship are somehow a "special" place that requires "special" regulation? I don't care for that, not one bit. It's up to the individual congregation whether to post their property or not. It's not the states' business to make special rules for churches.

I can remember a time when churches were being bombed in the South. If I were a member of such a congregation you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be packing. Or would the state just prefer that such churches fold and quietly go away?