NRA Blocks Effort to Prevent Military Suicides

[onehandle]

With the NRA, the principle of blocking any attempts to document or control gun ownership is always much more important than actual human lives - even if they're the lives of our war veterans. Let that sink in, because this might be the single most cynical thing they've done yet:

So it makes sense for military counselors to talk to at-risk active-duty soldiers about owning a gun. No, that’s against the law. A rule in last year’s National Defense Authorization Act — backed by the NRA of course — prohibits such conversations. The NRA was outraged, apparently, that a Kansas army base wanted soldiers to register privately owned weapons. Oh the horror! Next thing you know they’ll just take rifles away from combat soldiers and replace them with ACLU cards.

A new report, which you can read about on Think Progress, recommends that Congress repeal the provision. But I doubt many members of Congress have the courage to stand up to the NRA on this. In fact, the NRA is trying to make the situation even worse. It worked with Senator Jim Inhofe, the Oklahoma Republican, to add language to the military spending bill that would prohibit the Defense Department from “issuing any requirement, or collecting or recording any information” relating to legal gun ownership.

Of course. Because, as Andrew Rosenthal points out, anything approaching a reasonable compromise will put NRA lobbyists out of work, and who wants to give up that cushy gig?

http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/nra-blocked-effort-prevent-military-s

Greedy Lobbyists. Nothing more.

[Major Nikon]

1. Here's how nutty their illustrious leader is...

http://wonkette.com/453659/nra-chief-obama-trying-to-steal-your-guns-by-not-stealing-your-guns

[spanone]

4. lapierre is out of his fucking mind

[TheCowsCameHome]

6. +1 gazillion

[fightthegoodfightnow]

60. Agree

...completely

[BiggJawn]

8. My local range club requires NRA membership.

Which is what's keeping me from joining them. I'd rather drive an hour to shoot at a state-operated DNR range than the one 2 miles from my front door.

[onehandle]

10. That's a virtually Stalinist requirement. A surcharge. A tax.

I wonder if the comrades that run the place have any idea.

[BiggJawn]

11. I think they do it for insurance purposes.

Which I understand, "Nitwit Republicans, Armed" probably has economical group-rate insurance for clubs and ranges.

Still makes it like having to belong to the KKK to drive your 4X4 at the local mudhole...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

42. Meanwhile....

....the NRA is fighting the rights of businesses like bars and restaurants to ban guns on their private property so their insurance doesn't go up.

[gejohnston]

43. they are?

where? I don't picture it, you don't waste resources on losing and pointless campaigns.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

45. Virginia

....their home state, among others...and they have won.

[gejohnston]

48. you misread it

Virginia law prohibited CCWs from entering the premises armed. The law is now that you may go to such places as long as you do not drink, as far as the state is concerned. The business is free to forbid anything they want. In some states, Texas for example, ignoring the sign is violating the terms of your CCW and the law.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

55. Insurance Premiums Went UP

...just as predicted by the other NRA which was my point.

[gejohnston]

59. you got this where

did it in other states? Did the places that posted signs get a discount? Are the law changes even the reason?

[RSillsbee]

64. He's jerking your chain

He means the National Restaurant Association

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. It is for insurance purposes. Arguably that can be almost Stalinistic in the US

[ObamaFTW2012]

31. I just shoot out in the woods

We have a designated area with dirt backstops on private land that we use. No range fees, no being forced to buy crappy reloads or overpriced new ammo, no stupid range officers yelling about how fast we fire or trying to give "pointers" on how to shoot better, and no "Obama's comin' fer yer guns" rants while shoving NRA applications in your face when you sign in.

[baldguy]

2. Greedy isn't the half of it. Unprincipled, insane, knowingly evil...

[hlthe2b]

3. K&R

I can certainly understand and respect liberal/progressive gun advocates. I can not understand and respect those who so blindly ignore the despicable tactics of the NRA.

"With the NRA, the principle of blocking any attempts to document or control gun ownership is always much more important than actual human lives - even if they're the lives of our war veterans."

yup... EXACTLY. :eyes:

[Turbineguy]

Is the NRA aware

that people who shoot themselves never purchase guns afterwards?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. Are you aware that the NRA is *NOT* the gun manufacturers trade association?

[baldguy]

9. Of course you mean that the NRA *PRETENDS* it doesn't represent gun manufacturers.

It's just another front group for the GOP & the corporatocracy. Just like the Tea Party.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. No I mean there is an actual trade association for them and it is not the NRA

[ObamaFTW2012]

32. The NRA is funded by and acts on the behalf of nearly 4M private citizens

Some businesses do support the NRA financially, but they are small potatoes compared to the private citizens. I was an NRA member once, but not anymore. I couldn't take any more of their constant badgering for donations and/or life memberships, and all the junk mail trying to sell me useless junk with their logo on it. But, they do a great job of focusing on a singleminded goal (gun rights) and working tirelessly to defend and/or advance it.

And while the anti-gun crowd likes to paint the NRA as another branch of the RNC, the truth is that the NRA will back any candidate regardless of party affiliation, based solely upon that candidate's stance on gun rights issues. Unfortunately for the Democrats, who usually embrace an illogically un-liberal anti-gun ideology, that means the NRA will often back their opponent, who is usually a pro-gun (or at least "not anti-gun") Republican. That isn't always the case. I have seen the NRA back a Democrat over a Republican, but only in local or state elections, and I think that's due to the mostly pro-gun atmosphere of the South.

[baldguy]

33. That's like saying Faux Snooze are nothing but an honest group of impartial journalists.

The very idea is ludicrous.

The NRA acts on behalf of the GOP and extremist RWers.

[gejohnston]

34. do they even have

journalists at Faux? I always figured it was mostly talking heads talking about stuff they know nothing about broken up by a couple of minutes of reciting whatever was bought from a wire service like UPI, now owned by the Moonies.

If they get enough voting members to depose Ted and Grover, that would be a good thing we agree? Or are you saying the election is rigged?

[ObamaFTW2012]

35. It is nothing like that at all.

If you want to keep your head buried in the sand, go ahead. The truth is there, whether you agree to believe it or not.

[iverglas]

13. um ............ no

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. That is only because you have chosen not to look

You are so good with Google, I am sure you can find it if you want to.

[Major Nikon]

24. Here's what I found with google

http://wonkette.com/453659/nra-chief-obama-trying-to-steal-your-guns-by-not-stealing-your-guns

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. That has nothing to do with the NRA not being the trade association for manufacturers

[Major Nikon]

67. Perhaps, but it has everything to do with them being a tool of the right wing

...and not to mention crazy as a shithouse rat.

I'm thinking that's much worse than them being any sort of trade association.

[Major Nikon]

23. It's actually quite charitable to assume they are

Otherwise all you're left with is a group of grabastic ideologues who subvert the political process for their own nutty ideas.

[TheCowsCameHome]

5. NRA: hey, nobody interferes with our business.

Screw the NRA.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. What business do you think the NRA is in? It is not the trade association for gun manufacturers

[TheCowsCameHome]

26. Oh my, certainly not.

*guffaw*

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. More cluelessness...there actually is a trade association for firearms manufacturers

its the National Shooting Sports Foundation. (http://www.nssf.org/Industry/)

NRA is a single issue political organization that also provides insurance coverage, safety & advanced training, and instructor certification.

You may only see the lobbying, but there is quite a bit more to it.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

47. NRA doesn't get gun manufacturers' money?

That's funny.

[gejohnston]

53. Where does Brady and VPC money come from?

it certainly is not from any grassroots supporters.

[PavePusher]

65. If you are insinuating that it does, please demonstrate from where....

and what it goes to. Amounts would be helpful too.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

69. Might get some....

...but it gets far more from its members who come from every political and socioeconomic background.

[gejohnston]

12. redundant thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x476342

I use different news sources on different issues. When they show a pattern of bullshit on any issue they lose credibility on that issue. When it comes to guns, C&R and Think Progress has put out demonstrably false and poorly written crap more than once. Think back to "Al Qaida says you can get machine guns with no questions asked at gun shows, so it must be true" and "we were against Bush's terror watch list (because they contain no suspected terrorists) before we were for it"

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hack89]

19. self delete

[aikoaiko]

20. I wonder how civilian counselors treat their paitents without the requirement to register guns?

Really this is an attempt by anti-gun militants to use the sad deaths of military suicides to push their agenda.

If they really cared about suicidal servicemen and women they would seek an exception for counselors instead of opposed the entire rule.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

41. What a Load of Bull

..... most shrinks don't get a paycheck from the arms industry. Most patients don't get a gun from the same employer.

[gejohnston]

46. those guns are

in the unit armory, not their house. Those shrinks don't get their paychecks from the "arms industry". The Swiss and the Israelis are the only militaries that keep assault rifles and machine guns at home that I know of.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

50. Missing point

Unlike the private sector, both soldier and shrink are paid for by the same government that arms both.

[gejohnston]

52. shrinks are docs

and like chaplains can not be armed without violating their Geneva Convention status. DoD civilians, if armed, become mercenaries under the (fourth Geneva Convention IIRC) conventions and may be summary executed. In other words, if you work for Blackwater, you have no rights under the conventions.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

58. Right

....and telling your shrink you are gay never got any soldier kicked of the army....doctor-patient relationship and all.

[gejohnston]

61. that is relevant how?

maybe it did not. None of the docs I know would turn you in. I worked for an officer that everyone knew was gay, but none of us gave a shit. When DADT came out, it was interesting listening to the retirees I worked with, who basically knew who was gay and who was not. Few cared. An occasional commander would freak and call the cops. That was rare, but still too common. Most of the time, none of us gave a shit.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

70. Doctor-patient confidentiality...

...does not apply to active duty service members, especially when the medical or psychiatric issue at hand hinders the functionality of the soldier.

I see you're still completely uneducated as to the facts of whatever "arguments" you vomit forth.

[aikoaiko]

49. Do you really think that Colt, FN herstal. or Beretta pays for military psychotherapy?

Or do you mean some other arms industry?


The firearms that military service men and women get to do their jobs are highly controlled and not the guns at issue with this law. This law addressed gun owned privately and kept off base, if I understand correctly.

[gejohnston]

54. that is indeed the case

the law addresses privately owned guns, not military issue.

[AtheistCrusader]

21. How many times does this bullshit need to be posted?

[gejohnston]

22. correction

that a Kansas army base wanted soldiers to register privately owned weapons. Oh the horror! Next thing you know they’ll just take rifles away from combat soldiers and replace them with ACLU cards.

It has been my experience that dishonesty and hyperbole are often companions.

All privately owned guns in base housing are registered at all US bases. Privately owned guns of people in the barracks is stored in the unit armory when not in use. That is true of both US and Canadian militarilies. The Fort Riley rule would require solders to register not only their firearms even if living in off base housing but also the private firearms of any family member anywhere in Kansas. Rosenthal forgot to mention that.
On a practical level, the base would enforce it how? The Constitution and the UCMJ prohibits commanders going on fishing expeditions looking for unregistered guns in private residences on or off base. If some commander thinks he can order CID, AFOSI, NCIS, or any military police to show up at someone's house on or off base without a warrant from a military magistrate, will get a "fuck you" from those agencies.
http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=99665

[hack89]

25. The law has an exception when there is concern that the soldier will hurt himself or others

(a) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in subsection (c), the Secretary of Defense shall not prohibit, issue any requirement relating to, or collect or record any information relating to the otherwise lawful acquisition, possession, ownership, carrying, or other use of a privately owned firearm, privately owned ammunition, or another privately owned weapon by a member of the Armed Forces or civilian employee of the Department of Defense on property that is not—
(1) a military installation; or
(2) any other property that is owned or operated by the Department of Defense.

(c) RULE OF CONSTRUCTION.— Subsection (a) shall not be construed to limit the authority of the Secretary of Defense to—
(1) create or maintain records relating to, or regulate the possession, carrying, or other use of a firearm, ammunition, or other weapon by a member of the Armed Forces or civilian employee of the Department of Defense while—
(A) engaged in official duties on behalf of the Department of Defense; or
(B) wearing the uniform of an Armed Force; or
(2) create or maintain records relating to an investigation , prosecution, or adjudication of an alleged violation of law (including regulations not prohibited under subsection (a)), including matters related to whether a member of the Armed Forces constitutes a threat to the member or others.

http://www.ncdsv.org/images/PL111-383_IkeSkeltonNatlDefenseAuthorizationAct_FY2.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. Few here apparantly realize the long arm the military has over soldiers

Even off post the have any number of rules and regulations they must follow, some of which would seem silly and/or intrusive to civilians. To bring a firearm on post requires some form of local registration. Some bases want it stored in the armory as well. Similar demands have been made on soldiers living off post by certain commands, which is one of the reasons the laws were passed.

There is a story told about an NCIS special agent insisting he could come into the off base house of a sailor who was deployed to search for stolen property without a warrant. He was forcibly reminded of his limited authority off base by the wife and a double load of bird shot. Don't know if it was true or not, but it was told to me by an active NCIS Special Agent.

The military recently commenced mandatory all hands (civilian and military) training on suicide prevention. Always wonder how effective such things are, but the leadership is aware of the problem.

[gejohnston]

30. In my experience,

registered if living on post family housing, stored in armory if living in the barracks.
That NCIS agent should have lost his job.
The UCMJ does not trump the Constitution. The Articles of War in the brown shoe days, that was a different matter. The NCIS, AFOSI, CID would need a warrant for even a barracks room (there is a legal difference between search and inspection.) Warrants must be signed by a military judge or designated magistrate. In the Air Force, that is usually the Support Group commander.
Edit to add: local commanders have no control over any of these agencies. Their chain of command (like that of defense lawyers and judges in the Air Force) are completely different.

[jpak]

36. NRA = bags of flaming douche

yup

[krispos42]

37. ACLU Blocks Efforts to Prevent Terrorist Attacks

With the ACLU, the principle of blocking any attempts to document or control personal association is always much more important than actual human lives - even if they're the lives of our children.


Italicized partisan text here



Of course. Because, as George Soros points out, anything approaching a reasonable compromise will put ACLU lobbyists out of work, and who wants to give up that cushy gig?

[applegrove]

38. The NRA is sick.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

71. Why do you say this? N/T

[gejohnston]

39. one question

in the original thread, it was unit commanders, in this one it is military shrinks. Which is it?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

40. Typical NRA

...contrary to what they say, they are not about protecting lives.

[hack89]

68. Except for the fact that the law does not say what the OP says it does

the actual law has an exception when there is concern the soldier is a potential threat to himself or others.

The OP is typical gun grabbing hyperbole.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

44. NRA Protects the Rights of Terrorists

What has the NRA done to keep guns out of the hands of terrorists?

[gejohnston]

51. terrorists don't go to Jack's sporting goods

and you can't buy machine guns at gun shows with no questions asked. Just because some scribbled some nonsense that could not make a high school newspaper and put it on Crooks and Liars does not make it so.
The hypocritical bullshit about Bush's watch list, that does not have any actual suspected terrorists suspects on it, is just that. Bullshit.
Seriously, when was the last time a terrorist used a gun in the US? What do you suggest the NRA do about the machine guns, rocket launchers, real assault rifles, mortars, grenades, getting to the drug cartels through Mexico's southern border and abroad?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

56. Seriously?

Do you think the families of the Va Tech slaughter consider the shooter a terrorist?

[gejohnston]

62. using DoD definiton

no he was not. The families can think what they want. Do you seriously think a law would have changed anything?

[ObamaFTW2012]

76. Gee whiz,

some people feel like Bloomberg and his cronies buying guns ILLEGALLY at gun shows are just well dressed gang members. Does that mean they are? I don't think so, but my opinion of Bloomberg isn't far off from how I view gang members.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

57. Try Answering the Question

What has the NRA done to keep guns out of the hands of terrorists?

[gejohnston]

63. Other than supporting most of the current federal laws

that are not theater, what would you like to hear? What is Brady doing? Paying some clown too much money to write half baked op eds in Huff Po, and count the money they get from a couple of rich people and one foundation, most of which goes to salaries. How about working to prevent the problem to begin with? Like better mental health.

[PavePusher]

66. What do they need to be doing?

They run training programs for responsible gun use. They promote the ability for Citizens to defend themselves from criminals (terrorists being a sub-set of criminals y'see...).

Did they at some point receive a government charter that empowers/enables them to "keep guns out of the hands of terrorists"? To the best of my knowledge they have no mandate to do so, and no power to do so, other than the two I listed above.

What do you recommend they do?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

72. What CAN they do?

The NRA is neither legislative body nor enforcement agency. They have no legal authority to do squat.

Your question is akin to asking what AAA has done to keep cars out of the hands of terrorists...

[SteveM]

74. You haven't explained how the "NRA supports the rights of terrorists."

[SteveM]

73. Please explain how this is done? Provide links. If you can. nt

[oneshooter]

75. The real question is what have YOU done? n/t

[pipoman]

77. Really?

Why would it be their job to do anything about guns in the hands of terrorists? That is the job of the several federal and many state law enforcement. The NRA's job is to teach firearm/shooting safety and training at all levels of expertise, from beginner children to expert and law enforcement. Another job is to protect through legislative influence and use of the judicial system, a liberal interpretation of a civil liberty, to wit: The Second Amendment. I don't deny they are "out there" politically at times. You will however find that they usually pick the candidate who has the best record on a liberal interpretation of said civil liberty. In the last election for instance, they most assuredly would have backed Bill Richardson over McCant.

Of coarse if you happen to be one of those who thinks the Bush "terrorist watch list" is just wonderful..well, just say so..

What I find perplexing is why any "liberal" or even "progressive" would not back a liberal interpretation of ALL civil rights/liberties??