Westchester NY Man Kills his Whole Family and Himself

[mikeb302000]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/20/nyregion/westchester-man-killed-his-wife-and-children-before-shooting-himself-police-say.html?_r=2">The New York Times reports
on yet another multiple-murder/suicide. Interestingly, this time the guy must have felt a bullet was just too impersonal for the wife, so, as the pro-gun folks keep telling us, he just used a different weapon.

But, I contend the gun made it easier to kill the kids and himself, which means that once again, gun availability plays a part.

In the early hours of Tuesday, the State Police said, Mr. Friedlander, 50, beat his wife to death with the leg of a piece of furniture. He also fatally shot his two children, Molly, 10, and Gregory, 8, in their bedrooms, covered their bodies with their bedspreads, then went downstairs to the basement and turned the weapon, a 12-gauge Remington pump-action shotgun, on himself.

What's your opinion? Does this illustrate the danger of having guns in the house? I say yes it does.

I suppose people think having a shotgun available makes them safer if that very unlikely event happens in which they might need it to protect themselves. But, the sad truth is guns in the home are more likely to be misused than to be used for self-defense. This was an extremely dramatic example of that.

Please leave a comment.
http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/">(cross posted at Mikeb302000)

[TBMASE]

1. The guns in my home have never hurt a single person

it's not the gun or the availability of the gun that caused this anymore than it was the fault or the leg of furniture or its availability.

[FiveGoodMen]

2. Really? The availability of a gun had NOTHING to do with the killing?

I guess he could have gotten the same effect just yelling "BANG!" very loudly.

[The Wielding Truth]

3. I don't know. Can anyone beat themselves to death with the a furniture leg?

[TBMASE]

10. I'm sure he could have found other ways to kill himself

without the gun

[We_Have_A_Problem]

6. Not really.

You did notice he beat his wife to death, right? That act, led to the others, so no, the availability of the gun had nothing to do with it.

[TBMASE]

9. Clearly he didn't need the gun to kill his wife

and I doubt seriously he needed it to kill his children.

[FiveGoodMen]

20. Seems like a fair chance that one would have escaped while he was beating the other

Would have been worth a try.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

22. Really?

Did you bother to look at the kids ages? Do you really think they would be able to wake up, identify the issue, recognize the threat, and run before their own father could get to them too?

Lets just ignore as well that being one boy and one girl they were in separate rooms (most likely). Now, he could only shoot one at a time, and yet somehow the noise from the first shot did not wake the other one and cause him (or her) to instantly recognize the threat and run. Had he beaten them to death there would have been even less noise, and less of a chance.

Are you THAT dense?

[FiveGoodMen]

23. Yes I am THAT dense.

I'd like it if they'd had the chance.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

24. They had more of a chance the way it happened...

had the father beaten them to death, there would not even have been the sound of a gunshot to warn the 2nd kid.

[SteveM]

54. Seriously, he was probably exhausted by that time, using a club. nt

[mikeb302000]

31. Well, in all fairness to the first commenter, in some cases

the enraged maniac could very well have used something other than a gun to do the killing. But, what the biased gun-rights folks refuse to admit is this is not always the case. I just made another post in which the boy accidently killed someone with dad's gun and was so appalled, he turned the gun on himself, murder/suicide they're calling it. That one was ALL about gun availibility.

[Lint Head]

4. Guns are for killing not target practice. The availability issue is a problem.

We have the right to own them but not the right to kill without reason or self defense. Too many people have guns that don't know how to properly use them, care for them or store them. Killing has been around since mankind evolved. It's time to use our evolved brains to tackle this issue before we shoot all of our collective brains out.

[spin]

7. I'm glad you explained that to me. I've wasted 40 years of my life target shooting ...

handguns and never realized that I was misusing them.

[TBMASE]

11. LOL! You and me both

Here I thought I was having fun.
There should be a warning that tells you not to use it for target practice

[Lint Head]

38. You can shoot any target you like. I do target shooting myself.

The difference is I do not take likely the fact guns are for killing not tiddly winks. Sounds like you take that fact lightly.
I've been shooting for 50 years. I will surely keep my distance from gun owners with your attitude.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

12. If you believe the availability is a problem....

...how do you explain that crime has gone down while availability has gone up? Dramatically in both cases?

Further, you acknowledge that self defense is a legitimate reason to have one. How would you propose people use them for that purpose if they did not have a gun?

As far as your belief they are not for target practice, how would you suggest one know how to properly use them?

[friendly_iconoclast]

19. You and your awkward questions. Yeesh.

You're making it harder to spread faith-promoting promting rumors with an attitude like that

[We_Have_A_Problem]

21. I know i know....

I try so hard not to point out the gaping holes in the argument, but I just cant help myself.

Must be my Jesuit upbringing...

[Lint Head]

39. It's not an argument or a gaping hole. Guns were invented to kill.

I target practice but that is not the reason guns exist. Of course you have to be efficient at any skill. That is a given. It's funny how you have top explain things to some people.

[gejohnston]

52. same is true of achery

the only difference is the weapon used. That and no one ever knocked over a liquor store with a crossbow, at least that I know of.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

56. No - its pretty much a gaping hole.

It is a lame argument to begin with. Even if the only possible use of a firearm was to kill a human being, that would still not make ownership of them a bad thing. Sometimes you need to kill people - simple as that.

[ileus]

28. My guns are for saving lives, target practice, and hunting.

[mikeb302000]

32. right-on nt

[SteveM]

55. Fifty years, now. Hunting. Target shooting. Killing? Nope.

On "collective brains," there are fewer of us being killed this way than in decades, even with tens of millions more guns "available."

[jmg257]

5. Since he killed his wife with a table leg, and easily could have killed his kids the same way,

this is NOT a good illustration of the dangers of having guns in the house. IF it were, then it would also illustrate that it is just as dangerous to have table legs in your home as it is to have a shotgun. I.E. someone intent on killing someone will find a way, even w/o guns.


Sorry, but I am not eating off the floor.

[Remmah2]

33. Ban assault furniture. nt

nt

[jmg257]

34. You can have my furniture when you pull it out from under my cold dead ass. nt

[petronius]

42. Thanks, but when it gets to that point I think I'll pass...

:rofl:

[jmg257]

50. Lol! Sweet! Nt

[valerief]

8. I'm sure gun advocates would say the little kids should have been armed at all times for their

defense.

Cuz guns don't kill people. Legs of furniture kill people.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

13. That's a hell of a stretch

Especially since no gun advocate I am aware of has ever said such a thing. Perhaps you have something resembling proof for such a claim?

[TBMASE]

14. Only if they wanted to prevent being shot by their father

Guns don't kill people any more than pencils cause misspelled words

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. No, that's one of those "emotional truths" you lot like to believe in.

You know, like Anna Andersen thought she was the Grand Duchess Anastasia...

[Katya Mullethov]

17. You hear that a LOT in here

But no , that isn't who keeps saying it . To that end ,repeating something enough can eventually make it "true" , unless it is extremely lame .

[spin]

18. I'm sure that if you actually believe this, you don't know anyone who is an actual "gun advocate" ..

I constantly see this theory that "gun advocates" want to arm everybody posted in this forum and yet I have never read one post from a "gun advocate" that said this.

I also know a large number of people who own firearms and I have never heard even one of them make such a ridiculous statement.

That's as stupid a statement as the ones conservatives make when they accuse Obama as being a socialist who wants to destroy our nation.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

25. I think it is...

...stupidity and carelessness that get people killed most often.

[rl6214]

48. Only the anti gun zealots say crap like this

"
I'm sure gun advocates would say the little kids should have been armed at all times "

No gun owners ever say this crap.

[Marengo]

49. What makes you "sure"? Can you provide a link or cite? N/T

[SteveM]

57. How many times is that, Val? The arm kids at all times straw?

Actually, you may be getting part of the point, whether you know it or not:

"...guns don't kill people. Legs of furniture kill people."

Neither kill -- you have to have a willing user.;)

[spin]

16. Is a chainsaw in the home a danger?

Police found chainsaw still running at grisly Lewisville murder scene
Published: 27 April 2010 11:14 AM

A chainsaw was still running when police arrived on the scene of a grisly murder on Monday in Lewisville.

The decapitated body of Maria Corona, a 44-year-old mother of six, was found in the street near her home in the 1000 block of Shadow Wood Lane. A trail of blood led from the body to her home, where a white pickup truck was parked in the driveway.

"On the tailgate were two chainsaws, both of which had blood and tissue matter on them," according to a police search warrant affidavit released Tuesday. "One of the chainsaws was still running upon patrol officer arrival."

Lewisville police have asked for assistance from state and federal authorities in locating Jose Fernando Corona, the 49-year old husband of the victim. Police have issued an arrest warrant for Corona, charging him with murder.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/lewisville/headlines/20100427-Police-found-chainsaw-still-running-at-7300.ece

It's not the weapon but the person who owns it. There are 80,000,000 firearm owners in the United States and 300,000,000 firearms. If your contention that "the sad truth is guns in the home are more likely to be misused than to be used for self-defense" were actually true we would have far more tragic incidents involving firearms then we do. Remember that the lowest estimate of the number of times that a firearm is used for self defense in a year is 64,615.

Gun violence in the United States

***snip***

Self-protection

Between 1987 and 1990, David McDowall found that guns were used in defense during a crime incident 64,615 times annually.<62> This equates to two times out of 1,000 incidents (0.2%) that occurred in this time frame.<62> For violent crimes (assault, robbery, and rape), guns were used 0.83% of the time in self-defense.<62> Of the times that guns were used in self-defense, 71% of the crimes were committed by strangers, with the rest of the incidents evenly divided between offenders that were acquaintances or persons well-known to the victim.<62> Of all incidents where a gun was used for self-defense, victims shot at the offender 28% of the time.<62> In 20% of the self-defense incidents, the guns were used by police officers.<62> During this same time period, 1987 and 1990, there were 46,319 gun homicides,<63> and the National Crime Victimization Survey estimates that 2,628,532 nonfatal crimes involving guns occurred.<62>

The findings of the McDowall's study for the American Journal of Public Health contrast with the findings of a 1993 study by Gary Kleck, who finds that as many as 2.45 million crimes are thwarted each year in the United States, and in most cases, the potential victim never fires a shot in these cases where firearms are used constructively for self-protection.<64> The results of the Kleck studies have been cited many times in scholarly and popular media.<65><66><67><68><69><70><71>

McDowall cites methodological issues with the Kleck studies, stating that Kleck used a very small sample size and did not confine self-defense to attempted victimizations where physical attacks had already commenced.<62> The former criticism, however, is inaccurate — Kleck's survey with Marc Gertz in fact used the largest sample size of any survey that ever asked respondents about defensive gun use — 4,977 cases, far more than is typical in national surveys.<72> A study of gun use in the 1990s, by David Hemenway at the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, found that criminal use of guns is far more common than self-defense use of guns.<73> By the Kleck study, however, most successful preventions of victimizations are accomplished without a shot being fired, which are not counted as a self-defense firearm usage by either the Hemenway or McDowall studies.<62><64><73> Hemenway, however, also argues that the Kleck figure is inconsistent with other known statistics for crime, citing that Kleck's figures apparently show that guns are many times more often used for self-defense in burglaries, than there are incidents of bulgaries of properties containing gun owners with awake occupants.<74> Hemenway concludes that under reasonable assumptions of random errors in sampling, because of the rarity of the event, the 2.5 million figure should be considered only as the top end of a 0-2.5 million confidence interval, suggesting a highly unreliable result that is likely a great overestimate, with the true figure at least 10 times less.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

[ileus]

29. I have a poulan...it's not even a danger to tree limbs.

By the time I get it started and running even the trees have run for the hills.

[one-eyed fat man]

35. Husqvarna

Some things it pays to buy high quality. Kentucky and Indiana account for most of the quality hardwoods harvested in the US. Makes it handy to have a logger's supply store close by where you can buy REAL chain, not the Ralph Naderized, slow cutting, anti-kickback, consumer grade "safety" crap sold at general retail.

Second, quit using pump gasoline. The mandated alcohol content dissolves fuel lines, gums, varnishes, and generally screws up screws up carburetors. Use aviation gasoline, it is high quality, stable, and absolutely alcohol free.

Most of the pro loggers around here buy it at the airport and run all their 2-stroke equipment on it. It is super in older outboards. Unlike car gas which evaporates into a brownish gummy goo in the carb in a few weeks of inactivity, av gas leaves no residue. For the typical homeowner it means no more twice a year trips to the small engine repair shop to get the weed trimmer and leaf blower ready for the season. I have a sailboat. If you are using the motor, you are doing it wrong. Using av gas for the mix, even with fuel that's been in the tank for two seasons, the motor will reliably start by the third pull.

[Katya Mullethov]

37. Gunmakers to the king

Their logo is , after all , a rifle barrel and site . My first thought as well was that he could only make 1 cut , because he only had two Poulans .

[one-eyed fat man]

44. Use the right tool for the job

http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/281641/28/Wash-woman-accused-of-using-power-saw-on-husband

Police in Everett, Wash., say a woman is accused of cutting her sleeping husband's neck and shoulder with a power saw.

Officers who arrived at the home say they could hear the man shouting: "You tried to cut my head off. You're going to jail."

Apparently, she took "Sawzall" too literally.

[Katya Mullethov]

46. Oh ...that reminds me !

My ol' lady asked me to bring a pack of extra long demolition blades home from work ...three days ago .

Thanks .

[SteveM]

58. Outboard motor owners are getting adept at cleaning carbs, brother included.nt

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ileus]

27. Write your congressman, demand a gun ban bill.

[krispos42]

30. Why would we want this scumbag to live after doing what he did?

If only all murders were so considerate as to blow their heads off after they killed.

[one-eyed fat man]

36. Even better

If you could get them to commit suicide before they murdered.

[krispos42]

40. Well, ideally they would just go to counseling or something.

Followed by... just leaving for Wyoming or something. Or Bolivia. Or Kazakhstan.

Next in line would be pre-homicide suicide.

Then post-homicide suicide.

Last is post-homicide arrest.

[gejohnston]

41. Wyoming?

Putting God's country in the same category as Kazakhstan?
Things may be bigger in Texas, but they are better in Wyoming

[krispos42]

43. Someplace far away from their problems.

Since Wyoming is the least-populous state in a sparsely-populated part of the country, it means that for nearly everybody in the country, if they move there they'll be at least several hundred miles from the person they're having a problem with.

Unless they strap on a double layer of Depends and go on a caffeine-fueled nonstop trek...

[gejohnston]

45. true,

the county I grew up in is about the size of Massachusetts in land area, and less than 38K in population.

[rl6214]

47. So you're saying he wouldn't have beat his wife to death with a

furniture leg if he hadn't had a gun? The kids were the easy ones to kill, he didn't need a gun.

"Does this illustrate the danger of having guns in the house?"

No, it dosen't. It illistrates how desperate and out of control people can get because of today's economy.

From the story: "It was the first murder since 1977 in Lewisboro, an upper-middle-class town of about 12,000 nestled among reservoirs and hills."

"But, the sad truth is guns in the home are more likely to be misused than to be used for self-defense."

Yup, no murders since 1977, Obvious proof you are correct, NOT.

Unrec for the usual reasons BUT no blind links. You are the king.

[Atypical Liberal]

51. More police blotter stories.

"It was the first murder since 1977 in Lewisboro, an upper-middle-class town of about 12,000 nestled among reservoirs and hills."

Yeah, that gun availability sure is spiking violent crime rates, eh? Oh, wait, no it's not. Violent crime continues to trend down, while firearm availability is at an all-time high.

Better start going after furniture with legs, too.

[SteveM]

53. Solution: Make furniture "legs" out of balsa wood. nt