A telling quote from Dianne Feinstein re: Fast & Furious

[friendly_iconoclast]

http://www.npr.org/2011/11/01/141911605/senators-grill-officials-on-atf-operations

SENATOR DIANNE FEINSTEIN: There's been a lot said about Fast and Furious. And perhaps, mistakes were made, but I think this hunt for blame doesn't really speak about the problem. And the problem is anybody can walk in and buy anything - .50 caliber weapons, sniper weapons - buy them in large amounts

I do like the use of weasel words: "And perhaps, mistakes were made...".
Wouldn't want an examination of government wrongdoing to interfere with the important stuff, would we?


This hearing also discussed at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x475464

http://www.senate.gov/fplayers/jw57/urlMP4Player.cfm?fn=judiciary110111&st=840&dur=5749

[Abin Sur]

1. I'd be fascinated to know what her definition of a "sniper weapon" is. n/t

[ileus]

5. clueless woman...

She's one of these "guns kill people" dolts, without any idea what the Second is about.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

40. I want to know...

...if she, like Congressman Johnson, thinks Guam may capsize.

My tax dollars at work. :mad:

[AzWorker]

62. hehe....at the range I always am sure to tell the guys with the scoped hunting rifles...

... "nice sniper rifle"

Most get flustered and say "it's my deer gun, not a 'sniper' rifle"

The light bulb finally goes on when I tell them "well, thats what the gun grabbers are gonna call it when they want to take it"

8^)

[Abin Sur]

71. From the VPC's report, "One Shot One Kill":

http://www.vpc.org/graphics/snipcov2.pdf

If the firearms industry itself calls a weapon a “sniper” or “counter-sniper” rifle,
we took the industry’s word for it. If a manufacturer, a book about sniping
written by a recognized expert, a trade magazine, or industry advertising calls
a given firearm a “sniper” or “counter-sniper” rifle, we consider it to be a
sniper rifle.

If the firearms industry calls a weapon by a euphemism such as “tactical rifle,”
but the rifle has essentially the same design features and accessories as, or is
simply a production derivative of, a recognized sniper rifle, we consider it to
be a sniper rifle. This criterion is necessary because of the semantic evasion
employed by the firearms industry to sell sniper rifles without calling them
such.

Their suggested remedy to this "problem"?

Add Heavy and Intermediate Sniper Rifles to the National Firearms Act

The failure of the federal assault weapons ban demonstrates the likely futility
of successfully controlling all forms of sniper rifles through statute.d Congress,
however, should immediately amend federal law to bring heavy and intermediate
sniper rifles (.50 BMG, .338 Lapua, and perhaps others) under the National Firearms
Act. This action would subject these weapons to the same regimen of registration,
background checks, taxation, and special permits to which other weapons of war,
such as machine guns and destructive devices, are currently subjected.

Evaluate an Import Ban on Sniper Rifles

In the case of imported sniper rifles, the President does not need to wait for
Congress to take action. He should immediately order the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms to review whether these weapons pass the “sporting
purposes” teste that controls which firearms can be brought into the United States.
ATF currently denies importation to unsafe, ultra-concealable “junk guns” and foreignmade
assault weapons because they fail the sporting purposes test. Given the
combat mission of “purpose-designed” and “purpose-built” sniper rifles, it seems
likely that these weapons would be barred from import under this standard.

Use the Civil Justice System to Hold Manufacturers Accountable

Another promising avenue may be recognition that the marketing of sniper rifles
presents a classic case, using ordinary “black letter” tort concepts, of an industry’s
calculated decision to sell “purpose-designed” and “purpose-built” instruments of war
without restraint—in reckless disregard of clearly foreseeable consequences stemming
from the intended and advertised use of the product.
Given their acknowledged design purpose, sniper rifles are clearly qualitatively
different from any other class of firearms. Other firearms sold in the civilian market
are at least nominally designed and sold for sporting or supposed self-defense
purposes. Sniper rifles, on the other hand, are designed and sold for the express
purpose of killing people. Civil courts should be prepared to recognize that difference.
Therefore, a useful strategy for effective control may lie in civil litigation, a
strategy that would be enhanced if states passed legislation clearly establishing strict
liability for damages resulting from the use or misuse of such weapons. Such
litigation could impose tort liability, including punitive damages, for manufacturers,
wholesalers, distributors, importers, retailers, and any others who participate in
bringing to the civilian market any sniper rifle (in any caliber) or associated gear (such
as ammunition or optics) that is used to kill or injure a human being or to damage
property.

Mind you, this report came out in 1999...so their ability to act on their desires is, well...squat.

:rofl:

Oh, I have to add this! From http://www.vpc.org/studies/awaacc.htm

The API Predator Laser Target Designator is equipped with "helium neon lasers" that "project an intense narrow beam of red light" with "an effective range" of up to 500 meters. Laser sights give their users point-and-shoot assassination capability.

Sound familiar?

[friendly_iconoclast]

74. So *that's* where the guy with the .43 caliber sniper rifle picked up that meme!

Many thanks for digging those one up.

[DonP]

2. Give it a minute or two now.

So one of our resident apologists can come in and deny she ever said that.

And if she did that's not really what she meant, you must have been too stupid to understand what she really meant.

I wonder if DiFi says the same thing about Japanese American internments in WWII? "Perhaps, mistakes were made, but ..."

[iverglas]

8. don't know about that

but I'm wondering whether I'll be disappointed to see that no one does what I'm expecting ...

[Union Scribe]

9. Lol, I think you cut it off at the knees.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

60. and, I thank him for it.

kudos. well done.

[SteveM]

3. Not "anybody can walk in and buy anything..." Only Diane Feinstein...

who obtained a California concealed-carry permit when she felt HER skin was worth saving.

But of course, you can't.

_______________
Yep, it's beginning more and more to sound like F&F was a jerry-built scheme to justify gun-control in a cordon sanitaire in the U.S. Southwest. The other possible "rationale" for her views on F&F is an attempt to somehow direct attention from other purposes -- like the perhaps more hideous purpose of arming the Zeta Cartel's rival, La Sinaloa.

[spin]

6. Well it appears that if you are a gun smuggler or person making straw purchases ...

and live near the Mexican border, you could buy firearms even if you were a convicted felon.

Of course, you needed a little help from the ATF, the FBI, the DOJ and ICE.

Why do I smell the CIA?

[iverglas]

10. well, I'm partly not disappointed

Only Diane Feinstein...
who obtained a California concealed-carry permit when she felt HER skin was worth saving

Of course you meant to add:

from the terrorists who had threatened her life and shot out all the windows in her home, after she succeeded to the position of mayor because the incumbent was murdered by a person with a firearm ...

Anybody here had those experiences having been elected to perform public duties?

Here, have a handgun permit on me.

[Remmah2]

18. What's the difference between a government official and an average citizen.

Nothing.

[iverglas]

23. sorry, you don't seem to have answered my question

Have you recently (or ever) taken up a public office as a result of the previous incumbent being murdered by a person with a handgun, or had a terrorist group shoot out all the windows of your home and threaten your life?

I wonder whether that might be a bit of a difference between Feinstein and you?

[rl6214]

28. So you are willing to explain away her gun ownership but

for the average citizen of her state who has been attacked, be it male or female, you don't have that luxury.

Long live the queen.

[krispos42]

20. A situation which used to happen on a daily basis

In many neighborhoods in California and the nation as a whole. And probably still does.

And no, I don't mean becoming mayor because of murder.


I don't blame her one iota for getting a permit and a handgun after her windows were shot out and her life threatened. I blame the system because her neighbor would not be able to do the same.

[Abin Sur]

21. George Orwell had it right.

[iverglas]

26. you folks really are

bitter little people.

[Abin Sur]

27. I once characterized you as "bitter", and I'll stand by that.

You do come across that way at times (at least in the short time I've been here). I am puzzled why you would describe me that way...if anything, I've been gloating over the success of the gun rights movement in this country.

[iverglas]

31. the envy of anyone who has anything you don't have

and the fear of anyone getting anything you don't have.

It's a consistent characteristic of the USAmerican psyche generally.

In this case, we have a Democratic politician, a person serving in public office and thus at increased risk of harm virtually by definition, whose life was under threat from a violent organization that had carried out dozens of bombings, including planting a bomb at her home that failed to detonate. They had shot out all the windows of her home. And separately, her predecessor had been murdered.

But she's not a servant of the public, a person chosen by the public to carry out duties assigned to her by the public on their behalf and in their interests, at risk to herself.

No, she's some nasty self-serving member of a nasty self-serving élite, claiming privileges not available to the regular folks.

It's a mean-mindedness that extends throughout US public policy. Everybody has to be constantly on guard lest somebody get something they don't have.

GLBT people who want to marry or send their kids to school or hold jobs want "special treatment", any racial or ethnic or other minority looking for redress or equality wants "special treatment". And an elected representative whose life is under immediate threat, well beyond the risk elected office holders are exposed to in normal situations, is just the same, she just wants "special treatment".

Well, she had special treatment. She was singled out by violent criminals for death. How much more special does it get?

I don't happen to think that hauling a gun around with her wherever she went was likely to do much to avert the risk. But that's me. You people seem to think hauling a gun around is an effective way of doing that.

But then you all seem to think that someone in that position should just be expected to disregard or tolerate the special and significantly elevated risks they are exposed to, because you, who assume none of those risks and do nothing on the public's behalf and in the public's interests to place you at such risk, should just have everything she has, just because.

Why not demand that the state pay you the equivalent of her salary, too? Surely that would be more worth having for a large majority of people than a pistol in their pocket.

It's just petty, bitter, mean-minded smallness. And pretending that Orwell was talking about the situation of Feinstein just makes you look like a petty, bitter, mean-minded demagogue.

[friendly_iconoclast]

50. That has got to be *the* most blatant defense of elitism I've seen here at DU

And I say: Fuck that noise.

I have no problem with Dianne Feinstein getting a concealed weapon permit. Were I in her shoes, I'd do the same.

What I do have a problem with is the fact that Diane Fong of Chinatown, David Foster of Oakland, or Diana Fuentes
of National City aren't able to get the same permit with the same ease- because they're not Somebody Important, rich, or
well-connected. That isn't what USAmerica should be about, regardless of the opinion of some kibitzer with no stake in the game.

[iverglas]

65. and what I have a problem with is demagoguery

aren't able to get the same permit with the same ease- because they're not Somebody Important, rich, or well-connected

Which is what that is, of course.

Why not just say they can't get the same permit with the same ease because they didn't have a chicken sandwich for lunch like Feinstein did?

You would be saying something exactly as honest and true as what you said.

[friendly_iconoclast]

72. Then why do you engage in it? Feinstein is a 1%er, whether you want to admit it or not.

She may not have as much money as the Brothers Koch or the late Steve Jobs, but a multi-term US Senator is very much a power in the
land. She was certainly a power in the Bay Area when she got her pistol permit (not that she didn't need it), but those that
didn't have the same amount of juice would not have gotten the same expedited treatment- if, indeed, they'd have been able to get one at all.

Her complaints about it being too easy for other people to get guns are hypocritical in the extreme.

[iverglas]

77. I'll bet she dyed her hair, too

Obviously, that is why she got a pistol permit.

[friendly_iconoclast]

52. Equating the quest for equal treatment under the law with homophobia?

GLBT people who want to marry or send their kids to school or hold jobs want "special treatment", any racial or ethnic or other minority looking for redress or equality wants "special treatment". And an elected representative whose life is under immediate threat, well beyond the risk elected office holders are exposed to in normal situations, is just the same, she just wants "special treatment".

Duck, weave, tapdance, shout and handwave all you want, but DiFi got special treatment due to her position- and she doesn't want others to get what she got. Animal Farm was a satire, not an instruction manual...

[iverglas]

66. you don't care how ridiculous you make yourself look, do you?

[rl6214]

29. Your lack of honesty is really astounding.

[iverglas]

25. was her neighbour targeted

by people out to kill them individually, personally, specifically, by name?

Do you imagine I was suggesting that having a handgun would be a defence against drive-by shootings of windows?

Or do you think maybe that I was citing the incident as evidence that Feinstein was a target of a group that wanted and intended to kill her, specifically because of who/what she was?

You're aware that Feinstein terminated her permit to carry a firearm when the threat no longer existed?

[krispos42]

32. Does it matter?

"specifically, by name?" :rofl: THAT'S your standard for getting a permit in a may-issue state?

So if I can produce a letter wrapped around a brick thrown through my living-room window, do you think I should be on the express track to get a concealed-carry permit and a handgun? Say, an hour after showing up at the cop shop?

I mean, really, how often does political assassination occur in America? More or less often than the general rate of 5.4 per 100,000 per year? There are thousands of federal, state, county, and municipal legislators in this country. Are we losing several a year to due political assassination?


Really, what occurs more; threats by strangers that result in deaths, or people killed by strangers with no prior warning whatsoever?


And regarding Feinstein's permit... did she cancel it or let it expire? Or did the California AG revoke it once the AG was satisfied that the threat no longer existed?

Of course, as a CCW permitee, she can chose to destroy her permit at her discretion.

[iverglas]

33. I'm afraid I quite fail to take your point

Really, what occurs more; threats by strangers that result in deaths, or people killed by strangers with no prior warning whatsoever?

Um, the latter? Almost always in circumstances in which the victim having a gun would have made no difference? Yes, that's it.

There are thousands of federal, state, county, and municipal legislators in this country. Are we losing several a year to due political assassination?

Are we talking about any of them? Have any of them had attempts made on their life? Do any of them have firearms permits that you disapprove of? I really am failing to take your point here.

So if I can produce a letter wrapped around a brick thrown through my living-room window, do you think I should be on the express track to get a concealed-carry permit and a handgun?

A letter threatening your life? From you have no idea whom? Hmm.

And regarding Feinstein's permit... did she cancel it or let it expire? Or did the California AG revoke it once the AG was satisfied that the threat no longer existed?

Got google? Is there a correct answer?

"specifically, by name?" :rofl: THAT'S your standard for getting a permit in a may-issue state?

Was there a reason you chose to disregard everything else I said and pretend I said that?

Seriously, what was the point of your post?

[krispos42]

34. Ah.

Your "I'm going to pretend I don't get a single bit of what you wrote, hoping you'll explain in more and more elaborate analogies so I can be snarky and aloof by quoting bits and pieces out of context" mode is engaged.

Nice try.

[iverglas]

36. I quoted pretty much everything you said

As far as "context", that was pretty much my problem. I didn't see it. I saw a string of, uh, thoughts that didn't seem to be related to anything or to one another. But I guess I'll just have to remain in the dark.

I'll be pretty confident that you knew what I was saying, though, despite your efforts to make it look like something else.

[krispos42]

41. Exactly

You quoted everything I said, and pretended to have no clue what anything could possible mean or how it could relate written further up the subthread.

Kinda like this:

I don't blame her one iota for getting a permit and a handgun after her windows were shot out and her life threatened. I blame the system because her neighbor would not be able to do the same.

was her neighbour targeted by people out to kill them individually, personally, specifically, by name?

So if I can produce a letter wrapped around a brick thrown through my living-room window, do you think I should be on the express track to get a concealed-carry permit and a handgun? Say, an hour after showing up at the cop shop?

So if I can produce a letter wrapped around a brick thrown through my living-room window, do you think I should be on the express track to get a concealed-carry permit and a handgun?

A letter threatening your life? From you have no idea whom? Hmm.

Apparently my reasoning flaw, my illogical thought process, is assuming that when you said "was her neighbour targeted by people out to kill them individually, personally, specifically, by name?" you were defending her getting a concealed-pistol permit to protect herself. But I forgot the #1 rule of dealing with you... daring to extrapolate ANYTHING from anything you post is libelous and scandalous and makes me a giant ig-nor-ay-moose.

* * * * *

I'll be pretty confident that you knew what I was saying, though, despite your efforts to make it look like something else.

You took the words right out of my keyboard.

[iverglas]

43. I got it; in case you didn't ...

So if I can produce a letter wrapped around a brick thrown through my living-room window, do you think I should be on the express track to get a concealed-carry permit and a handgun?
A letter threatening your life? From you have no idea whom? Hmm.

... I was suggesting that your hypothetical scenario was ridiculous.

Obviously the first line of defence against death threats is to have the person who makes the threats arrested, charged, prosecuted ...

In Feinstein's case, and I guess we have to keep saying this, she was the target of a terrorist organization that had bombed dozens of targets in the area, planted a bomb at her home and shot out her windows.

Not thrown a brick through her window.

And evidently not available for arrest, charge, prosecution ...

So your analogy wasn't.


Like I said, I happen to think that hauling a gun around is a pretty ineffective way of avoiding death from that kind of source.

But gun militants disagree. So by their standard, not mine, she was in need of a gun.

And there is just no way in hell that anyone can demonstrate that poor old Joe Nobody was in such need.

[krispos42]

45. Oh, iverglas, I give you more credit for more imagination than that.

What would you call what gangs do? You know, the criminal organizations that shoot up very large numbers of homes and cars full of people and kill thousands annually? If I'm threatened by a gang, perhaps with a note tied to a brick tossed through my windows, can I count on getting the LA County or SF County sheriff to get me a permit?

Or, to be more precise, it is your opinion that I could (assuming I was a resident of one of the aforementioned counties and otherwise qualified for a permit) get a concealed pistol permit if I was threatened by a gang?



Like I said, I happen to think that hauling a gun around is a pretty ineffective way of avoiding death from that kind of source.

Ah ah ah! No, you didn't say that in this thread. Sorry. Now, that is what I thought you meant earlier, but remember rule #1 - never extrapolate from your statements.


But regardless, I don't believe drive-by shootings aren't the preferred form of assassination. You have to know where your target is, approach, identify from a moving vehicle, then, finally, slow down in order to be able to shoot accurately in a fairly narrow timeframe from a compromised shooting position.

If this terrorist group had targeted her for death, it could have come from a wide variety of vectors, some of which a concealed handgun would be useless to stop and others where it would potentially be very useful.

And should Feinstein's neighbor been able to get a concealed pistol permit, bearing mind that she is next door to a terrorist target?

[iverglas]

67. post 31, 9:04 pm

I said: I don't happen to think that hauling a gun around with her wherever she went was likely to do much to avert the risk. But that's me. You people seem to think hauling a gun around is an effective way of doing that.

So when I said later:

Like I said, I happen to think that hauling a gun around is a pretty ineffective way of avoiding death from that kind of source.

please don't tell me

Ah ah ah! No, you didn't say that in this thread. Sorry. Now, that is what I thought you meant earlier, but remember rule #1 - never extrapolate from your statements.

Thank you.


Or, to be more precise, it is your opinion that I could (assuming I was a resident of one of the aforementioned counties and otherwise qualified for a permit) get a concealed pistol permit if I was threatened by a gang?

Ah, the hypothetical question trap. I don't generally fall for it, you might have noticed.

I have no idea who you are, why you are threatened by a gang, what other steps you are taking to deal with the problem, whether you are cooperating fully with police, etc. etc.

Let me ask you: You are a member of a rival gang but have no criminal convictions or whatever else would disqualify you. The brick gets thrown through your window. I don't see any reason not to issue you a concealed pistol permit; do you?

As for Feinstein's neighbour, really, do you want to get that silly?

If you really don't see the difference between a mayor / US Senator or whatever Feinstein was at the time and yourself, and don't acknowledge the public interest in her safety, all in terms of things having nothing to do with anyone's sad envy of her status, that's just the way it is.

Hollywood celebrities, I frankly have no concern about one way or the other. If somebody thinks they shouldn't get pistol permits, I won't argue. I will still point out that calling them hypocrites is based on the obviously false claim that none of them are in special danger because of their status. I have no doubt that the redacted portion of Sylvester Stallone's 2004 application detailed exactly the nature of that special danger (and was not disclosed precisely for his protection).

[krispos42]

80. *shuffle shuffle shuffle*

Ah-ha! Different subthread. But I take your point.


"Let me ask you: You are a member of a rival gang but have no criminal convictions or whatever else would disqualify you. The brick gets thrown through your window. I don't see any reason not to issue you a concealed pistol permit; do you?"

Translation: I don't generally fall into the trap of the hypothetical, but having just stated that, I'm going to post one for you. ;-)


Hypothetically? Nope.


"If you really don't see the difference between a mayor / US Senator or whatever Feinstein was at the time and yourself, and don't acknowledge the public interest in her safety, all in terms of things having nothing to do with anyone's sad envy of her status, that's just the way it is."

All the concerns that people have about concealed-carry (real or imagined) are still relevant. I'm told it won't help. I'm told it endangers public safety due to crossfire. I'm told that in the emotionally-charged world of politics, guns should not be carried by out elected officials. I'm told it arms criminals, either through surreptitious theft or forced disarmament during an assault.

If I'm not allowed to carry concealed, to endanger other innocents in an attempt to protect my life, I fail to see why she should be. If she's that special, then the city and the mayor should leave her safety in the hands of armed, trained professionals. In other words, assign her an SFPD officer to protect her. That's what other city mayors do.

And I doubt that Stallone was in any more danger than anybody living in South Central LA, which I've been told is a shithole of sorts but have not witnessed personally.

[oneshooter]

35. She had 2 permits, one for a 22, and another for a 38. She

proudly dropped the permit for the 22. But kept the one for the 38.

[iverglas]

37. and your authority for this is

... ?

I'm sure it's perfectly good. I'd just like to have access to it for my own reference.


edit - dang it, she was born on June 22 and was the 38th mayor of San Francisco, so my own googling efforts aren't going to get me far.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

56. Ah yes, the ifamous Illegal Frisco Handgun ban

That did not apply to the rich, famous and other 1 percenters.

[Katya Mullethov]

59. Real 1%ers prefer a machinists pien anway

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2011/10/feud_hells_angels_vagos_motorcycle_gangs_starbucks.php

[AtheistCrusader]

48. Helps to have it before you need it.

Can you correctly estimate who might need such a thing at any given time? Terrorists come in all shapes, sizes, and political stripes. Guarantee I can speak my mind in ways that might put me in real physical danger. Do I have to wait until my windows are shot out, or must I hold my tongue on self-evident cruelty and stupidity? Not to the same degree as Diane, but I have been physically accosted for simple, lawfully stated beliefs before.

I prefer to live free, call evil what it is, and be prepared for potential consequences. I don't have to kick a hornets nest on purpose, of course, but i'm sure as hell not going to cower in fear.

[iverglas]

70. "I prefer to live free, call evil what it is"

Yeah, me too.

It's why I like living in a place where people who don't think I should be doing it aren't very likely to have handguns.

Yeah, long guns work for the purpose. Marc Lépine knew that when he went hunting feminists. The only other political shooting by long gun I can think of in recent memory, well, that was somebody from south of the border with his south of the border gun:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2009/01/13/f-abortion-timeline.html

November 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis is the first Canadian doctor shot for performing abortions. He's hit by a sniper while eating breakfast in his Vancouver home. Two similar shootings follow in 1995 and 1997, first in Ontario, then Manitoba. None of the attacks is fatal. James Kopp, who is later convicted in New York state for the fatal shooting of a doctor who performed abortions in Buffalo, is named as a suspect in some of the Canadian shootings.

(Kopp was extradited to the US from France on assurances the death penalty would not be sought. We get him when you're done with him ...)

Anyhow, it's also why I don't do things like post on the net in my real name. I read the stuff said about me by gun militants down there on line (and you should have seen the stuff said by anti-choice militants some years back -- the funniest, except I wasn't actually laughing, being that I had hacked into someone's computer and threatened to shoot her kids, stupid woman, eh? I have no idea how to hack into computers ...), and I have no idea who reads it. So my risk analysis says my solution is a lot wiser than hauling a gun around.

But frankly, your dragging that into it is really just silly. Really.

[AtheistCrusader]

73. I appreciate that risk assessment.

I wouldn't call it 'fear' in the context that you are easily frightened or anything, but it's an easy to understand fear. Speaking the truth can really get you screwed in some conditions.


My point was, The Senator could well have been killed, and would have been unarmed at the time of the attack. If we predicate the issuance of a permit (which isn't exactly what you said, but seems a fair paraphrase, correct me if I am wrong) upon need AFTER such an attack, the victim has to 'get lucky' at least once.

I feel people should, if they choose to, be free to arm themselves. At least in the home. Carrying around daily? I'm willing to negotiate. ;)

(I don't think liability insurance, legal and tactical instruction requirements are unreasonable)

[Callisto32]

54. So you aren't a prohibitionist....

just an elitist.

[iverglas]

69. so you aren't a person of integrity

just a demagogue.

[SteveM]

64. Some poor folks in "gun-free" public housing have had that experience.

Sorry, but you're elitist approach doesn't wash.

[iverglas]

68. really???

Some poor folks in "gun-free" public housing have had that experience.

They've been targeted for death by a violent political cell that had carried out dozens of bombings of public places, placed a bomb at their home and shot out all the windows of their house???

I have to watch FoxNews more often I guess.

Or maybe they got their jobs because the person ahead of them got shot dead on the job.

Or maybe both.


Sorry, but you're elitist approach doesn't wash.

Well it's lucky you apologized in advance there for your sad little attempt at character assassination. Now apologize to yourself for making yourself look like a crappy little demagogue.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoyt]

7. She's got a good point.

F&F is a minor SNAFU that is detracting from what we ought to be debating when it comes to guns. While mistakes were made, 30 gun traffickers were indicted and more will be.

More importantly, people will see just how easy it is to traffic guns in this country. Maybe people will begin to ask why we allow this crap, notwithstanding objections from lobbyists, right wing groups, and a few Democrats who value guns over most other issues.

[AzWorker]

12. minor SNAFU? seriously?

Two dead Americans and UNTOLD dead Mexican citizens hardly qualify as a minor SNAFU...


"F&F is a minor SNAFU that is detracting from what we ought to be debating when it comes to guns. While mistakes were made, 30 gun traffickers were indicted and more will be.

More importantly, people will see just how easy it is to traffic guns in this country. Maybe people will begin to ask why we allow this crap, notwithstanding objections from lobbyists, right wing groups, and a few Democrats who value guns over most other issues."

[ileus]

13. consider it carbon footprint reduction with a benefit of AWB renewal.

[Katya Mullethov]

17. If we refit the Solyndra plant to build AK47's

And then diverted the resulting IRONRIVEROFGUNSFUELINGBORDERVIOLENCE on its way to Mexico and all points South to generate clean , affordable , and renewable hydroelectric power , you would see an immediate reduction in Americas runaway carbon footprint . How easy it is to get the guns would also become obvious to even the most casual observer and this should allow our hard working ATFBIDEAICE agents to acquire the tools needed to better complete the colossal task at hand . Namely , reigning in rogue FFLs like Lone Wolf Trading , who are the LEADING SOURCE of cartel guns bought wiht FBI money .

[ileus]

19. Yeah...what he/she said.

[Hoyt]

16. So, now, you guys are saying guns do kill. I think the drug cartels would have gotten guns

from somewhere -- whether easily from this country or elsewhere. No, I don't consider murdered Hispanics a minor issue. If you'd like to explore why further, will be glad to do so.

I do consider gun escalation a major issue and I applaud any effort by the government to restrict them. I applaud the 30+ indictments that have come from this sting. More will come and we have learned invaluable info. At some point the whole story will be released. I support our government taking steps to stop trafficking, no matter how much the so-called "gun culture" screams and whines.

In the meantime, those for whom guns are so important -- even those who say they are for Democrats -- can continue trying to damage the Obama administration.

[oneshooter]

39. "30+ indictments " but no convictions. n/t

[Hoyt]

42. Yet.

[Katya Mullethov]

44. Ahahahahaha-haaaaaaa

Not yet , nope .

[Iktomiwicasa]

76. "can continue trying to damage the Obama administration."

Strange world you must live in not to see that the damage done by this F&F goat fuck was done by the administration.

[Tejas]

14. I bet you eat a lot of omelets.

"F&F is a minor SNAFU"


Feel free to send a copy of your post to the Terry family.

[Abin Sur]

22. Crow, more likely.

[Union Scribe]

49. Judging by all his crap that's posted in this forum

He mostly eats crazy.

[rl6214]

30. Typical apologist BS

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DissedByBush]

47. Hundreds were indicted BEFORE we started letting guns into Mexico

Letting them go into Mexico untraced, hoping to eventually find them at murder scenes, is unconscionable.

[blm]

11. The BIGGEST point about Fast and Furious is that it continued Bush's 2006 Wide Receiver covert op

and that Bush's people at ATF had no interest in informing Obama's people in the hierarchy until 2010.

And let's be COMPLETELY HONEST. Bushes have been running secret ops for over 4 decades now. Wide Receiver is probably one of the least offensive. Sh!t, you know what Bush was trading in during BCCI and IranContra? BCCI was the grandfather of all terror-funding banks, and Poppy Bush was in the thick of it. AQ Khan was being funded through BCCI. Name ring a bell? Nuclear scientist. The pride of Pakistan.

Fast and Furious is teensy weensy and Congress knows it. Congress also knows that it will never reach far enough into the story to uncover the actual whos, whys and hows of it.

[Tejas]

15. "Fast and Furious is teensy weensy"

I'd say it's the fuse that will blow the powderkeg through the stratosphere.


"Fast and Furious is teensy weensy and Congress knows it. Congress also knows that it will never reach far enough into the story to uncover the actual whos, whys and hows of it."

We'll see about that. Holder thought it was over months ago.

[oneshooter]

24. Holder "never saw the memo"............

:sarcasm:

[blm]

53. The point you failed to grasp is that it is BUSH'S covert op that EXCLUDED Obama's WH from the loop

and they probably only did so when they figured it was about to go public in 2010.

And it is also apparent that it is a continuation of the secretive operations standards of Poppy Bush who has set up even MORE egregious treasons around the globe and has for DECADES.

Do you DELIBERATELY aim blame at Obama administration to distract from the actual PERPETRATORS of this operation? Why excuse those who set up this operation in order to pile the lion's share of the blame onto an administration who went UNINFORMED of the operation until last year?

[Lurks Often]

57. Nice rationalization

I find it amazing the lengths people will go to explain away the corruption and criminal offenses perpetrated by an administration they voted for, because the administration they voted for couldn't POSSIBLY do something like this.

On the microscopic chance your premise is true, that merely emphasizes how incompetent Holder is and if Holder is that incompetent, why hasn't the President asked for his resignation?

[blm]

63. That's absurd - you would need to pretend that either Wide Receiver didn't exist or

that Bush's people TOLD Obama's people about it during the transition of 2008-9. So far, all testimony so far has proven that Wide Receiver DID exist and that Obama's people were kept out of the loop till 2010.

And Holder should have known - that I agree with the detractors even as you go overboard and blame Obama WH more than the actual BushInc perpetrators of the covert op. Holder SHOULD have known because he knew how much was covered up during IranContra by both Bush1 and later Clinton that also led to the pardon of Mark Rich.

Fast and Furious is just another continuation of GHWBush's secret ops, of which there are probably at least a dozen still going on around the world today and concentrated around regions rich in oil, water and DRUGS.

No Dem president will ever wield enough power to bring down Poppy Bush's cabal of global fascist cronies.

I guess if you only recently became engaged in the issue of government's covert operations you could see Fast and Furious as the biggest deal in the world, but, for those of us who've been plugged in to what this country's government elite of Bush family's fascist loyalists have been doing covertly since WW2, Fast and Furious is....yes...teensy weensy, in the overall scheme of their machinations.

[friendly_iconoclast]

75. At *best*, your scenario paints Holder as utterly clueless. And that's being charitable.

But leaked emails have shown that Holder knew about F&F before he publicly stated he did. So he was mendacious, not clueless.

[Lurks Often]

78. Like I said, rationalization

"No Dem president will ever wield enough power to bring down Poppy Bush's cabal of global fascist cronies."

It's Conspiracy Time again!! There is always some sort of conspiracy to explain away the actions of a person you voted for, when they did something you disagree with.


The government has always conducted covert operations regardless of which party is in power

[Katya Mullethov]

79. Image all the toner they wasted

Just to "protect George Bushes ass" .

[blm]

81. Always. And also true that Fast and Furious continued Wide Receiver, with Obama WH brought into

loop in 2010. So how is it that the actual origin of the operation gets the free pass from you in your zeal to make it all Obama's deal?

Got any cute throwaway lines to answer that simple question?

[beevul]

82. You are misled. And just plain wrong.

Headlined "Meeting of the attorney general with Mexican Attorney General Medina Mora," the briefing paper informed Mukasey that the tactic had been tried unsuccessfully but that the ATF wanted to try again and wanted Mukasey to persuade Mexico's attorney general to provide a team of corruption-free Mexican agents who would assist in the effort. Perhaps implied but not fully detailed in this document was the reason for the failure _ that Mexican authorities south of the border fell down on the job, claiming they didn't see the vehicle carrying the guns that the ATF agents had alerted them to.

http://azstarnet.com/news/national/ap-exclusive-second-bush-era-gun-smuggling-probe/article_02a80836-5f2b-51ce-a67c-06a0833b0181.html


On the other hand, where fast and furious is concerned, we have this:

Soon the scandalous truth came out. It was so shocking that the atf agents couldn’t believe it. When it proved out, they were profoundly embarrassed about their country. They were deeply apologetic to their Mexican counterparts. They scrambled to distance themselves from what had happened. “I hope they understand that this was kept secret from most of the atf, including me and my colleagues in Mexico,” said Darren Gil, the atf attaché to Mexico.

http://www.thetrumpet.com/?q=8786.7541.0.0


Gil said when he first queried ATF officials in Phoenix, where the program was run, they told him the bare minimum. According to Gil, George Gillett Jr., then the acting special agent in charge, said, "We have an ongoing investigation…. Thanks for calling."

He also questioned ATF headquarters in Washington, Gil said, and was told, "They have it under control."

As he learned what had gone wrong, Gil said, he realized that ATF officials did not want Pascual to know about the operation, and that ATF feared the Mexican government would find out and lodge a formal complaint.

Gil recalled "screaming and yelling" with his Washington superiors. "It's inconceivable to me to even allow weapons to knowingly cross an international border," he said.

Gil and Canino said they later were advised that senior ATF leaders, including acting Director Kenneth Melson, as well as Department of Justice officials and the U.S. attorney's office in Phoenix, all had approved Fast and Furious. Melson said it was "providing some good intelligence" on gun smuggling.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/26/nation/la-na-fast-furious-cable-20110726



Heres Darren Gil in front of the whole world:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7360785n


So really, when you talk about "wide receiver" versus "gunwalker", you're talking apples and oranges, since NO MECHANISM was used, attempted, or even discussed where gunwalker is concerned.

In fact, David Voth (iirc) was said to have been "giddy" when F&F weapons began turning up at crime scenes:

"The supervisor of Operation Fast and Furious was “jovial, if not, not giddy but just delighted about” walked guns showing up at crime scenes in Mexico according to an ATF agent."

http://oversight.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1341:report-four-atf-agents-working-on-controversial-operation-fast-and-furious-tell-their-story&catid=22:releasesstatements


Apples and oranges.

[Lurks Often]

83. Post 82 sums it up quite well,

but I'm sure you will find a way to excuse the behavior of AG Holder and the fact that this was either allowed to continue or re-started (depending on which story you believe).

[blm]

84. I never said I excused Holder, as I clearly stated he should have known

based on the covert ops that had many of the same tactics used and that I am certain he DID have plenty of access to information: IranContra and BCCI.

[Lurks Often]

85. Then why hasn't the President

asked for Holder's resignation?

[gejohnston]

58. So ATF continued and never briefed Holder?

because if it went public in 2010, Obama would get the blame and made to look like it was stunt to justify a new AWB?
I can picture Rove actually thinking up something like that.

[Simo 1939_1940]

87. "I can picture Rove actually thinking up something

like that."

Exactly. It would a page directly from his playbook.

[DissedByBush]

46. "the problem is anybody can walk in and buy anything"

Especially when gun store owners who know they are facing a straw purchase are ordered by the ATF to make that purchase that would normally be illegal.

[Iktomiwicasa]

51. This whole...

...cluster fuck is a push to gain support for more gun control.

[AzWorker]

61. Yes...and the people are seeing it for what it is.

More and more folks are becoming aware of the ATF/DOJ scandal and are not happy with ATF/DOJ and I'm talking about folks that are not even gun owners, just Americans that see this for what it was.

[Oneka]

86. Lacking that support, the ATF

just added further "gun control" anyway.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/61159256/ATF-Multiple-Rifle-Sale-Reporting-Requirement-Letter

Can't wait to see how this plays out in court.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

55. never mind.