Man tries to stop robbery with baseball bat, gets shot dead.

[Atypical Liberal]

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=8413723&cmp=twi-kabc-article-8413723

"A man trying to stop a robbery in Canyon Country was shot to death Monday afternoon.

The 30-year-old Good Samaritan was trying to help a robbery victim who was being beaten up at a parking lot of a strip mall on the 18000 block of Soledad Canyon Road, according to authorities. "

This is why firearms are so necessary for self-defense. You don't want to have to rely on physical strength to resist your assailants.

[msongs]

1. another gun owner exercixing his 2A rights. thanks a lot nt

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SteveM]

3. Result of watching vast quantities of Rick Perry T.V. ads. nt

[iverglas]

4. I wonder when media outlets

will start following up on incidents like this to report the results of any successful gun tracing done by police.

That's just always my question.

Where did that gun come from?

A straw purchase from a licensed dealer?
A purchase by an ineligible person at a gun show, or via some other private transfer route, from an unrelated lawful owner?
A theft from a lawful owner?

Obviously the person who used the firearm in the crime might be several steps removed from any of those events. But somewhere, sometime, that gun belonged to somebody who was legally entitled to possess it, whether it was a dealer or a first purchaser at retail. And that owner unwittingly or intentionally transferred it to an ineligible person, or had it stolen, probably as a result of failing to secure it reasonably.

How did it reach the person who used it in a crime? Who did whatever it was that first moved it into criminal possession or the criminal market?

How come the media in the US don't seem to have any interest in that?

I'd ask how come none of the forum regulars here take the slightest interest in it ... but that would be pointless for various reasons.

[ManiacJoe]

5. Excellent questions.

Why don't the media report on the traces? Probably because those stories would be long separated from the original story and would not sell advertising since there is no blood.

The forum regulars are interested in the trace result, based on previous discussions. We just have no input into the process and expect that the prosecutors will do nothing with the traces based on their track records of virtually no charges ever filed.

[iverglas]

8. I know, it was pretty rhetorical ;)

-- doesn't sell papers.

It's quite different up here in Canada, at least in some instances. For instance, the Boxing Day (day after Christmas) shooting of teenager Jane Creba on Toronto's main downtown shopping street was committed with a handgun stolen from a "collector", and this figured large in the reporting as coverage of the case went on.

Stolen guns themselves are the subject of media attention:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/features/story.html?id=afe7e522-150c-4896-8f10-91c6ea051a08&k=59524

Although estimates vary, there is no doubt that a percentage of legally registered guns that are stolen end up used in crimes. In one prominent 2004 case, a 46-year-old Toronto mother of three was shot with a stolen semi-automatic rifle. Louise Russo was a bystander outside a Toronto sandwich shop when two men opened fire with an AR-15, a restricted firearm and a civilian version of the U.S. army's M-16. She was left paralysed.

... Police forces in Ontario have greatly outperformed those in other provinces at recovering missing firearms. Of the firearms lost or stolen in Ontario since 1999, 28 per cent have been found. By contrast, the recovery rate in all other provinces combined is 6.2 per cent. In Quebec, about 9.7 per cent of missing guns are later recovered, while Alberta recovers only 6.5 per cent, and B.C. clocks in at 4.2 per cent.

One reason for Ontario's comparative success may be that the Greater Toronto Area is a magnet for stolen guns. A gun stolen from a collector in Ottawa can end up for sale on the street in Toronto, where gang activity has created an underground market for stolen firearms.

Ontario's recovery rate also owes much to its investigative manpower. It is the only province with a police unit dedicated to tracking and recovering illegal guns. The Provincial Weapons Enforcement Unit has 58 detectives working in 13 communities across the province, all focused on getting guns off the streets. ...

Of course, with a firearms registry, the risk of straw purchases and illegal private transfers is way lower here.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. At least two exceptions.

Firearms that are made outside the firearms industry. They most certainly do exist.
And firearms smuggled into the country. Which also exist. I have seen examples of both.

[spin]

19. I have proposed numerous times in this forum ...

that the U.S. needs to enforce existing gun control laws and to improve its NICS background check system.

President Obama: We must seek agreement on gun reforms
President Barack Obama Special To The Arizona Daily Star | Posted: Sunday, March 13, 2011 12:00 am

***snip***

That's why our focus right now should be on sound and effective steps that will actually keep those irresponsible, law-breaking few from getting their hands on a gun in the first place.

• First, we should begin by enforcing laws that are already on the books. The National Instant Criminal Background Check System is the filter that's supposed to stop the wrong people from getting their hands on a gun. Bipartisan legislation four years ago was supposed to strengthen this system, but it hasn't been properly implemented. It relies on data supplied by states - but that data is often incomplete and inadequate. We must do better.

• Second, we should in fact reward the states that provide the best data - and therefore do the most to protect our citizens.

• Third, we should make the system faster and nimbler. We should provide an instant, accurate, comprehensive and consistent system for background checks to sellers who want to do the right thing, and make sure that criminals can't escape it.

Read more: http://azstarnet.com/article_011e7118-8951-5206-a878-39bfbc9dc89d.html#ixzz1cU2jFu26

But I go further than President Obama. I have proposed that we expand the NICS background check to cover ALL private sales of firearms including not only the sale of firearms not only at gun shows but everywhere.

I have often mentioned my own rules for selling firearms to another individual.

1) I have to personally know the individual.

2) The individual has to have a valid concealed carry permit.

I have also suggested imposing draconian prison sentences on anyone caught carrying an illegal firearm or dealing in the smuggling of illegal firearms. In order to free up the necessary space in our overcrowd prisons, I have suggested ending our failed and useless war on drugs and releasing all non violent prisoners who are serving time for mere possession. Ex-President Carter shares many of my views on the subject on ending the "War on Drugs".

Op-Ed Contributor
Call Off the Global Drug War
By JIMMY CARTER
Published: June 16, 2011

***snip***

The report describes the total failure of the present global antidrug effort, and in particular America’s “war on drugs,” which was declared 40 years ago today. It notes that the global consumption of opiates has increased 34.5 percent, cocaine 27 percent and cannabis 8.5 percent from 1998 to 2008. Its primary recommendations are to substitute treatment for imprisonment for people who use drugs but do no harm to others, and to concentrate more coordinated international effort on combating violent criminal organizations rather than nonviolent, low-level offenders.

These recommendations are compatible with United States drug policy from three decades ago. In a message to Congress in 1977, I said the country should decriminalize the possession of less than an ounce of marijuana, with a full program of treatment for addicts. I also cautioned against filling our prisons with young people who were no threat to society, and summarized by saying: “Penalties against possession of a drug should not be more damaging to an individual than the use of the drug itself.”

***snip***

But they probably won’t turn to the United States for advice. Drug policies here are more punitive and counterproductive than in other democracies, and have brought about an explosion in prison populations. At the end of 1980, just before I left office, 500,000 people were incarcerated in America; at the end of 2009 the number was nearly 2.3 million. There are 743 people in prison for every 100,000 Americans, a higher portion than in any other country and seven times as great as in Europe. Some 7.2 million people are either in prison or on probation or parole — more than 3 percent of all American adults!

Some of this increase has been caused by mandatory minimum sentencing and “three strikes you’re out” laws. But about three-quarters of new admissions to state prisons are for nonviolent crimes. And the single greatest cause of prison population growth has been the war on drugs, with the number of people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses increasing more than twelvefold since 1980.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/17/opinion/17carter.html?_r=1

In fact I expressed my views on the subject in two posts just yesterday.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=474891&mesg_id=474918

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=474637&mesg_id=475075

I personally have a lot of interest in stopping the illegal flow of handguns to criminals and criminal organizations and also in insuring that as much as possible that only sane rational people own firearms. The reason is because I have a fair amount of money invested in my firearm collection and have spent a considerable amount of time enjoying my hobby. Tragedies caused by firearms in the hands of criminals and those who suffer severe mental issue increase demands for unreasonably restrictive laws. We can reduce the number of such incidences by simply improving our current laws and enforcing them.

One issue that has really concerned me recently is that MY government allowed the sale of firearms to known smugglers and that many of these weapons ended up in Mexico in the hands of the drug cartels. The result has been possibly as many as 200 deaths in Mexico plus the death of at least one U.S. border agent. Some of these weapons have also ended up on streets in the U.S. and there is a good chance that some will make their way into Canada. Both the Bush administration and the Obama administration ran such programs, so to me this is far from a simple political issue pushed by the Republicans to embarrass Obama.

[ileus]

6. don't take a baseball bat to a gunfight...nothing a 1911 couldn't have solved.

[dtexdem]

7. And I could have sworn that the gun at the scene was used to kill someone.

But I guess had everyone had AK47s, they could have had a grand, old shootout with lots of death and blood and stuff.

[ileus]

10. reads like he could have got the drop on them while they were beating

the victim.


If he was able to get into position without being noticed he could have (with an AK) easily removed 2 or 3 of the threats before they were able to react. He may have been able to prevent any shooting buy just showing up with a 7.62x39 firing long gun. At worst he would have still wound up dead...

[gejohnston]

32. Why AK-47s?

Why not AR variants? HK-91s, Tavors (OK, available only in Canada),HK SL-8, FN-FAL, P-90, any of the Norinco bull pup designs, Styer AUG?
I mean come on, stray off of the talking points once in a while will ya?

[rfranklin]

9. Cop tries to stop burglar, gets shot with own gun...

ESCALON (CBS13) – A local cop was shot with his own gun today. He says he surprised a burglar who shot him in the shoulder during a struggle. Now a $5,000 reward is being offered to find the shooter.

The only officer patrolling the streets of Escalon found himself face-to-face with a brazen burglar.

“They fought over his weapon and one round discharged and struck the officer,” said Escalon Police Department Chief Jim Shawn.

Chief Shaw says the five-year veteran was patrolling the strip mall and noticed a suspicious man. Just as the officer approached, investigators say the burglar rushed him. During the struggle, the burglar got his hands on the officer’s gun and fired. One bullet hit the officer in the shoulder.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2011/06/21/escalon-police-officer-shot-while-investigating-burglaries/

[Starboard Tack]

11. Are you suggesting good samaritans should carry guns?

[one-eyed fat man]

13. You think one on four is a dog-fall?

[Starboard Tack]

16. Not at all. It was grossly unfair and tragic.

The story of the good Samaritan was the most meaningful lesson I learned as a child and I have done my best to live by it. This is a truly tragic story, but I fail to see how introducing yet another gun would have helped. Obviously, the baseball bat didn't help either. Most CCW holders have said that they would not interfere in situations like this and that they carry only to protect themselves and their own property. I think a cellphone would probably have been the best tool in this situation.

[oneshooter]

21. Aren't you who claimed to stop bar fights with a club and a strong voice? n/t

[Starboard Tack]

24. Absolutely! Unfortunately, that only works in countries where guns aren't ubiquitous.

It also helps when the police are respected, rather than feared. I would point out that we also carried our truncheons concealed, so as not to appear intimidating.

[RSillsbee]

25. That's bold talk for a one eyed fat man NT

[AtheistCrusader]

15. It's certainly not a bad idea.

Either way, you take your chances, so to speak.

[Starboard Tack]

17. I think cellphones would be more effective.

A bad situation was escalated by the introduction of a baseball bat.

[AtheistCrusader]

18. This one was.

How many others de-escalated? Hard to say, eh?

I wouldn't have used a bat, that's for sure. Nor would I strictly limit my response to a device that might summon armed help in 10 minutes, if lucky.

[ManiacJoe]

20. Not escalated, just changed.

The four vs one beating started off at the lethal level; 4:1 is lethal force.
The Bat Boy introduced a new player with a lethal weapon (clubs are lethal weapons without training otherwise).
The fighter/shooter then countered the bat with a gun (lethal vs lethal).

While his heart may have been in the right place, bringing a club-type weapon to a 4:1 fight without specialized training is bad tactics.

[Starboard Tack]

26. I agree 100%

[Remmah2]

22. Yeah, then the robbers would have stolen the cell phone. nt

nt

[Starboard Tack]

27. Which would have made them easier to find.

Would you sacrifice your life for a cellphone or a Nintendo?

[one-eyed fat man]

29. No,

but the miscreants were quite willing to kill for one. They brought a gun with them. Appears they came prepared not to take "No" for an answer.

[Starboard Tack]

30. I know. Makes you wonder what kind of world we live in sometimes, doesn't it?

Pity life doesn't come with pause and rewind buttons. Regardless, it's hard to imagine how adding another gun to the mix would've helped. I guess we'll never know.

[one-eyed fat man]

33. There's always that risk.

The best outcome would have been that another gun might have caused the attackers to stop and no one is injured. An acceptable outcome would have been for the attackers to suffer injury with the victims unharmed. It is also possible they could have all suffered fatal wounds. As much as you might not wish it so, sometimes the good guys lose.

That is one reason when carrying for self defense to be cautious about intervening, aside from the higher legal hurdles that must be met to justify defending a third party.

While you have demeaned others for being selfish for expressing that they would only defend themselves, it is a clearer situation. Even then, some may not shoot.

One situation constantly brought up is the robber comes in, gun drawn, and thus "impossible to counter" as he has "the drop on you." Maybe. The question you have to resolve is: if I cooperate will this son of a bitch kill me anyway? If the answer is yes, you have nothing to lose by taking the slimmest chance to kill him first.

[Starboard Tack]

35. I'm with you here Brewster. But there are a lot of ifs.

I'm not trying to demean others for being selfish. I'm just pointing out what they have stated time and again. And I appreciate their predicament. Being armed and witnessing such an event puts one in quite a quandary, doesn't it? I'm carrying this weapon legally and the reason is for self-defense. If I intervene in this situation that doesn't directly concern me and maybe I'm not sure what's really going down except I see a 4 on 1 situation which seems unfair, to say the least, but maybe the 1 just raped the sister of the 4, I don't know. But I do know that 4 on 1 ain't fair. Do I shoot? Do I brandish? Do I yell? I don't know what I would do, but I would do something and it wouldn't involve a gun on my part, so my head would not be confused on that level. Maybe I could have saved the day, maybe I would've been another victim, but I wouldn't have stood by and wondered and I wouldn't have killed anyone. And I have a feeling you would have done something similar.

[Kennah]

34. It's not practical to demand all gun carriers move to Samaria

[rrneck]

12. I notice the robbers

didn't deploy the firearm immediately but rather depended on strength of numbers to commit the crime. Only when the good samaritan arrived thinking he could whip four guys with a baseball bat did the pistol come out.

Bad guys understand the continuum of force too.

[RSillsbee]

23. That's what happens when you bring a baseball bat

to a gunfight

[Hoopla Phil]

28. This is probably why police carry guns. Why should the average law abiding citizen

carry anything less?

[Atypical Liberal]

31. Exactly. I think only the keystone cops carry billy clubs anymore.