Update: Philly open carry case

[one-eyed fat man]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=417674&mesg_id=417674

Some may remember the story. A man was stopped while legally carrying a gun, the subsequent profanity laced confrontation was posted on Youtube.

In retaliation for posting the video, the city prosecutor charged the man with "reckless endangerment" and "disorderly conduct."

The prosecutor even showed the video in court. The jury is in: NOT GUILTY

http://ujsportal.pacourts.us/DocketSheets/CPReport.aspx?docketNumber=MC-51-CR-0017077-2011

[Hoyt]

1. Bet ole Mark will be more careful about parading around with his gun and recorder.

[Oneka]

5. Ole Mark

, shouldn't have to worry about police misconduct, and malicious
prosecution in a free democratic society. Don't you agree, Hoyt?

[Hoyt]

6. You pay the price if you parade around on busy/peaceful city street trying to start a confrontation.

I suppose he's glad to be a hero, poster boy for the "gun culture."

Idiot gun owner if you ask me. Bad enough when you walk out the door with a gun strapped to your body. Even worse, when you intend to shock peaceful, unarmed people on buys streets and carry a recorder so you can tape a setup confrontation with police (who have more important things to do than handle some fool exposing his gun in peaceful society). Screw Mark.

[krispos42]

7. Yeah! Let's throw all those OWS protesters in jail, too!

I hope they learn to be more careful!

[Hoyt]

10. Not same thing -- well, unless you are one of those encouraging packing guns at OWS.

But nice try. Refreshing to see something besides right wing talking points in the gungeon.

[AtheistCrusader]

20. Not the same thing? Both groups are lawfully exercising their rights, whether you like it or not.

[PavePusher]

30. Actually, many of the OWS protesters are UNlawfully exercising.

If I have to have a permit in certain locations, they can abide by the same rules too.

Otherwise, I'm generally on their side.

Now, if their goal was the overturn of the permit laws, then some Civil Disobedience in that direction would be appropriate. As it stands, they are merely distracting from their core purpose. But that's probably a topic for a different forum.

[krispos42]

27. BUT THEY'RE DISRUPTING!!! AND THEY'RE SCARING SOME PEOPLE

I mean, jeez, as you know, if a person has an irrational fear of guns (please, won't somebody think of the children???), it is RIGHT and PROPER to persecute and prosecute anybody that inflames that fear, because it's all about how the person FEELS, not about pesky reality.


Well, by protesting Wall Streeters on Wall Street, the OWS people are inflaming the very rational fears that the Wall Streeters have about being called out for their actions! That's VERY UNCIVIL and those OWSers need to be PUNISHED for doing so!

WE CAN'T HAVE PEOPLE SCARING PEOPLE IN PUBLIC.


Don't you agree?

[SteveM]

48. BTW, was the guy with the AK in Atlanta arrested? We'll wait. nt

[rl6214]

18. And I guess you are the poster boy for the anti-gun zealots

Idiot anti-gun zealots if you ask me. Bad enough that you don't know what you are talking about most of the time (red dot scopes are used by snipers and for long range shooting). Even worse the other times the dishonesty in your arguement is just mind boggling (exposing your bigotry in a peaceful society.

I see how this works, just throw out anything and it's fact.

[YllwFvr]

22. you pay the price to exercise your rights you mean

he was boned by the police in Philadelphia, police who bent or broke the law repeatedly when they harassed him. For the third time I believe. I hope he sues them, they definitely broke the law under Pa's Official Oppression law, plus left themselves open to a US 1983 lawsuit in my opinion.

Pa is one of the most open carry friendly states in the whole US. There are thousands of people who OC every day here, my brother is an officer in a small police department covering several towns and has run into a couple. He treated them very politely, which is how every encounter should be. Cautious and polite. Some cops have chosen to harass OCers anyway which has resulted in four lawsuits that Im aware of. The problem being the statewide training all cops receive warning them OC is legal. Philadelphia just thinks they can get away with it. Over and over they get told OC is legal, over and over the officers down there are informed it is legal. They just dont seem to get it, and the only way to teach them I guess is for the city to start paying for it. They even have internal directives letting the officers know its legal and still we get this kind of thing.

I havent had to deal with an OCer yet, but if I do I will be cautious and polite. Just like I would like to be treated when I OC out and about. I have spoken to Mark before. I dont know him well but have chatted with him a few times. He is just a normal OCer, he doesnt look intimidating at all. He carries a recorder like most smart OCers do. All over the US there has been video of lawful OCers getting harassed by police and it is the only defense they have. Otherwise its the cops word against the citizens. I cant speak for the rest of the US since laws vary state to state, but in Pa it is legal to record the cops without consent or there knowledge. Thats not true for everyone else, its an all party consent state. But for cops, they are a public servant, performing a public service, and as such have no expectation of privacy while doing there duty. Thats pretty boiled down and of course there are exceptions.

Its cops like this that give the rest of us a bad image we have to fight against. I havent applied in Philly, and I wont either. I dont want to work alongside people like that. Id like to the im constitutionally aware of peoples rights.

[PavePusher]

29. Why do you want lawful Citizens to be harrased for legal exercise of Civil Rights?

Why do you insist on taking the side of assholes and authoritarians?

[ileus]

43. Because this is a civil right that shouldn't be...

When in reality this is the most progressive of all rights. Overcoming the fear to utilize this right takes a lot of guts. We need more people that won't take No for an answer...

[SteveM]

47. A price you'd charge despite the political and moral corruption, right? nt

[S_B_Jackson]

56. The only party that's going to "pay the price" is the citizens of Philly when Mr. Fiorino prevails

in his civil suit against the Philadelphia police department AND the city of Philadelphia. And adding insult to injury, the City will also be on the hook for not only the assessment, but the plaintiff's burdened legal fees.

Rather you should proclaim, "Sgt. Daughery is and idiot!". Not only is this officer ignorant of the law which he is supposed to enforce, he also thinks that making it up as he goes along is the best course of action. Best if the good Sgt - who threatened to blow the "fucking head off" of a citizen who was acting in a lawful manner - was stripped of his badge and gun, and shown the door. Even better if he were charged with unlawful assault with a deadly weapon, and upon his felonious conviction, HIS 2nd Amendment rights were forever stripped from him.

[YllwFvr]

71. the fees were taken care of

by donations through his forum PAFOA, and from some donations made nationwide. He did pay some, but most of it was taken care of. We help each other over there, Ive donated to several defense funds. The ACLU is now on board with him. Im eager to see where this goes.

[S_B_Jackson]

90. The fact that the legal fees were paid, doesn't mean that they can't be included

in any judgement against the City of Philadelphia and the Philly PD. Quite the irony that assessments against Philly, DC, Chicago, San Francisco, etc are going to be sunk into legal funds which hound cities intent upon denying the 2nd Amendment rights of their citizens.

At some point, one would think that the asshats in municipal government would figure out that it's more cost-effective to simply recognize the right of the citizenry to lawfully keep and bear arms. The PD should focus on actual criminal activities.

[Oneka]

65. Seems the taxpayers

Of Pennsylvania and Philly will be paying the price , for this law enforcement fiasco.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=417674&mesg_id=417674

[Callisto32]

84. So the police may drum up crime to catch criminals, but the public can't drum up police misconduct..

to expose badge-heavy cops?


Seems a dangerous and stupid double-standard to me.


Tell me, what does Kiwi black taste like?

[PavePusher]

93. Slightly indulgent, with strong accents of authoritarianism...

and a bitter aftertaste, coupled with a deep undercurrent of elitism.

[one-eyed fat man]

8. How about a side bet?

How do you think the not guilty verdict will play out in the civil lawsuit?

The police started back pedaling almost immediately after the incident. They admitted their officers were untrained and ignorant of the law.

Philadelphia District Attorney R. Seth Williams filed charges against Fiorino for “reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct” — two charges frequently employed because there’s no explicit law on the books for “contempt of cop,” AFTER the profanity laced recording of police officers screaming and threatening Fiorino went viral. The District Attorney and the police, ostensibly guardians of the rule of law, thus retreated into thuggish wife-beater logic: “you know that you provoke me when you mouth off like that, so why did you make me hit you and make a scene?”

He was in the right, legally, but he was also very lucky not to be shot, or tased, or beaten into a coma, or sodomized with a broom handle, or arrested immediately for some invented offense. Now the malicious prosecution in retribution for posting the account on YouTube will go in front of another jury. How much will classic Philadelphia "thuggery with a badge" cost the taxpayers this time?

[Hoyt]

11. Yea, let ole Mark file a civil lawsuit. He's a fine poster boy for the "gun culture."

[We_Have_A_Problem]

12. He most likely will...

...and I predict he will win.

He actually is a pretty good poster boy. He did nothing illegal. He stood his ground politely but firmly.

[rl6214]

21. It will be interesting to see what sort of offer the city makes.

I would think that Mark will decline any offer and take this thing all the way to a civil verdict.

[ileus]

42. I can see enough cash for a truckload of sigs.

[one-eyed fat man]

25. A solution you can get behind.

Seems like we need a law making it illegal to record police – that would solve these sorts of problems.


:sarcasm: (for everyone else; for you it's serious)

[Hoyt]

32. If I walk out door with machete, spear gun, and camera, then I'm looking to piss off peaceful people

and the police. I would expect to be treated accordingly and as a danger. Mark should have thought of the repercussions before acting like Tony Manero with a gun.

[rl6214]

34. What repercussions?

He won his case and He will win his civil suit against the cops

[We_Have_A_Problem]

37. I wouldn't think so.

I'd be thinking you were heading out for a day scuba diving and just brought the machete along to clear some scrub when you beached the boat on some island.

You seem to think the mere possession of a weapon is proof of ill intent. Is that perhaps because it is the only reason you would have one?

[Hoyt]

44. Sure? Walking among crowds at public park, in line at Chuck E Cheeze, walking into bar or work . .

My gut tells me most of you'd be reaching for your gun no matter where you tuck it, or them.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

49. Nope - wouldn't bother me one bit.

Not if you were just carrying them.

You're projecting again.

[SteveM]

51. What is with this 'Chuck E Cheeze' thing? Shutting down an artery? Or two?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

53. I think he brings up Chuck E Cheeze...

...in an attempt to raise the emotional ante. Kids and all that.

Hell, my daughter would walk right up to a guy carrying openly and ask him what he was carrying and if she could see it. Wouldn't bother her one bit. Of course, she's been taught to respect firearms and their capability, but not to fear them as they are merely an object.

[ObamaFTW2012]

67. Kids & Guns

My daughter will be getting something like this when she's old enough to hold it up and fire it on her own. When not at the range, it will stay in my safe until she turns 18.

[RSillsbee]

77. I'm sorry, but that is a truly UGLY gun NT

[Hoyt]

82. Like most, especially when carried in public.

[PavePusher]

80. Just don't get it with the damn Commie-fornia grip.

I can forgive any color choice, but not actual vandalism of a firearm.

[Hoyt]

81. See . . . . . . that's the kind of gun stuff I find appealing.

[RSillsbee]

83. It looks like it would be

incredibly hard to hold the weapon properly w/that deformed pistol grip

[PavePusher]

86. I've tried them... and it is. They suck. Actually make the gun less controllable...

and more difficult to use safely.

[ObamaFTW2012]

89. My daughter's rifle will not be California legal

I am going to build her a "no ban" rifle, configured as a 16" carbine and equipped with a free float rail forearm, single-point sling, ergo grip, holographic sight (not sure which one yet), vertical grip, and weapon-mounted light. I do my own Duracoat work in my shop (I own a cabinet business) so I will paint it pink, with white and purple accents.

[PavePusher]

92. Sounds great!

[Hoyt]

94. Sounds more like you are building it for you.

[ObamaFTW2012]

98. No need

I already have several of my own. I want her to have one too. If I were building it for me I wouldn't paint it pink, purple, and white.

[Callisto32]

85. Oy.

Those California special AR stocks are teh grossness.

[rl6214]

66. You sure do reference chuck e cheeze and aweful lot

but you are a man in your what, 50's-60's. Seems a bit odd. Do they let you in without children?

[one-eyed fat man]

39. In your case

You maybe, and likely are, very well correct. You would go about waving the machete like a raving lunatic trying to provoke a confrontation.

In this case, Mark got out of his car, without a jacket, to walk into an auto parts store when he was accosted at gunpoint. The gun was holstered. He was not brandishing it, it was not in his hand. He remained calm.

If you argue there was no way for the policeman to know his intentions, you are correct. Similarly there is no way for a policeman to know your intentions during a routine traffic stop. Or back to you and your machete and spear gun, if the machete is in a scabbard, the spear gun un-cocked and slung over your shoulder, I could see a policeman stopping to ask you who you are and where you are going, BUT unless you are raving, there would be no reason to act anything but professional in his contact with you. There would certainly be no reason to curse you at gunpoint and order you to your knees unless you were chopping rival Mexican drug dealers.


Had the cop actually known the law, confirmed Mark's identity and permit PROFESSIONALLY it would have been a big non event. Just like your last speeding ticket, unless your foam-flecked ravings about rude toters with a gun or two strapped on didn't put him off.

[Hoyt]

45. I seem to remember him walking down street. Point is, leave the things at home where they belong.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

50. Sure thing

Soon as I no longer have a need to protect myself outside of my home.

[rl6214]

69. Point is, mine dosen't belong at home and dosen't want to be there

It belongs on my hip or in my fanny pack.

[YllwFvr]

73. it belongs with me

wherever I go

[beevul]

57. Not everyone is YOU hoyt.

Not everyone shares YOUR intentions, nor do they have the same intent in their actions.


Thank goodness for that.

[Hoyt]

95. Yep, and not every gunner is as safe and responsible as you guys think you are, and may be.

But, the yahoos I've known aren't so responsible.

[beevul]

96. And that means exactly what, in the big picture?

Doodly squat. Thats what.


Unless you have more to lean on than your bias, and your fact limited opinion, you got nothing.

[ObamaFTW2012]

64. So as long as people

exercise their rights according to your idea of what is or is not tasteful and acceptable behavior, you don't object to them "freely" exercising their rights. But if their lawful exercise of their rights offends you, they are "a danger" and should worry about the "repercussions".

Do you bomb abortion clinics too? Picket a strip club or a gay parade every once in a while? Participate in the occasional book burning?

[gejohnston]

78. spear gun and camera?

If you have an waterproof housing on the camera, they would just assume you are another tourist (or snowbird from Ontario.) around here.

Which reminds me, I was behind this snowbird while buying ammo. The dealer couldn't get it through his head that has PAL doesn't mean shit in Florida, and "non-immigrant alien" on the 4473 means what it says.

[PavePusher]

31. So, you think police should direct profanity and deadly force at peaceful, lawful Citizens?

Why the fuck are you here on D.U.?

[Hoyt]

33. He wasn't peaceful -- he was looking for a confrontation while packing a deadly weapon.

[rl6214]

35. Would you please direct us to the point on the tape where

he wasn't peacefull?

[ileus]

41. rude = not peaceful....duh!

[We_Have_A_Problem]

36. Perhaps you saw something neither we nor the jury did

Where was he demonstrating he was looking for a confrontation? Could you be so kind as to provide that information?

[friendly_iconoclast]

40. Amazing the number of 'progressives' that turn into Bull Connor or Richard J. Daley when...

...the subject turns to guns.

[Hoyt]

46. Amazing those who tote guns like a TBagger in peaceful areas of our cities.

[PavePusher]

87. Please pull up a crime map of any city and point out the "peaceful areas".

Then state the criteria you use to define "peaceful".

https://www.crimereports.com/

P.S. For bonus credit, point out the "non-peaceful" areas of the city you chose, and state if people should be allowed to carry defensive weapons, including firearms, there.

[Hoyt]

88. Most places where people congregate and enjoy life. Doesn't make me feel safe with guys like you

walking around with a gun or two strapped to your bodies because you think the boogieman is going to jump out from behind a tree any second.

[PavePusher]

91. "Wonk wonk, wonk wonk wooooooonk wonk...."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04&feature=related

[beevul]

58. Prove it.

Cite some actual proof, rather than a pig-ignorant opinion based on nothing but personal bias.

[oneshooter]

97. I wish you would not insult pigs by comparing them to hoyt.

At pigs do show some signs of intelligence.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[YllwFvr]

74. i get it

he was going to autozone, and we all know only thugs go there for car parts. I avoid all autozones because everyone knows they push crank under the "z"

[YllwFvr]

72. yes he is

our own home town hero is what we are calling him. See, in Pa we fight for our rights. Too bad this didnt make it to common pleas court where it could have set precedent. Im sure Mark doesnt mind that it was taken care of well before it got that far.

[AtheistCrusader]

19. Why? You seem to be implying that attempting to punish someone with the force of law when no law was

broken is a good thing? The verdict shows he did nothing illegal. Another way to put it is, the officers and the prosecutor exceeded their authority, and falsely arrested and accused him.

Where I come from, progressives fight back against unlawful police conduct, and stand up for civil liberties. Even if you don't approve of the gun, you should be concerned about someone being charged under color of law for something that wasn't a crime. Stand up for due process.

[ObamaFTW2012]

54. There you go

If you can't get away with violating someone's rights, you should intimidate them into not exercising them freely. Now there's a liberal sentiment. Hurray for oppression!

[Logical]

60. Old Mark has be doing it many times since and no one said a word. Cops know they fucked up on this!

[ileus]

2. Bet ole Mark was glad he had is recorder while legally carrying his sidearm.

[Logical]

62. +1000

[Township75]

3. Even though this story involves a gun, this should be in the GD forum, because...

most people would like to know that the jury found this guy not guilty of the baseless case brought against him for posting the video. It is good news to know that cops can be recorded.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

68. +1

[TheCowsCameHome]

4. Bet ole Mark won't do that again, either.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

9. Bet he will....

...especially now that the local po-po go their hands smacked.

Just because such a thing may cause you to give up on something you profess to believe in, do not assume others are as spineless.

[TheCowsCameHome]

13. Well, why don't both you and ole Mark try it?

Since there's nothing to worry about anymore.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

14. I dont live in PA.

On the other hand, I have done similar things relating to a different issue here in Houston. My actions directly led to at least one HPD officer being forcibly retired and a change of a city ordinance. Yep - i spent a night in jail for it too.

Just because you back down to police presence does not mean others do.

[TheCowsCameHome]

15. You don't have to live in PA

to go and help him out.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

16. I would to legally carry there. N/T

[TheCowsCameHome]

17. Hmmm. He's on his own. n/t

[We_Have_A_Problem]

24. Didnt say that at all

I said, I cannot legally assist. There is a huge difference.

[TheCowsCameHome]

26. Like I said,

he's on his own. Unless someone else takes an OC walk with him.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

28. Ok fine if you want to see it that way.

I guess the city is on its own unless you want to help them...

[YllwFvr]

75. he's OCed with plenty of others.

I believe he was with some immediately after the trial was done with. That area is thick with OCers

[YllwFvr]

23. ive OCed in philly

with a good 60 people all at once. Several years ago however. Id still feel nervous doing it since philly pd are willfully ignoring the law. Also, unless I missed my count, this was Marks third bad encounter over OC in philly. We shouldnt have to worry about going into philly and doing nothing wrong.

[ObamaFTW2012]

55. I carried concealed in Philly

but only because at that time I didn't know open carry was legal. In retrospect, it was probably safer for me to carry concealed, as the racism is so deep in the Philly PD that they would have shot little old black me just for having a gun if they saw it.

It's funny how people say the South is full of racists. I've had less trouble, especially as a black man carrying a gun, in Georgia and South Carolina than in states like Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania.

[SteveM]

52. Just waiting with bated breath, eh?

[friendly_iconoclast]

38. Lots of "liberals" here today and on the Occupy Atlanta thread.

If you use the definition "the people who will defend to the death your right to agree with them". I prefer to think of them as "cafeteria Constitutionalists", myself...

[Logical]

59. I HATE open carry but am 100% happy this guy got off. The COPS in Phllly need to know....

the fucking law.

Cops are mostly arrogant asses.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[YllwFvr]

76. the insane part is

OC has made the news here in PA several times in a big way in the last few years. Its been in mandatory training for ALL officers state wide. Plus, all new officers get training on OC in the academy. I talked about it quite a bit, being an OCer myself, though I stopped while I was in the academy. THEN philly has had a few issues with it lately so issued there own training memo to all philly officers.

I find it very hard to believe that these cops could claim ignorance.

[Logical]

79. I 100% agree. They knew and were just pissed off and wanted to give him shit.

[Logical]

61. Mark said a Civil suit is on it's way! I hope he wins big!!

[YllwFvr]

70. picked up some tidbits

from the forum and post this broke on
"Our officers weren't up to speed we never really addressed it," said Lt. Francis Healy, the department's lawyer.

"In the last several weeks, we've done a lot of training and put out a lot of information about what is allowed and what's not allowed. Right now, our officers are better-versed on the subject matter."

Healy said he emphasized the importance of officers being polite and professional if they have to stop a person who is legally carrying a firearm.

"You can use caution, but you don't need to curse them up and down and put a gun in their face," he said.

Hopefully they mean it!It would be nice if Philly paid attention to the law for once. Always something new coming from philly.