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Can anyone explain to me the logic of "concurrent sentences"...

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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 04:59 AM
Original message
Can anyone explain to me the logic of "concurrent sentences"...
Now OK, I can understand it when somebody gets convicted of 5 counts of stealing from various shops, and the judge orders 1 year jail for each count, to run concurrently.

To me, that is indicating that that type of stealing merits a 1 year sentence - to spend one year in jail for each count (i.e. 5 years) would be over the top in this instance.

I can also (kind of) understand it when, say, a serial sex attacker gets given a 15 year sentence for each attack, to run concurrently - I presume that this is so that each individual victim can see that their attacker has been given a sentence for the attack on them.

What I can't understand is cases like this:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=816&ncid=816&e=2&u=/ap/20040326/ap_on_fe_st/bribe_money

Essentially, a guy got sent to prison for sexually assaulting a child. He then arranged for his wife to bribe a prosecutor into arguing for his early release.

"Joseph Messier, 64, pleaded guilty to bribery in December 1998 and was sentenced to four years in prison, concurrent with his sex assault sentence. "

Essentially, this guy has been given no extra jail time for attempting to bribe his way out of jail, even though this was a separate crime of bribery meriting a 4 year sentence.

What is the philosophy behind this? Can anyone explain?

(To be clear here, I am not singling out the US, the same thing happens in the UK and is equally puzzling. Also, can we leave out the appropriateness of the specific sentences cited - personally I would be quite happy for serial sex attackers to be locked away for ever, but that isn't part of the debate on concurrent vs consecutive sentencing as far as I can tell).
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 05:16 AM
Response to Original message
1. The color of justice in the US is green.
How do you explain this? He had a legal team he paid a lot of money to get him less time. That's the entire explanation.
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I think I need more help with this.....
Please explain.

I realise that good lawyers can make a big difference in sentencing, but what is the philosophy behind allowing concurrent sentences for entirely new and separate crimes, especially those which undermine the justice system itself?

P.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. I would say to not let people out.
We are so lucky to be the first in two things. People in jail and money spent on arms. I guess that first helps us to stay on top. Thank God we are the 'greatest country in the world.' Maybe we could add numbers going to college on that first list. Or children born alive?
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
4. Character, background, priors of accused
...make all the difference. The sentencing range provided by any punishment code or sentencing guidelines also make a difference. There are all different kinds of sexual assault. There are also different kinds of sex offenders. The possibility exists of an isolated case, mitigating circumstances, etc. Yet, the sentencing code may call for a minimum sentence or prison time which is actually excessive for the crime on the facts of the case. Four years OF PRISON may be more than enough punishment for a particular individual for both crimes.
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kcwayne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
5. I am not a lawyer, but it does seem logical
Edited on Fri Mar-26-04 06:23 AM by kcwayne
Suppose you are convicted of murder and armed robbery and given concurrent sentences. If evidence later comes out that you were not the trigger man and didn't commit the murder your sentence for murder can be thrown out. You will still be incarcerated for the armed robbery under the sentence given for that crime.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
6. well ...
First, I expect that this sentence wouldn't be completely concurrent: he'd already been in prison for some time on the original offence, it seems, when this one was committed. Quite likely there would be some time left on the new sentence when the old one expired. That is not uncommon. For instance, in the case in which I was a victim, the offender was sentenced to the same amount of time on the charge involving me as he'd been sentenced to for another almost identical offence on the same weekend, but that sentence came several months later and so effectively extended the time by 6 months or so.

But basically, look at it this way. Say the person in the story had been sentenced to 10 years on the original offence. That's what that offence merited, in the opinion of the sentencing court. The bribery offence merited 4 years.

If he'd been sentenced to serve consecutive terms, he would have ended up with a cumulative sentence of 14 years. But nothing he did merited 14 years in prison.

We only have one lifetime, and it's finite, after all! If we lived forever, it would make sense to just pile up the terms; but in our reality, sentences have to be looked at as a fraction of that finite lifetime. An offence may merit a particular sentence, but it's the person who is being sentenced for it. A bank robbery might merit 10 years; but a person who had committed 4 bank robberies before getting caught might end up in prison for, effectively, the rest of his/her life if consecutive terms were imposed (leaving aside parole considerations). The offences would have been committed in the space of a tiny fraction of his/her life, but the punishment would use up the rest of it.

There are also the rehabilitation/reintegration aspects to consider -- again, looking at the person rather than the offence. Is anyone more likely to be effectively rehabilitated and to reintegrate more successfully after quadruple the time? Not likely. Is someone who committed 4 similar offences in a short time less likely to be rehabilitated and to reintegrate than someone who committed only one? Probably not. (Not saying that anyone is at all likely to be rehabilitated or to reintegrate, but they probably aren't going to be more likely after a longer time, or less likely if there were multiple offences in a short period.)

Consecutive sentences have pretty much fallen into disuse in Canada, as far as I've noticed. The Criminal Code includes this provision in sentencing guidelines:

"where consecutive sentences are imposed, the combined sentence should not be unduly long or harsh"

The Supreme Court of Canada has said this:

http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/csc-scc/en/pub/1996/vol1/html/1996scr1_0500.html

It is a well established tenet of our criminal law that the quantum of sentence imposed should be broadly commensurate with the gravity of the offence committed and the moral blameworthiness of the offender. Within broader parameters, the principle of proportionality expresses itself as a constitutional obligation. A legislative or judicial sentence that is grossly disproportionate, in the sense that it is so excessive as to outrage standards of decency, will violate the constitutional prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment under s. 12 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In the context of consecutive sentences, this general principle of proportionality expresses itself through the more particular form of the totality principle, which requires a sentencing judge who orders an offender to serve consecutive sentences for multiple offences to ensure that the cumulative sentence rendered does not exceed the overall culpability of the offender.
That's pretty much what I was saying about the case you cited -- nothing he did merited 14 years in prison; his overall culpability (in the opinion of the sentencing court, whose job it is to determine that) didn't call for that much time.

In that Supreme Court case, some of the sentences imposed were imposed consecutively, precisely because the offender's overall culpability wasn't properly expressed by the length of the sentences if served concurrently: the maximum term for each individual offence didn't reflect the gravity of the offender's conduct:

It was open to the sentencing judge to reasonably conclude that the particular blend of traditional sentencing goals required a sentence of 25 years in this instance. Moreover, on the facts, the sentencing judge was entitled to find that a overall term of imprisonment of 25 years represented a just sanction for the accused's crimes. The accused committed a vile pattern of physical and sexual abuse against the very children he was entrusted to protect. The degree of violence exhibited in these crimes was disturbingly high, and the children will undoubtedly be scarred for life. The psychiatrist and psychologist who examined the accused agree that he faces dim prospects of rehabilitation. Without doubt, the accused deserves a severe sentence which expresses society's revulsion at his crimes.

Now, what *I* find bizarre is the US practice of imposing consecutive life sentences. I'm curious whether there is any reason for that other than what amounts to the court saying "you are really, really, really, really bad"; I suppose it might have to do with ensuring that the individual is never eligible for parole, but it strikes me that there are more reasonable ways of doing that. To my mind, the absurdity of "consecutive life sentences" doesn't make the judicial system look particularly rational.

.
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. A question
Edited on Fri Mar-26-04 12:22 PM by lunabush
could the idea of sentences running concurrent also have to do with the fact that if one sentence gets over-turned the others will keep the offender incarcerated?

If this was already stated, forgive me, I didn't get through everything. edit -Yup, looks like I am an echo to Kcwayne
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pnb Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. A few ideas
A bank robbery might merit 10 years; but a person who had committed 4 bank robberies before getting caught might end up in prison for, effectively, the rest of his/her life if consecutive terms were imposed (leaving aside parole considerations). The offences would have been committed in the space of a tiny fraction of his/her life, but the punishment would use up the rest of it.

What is wrong with that though? You make it sound as if robbing 4 banks is the same crime as robbing one bank. That is not the case at all. One is 4 crimes, 1 is only 1 crime. What does the timing matter? If I rob a bank and get ten years and then rob another bank right after I am released, I'll theoretically get another 10 years. Why should I in this case be sentenced to double the time of another person who committed the SAME crimes I did, but just happened to commit them a day apart?

In addition, why would any thief then stop at only one crime? If I rob a bank and something happens where I pretty much know I will be captured wihtin a day or so, I've got no reason to not commit any other crime that would carry at least the same sentence if I knew I'd be serving concurrent sentences anyway.

There are also the rehabilitation/reintegration aspects to consider -- again, looking at the person rather than the offence. Is anyone more likely to be effectively rehabilitated and to reintegrate more successfully after quadruple the time? Not likely. Is someone who committed 4 similar offences in a short time less likely to be rehabilitated and to reintegrate than someone who committed only one? Probably not. (Not saying that anyone is at all likely to be rehabilitated or to reintegrate, but they probably aren't going to be more likely after a longer time, or less likely if there were multiple offences in a short period.)

This would only apply if the only role of the justice system was rehabilitation/reintegration. That is not the case though. That renders this point moot.

Now, what *I* find bizarre is the US practice of imposing consecutive life sentences. I'm curious whether there is any reason for that other than what amounts to the court saying "you are really, really, really, really bad"; I suppose it might have to do with ensuring that the individual is never eligible for parole, but it strikes me that there are more reasonable ways of doing that. To my mind, the absurdity of "consecutive life sentences" doesn't make the judicial system look particularly rational.

I don't think its absurd but I don't necessarily think it is logical either. I think its about more about 1) closure for some; some people would like to hear a judge specifically say about their murdered daughter, "I sentence you to life in prison for the murder of ______." I understand that this is not strictly necessary but it certainly doesn't cause any problems.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. y'know
It really is possible to discuss something without insisting that everything that someone else said is wrong ... particularly when one has to misrepresent what was said in order to do that.

... The offences would have been committed in the space of a tiny fraction of his/her life, but the punishment would use up the rest of it.

What is wrong with that though? You make it sound as if robbing 4 banks is the same crime as robbing one bank. That is not the case at all. ...

Well, you're right, it isn't the case. And amazingly enough, I never said it was, or made it sound as if it was.

One is 4 crimes, 1 is only 1 crime. What does the timing matter? If I rob a bank and get ten years and then rob another bank right after I am released, I'll theoretically get another 10 years. Why should I in this case be sentenced to double the time of another person who committed the SAME crimes I did, but just happened to commit them a day apart?

A valid question. One thing that would have to be considered in answering it is the objectives of sentencing. Different objectives may have to be emphasized in the case of someone who has reoffended than in the case of a first offender, just for instance; perhaps rehabilitation/reintegration would no longer be seen as very likely to happen, and the danger from which the public needs protection would quite likely prevail, whereas an offender who has never been incarcerated might be seen as a better candidate for rehabilitation/reintegration.

There is also no principle that anyone must get the same sentence as anyone else. There is a general principle of similar sentences for similar offenders who commit similar offences, if I can oversimplify it perhaps, at least where I'm at. Someone who reoffended *after* being released from prison really is not similarly situated with a first offender. (And yes, people who commit more than one crime in close succession are generally regarded as first offenders for each offence, if they had not offended before.)

In addition, why would any thief then stop at only one crime? If I rob a bank and something happens where I pretty much know I will be captured wihtin a day or so, I've got no reason to not commit any other crime that would carry at least the same sentence if I knew I'd be serving concurrent sentences anyway.

Again, that's a valid point. I mean, you didn't really notice me stamping my feet and saying "I'm right, dammit, and nothing anybody else says is any good", did you? An explanation for something was requested, and I offered one. The explanation wasn't incorrect.

What you're invoking is the general deterrent effect of sentencing. Sentences should deter other people from committing the crime that the offender is being sentenced for. And that might be one reason that a general guideline against consecutive sentences might admit of exceptions. If there were a particular problem with people committing, say, multiple bank robberies and feeling smug that they'd got off lightly, and it looked like a message needed to be sent to anybody else thinking of doing the same, at least partially consecutive sentences might be in order.

In addition, why would any thief then stop at only one crime? If I rob a bank and something happens where I pretty much know I will be captured wihtin a day or so, I've got no reason to not commit any other crime that would carry at least the same sentence if I knew I'd be serving concurrent sentences anyway.

However, you really do seem to have adopted the common but pretty mistaken view of criminals as clever, calculating fiends who carefully weigh the pros and cons of their actions. Most of 'em really just are not. They tend to have very poor ability to anticipate consequences and adjust their behaviour accordingly -- I mean, after all, they're criminals, and just about everybody knows that people who commit crimes have a really good chance of getting caught and suffering some rather dire consequences. If they were as clever and calculating as all that, they'd get jobs, and they wouldn't have committed the first crime.

It really is just very unlikely that the threat of a consecutive sentence is going to be the straw that breaks a bank robber's will to keep committing bank robberies. They really don't think they're going to get caught -- for any of them.

There are also the rehabilitation/reintegration aspects to consider -- again, looking at the person rather than the offence. ...

This would only apply if the only role of the justice system was rehabilitation/reintegration. That is not the case though. That renders this point moot.

No, I'm sorry, it does not render it moot by any stretch of the imagination. Your attempt to argue by blatant assertion renders your argument pretty damned weak, though.

I never said that the ONLY role of the criminal justice system was rehabilitation/reintegration. However, they ARE one role of the system.

I have not responded to your emphasis of the general deterrent role of sentencing by dismissing it as a non-existent or irrelevant consideration, you'll notice, nor have I denied that similar treatment of similarly situated offenders is a valid consideration in sentencing.

There are many considerations in sentencing. Which one or ones will prevail, where the "best" sentence by one measure conflicts with the "best" sentence by another measure, will depend on various factors. They will include the extent of the need for general deterrence and protection of the public, and those factors may well prevail over equity or the existence of good chances of rehabilitation, in some cases.

(Re: consecutive life sentences) I don't think its absurd but I don't necessarily think it is logical either. I think its about more about 1) closure for some; some people would like to hear a judge specifically say about their murdered daughter, "I sentence you to life in prison for the murder of ______." I understand that this is not strictly necessary but it certainly doesn't cause any problems.

It isn't a huge issue, but what you said does not address the consecutive nature of such sentences, which you may have missed as being my point. Certainly a life sentence can be imposed for more than one offence; it's making them consecutive that is absurd. How does anyone serve more than one life sentence in a row?? To me, the absurdity of it just doesn't look good on the justice system.

.
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
7. The one I like is...
..when someone is charged with multiple offenses like: murder, kidnapping, arson and double parking.
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
8. OK, I asked my dad and he gave me the answer.....
It's pretty much exactly what Iverglas said, only briefer (no offense!).

It hadn't really occurred to me, but here's how it goes....

You're in prison for 6 years for a crime. You have served 3 years. You try to bribe someone to persuade them to let you out early. You are found guilty of bribery and sentenced to 4 years time, to run concurrently with your existing sentence.

Now, here's what I hadn't picked up.......The 4 years doesn't start from when you first went to prison, it starts on the date of sentencing. In other words, you've served 3 years of a 6 year sentence, and have 3 left, but this new 4 year concurrent sentence means that you have to serve another 4 years from now, and thus spend 7 years in prison.

The bribery wasn't serious enough to merit 4 years detention, but it was serious enough to add an extra year onto your 6 year sentence.

I had kind of pictured the concurrent sentence being wholly swallowed in your initial sentence time, but obviously it starts from the date of sentencing, not from the date of incarceration on the original charge.

I thank you.
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Briefer?
Imagine that.
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pnb Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. That doesn't make sense though
You say the bribery wasn't serious enought to merit four years detention. Than why is the person sentenced to four years?

If it had happened only 1 year into the sentence, then the offender would have virtually nothing to lose by attempting the bribery, except of course for his money.

If you murder a person early on a Friday night, what happens if the offender knows that he will get concurrent sentences only if he happens to kill three more people (assuming of course he is caught)?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. well yes
You say the bribery wasn't serious enought to merit four years detention. Than why is the person sentenced to four years?

You do remember those other objectives of sentencing, right? This one is an instance where general deterrence is particularly relevant, perhaps -- it may be necessary to make an example of someone to get the message out. The crime is indeed a carefully thought out act, not an impulsive one. And it is one that the criminal justice system must take seriously in order to preserve its own integrity.

Letting anybody else thinking of doing it know what might happen to them if they do is an important factor. In this case, there may have been the happy coincidence that this message could be sent by imposing a heavy sentence, without treating the offender himself unduly harshly by unnecessarily extending an already substantial term of incarceration.

If it had happened only 1 year into the sentence, then the offender would have virtually nothing to lose by attempting the bribery, except of course for his money.

And IF it had happened only 1 year into the sentence, then the new sentence might very likely not have been (at least wholly) concurrent, no?

If you murder a person early on a Friday night, what happens if the offender knows that he will get concurrent sentences only if he happens to kill three more people (assuming of course he is caught)?

Do you really think that most murders, or even very many murders, are carefully planned out and executed? They really aren't. Murder is one of the offences that is least amenable to the general deterrent effect of sentencing -- people simply do not sit down and think "yikes, if I kill this guy, I'm going to spend the next three decades in jail so I'd better not do it". Your common or garden variety murderer (as distinct from, say, your contract killer) kills on impulse.

Do you really think that murderers walk around with pocket calculators figuring out how much time each murder is going to add to their sentence for the first one? Oh look, three murders for the price of two. It's kind of like three shoes for the price of two, isn't it? It's all a function of how many you need.

.
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