Documents subpoenaed from Atty. Gen. Holder in 'Fast and Furious' probe

[rl6214]

The Republican chairman of the House oversight committee contends Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. knew more about the failed ATF gun-tracking operation than he has admitted.

Reporting from Washington— A leading House Republican investigating the ATF operation dubbed Fast and Furious subpoenaed documents from Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. on Wednesday, escalating the confrontation over the botched gun-tracing program.


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20111013,0,6169639.story

So is it a matter of just a 'botched sting' operation or is it a matter of Holder and the justice dept not being open and honest in what they new and when they new it?

[Firebrand Gary]

1. Issa is using his position to play politics. Disgusting!

[Kolesar]

2. With ya' ... eom

[Hoopla Phil]

8. So you don't believe that people died as a result of the ATF operation, or that

the ATF violated U.S. law, Mexican law, and international law? You believe none of that despite the evidence and testimony from those involved?

[PuffedMica]

3. The Republicans are capitalizing on a mistake to go on a fishing expedition

The Republicans once again demonstrate political gain trumps solving the nation's problems

[one-eyed fat man]

6. Were you carrying Holder's water last time around too?

Chiquita death squad attorney Eric Holder floated for U.S. Attorney General!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=405&topic_id=9608&mesg_id=9608

AG nominee Eric Holder: The Israelis like Marc Rich, so he's OK with me. Huh?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4572676

Once again you maintain that backing a son-of-a-bitch is good policy as long as he's YOUR son-of-a-bitch.

The guy has pulled the "I didn't read all of that stuff" before when confronted about memos and recollections. So was he lying then? Is he lying now? How long are you going to keep swallowing that stuff?

[PuffedMica]

18. Excuse me?

I did not contribute to either of those thread you quoted.

In fact, back in 2008 when those threads were started, I had a full time day job and only periodically lurked DU.

[one-eyed fat man]

25. There are reasons to distrust Holder long before this

The thread linked are only a couple. The were plenty of progressives who felt Holder's nomination as AG was a bad move.

There were plenty of folks here questioning Holder's 'selective memory' in the Marc Rich pardon debacle years ago. Explain to me why his veracity was questionable then, but now, on this issue, every word from his mouth is golden?

[PuffedMica]

26. See #20

n/t

[Hoyt]

7. Not just Republicans, many folks here are supporting the fishing expedition because they hate ATF

and laws that restrict -- or might restrict -- ownership and toting of guns that can kill a lot of folks, quickly, efficiently and ergonomically (as some of the gunners like to remind us is their reason for preferring so-called "assault" weapons).

[friendly_iconoclast]

10. You probably think pistol grips make it easier to shoot from the hip.

And the "ergonomics are bad, mmmkay?" crowd is heard from, once again.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oneshooter]

17. He rairly thinks before he posts. Thinking hurts his head too much. n/y

[Hoopla Phil]

9. So you don't believe that people died as a result of the ATF operation, or that

the ATF violated U.S. law, Mexican law, and international law? You believe none of that despite the evidence and testimony from those involved?

[Hoyt]

12. You don't think people die because we allow too many guns in America?

I do not think killing people was the intent of the sting. I do think it was poorly conceived and managed and heads should roll. I also believe people here are on a witch hunt because they love their guns and hate anyone who impedes acquiring and using them. Enjoy yours.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

14. If intent is all that matters hoyt...

...then you should have no problem with the pro-gun side of the argument. After all, our INTENT is never to harm someone or commit crimes....

[Hoyt]

15. The best of intentions often result in unintended consequences. But you guys don't care as long as

you've got your guns strapped on for family outings.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

16. That's not even remotely true.

I care very much - which is why I pay attention to what I do with mine.

As you said with holder though, intent is all that matters - so, since none of us intend harm, you can give up. Don't you feel better now?

[Hoyt]

19. How often do you shoot silhoutte targets. What kind of loads do you prefer? Ever strap more than

one gun on?

Do you practice like this guy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRt_xBl7dLU&feature=related


Finally, you may be an angel among toters for all I know, but lots of folks aren't so well meaning.

[friendly_iconoclast]

21. You don't understand, Hoyt. You kind of *have* to practice on silhouette targets.

if you are going to use a gun for self defense. Which brings up an obvious question:

Is there a lot of violent crime committed by dark round objects with target rings on them where you live? Because that would explain a lot....

Besides that: As a practical matter, your opinion is irrelevant as long as people like you are out-organized and out-voted
by people like me. Seems like the types of gun laws I like are more popular than the types of gun laws you
like. If you recall, popularity is your standard for the validity of weapons laws. Or does that only apply in the UK?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x468822

[Hoyt]

23. I know, gunners keep voting for right wingers because nothing else matters as much as guns.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

28. While your questions do not deserve an answer...

...I'll answer them anyway.

Silhouette targets? All the time.

Loads? When not shooting at the range, usually there are Gold Dots or Hydroshocks sitting in the magazine.

More than one gun? Nope. No point really.

No, i do not practice anything like the moron in that YouTube vid.

Am I an angel? Hardly. I'm pretty average.

You're taking a single example from YouTube and stupidly believing it represents reality.

[Hoopla Phil]

22. What a feeble dodge. Please answer the questions.

Or do you dare?

[PuffedMica]

20. I believe something bad has happened to the process that allowed Gunwalker and Fast & Furious

My major concern with this whole episode is that as a nation, our Constitutionally guaranteed right to keep and bare arms is getting a black eye from a bureaucratic fiasco that facilitated just what you said. Rather than address how this happened, the Republicans are looking for dirt to bludgeon our President in the next election while completely ignoring the potential damage our rights are faced with.

Couple this with Attorney General Eric Holder and the situation only gets worse. I would be more than happy to throw my support in with the Honorable Mr. Holder except for the way he has gone about remedying the situation. I realize Mr. Holder was 100% engaged with the public trials of the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, but as soon as F&F came up, he should have sought to make things right. I would have recommended an immediate root cause failure analysis be done to insure an operation like F&F never happens again.

Unfortunately what I see is instead of Mr. Holder stepping up to do what is right, he seem to be busily conducting a cover up.

[Katya Mullethov]

24. And an edict from on high

There will be an accounting !

"We believe , that even if at the highest levels , there was not detailed operational knowledge, there has to be accountability with respect to anybody in the government engaging in this " BHO 2011

ETA : My bad , he was talking about THE IRANIAN govt !

[one-eyed fat man]

27. Holder was a slimebag before

He's a slimebag now. He is running the cover up because he is in it up to his eyeballs. Just like he was in the Marc Rich pardon fiasco. He was the one who pushed it over the objections of low level Justice department staffers. He was the one who claimed he didn't read all of the memos when that mess blew up.

Eight years later, he must think since the fallout from his duplicity then did not prevent him from being appointed Attorney General that the same "tap dance" routine will save him now.

"Fast & Furious" was never about tracking guns, there was never any mechanism or plan to do so. The sting in that operation was to add to the "iron river" propoganda. "

We must stop the flow of guns into Mexico by passing a new Fderal assualt Weapons ban!"

That's the whole story, chorus and verse. It's a plank in the platform. Holder has publicly stated his support for it. Holder has pushed that line at every opportunity. It was a way to pad the numbers. What's a few dead Mexican drug smugglers, more or less?

[Oneka]

4. This program was NEVER a botched sting.

a botched sting would imply some mechanism for tracking the guns once they entered Mexico. ATF agents working here in the
USA have no jurisdiction in Mexico, and the ones down there, including the mexican attache, were never informed of the details of the program.
But most damning to the botched sting meme was that not one Mexican authority was informed about the program of guns freely running into Mexico

This program was nothing more than an attempt to increase the flow of guns from US gun dealers, down south into the hands of mexican drug
cartels. the true reasons for this, and who authorized it , is still unknown, but it's a pretty easy guess, once you start connecting dots.

[Katya Mullethov]

5. "These are not the felons you are looking for "