Bowling for Columbine out on DVD Tuesday, read this

[Barney Gumble]

well done point by point rebuttal about the rightards claims about the movie:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/8/12/171427/607

[Um_Yeah]

1. .

Repukes, they either try to portray him as a Commie or a money hungry crazy person.

[Superfly]

2. I will not be

renting or buying this movie.

[mike_c]

3. well I certainly will....

eom

[Um_Yeah]

4. Did you already d/l it?

[TexasMexican]

65. I did.

Juarez all the way baby.

[Old and In the Way]

5. Just saw it...very powerful and very disturbing.

I thought the scene with Dick Clark was illuminating. Guess I won't look at Dick in the same light again.

The B-52 bomber memorial was particularly strange. Is it no wonder when Lockheed Martin is building missles of mass destruction and we venerate bombers for killing people that the message sent to impressionable young minds is that killing is OK?

Very interesting interviews with the Canadians....I think the fear factor of home invasion is an interesting aspect to the question as to why we have so many gun deaths in this country. I guess I think like a Canadian...no guns and I don't lock my doors at night.

I also watched the extra content. The book signing when he hugged one of the victims at Columbine was pretty powerful real life drama.

[Lefty48197]

67. I noticed a recurring theme in the film

that is that people kept breaking down and crying when they were recalling the events (whether it was Columbine, Flint, or whatevery). Michael was always comforting those close to the victims. Quite a contrast to Hestons response, ie to hold pro gun rallies in the shadow of the funeral processions.

[Lefty48197]

66. Aren't you glad the Republicans got that Reagan movie censored?

That way you won't have to listen to that liberal stuff either.

[samsingh]

6. i have looked all around for this release

that would be great news.

[MrBenchley]

7. Great website

and the rebuttal clearly shows the underhanded and fraudulent charges the RKBA crowd have repeatedly made against Moore.

[wwwunspunmediaorg]

8. Please.........

Lets face it. Moore may be funny, but his recent book "Stupid White Men" as well as his movie are both riddled with errors. However, any book as partisan as his will be. Michael Moore is essentially the equivelant of Rush Limbaugh. They're both overweight, loud, strictly partisan, and deceptive to the extreme. People just listen to them to have their views reinforced. Moore is just preaching to the choir.

[MrBenchley]

9. Please go up to General Discussion

and peddle this rubbish.

As we've seen from the weblink, Moore's so-called "errors" are mostly outright lies.

[Spoonman]

10. I guess his scene

of obtaining the deer rifle in the bank, that he admitted to having "pre-arranged" was an outright lie?

He's a fat pompous pig that that feeds from the same trough of greed and deceit as Rush Limbaugh.

[MrBenchley]

12. Go peddle it to someone dumb enough to believe it

There was no lie in that scene. Was the bank idiotically handing out guns? Yup.

[Spoonman]

36. You must be joking

Please don't tell us you actually believe what you see in the movies.


Michael Moore is a fat slob that preys on the emotions of genuinely concerned people for his own financial gain.
It should have been called Michael Moore’s Bowling for Dollars.

http://www.dvdmoviecentral.com/ReviewsText/bowling_for_columbine.htm

Bowling opens with a terrific vignette that became famously touted by critics promoting the movie. Moore walks into a bank that is holding an unusual promotion: open an account with them with a minimum deposit, and you get a hunting rifle. It seemed too outrageous to be true…but we follow Moore in with his cameras, and sure enough…after filling out the paperwork and plopping down his money, the bank presents him with his new gun. They are a licensed gun dealership in addition to being a bank, they inform him. Moore’s excellent final question: “Do you think it’s a good idea to be handing out guns in a bank?”
We laugh, and so we don’t think about the fact that Moore cut after his question so that there is no answer. As it turns out, the entire incident was staged. True, the bank was running that promotion, but they weren’t giving out the guns. Customers received vouchers in order to collect their hunting rifles at a participating dealer!
According to a column by Roger Ebert of the Chicago Sun-Times (and I should point out that Mr. Ebert is normally a lauder of Moore’s work),
“Jan Jacobson, the bank employee who worked with Mr. Moore on his account, says that only happened because Mr. Moore’s film company had worked for a month to stage the scene. ‘What happened at the bank was a prearranged thing,’ she says. The gun was brought from a gun dealer in another city, where it would normally have to be picked up. ‘Typically, you're looking at a week to 10 days waiting period,’ she says.”
Why would Moore circumvent the truth that way? Well, no question that it makes for better footage. Who would care if he walked out of the bank with a voucher instead of a gun? But he crosses the line between arranging a good shot (no pun intended) and self-aggrandizement when he poses a fake question at the end and is forced to cut away from the answer because the answer would give away his scheme.

Here are some more truths about this “documentary” .

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

[MrBenchley]

39. Gee spoon

Don't you wonder why there isn't a link to that Roger Ebert column?

Here's Ebert's actual review...

http://www.suntimes.com/ebert/ebert_reviews/2002/10/101803.html

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15419

[Spoonman]

41. Gee

Maybe he did more than one review, I doubt dvdmoviecentral.com would print that without it being fact. Ebert would probably have already sued them out of existence for liable and slander by now.
To add to it, there are probably 200 more sites out there with the same info on them.

The fact remains, the movie was fiction at best.

[Terran]

42. I'm honestly curious

Are there any other parts of the film where the facts are stretched in this manner? Or does this one scene make the whole film "fictional" for you? Note that I have not seen it, I am 100% ignorant about it and about Moore, I have not read any of his books.

Dirk

[Spoonman]

43. There were,

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

http://www.moorelies.com/

These are only a couple.
There are multiple places on the web that this information is available.

His biggest fan is himself. He cares nothing about the issues he portrays as being important. He cares only to stir the emotions that line his wallet.

I honestly believe he is one of the biggest reasons for the “riding the fence” voter. He and his supporters stigmatize the Democratic Party as being shameless and dishonest in their attempt to push their agendas.

This turns those fence riders, and many “conservative democrats”, around into voting for the republicans so that they will not be associated with the likes of him.
If we support dishonesty and deceit ourselves, we have no right to complain about the dishonesty and deceit of the “other side”.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lefty48197]

69. Right wingers in the NRA call this film lies

Normal people don't.

[MrBenchley]

45. Go up to post #1 and click on the link

and you'll find, no surprise, that the claims of Moore lying are themselves a load of hooey.

[Spoonman]

47. Please don't

tell us that shit don't stink.

The shit is stacked so high in that article it should be called Mt Mary Rosh Moore.

The whole thing is riddled with blatant BS such as;
"normally" picked up at another dealer. It is not explained what "normally" is supposed to mean"

Normally would mean ANYONE not making fucking movie ya think?

"Typically, you're looking at a week to 10 days waiting period." This is plausible -- but entirely irrelevant for the movie"

Horse Shit it was irrelevant, the whole point to the scene was to demonstrate that he could walk in and walk out with a gun.
If that was not possible, then why attempt to demonstrate it is.
It was pre-arranged and a blatant lie period.

"There is nothing inaccurate whatsoever about the bank scene."

Other than the fact that it NEVER happened in real life, the way it was shown in the movie.

"Yes, Moore makes this point through slight exaggeration"

You mean he fucking lied.

So I guess we can just accept Lott's numbers, cause he make's his point through slight exaggeration.

Sorry to accept one without accepting them all would be hypocritical!!

This is just "moore" bullshit from a support group for Moore, or more than likely from fat ass himself.
He was on National TV not long ago when he addmitted to the "slight exaggeration" bank scene and others by stating "hey, it's entertainment".

He's a piece of shit, and his garbage is as smelly as Lott's.

[MrBenchley]

49. Who are you trying to kid?

Do you know the difference between SCIENCE and ENTERTAINMENT?

The RKBA crowd is beginning to sound like a parody of itself. Was the bank giving out guns? Yes.

[Spoonman]

52. More spin

You bet I know the difference between science and entertainment. What has science got to do with this fictitious movie? Why even bring that argument into the conversation?

Having trouble staying focused, or just trying to maintain the status quo of when caught, change the subject?

Read your own posts, and see how hard you attempt to alter your own statements.

Bowling for Bullshit is the topic at hand, and the idiot Michael fat ass Moore.

[MrBenchley]

53. YOUR spin

"You bet I know the difference between science and entertainment. What has science got to do with this fictitious movie? Why even bring that argument into the conversation?"
YOU are the one who dragged John Lott and his gun nut pseudoscience into the discussion, spoon. Not me.

[Lefty48197]

68. Why did the teller tell Mike that they had several guns in stock?

Was the teller in on the "lie"?

[Lefty48197]

72. Your link is to some very lame attempts at discrediting Moore

At least the first one is. I'm guessing that the second one is just as lame, but could it possibly be as lame as the first one? It sounds like the DVDMovieReview was written by Trent Lott himself.

[Spoonman]

37. To add to this

The bank is/was not a licensed dealer, the act in question would be considered a felony offense.

[MrBenchley]

38. Are you REALLY claiming now

that the bank in the film was NOT giving away firearms?

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15419

[Spoonman]

40. No

The bank was giving away firearms.
They were not handing them out at the bank.
Many banks also give out sets of knives.
They can give away anything they want, big deal.
The issue here was the way it was portrayed as walk in, open account, walk out with a gun. That was a blatant lie.
Even though it was a blatant lie you wish to use it to support your stance on the issue.
On the other hand you criticize Lott for “lies”.
The only fact here, is they both lied in an attempt to validate their position.
Therefor they are both (to borrow your term) scum.

[MrBenchley]

44. So in other words

Moore was acccurate and you're desperately trying to spin it away....

"Many banks also give out sets of knives.
They can give away anything they want, big deal."
Now when was the last time somebody robbed a bank with a steak knife?

[Spoonman]

48. That's not the point,

you know it, so quit trying to divert the fact that the whole bank scene was bullshit.

It's a fact of life that what you see in the movies is staged to reflect the producers/directors views.

It's not my fault your having difficulty distinguishing the difference between the big screen and reality.

If there is any spinning going on, it’s you trying to spin shit into shinola.

You cannot honestly say that Moore went into that bank, and walked out with that rifle on the same day he opened the account.
Mandatory waiting periods and dealers going to jail for violation of those laws prohibit ANY logical person from believing that bank would allow a felony to be filmed. Here’s another little fact, if Moore did do what he attempts to portray, he’s guilty of unlawful possession of a firearm, thus a criminal himself.
He had to pre-arrange the whole thing, or we would have been reading about all the arrests.

[MrBenchley]

50. Spoon, go peddle that to somebody dumb enough to buy it

"You cannot honestly say that Moore went into that bank, and walked out with that rifle on the same day"
Spoon, the film ITSELF doesn't say that. It CLEARLY says there is a waiting period.

"Here’s another little fact, if Moore did do what he attempts to portray, he’s guilty of unlawful possession of a firearm, thus a criminal himself."
Jeeze, could you spin just a little more desperately? Perhaps you can call for him to be arrested for darinng to profane against gun dealers....

"He had to pre-arrange the whole thing"
Du-u-u-uh...... Do you know ANYTHING about film making? Did you think he was just wandering along the street when he bumped into a stranger with a movie camera and another with sound equipment?

I swear.....you guys are starting to sound like parodies of yourselves. Next you're going to tell us the film was edited to make it's point....

[Spoonman]

51. Man...

did you back peddle quick from your initial response.

The you keep trying to spin some BS about RKBA people the worse you look.

[MrBenchley]

54. Nobody's back peddling, spoon

Go up to thread number one and you'll see clearly there's a waiting period mentioned in the film.

"some BS about RKBA people"
AS far as I can see, RKBA people are nothing BUT BS, from top to bottom.

Did the bank give away firearms? Yes. Does the film clearly say there's a waiting period? Yes. Is the RKBA crowd lying? You betcha.

[Terwilliger]

62. he admitted to having pre-arranged it?

I'll bet that's news to him.

I've heard him say on many occasions that the events in the bank happened just about as he filmned it.

Do you have proof to the contrary?

[Terwilliger]

61. Please......provide anything other than your opinion...

to back up your claim that Moore's works are "riddled with errors".

Something more than hardylaw.net

[-..__...]

11. Are you certain Michael Moore directed "Bowling for Columbine?

I'm pretty sure it was Leni Riefenstahl.

[MrBenchley]

13. No it's the RKBA crowd that has that Nazi fetish

"I attended the Silverado Gun Show in Upper Marlboro, MD, with Mike, a fellow intern at the Brady Campaign. Maryland actually does require background checks at gun shows, so things were not as crazy as they could be-in other states, dealers advertise "no questions asked, no background check necessary" at their booths.
The "Sons of Confederate Veterans" ran a table near the entrance. (Contrary to their name, none of the men at the booth appeared to be pushing 140 years old.) One could purchase bumper stickers that read "I Salute the Confederate Flag, and All It Stands For." (Which would be...?)
If you prefer your hate groups a little more repulsive, Nazi memorabilia was also available among the dealers' tables on the floor. One table had two apparently authentic World War II-era German army helmets, complete with Nazi insignias proudly displayed."

http://groups.northwestern.edu/protest/may2002/medlock.html

"The German party symbols were in one building at a gun show attended by thousands of people at the Los Angeles County fairgrounds. A sponsor said there were 8,000 exhibitors at the event. Outside, an Issa for Senate table displayed literature for his 1998 campaign. "These are the things that are on display at gun shows like this," said Carroll Wills, a spokesman for the group calling itself Taxpayers Against the Governor's Recall, according to the Sacramento Bee. "It's not to suggest necessarily that Congressman Issa is himself a Nazi sympathizer. However, I think that there are an awful lot of politicians who would eschew the idea of participating in any event where that type of flag is shown.""

http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/insider/archives/000163.html

"My favorite part of the gun show actually had nothing to do with guns. One booth had dozens of bumper stickers with various racist and sexist epithets that even I didn’t think were funny. Two of them stuck out, however. One read, “I have a dream” and had a Confederate flag flying over the White House; the real jewel, though, was one that read, “The Original Boyz in the Hood,” with a picture of three hooded Ku Klux Klan members.
So let’s review: this guy is anti-King, pro-Klan and pro-slavery. Lovely. It’s a good thing the Union won the War of Northern Aggression, or he might be in charge right now.
Fortunately – for my entertainment, at least – he was not an anomaly. The more subtle bigots hawked Nazi memorabilia under the guise of historical hobbyists. The reverence these “collectors” seemed to have for Hitler and his soldiers almost made me forget who was on the right side of World War II."

http://www.californiaaggie.com/_articles/5974.taf

"I went to the gun show today and was thoroughly entertained. Aside from the typical collection of guns, ammo, reloading supplies, and the like, there were numerous others there, from coin dealers to doll and American Indian crafts dealers. But by far the most amusing thing was the attendees.
I didn't see any Illinois Nazis, but the Nazi (Memorabilia) Collectors were there. One guy was selling WW2 Coal-Scuttle helmets, including one with what appeared to be three .30 caliber bullet holes in it. Kinda weird. Another had for sale an award to some Nazi soldier that was supposedly signed by Hitler himself. Why anyone would want to own this stuff is beyond me."

http://www.matthewmaynard.net/archives/00000025.htm

"Next week, the "Crossroad of the West" gun show returns to the Salt Palace, in downtown Salt Lake City. I went last year, at the direction of a sleazy local tabloid, with instructions to smuggle in a hidden camera and take incriminating pictures. You see, although there are ethical hunter types who attend this event, there are also those folks who enjoy collecting KKK and Nazi paraphernalia. And so they go to the gun show, to purchase Nazi armbands and KKK hoods and books like How to Hide a Dead Body. "

http://www.pifmagazine.com/SID/285/

[-..__...]

14. Cry me a pantload

I heard the next Million Moron March was scheduled to be held in Nuremburg... except that the Germans are
a little touchy about allowing extremist organizations into their country after what happened last time around.

[CO Liberal]

15. There's No Such Thing as a Million Morons......

...because Ted Nugent's fans can't count that high.

:-)

[-..__...]

16. How many records

has Sarah Brady sold?

[CO Liberal]

17. How Many Lives Has Ted Nugent Saved?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm?

[Man_in_the_Moon]

18. NOt to defend that idiot nugent

But are you suggesting that Sarah Brady has 'saved lives'?

[CO Liberal]

20. I Believe the Brady Bill Has Saved Lives

And Sarah Brady has made a far grewater contribution to society than Ted Nugent ever will.

[-..__...]

21. A belief is not fact.

[MrBenchley]

25. And facts are what

RKBA enthusiasts are so short of...

[-..__...]

28. Ok, here's a few facts for you.

No major piece of gun control legislation has been passed since the Brady bill.

Gun rights groups have made significant progress in the courts and legislatures.

With a few notable and predictable exceptions, very few Democrats are speaking in favor of gun control these days.

There's more, but I'll spare you the anguish.

[MrBenchley]

29. Here are some more facts

30,000 Americans a year die by gunshot...a level of violence not seen outside third world countries.

We have more accidcental gun deaths per capita than many countries have gun deaths per capita of any sort.

"Gun rights groups have made significant progress in the courts and legislatures."
Mostly trying to exempt themselves from liability for their corrupt actions, with the help of the scummy Republican party.

[-..__...]

31. Spin won't make my guns go away.

Live with it.

[MrBenchley]

33. Must...resist temptation....

(snicker)

[-..__...]

34. I claim checkmate.

I've reduced you from "hand us a big laugh" to a <snicker>. Your Kung-Fu is weak. Care to try again?

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

22. Then you need to thank the NRA

Because the Brady Bill was dead until they changed it and threw their support behind it.

[MrBenchley]

26. Who are you trying to kid?

The NRA supported the Brady Bill the way Faux Noise supports Howard Dean.

[-..__...]

19. About as many as Sarah Brady has.

[MrBenchley]

24. That woul dbe the RKBA crowd

"million morons"

Mary Rosh going to lead the march?

[-..__...]

32. Perhaps

Mary Rosh going to lead the march?

I head Michael Bellesiles had to cancel as he was still looking for his notes.

[beevul]

64. What about famous million mom marcher...errrrrrrrr

(murderer)Barbara Lipscomb, oh, never mind, shes in the pokey.

[wwwunspunmediaorg]

23. Seriously...

Think about it for a minute. Moore is funnier than Rush, but they both pull the same tricks.

[MrBenchley]

27. Really?

I don't recall Moore ranting for two weeks that Tom Daschle was Satan...

[Township75]

30. Another difference is...

that Moore was more effective at fucking over Gore in 2k and making FL so close when it should not have been. Left people will actually listen to Moore, whereas the ignore Rush.

[MrBenchley]

46. Gee it's funny

that our "RKBA Democrats" are up in arms about Moore supposedly "fucking over Gore in 2k" but don't have word one to say about the millions the corrupt gun industry poured into the effort.

Heston even called upon his inbred followers to lynch Gore.....but all that gets out of the "RKBA Democrats" is desperate attempts to spin the feeble-minded old ham's ugly remarks away.

[Township75]

57. Back it up Bench...

where did you get this from:
"Heston even called upon his inbred followers to lynch Gore....."

You know Bench, it's funny how our "Anti RKBA Democrats" are up in arms about the corrupt gun industry pouring money into the effort to defeat Gore (where is your source on this about millions) but don't have word one to say about Moore "fucking over Gore in 2k".

[MrBenchley]

58. Gee, are you really going to DENY the senile old ham said it?

"Speaking to an NRA "Get Out the Vote for Bush Rally" in Grand Rapids Michigan, Heston, in October of 2000, said something that should have resulted in a visit from the Secret Service: "Now, saying 'I'm with you guys on guns.' In any other time or place you'd be looking for a lynching mob." The crowd responded with "let's do it" and "I've got a rope," according to a Grand Rapids newspaper."

http://www.buzzflash.com/editorial/03/04/11.html


"In Grand Rapids, Michigan two weeks before the election, he told his audience that Gore, who had backed very mild gun reforms, had reneged on his commitments and said: "In any other time or place, you'd be looking for a lynching mob."
Some of the crowd shouted back: "Let's do it. I've got a rope." "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4132445,00.html

(Frankly, anytime you see the assembled RKBA crowd, at gun show or NRA convention, you see what would have been a lynch mob in another time and place.)

"it's funny how our "Anti RKBA Democrats" are up in arms about the corrupt gun industry pouring money into the effort to defeat Gore (where is your source on this about millions) but don't have word one to say about Moore "fucking over Gore in 2k"."
Perhaps it's because sane people know the differennce between millions of dollars worth of corruption and lies, and one honest man's opinion.

[Terwilliger]

60. thinking....thinking....thinking.....

I'm thinking you're not thinking.

[jody]

55. What is your point with this post? I haven't seen the movie and probably

never will.

Movies always contain a bit of fiction or more unless the movie is one continuous piece of film from beginning to end of a real event. None of this editing crap and no interpretation by the director of what might have happened under highly implausible circumstances on a cold day in hell.

Before we know it, movies about AWOL's publicity stunt will have him surpassing the Blue Angles during the few seconds he was at the controls of a utility aircraft before the pilot took control and landed on the Lincoln.

Again, what is your point?

[MrBenchley]

56. The point is many REAL Democrats

are interested...and it's always instructive to expose and debunk the way the far right lies, about guns or any other subject.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lefty48197]

71. The point is that you SHOULD see this film

Don't let Wayne LaPierre tell you how to think. Judge it for yourself.