All Glocks down at church, please

[marmar]

MILWAUKEE (Reuters)- Roman Catholic bishops in Wisconsin are urging their parishioners not to bring weapons to church now that a new law permits state residents to carry concealed firearms.

"Intuitively, we understand that acts of violence, destruction, and murder are antithetical to the message and person of Jesus Christ and have no rightful place in our society, especially sacred places," the bishops said just before the law went into effect on Tuesday.

"We ask that all people seriously consider not carrying weapons into church buildings as a sign of reverence for these sacred spaces," they said.

The statement, issued by Milwaukee Archbishop Jerome Listecki and four other bishops, said a decision on whether to ban weapons was up to individual churches. ............(more)

The complete piece is at: http://news.yahoo.com/parishioners-asked-attend-church-unarmed-135403914.html

[valerief]

1. Some nut is gonna shoot up a church. Just you wait. nt

[Renew Deal]

2. It has already happened

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/28/church.shooting

[Zorra]

5. Here's another one:

2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings

On December 10, the gunman in both the YWAM Arvada and New Life Church shootings was identified as Matthew J. Murray, age 24, one of two sons of a Colorado neurologist. Reportedly, Murray was homeschooled in a deeply religious Christian household, and he attended, but did not complete, a missionary training program at the YWAM Arvada facility in 2002.<5> Court records indicated that Murray was bitter over his expulsion from the 12-week missionary training program.<16><17> His expulsion from the school was confirmed by Cheryl Morrison, whose husband, George Morrison, is pastor of the Faith Bible Chapel adjacent to YWAM Denver. She didn't know specifics of the conflict. "I don't think that ‘run-in’ is the word, but they did have to dismiss him. It had to be something of significance, because they go the nth degree with people." Murray was expelled from the school due to "strange behavior," which included playing frightening rock music and claiming to hear voices.<18><19> Before the second shooting, Murray left several violent and threatening messages on several religious websites, espousing his hatred for Christianity and his intentions on killing as many Christians as possible.

One message read: "I'm coming for EVERYONE soon and I WILL be armed to the ...teeth and I WILL shoot to kill. ...God, I can't wait till I can kill you people. Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don't care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you ... as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world."<20><21>

In another of his very last posts, made that morning to a Usenet newsgroup,<22> he identified himself as being a member of a local branch of the Ordo Templi Orientis. According to the chapter leader, Murray had attended their events for one or two years, but his request for membership was turned down<23> and he was asked to leave in either September<22> or October<23>.

He was also baptized into the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) in late 2006, according to church records.<24>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings#New_Life_Church_shooting

[RSillsbee]

13. You seem to have left out part of the Wiki article

Hope this helps

At this point, Assam opened fire on Murray with her personally owned concealed weapon. Police say that after suffering multiple hits from Assam's gun, Murray fatally shot himself.


Why did you ignore that part of the story?

[krispos42]

18. Excerpt rules

Can't post more than 4 paragraphs.

[iverglas]

21. not applicable to wikipedia

[krispos42]

23. Perhaps so

I never saw Wikipedia specifically mentioned as an exception to the rules. However, the poster was likely following the DU excerpt rules regardless of specific applicability.

[iverglas]

24. just in case the info is useful to someone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights

Permission to reproduce and modify text on Wikipedia has already been granted to anyone anywhere by the authors of individual articles as long as such reproduction and modification complies with licensing terms (see below and Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks for specific terms). Images may or may not permit reuse and modification; the conditions for reproduction of each image should be individually checked. The only exceptions are those cases in which editors have violated Wikipedia policy by uploading copyrighted material without authorization, or with copyright licensing terms which are incompatible with those Wikipedia authors have applied to the rest of Wikipedia content. While such material is present on Wikipedia (before it is detected and removed), it will be a copyright violation to copy it. For permission to use it, one must contact the owner of the copyright of the text or illustration in question; often, but not always, this will be the original author.

If you wish to reuse content from Wikipedia, first read the Reusers' rights and obligations section. You should then read the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License and the GNU Free Documentation License.

[krispos42]

26. That's good to know n/t

[Euromutt]

9. And such a person would be dissuaded by not being able to legally carry a concealed weapon inside?

Every time we get one of these doom-filled predictions, the question is always "so what's preventing that from happening now?" Seriously, if some whackjob wants to "shoot up a church" and commit mass murder, what makes you think he's going to be dissuaded by it being illegal to bring the gun into the church?

[Ezlivin]

3. Time to prey

Will that be single- or double-action?

[NightWatcher]

4. praise the lord and pass the ammunition

[Mopar151]

6. "Gun Sale at the Church"

A Beat Farmers classic http://youtu.be/0npOg8TvJuE

[SteveM]

7. Apparently, individual churches can still "ban" firearms...

From the source in the OP:

"The statement, issued by Milwaukee Archbishop Jerome Listecki and four other bishops, said a decision on whether to ban weapons was up to individual churches."

______________
So, if an individual church wishes to "ban weapons," they can do so. With all the effect such bans had in the past.

What is the point, here?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

10. Perhaps the Bishop needs...

...to catch up on his reading.

Ecclesiastes 3:
1 There is a time for everything.
There's a time for everything that is done on earth.
2 There is a time to be born.
And there's a time to die.
There is a time to plant.
And there's a time to pull up what is planted.
3 There is a time to kill.
And there's a time to heal.
There is a time to tear down.
And there's a time to build up.

Luke 22:
33 But Simon replied, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death."
34 Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, you will say three times that you don't know me. And you will do it before the rooster crows today."
35 Then Jesus asked the disciples, "Did you need anything when I sent you without a purse, bag or sandals?"
"Nothing," they answered.
36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it. And also take a bag. If you don't have a sword, sell your coat and buy one.

;)

[petronius]

8. A moderate enough request. I'd support the right of private property owners to

exclude firearms entirely (as it seems the law provides), but all they're doing is requesting that people consider leaving guns out.

I'm a bit surprised, actually - in my observation the Catholic Church is typically a bit more top-down on things like this...

[Hoyt]

11. Good for the Bishops. Baptists where I live support guns and a lot of other right wing crud.

[gejohnston]

17. But I doubt Glocks

They are made by those Godless Europeans you know. So are my Walther and Mauser, so don't look at me.

[ileus]

12. I'm a totin' catholic....you never know when someone may try and molest you there.

[Union Scribe]

14. Is that a snubby in your pocket or are you glad to see me?

:P

[spin]

15. Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus was against self defense or concealed weapons ...

When Jesus was arrested in the garden at Gethsemane, one of his favorite disciples, Peter, sliced off the ear of Malthus, the servant of the high priest, with a sword.

Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.) John 18:10 NIV

Jesus was well aware that some of his followers carried swords and he had suggested that they do so. Since he was not aware that they were packing swords, the weapons must have been concealed.

35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”

“Nothing,” they answered.

36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’b; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That is enough,” he replied.
Luke 22:35-38, NIV

I can believe that Jesus was opposed to "acts of violence, destruction, and murder", but legitimate self defense is entirely different.

Of course, some will point out the following verses to show that Jesus said to respond to an aggressor without violence.

In the Sermon on the Plain, Jesus says:

27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them.

30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Luke 6:27-31 NIV

However, I will point out that slapping a person on the cheek or taking their coat does not constitute a lethal attack that will cause serious injury or death.

If let's suppose some fool walked up to me and told me to give him my wallet. I would simply appraise him and if I felt all he wanted was the wallet, I would give it to him. I can always replace my money, my credit cards and my driver's license. I may not be able to replace my health and living is far better than being six feet under.

If I felt the individual plan to injure me or kill me even if I complied, I would have no problem using my concealed revolver to attempt to stop his attack. I would have little or nothing to lose.

[gejohnston]

16. So European

Glocks are. Oh yeah, so is my Walther. I guess that works that works in a Catholic Church. Baptists should carry American made.

[Euromutt]

25. Besides, Glocks and Walthers are from Catholic country

Glock's based in Deautsch-Wagram, Austria, and Walther in Ulm, Baden-Württemberg, Germany, both predominantly Catholic areas, and we couldn't be expecting Protestants to carry Papist handguns, now? The less said about Beretta the betta.

[gejohnston]

29. not a big fan of Beretta I take it?

My daughter bought a Tarus knock off of a Beretta pocket pistol (can't think of which) but the tip barrel actually fell of at the range after a few rounds.

[flamin lib]

19. In the name of the Smith, and the Wesson and the NRA, Amen. na

[gejohnston]

20. is that the trinity?

In the name of flintlock (father), fixed cartridge (son) and phaser (holy ghost)

[Euromutt]

22. I would have though it would have been...

...the 1911, the Glock and the .45 ACP cartridge.

[gejohnston]

27. at the risk of sterotyping

I figured it would have been the Luger, the Glock, 9x19 cartridge

[Hoopla Phil]

28. Oh jeez, are we really going to devolve into the 9mm vs the .45?! Everyone knows that Jesus

would carry a 1911 - in .45 of course. It was invented by John MOSES Browning afterall.

[gejohnston]

30. naww it is a US v European thing but

While Jesus would in deed carry a 1911, but it would be in .38 Super.