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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 09:49 PM
Original message
1 out of 21,880
ONE gun out of 21,880 were used last year to murder someone!

So, if I under the PRO Gun Control logic correctly, they want to remove 192 MILLION guns from law abiding citizens because 8,775 of them were used to murder someone.

Only 0.0046% of the guns owned in the USA were used to murder someone. Or we could say 99.9954% were not used to murder someone.

Wow, it sounds like maybe the LAST thing the Dems should be worried about is Gun Control.

The more we raise the issue, the more money the NRA raises and uses against Democrats nationwide.

Stop fighting a losing battle.

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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. But Momma
He loves me !
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Kennah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. Without gun politics, the NRA would transform
Focus would shift back into range development, marksmanship, training, competitions, hunter safety, insurance, and the like.

Without the politics, the RW crazies would flee the NRA. No money to be made in marksmanship. NRA would become as boring as AAA.
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Excellent points. The NRA loves having the Dems to raise money on.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. And that would be a bad thing because? nt
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Kennah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. My bad if I implied it would be a bad thing. It would not.
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. bingo.
this should be as big a non-issue for Dems as abortion should be a non-issue for Reubs. these two issues have contributed more than any 2 other issues in the divisiveness of this nation and have polarized the two parties to a point where I no longer recognize either one.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. It makes firearm registration look pretty inefficient too
since registration would track the movements of every gun made - forever - in the hope of catching criminals with a fraction of a fraction of the guns used in crime.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. So how's that registration working out in Canada?
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I don't pay much attention to Canada but I expect so. nt
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. Believe it or not, people do bad things with guns even when the ultimate result is not murder.
Edited on Thu Oct-13-11 11:02 PM by Hoyt

Sorry, the "battle" is worth it even if it means some folks will have to suck it up and venture into public without gun(s) strapped to their body.
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Explain how you even BEGIN to stop gun sales! I will be waiting!
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Remmah2 Donating Member (971 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. People do bad things (period).
Of all the firearms out there what percentage actually carry them in public? .0000000000001%?

How many strap them on? Besides, a firearm in the hands is worth two in the holster.

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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. And occasionally one of those people with legal "gun(s)" strapped to their body ...
uses their weapon to stop a criminal attempting to do something bad with his gun.

Of course, you feel that is a terrible thing and the criminal should just be allowed to rape, pillage and plunder his innocent victims.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. Respectfully, a correction...



"Sorry, the 'battle' is worth it even if it means some folks will have to suck it up and venture into public without ."

I mean, it is your prohibitionist world where nothing else seems to matters.

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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
13. When did "gun control"
become "remove 192 million guns from law abiding citizens?" The Democratic Party platform says no such thing, and no Democrats that I know are calling for total prohibition of guns. Aside from a few radical groups most Americans are not asking for a total ban on all guns in any way, shape, or form.

To put this into a little more perspective, the majority of Americans have no problem with eligible citizens having legal guns in their homes, or in other designated areas (ranges, hunting, etc.). A large percentage of Americans, however, are questioning the necessity of the public carry of firearms in any manner and for any purpose whatsoever.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. A large percentage? Then why had CCW spread to all states but one.?
A large percentage? No state with CCW has seen a movement to repeal CCW.

Your large percentage is a tiny percentage.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. If a large percentage of Americans oppose the public carry of firearms ...
they must not vote. Either that or a much larger percentage of the population who does vote supports the carry of firearms in public. Currently only one state totally forbids its citizens from legally carrying firearms.

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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. How many people
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 11:31 AM by billh58
actually carry guns in public in those States which permit it? A "large percentage?" I did not say that a large percentage of Americans are against public carry, I actually said that a large percentage of Americans are questioning the necessity for public carry anywhere, by anyone, at anytime. I am one of them, and I know many more.

There were many states that made all forms of abortion illegal before RvW, and legally practiced racial and sexual bigotry before the Civil Rights Act, so State law is not etched in stone. The SCOTUS has not interpreted 2A with respect to widespread public carry, and Heller indicated that they at least recognized the reasons for historical restrictions on public carry.

The point I was attempting to make in my initial post was that this "the sky is falling" clamor about Democrats wishing to take away ALL guns from everyone is bullshit put out by the "cold dead hands" faction of the NRA, and parroted by right-wingers and Libertarians. Absolutely nothing in the Democratic Party platform has ever advocated a total prohibition on firearms, but only reasonable restrictions which Heller reaffirmed. Bashing the Democratic Party with lies and half-truths is best left to Republicans, Libertarians, and some "Independents."
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. how do you define reasonable
and how are current federal laws not reasonable?
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Renewing the AWB amounts to a total prohibition on the sale of new, modern firearms.
Unacceptable.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I don't think you appreciate the entrenched nature of gun-control advocates...
After Obama was in office, both A.G. Holder and House Speaker Pelosi advocated reinstatement and strengthening the so-called assault weapons ban. Putting a prohibition on what has become the most popular center-fire rifle in the U.S. is not a "reasonable restriction." If you recall the history of gun bans, there was an attempt to ban both pump and auto-loading shotguns in the field as injurious to wildlife preservation and enforcement of game laws. Those "reasonable restrictions" were ditched as having little relevancy to those issues, and those types of shotguns are now the firearm of choice for water fowling and upland bird hunting. Similarly, the AR 15, AK 47 platforms are poised to become the new deer rifle in the U.S., and many re-chambered models are being made and sold to hunters. Within my lifetime, I believe the semi-auto carbine WILL become the rifle of choice for American big-game hunting, and home defense.

I believe the SCOTUS only said that its decision did not imply or suggest that other restrictions were ipso facto unconstitutional or not; only that it was deciding Heller on its limited terms. In other words, other restrictions were not being considered.
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. All of the responses to my
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 02:51 PM by billh58
second post are honest arguments and opinions, but do not address my primary response to the OP: the Democratic Party does not advocate the prohibition of ALL firearms and never has. The continued spewing of that lie is right-wing propaganda pure and simple.

The definition of "reasonable" is highly subjective, and depends on the amount of willingness to compromise one brings to the table. The estimated 200,000,000 guns in the USA are owned by less than a third of its citizens, so the definition of what is the "most popular" is also subjective.

Heller recognized that prior restrictions on concealed carry in public, and regulations pertaining to certain types of firearms were based on established precedent which have been repeatedly upheld, and then went on to directly point out that nothing in the Heller decision addressed those particular issues. They added that there were "adequate remedies" available to address the problem of handgun violence by the District (and other local jurisdictions).
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. So is an AWB "reasonable?"
Some 17,000,000 semi-auto carbines have been sold in this country. In terms of sales, it is the "most popular" center-fire rifle sold in this country. Only the rim-fired .22 sells more. It is difficult to get by objective numbers -- like sales. Add in the appearance of these arms at the range (they are prolific at shooting ranges) and in the field (hunting), and you can get a sense that there is a fundamental shift in how Americans are buying long-guns. In short, the bolt-action rifle (itself a popularized military rifle following both the Spanish American War and World War I) awaits its retirement from the field in favor of the new kid on the block.

Frankly, If I were younger, I would acquire one of the AK/AR platforms, suitable for hunting. I don't find it "reasonable" to restrict what is now becoming the "Ford-Chevy" gun of Americans, for hunting and home defense.
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. I don't disagree with
your logic, but I believe that the problem lies in semantics: how is an "assault weapon" accurately defined in such a way that we are all talking about the same thing?

I have seen varying definitions of the term here in the gungeon, and it appears that people are genuinely confused as to what an assault weapon actually looks like, walks like, and talks like. From my military experience many years ago, I believe an assault weapon to be one which holds multi-round clips and is capable of fully automatic fire, and is not suitable for civilian use. On the other hand, a semi-automatic, multi-round weapon of any type or caliber should be suitable for civilian sports shooting (hunting and marksmanship) and home defense.

Public carry? Not so much.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. outside of Teabag protests
and California (or high school students going to rifle club at school) who public carries rifles in town? Not where I'm from, and I'm from Hicksville, Wyoming. That said:
The technical term for a select fire rifle like the M-16 is assault rifle. The technical term for an assault weapon is a tank or rocket launcher. An "assault weapon" is a semi automatic carbine that looks like an assault rifle (not to be confused with semi automatic battle rifles such as the FN/FAL or the M1 Garand. The M-14 may also be in this class even though IIRC, they are select fire.)
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. Actually, most pro-2A folks are pretty well-grounded on the definition...
of an "assault rifle:" A carbine capable of firing a medium power round on full-auto or "select fire." The term "assault weapon," is a term of art to describe clones or knock-offs of "assault rifles," which can only fire semi-automatically. Those who argue for gun-control/prohibition continue to confuse and conflate (by intent, I believe) the definitions in order to promote a gun-ban agenda. Time and time again, attempts have been made by pro-2A folks to delineate between the two firearm types, but the "confusion" is entrenched with the controller/banner, and will not be budged. Josh Sugarmann, founder of the Violence Policy Center:

"Assault weapons—just like armor-piercing bullets, machine guns, and plastic firearms—are a new topic. The weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons—anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun—can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons. In addition, few people can envision a practical use for these weapons." See footnote in the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Sugarmann

This brazen dishonesty not only confused the public, but set the tone for the poor ethical quality of debate proffered by gun-control/banners.

I'm not hot on public carry, either. My position is that the residents of any state should have the option of at least one method of carry (as in Right to Keep and Bear Arms), but not to exclude both concealed and open-carry, as California has done.
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. As evidenced by another
Edited on Sat Oct-15-11 02:16 PM by billh58
post by me on this thread, I too was confused about the definition, so thanks much for the education. I just assumed that any rifle with the designation of "assault" would be capable of fully-automatic fire. Being a child of the 60's, I'm not big on "banning" anything, but age has taught me that some forms of regulation and moderation are necessary for our own good (speed limits, sobriety levels, one-way streets, stop-lights, etc.).

I notice that you make reference to "pro-2A folks" which appears to mean as opposed to those of us who fully support 2A in the home and other designated areas, but not all forms of public carry, by anyone, at any time, for any purpose. I have finally come to grips with the probability of more widespread concealed public carry, and I suppose that I'll just have to live with that. The beauty of the practice is that I'll likely never be aware of it unless some idiot accidentally drops one, or shoots his pecker off.

I believe that the use of terms such as "pro-2A" and "anti-2A" completely overlooks those of us who are looking for some reassurances that those who choose to own and carry deadly weapons, do so responsibly. A stranger with a concealed gun, remains a stranger with a concealed gun, whether they are a good guy, or a bad guy.

On the other hand, a stranger behind the wheel of an oncoming automobile, or walking down the street with a gun, at least gives one the opportunity drive or walk defensively. Defensive driving is widely taught -- defensive walking, not so much. Most of us have either seen, or been involved in, episodes of road rage and it is easy to compare that phenomenon with instances of "gun rage" that we read about occasionally. Some of the vitriol spewed by "pro-2A" zealots I read on this forum on a daily basis make me wonder about their mental state at times.

I further believe that if more gun advocates would take the time to patiently explain (like you have) the benefits and safety measures associated with legal weapons, there would be less resistance from average Americans like myself. As I mentioned previously, my only reservations with avid gunners have dealt with public carry, and not with ownership, marksmanship, hunting, or home defense.

The time has come to get rid of the artificially introduced animosity and confrontational diatribes which permeate not only this forum, but the rest of the country. Education is a wonderful thing and if applied properly can overcome irrational, emotionally-based posturing.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. I share your concerns, and thanks for your respectful reply. nt
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. A small percentage actually carry regularly firearms, but a higher percentage ...,.
have carry permits or wish to have the right to carry if they ever feel that in a certain situation it is a good idea.

Probably the reason you, and others like you, are questioning firearm carry is the negative publicity generated by the open carry movement in states like California or at the Tea Party rallies. It has been my opinion that if you live in a state where open carry is legal but unusual, openly carrying a holstered handgun or a rifle slung across your back in an urban area can generate almost as much negative attention as pulling your pants down and mooning people.

I can and do carry a handgun all day and everywhere I go. No one knows or cares. In Florida, I have to have a carry permit and my weapon has to be concealed. Out of sight, out of mind.

Many gun owners will agree that those who want more gun control do not currently want to take away all guns but there is a significant percentage who would love to see civilian firearm ownership banned in the end. Today they would love to require all firearms to be registered. A decade after that was accomplished, an excuse could be found to ban and confiscate certain firearms such as semi-auto rifles that have features similar to current military firearms. Eventually an effort would be made to prohibit the ownership of all small handguns. Sometime far in the future the Second Amendment would be history and all Americans would be forbidden the right to own firearms of any type.

In other words those who want to see draconian gun control fully realize that in order to achieve their goal it is necessary to take small incremental steps. As the Chinese philosopher Lao-tzu said, "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

Quotes are fun. Let's examine a few more on gun control:

"BANNING GUNS IS AN IDEA WHOSE TIME HAS COME"
U.S. Senator Joseph Biden 11/18/93 Associated Press

"If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an out right ban, picking up every one of them... "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in,
"I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren't here."

--U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), CBS-TV's "60 Minutes," 2/5/95

"We're going to hammer guns on the anvil of relentless legislative strategy! We're going to beat guns into submission!"
-U.S. Representative Charles Schumer, Democrat from New York, quoted on NBC, December 8, 1993

"Our goal is to not allow anybody to buy a handgun. In the meantime, we think there ought to be strict licensing and regulation. Ultimately, that may mean it would require court approval to buy a handgun."
-- Michael K. Beard, President of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence


"Mr. President, what is going on in this country? Does going to school mean exposure to handguns and to death? As you know, my position is we should ban all handguns, get rid of them, no manufacture, no sale, no importation, no transportation, no possession of a handgun . There are 66 million handguns in the United States of America today, with 2 million being added every year."
--- Senator John H. Chafee, Rhode Island (June 11, 1992, Congressional Record, 102nd Congress, 1991-1992)


And it is not just liberal Democrats who oppose gun ownership:

"Twenty years ago, I asked Richard Nixon what he thought of gun control. His on-the-record reply: 'Guns are an abomination.' Free from fear of gun owners' retaliation at the polls, he favored making handguns illegal and requiring licenses for hunting rifles. - William Safire, LA Daily News, 6/15/99.

***

The above quotes came from the era when gun control was very popular. That era has ended and now it would be political suicide for any politician to suggest banning all firearms. That doesn't mean that the idea of banning all firearms is dead. That just means that those who support such dreams are willing to be patient.

You personally may not want to see all firearms banned. You may just be opposed to allowing honest, sane and responsible people to carry them in public. I personally disagree with your viewpoint as I have a carry permit and I am also one of the small percentage that does carry a concealed weapon on a regular basis.

I can see a benefit in improving some existing firearm laws such as the NICS background check and I also realize that in order to be effective, existing laws must be enforced. I will support such efforts.

However, I have a LONG memory as many gun owners do and we will not forget that a few years ago our right to own firearms was threatened. We realize that it can happen again.

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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Thank you for the
Edited on Fri Oct-14-11 04:25 PM by billh58
reasonable response, and for taking the time to explain your position. With the exception of two combat tours in Vietnam, I have never felt the need to carry a firearm for defensive purposes. And at 70 years of age, I have never known anyone who wasn't in law enforcement who carried a gun in public. I have never seen anyone carrying a gun in public, except on TV (and I concede that I would not have known about someone carrying concealed).

I am aware that some Democrats have called for drastic (in my opinion) gun control measures but they do not represent the whole of the Democratic Party, its platform, or even most Democrats. I take exception when someone repeats a lie, or a half-truth, to make it appear that the Democratic Party and its members want to take away legal guns from citizens who are otherwise eligible to own and carry them.

Unfortunately, guns are a part of American culture, and their misuse has led to what amounts to an arms race between social misfits and solid citizens. I don't have a viable answer to the dilemma, but I don't have to like or agree with the direction we're taking by advocating the proliferation of guns in public, and arming everyone in order to "level the playing field."

There are two sayings which come to mind: "the best defense is a good offense," and "discretion is the better part of valor." The latter has always served me well.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. I have no problem with your opposition to citizens carrying firearms ...
I happen to disagree but this would be a very boring world if everybody agreed on everything.

I'm sure many politicians regret some of the comments that they made in the past in support of truly draconian gun control. That includes Republicans like John McCain. Many gun owners were unenthusiastic about McCain becoming President and possibly with good reason. McCain has a lifetime C+ rating from the NRA. That's hardly a glowing endorsement.

The NRA is a moderate organization when compared with the GOA (Gun Owners of America). The GOA gives McCain the lowest rating possible.


Gun Owners of America

Gun Owners of America (GOA) is a gun rights organization in the United States with over 300,000 members.<1> They make efforts to differentiate themselves from the larger National Rifle Association (NRA), and have publicly criticized the NRA on multiple occasions for what the GOA considers to be the selling out of the gun rights movement.

The organization has often been in opposition to the NRA in their respective endorsements and ratings of politicians and candidates. For instance, the GOA was outspoken in its opposition to John McCain's 2008 presidential bid, describing his gun-rights voting record as "abysmal, wretched, and pathetic"<2> and rating him with an F- on Second Amendment issues since 2004 as opposed to the NRA's (through its PAC, the NRA-PVF) C+ rating of McCain.<3> The GOA took issue with the NRA over the 2007 NICS Improvement Act.<4>...emphasis added

They have been described by Congressman Ron Paul as "The only no-compromise gun lobby in Washington." This quote from Paul has long been displayed front and center on the homepage of the Gun Owners of America website, and Paul was the only 2008 Presidential candidate to gain an A+ rating from Gun Owners of America.<5>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Owners_of_America


In my opinion the last presidential election was not close enough for gun owners to have put McCain into office had he had their enthusiastic support, but it might have been closer.

Mitt Romney may also find getting support from gun owners difficult as he has expressed support for the assault weapon ban and other very restrictive gun laws.


Political positions of Mitt Romney

***snip***

Gun control

Romney has said "I support the right of individuals to keep and bear arms as guaranteed under the U.S. Constitution,"<45> though in past campaigns he has described himself as a proponent of gun control, and he fully supports a ban on assault weapons.<46>

For Romney's 1994 US Senate campaign, he supported the Brady Bill, which imposed a five-day waiting period on gun sales, and a ban on particular semi-automatic rifles.<46> In a 2002 debate during Romney's campaign for governor of Massachusetts, Romney said: "We do have tough gun laws in Massachusetts; I support them. I won't chip away at them; I believe they protect us and provide for our safety."<47> As governor, Romney signed a 2004 measure instituting a permanent Massachusetts ban on military style assault weapons, to take the place of a Federal ban, which was then about to expire. The bill made Massachusetts the first state to enact its own such ban on specific semi-automatic weapons and some shotguns with specific accessories, and Romney supported the law with the comment: "These guns are not made for recreation or self-defense. They are instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people."<48> As Governor Romney extended the term of firearm licenses from four to six years, reinstated a 90-day grace period for citizens renewing their gun licenses, and signed a law providing free replacement licenses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Mitt_Romney#Gun_control


Our backgrounds differ. I live in Florida where "shall issue" concealed carry has existed since 1987 and there are currently over 850,000 valid concealed weapons permits issued by the state. Consequently, I know a considerable number of people who have such permits. I understand why a person who lives in an area where very few civilians legally carry weapons would have reservations about the practice. Back in 1987 when "shall issue" concealed carry passed in Florida, I fully suspected that there would be a lot of unnecessary shootings generated by the fact that people were legally packing heat. The predictions of a return to the Wild West with shootouts at every intersection and on Main Street at high noon never materialized. Reality is often boring.

Many of the regular shooters at the pistol range I shot at when I lived in the Tampa Bay area had carry permits and carried on a regular basis. Some were retired police or military but many were just regular citizens from many walks of life. Most carried small very compact handguns for self defense probably because it's hard to conceal a large handgun during the hot temperatures during most of the year.

Only three of the people I knew who had carry permits had used their concealed weapon in self defense.

One worked as a locksmith and a person with a knife attempted to rob him in a bad area of town late at night while he was working. The locksmith drew his compact .22 S&W revolver from its belt holster and the situation ended peacefully without any shots fired.

One of my co-workers was in downtown Tampa on a cold Sunday morning with a friend using metal detectors to search a vacant lot after a building had been torn down. A man who appeared high or drunk and was armed with a large knife walked up, threatened the two individuals and demanded their money. My friend pulled his jacked open and revealed his .45 auto in a shoulder holster and the attacker turned and walked off muttering to himself.

Another co-worker was driving to work on the graveyard shift when he managed to piss off another driver. When they both pulled up to an intersection, the person who was suffering from road rage got out of his car and approached my co-workers car with a tire iron. My co-worker drew his 9mm Star semi-auto pistol and laid it in his hand across his steering wheel where the attacker could see it. He did and he returned to his car and everything ended peacefully. My co-worker told me that he would have merely jumped the red light and drove off had he not had a car in front of him, one beside him and a deep ditch on the passenger's side of his car.

My daughter who has a concealed carry permit attracted the attentions of a stalker and despite a restraining order, this individual persisted in harassing her wherever she went. While he had a criminal record that included violence and drunkenness, the stalker never really attempted to attack my daughter. If he had and my daughter would have felt that he threatened her health or her life, she would have shot him without hesitation. The fact that she was armed meant that she was able to view the stalker as an irritating pain in the ass and was not terrified of him. The stalker was also following one of my daughter's friends who did live in fear of his attacking her. It took a lot of effort to get this lady to get a restraining order as she feared that this might cause him to attack. Eventually the stalker was arrested and had to spend several weekends in jail. The judge threatened him with a year in prison if he continued his activity. He appears to have learned a valuable lesson. My daughter hasn't seen him recently and it is possible that he moved to a different city. I doubt if he ever suspected that my daughter was armed.

Back in the 1920s my mother was walking home from work when he was rushed by an attacker who had been hiding behind some bushes. She drew a .22 caliber S&W LadySmith revolver from her purse and fired two shots over the attacker's head. He ran. My mother was an expert shot and could have easily hit the individual but she felt all is well that ends well. She kept the little revolver as a a cherished item. Of course I found it and played with it. The box it was in contained some ammo and I know that I loaded it. I don't remember ever trying to fire the revolver but if I had, it would not have worked as my father had wisely removed the firing pin. My father opposed firearm ownership and refused to have a working firearm in the house. Interestingly, he had shot handguns in his youth and even carrying one during WWII when he worked as an investigator for Navel Intelligence.

I didn't get a carry license for many years after the law passed and I did so when my of my co-workers suggested that since I legally carried a loaded revolver in my car when I went to work on the graveyard shift, it might make it a lot easier for me if I was pulled over for speeding. Eventually the neighborhood I lived in went downhill to the point that while I didn't feel that I would ever need to use my concealed weapon for self defense, it was a possibility.

Originally, I tried to carry a .45 auto, but it was uncomfortable and a pain in the ass to have to put on a holster when I was only going to a local store. My Colt .45 usually stayed behind. Finally I wised up and decided to buy a very light S&W snub nosed .38 caliber revolver which is designed to be a pocket pistol. On my way out the door, I grab this little revolver and its pocket holster, slide both into my pants pocket and I am off. It's so light that I hardly realize that I have it with me.

I doubt if I ever will have a reason to use it and hope that I never will, but if I do it's right there in my pocket. The first rule of a gun fight is to have a gun.





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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. So your plan to prevent criminals from carrying guns is???????? (waiting)
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. If either one
of us had the answer to that question, we wouldn't be having this conversation. My only argument with your OP is that the Democratic Party does NOT advocate the prohibition of ALL guns, and that has never appeared in the DNC platform.

As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, some Democrats have called for an outright ban on all guns, but they do not speak for the Democratic Party, or most Democrats. Repeating a right-wing lie on a Democratic discussion board does nothing to further your cause, and only alienates those who would otherwise agree with you on most (but not all) points.

Peace...
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. OK, but we are the anti-gun party and it has hurt our side more than helped it.
I think many blue-collar voters believe we want to take their guns away. It costs us votes.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #28
37. How many books (guns) banned does it take, before it becomes wrong? N/T
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Starboard Tack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. Hey Logical, interesting name. I assume you aspire to being logical
Let's see if we can give you a leg up on that ladder.
First, you forgot Lesson 1 - Guns don't commit murder, people who use them do.
How many owners are there?
How many of those owners tote in public?
What makes you think the Dems are worried about gun control?
I think you are worried about gun control.
Most of us are concerned about handgun proliferation, not gun control.
Most of us are tired of seeing assholes use guns to solve problems.
Why would we be worried about something that obviously doesn't work.
As JFK said "Ask not what your country can do for you...etc."
Figure out the answer as your first assignment in logic.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
32. it's truly sad that anyone can "understand" anything so badly
Isn't it?
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Explain the Anti-Gun position to me. I will be waiting.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. don't catch a chill
I wouldn't know what "the Anti-Gun position" was if it showed up at my door naked and playing the trombone.

About all I can think of to explain to you is how to stop playing the fool.

Let me know if you need instructions.
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-11 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I believe you wouldn't know anything.
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. Meanwhile ,
at the Cracker Barrel ..... on Jimmy Carter Blvd .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ib221mvrK4
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. Guns kill, scare, and intimidate people....
See I'll do what the anti's won't...


I put it in plain English. :) why won't they?
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Starboard Tack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. Why don't you tell us what you think it is?
I haven't encountered too many who identify with the term "Anti-Gun". Anti-NRA maybe, anti-toting maybe, anti-gun control maybe.
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