Man killed by his own concealed weapon

[jpak]

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2011/nov/18/tdmet02-man-whose-gun-discharged-killing-him-had-c-ar-1467500/

A Spotsylvania County man with a valid concealed-weapon permit died after a semi-automatic pistol without an external safety discharged as he tried to adjust the weapon, which was tucked into his waistband, investigators have concluded.

The 45-year-old man was sitting in the front seat of his family's minivan in a shopping center parking lot on Sunday when his .40-caliber Glock discharged, authorities said.

"For some reason, maybe for comfort, he reached out and went to adjust it," said Spotsylvania sheriff's Capt. Liz Scott. "The detective thinks that in doing so — in just grabbing it — he inadvertently grabbed the trigger."

<snip>

The incident is at least the second in Virginia in 15 months in which a concealed-carry permit holder accidentally shot himself in public.

<more>

[fascisthunter]

1. now that's defense

[jeepnstein]

2. We call that getting "Glocked"

It can happen. I have a friend at the Sheriff's Office who shot himself in the leg after a bit of clothing got caught in the trigger guard of his weapon as he was holstering it. BOOM! Followed by a very humbling trip to the emergency room.

There are ways to carry IWB safely. With a Glock that means taking a few extra precautions like not messing with the weapon once it's in the holster. And it had darn well be a good holster. Carrying a Glock in the appendix position is suicide.

[jmg257]

7. That's what i am wondering - did this unfortunate clown have a holster?

How did his finger get to the trigger? Did he take the gun from a holster? Did he just have it stuffed in there?

Another reason I don't like Glocks.

[jeepnstein]

10. Possibly, yes.

The holster in this picture is what I use to appendix carry. It is exceedingly dangerous to try to holster the weapon with the holster already in place. The way you do it is to place the weapon in the holster and then put the whole shebang into place. If you draw the weapon for any reason you simply do not re-holster. That keeps you from pulling the trigger and making a huge mess. I see guys doing appendix carry all the time who place the holster first and then holster the weapon. Once I draw their attention to what they just did by doing it that way they have a Eureka moment. It's just one of my pet peeves when it comes to gun safety.

As you can see the weapon I carry that way has no safeties at all. It will go bang every time the trigger is pulled. So the trick is to keep the trigger from getting pulled. The only safety device that prevents that is the holster, when used properly.

If you're going to CCW you ought to at least learn how to do it safely.

[jmg257]

15. And that revolver probably has a long 12# pull instead of the short light

trigger on a typical Glock.

I carried a P99C-QA for a bit - pre-cocked striker fired like the Glock, with a short 7# trigger pull, but it had a decocker push button on it so it was real nice for 'deactivating'.

Tried inside carry - not the most comfortable, especially when sitting.

[jeepnstein]

19. It's not that bad.

While it does have a long pull it's very smooth and not terribly heavy. It's a fighting gun so I don't have a problem with it being a bit on the heavy side trigger wise. I qualify with it on my ankle but carry it appendix much of the time.

J Frames are comfy for appendix carry, autos not so much. The bulk of the weapon is below the belt line with my setup. You'll notice that holster isn't a typical J-Frame Uncle Mikes. It's actually a 1911 model that I shortened a bit. That setup is the result of talking to firearms instructors and experienced shooters who biased their methods towards safety.

[Old Codger]

14. Safest way

And only truly safe way to carry a Glock is empty chamber...I carry one and would never ever carry with a round in the chamber....Might take a second to chamber a round if needed but I would rather take that chance than shoot myself... Probably the really worst carry choice actually.

[jeepnstein]

20. That defeats the purpose of the design.

A Glock is safe as long as it's used in a suitable holster in good condition. I'd never carry one IWB. You need a clear path to the holster for a safe re-holster. If I were carrying one concealed I'd consider a paddle holster and place the weapon in it before putting on the holster. You can't snag your shirt tails that way, like my buddy did last summer.

[jmg257]

21. Why would you carry one then?

I never liked them for other reasons, but if you know there are shortcomings, why bother?

[Old Codger]

26. It is what

I have at this time (got great buy), they are very reliable, it is small enough and light enough even with hi-cap mag, next carry weapon will not be Glock.. and if I don't have time to load I will be in trouble but not as much as if I didn't have it at all... Also it is not that much of a drawback really. BUT I recommend something else for most..and it will be replaced soon as I decide what I want and can afford.

[jmg257]

28. Makes sense...they were always a good buy.

Got myself a couple way back when for $300 each, but just didn't like them enough to keep them.

NO argument they are VERY reliable.

Good luck with your 'upgrade!'

[spin]

23. My son in law carries his Glock the same way ...

The obvious drawback is that in an emergency you may not be able to chamber a round with one hand if your other hand is engaged in fending off an attacker.

I normally carry a .38 S&W snub nosed double action only revolver in a high quality pocket holster. If I carry a semi-auto pistol I carry a Colt .45 auto cocked and locked with a round in the chamber aka Condition One. Once again I carry the weapon in a high quality holster.

If you are open carrying a 1911 style firearm cocked and locked some people will be greatly disturbed as they fear this is a very dangerous mode of carry. It's not and since I only carry concealed, my choice of how to carry my pistol causes no concern. Not only is there a thumb safety on the Colt 1911 style handguns which has to be disengaged before the weapon will fire, there is also a grip safety that has to be depressed. The only drawback is that you might forget to disengage the safety in a life and death situation but practice should make this unlikely. It is also possible that if someone does grab your firearm, he may not realize that he has to drop the safety.

[RSillsbee]

48. I have two words for you

Tueller Drill

[one-eyed fat man]

22. Goes to show what you get

I'd say mostly you are right, but here is a case the gun was already holstered when he turned to do the seatbelt and his Glock bit him in the ass...literally!

SAFETY WARNING! Worn Leather Holsters Can Cause Accidental Discharges!

“What the hell was that?!?” she said. It took me a half a second to realize that my gun had just gone off…on my hip…in its holster. My wife and I had just finished breakfast at our favorite café and got into the car.
Me being the passenger, I rotated my torso to the left to fasten my seatbelt like I always do. When I straightened again, my Glock 19 discharged, blowing a 9mm hole through my pants, underwear, the leather seat and bottom of the car’s door frame.
The bullet nicked my hip, but the wound is nothing a bandage couldn’t cover. So what went wrong? Guns never go “Bang” all by themselves.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/itstactical/5547242668/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/itstactical/5547242684/

Oddly enough, the Glock's popularity with many agencies, aside from the very attractive prices Glock offers, is its simplicity. The M1911 is considered "too dangerous" and it's proscribed by many of those same departments. The saying that the Glock is favored by those who "have" to carry a gun, while the 1911 is favored by those who "want" to carry a gun plays a role when police departments or armies are looking to arm reluctant recruits and minimally qualify them. The 1911 has been in use over a hundred years and is not handled as cavalierly by its users as the Glock seems to be.

[atreides1]

3. What an idiot

And why was there a round in the chamber in the first place?

[formercia]

4. So he could get off that critical first round.

Oh, wait, he's not Critical, he's dead.

[jmg257]

6. Usually is when carrying. Usually one keeps their finger off the trigger.

Another Glock incident (Plexico Burris) due to someone adjusting one's piece.

Just plain foolish.

[AtheistCrusader]

9. Normal to carry in condition zero.

Granted, I carry a Springfield, which has both the Glock's trigger safety, as well as a grip safety, which keeps people like me from getting 'glocked' if something somehow finds its way into the trigger guard. (Which should not happen with my retention holster anyway)

[We_Have_A_Problem]

12. Because that's how you carry one...

Most semi-autos are carried with a round in the chamber. Perfectly safe if you take appropriate precautions.

Monkeying with the trigger is akin to seeing how late you can hit the brakes before you hit the wall. Sooner or later, you're gonna fuck up.

[ObamaFTW2012]

29. The "chambered carry or not" debate could go no forever.

I suppose it depends on your habits and priorities, so to each his or her own. I carry a 1911, loaded, chambered, and hammer back - just the way John Browning intended. I might reconsider if I were to switch to a Glock, but you'd have a hard time convincing me to switch to a Glock.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

33. You're already carrying the finest pistol ever made.

Why would you commit blasphemy and offend St. John by switching to a Glock?

[PavePusher]

35. Amen, Brother.

And now the Anti's can feed their "worship of guns" mantra...

[We_Have_A_Problem]

38. Had to thrown them a bone...

I'm feeling charitable today.

Don't worry - I'll make my penance at St. Gabriel Possenti's later this weekend.






(i wonder just how many of us even recognize that reference)

[GreenStormCloud]

47. But the lizard gave his all, not just a bone. N/T

[one-eyed fat man]

56. St. Gabriel Possenti

A Catholic seminarian whose marksmanship and proficiency with handguns saved the village of Isola, Italy from a band of 20 terrorists in 1860.

[ObamaFTW2012]

41. I wouldn't

I've tried shooting Glocks, but they feel like toys in my hands. No heft to them. The 1911 just feels natural, like it was made for my hands. I'm content with 8+1 rounds of .45, and not ready to switch to combat tupperware.

[SteveM]

31. Well, not doing so slows down response to a threat, see above...

With a revolver, you can keep fully loaded, and unless you pull the long-action spring-loaded trigger, there is not the touch-and-go danger of shooting a chambered semi-auto, like a Glock.

Incidentally, modern double-action and some single-action revolvers have action bars which prevent discharge from a dropped gun (a danger with older revolvers, esp. single actions). To shoot a modern revolver you must fully pull the trigger (as described above) to fire. No safety required or needed.

[hlthe2b]

5. Killed by his own fear & paranoia....

And recklessness, of course. Sigh.....

[SteveM]

32. Reckless, yes. "Fear & paranoia" is standard (usually wrong) speculation. nt

[Remmah2]

59. Reckless yes.

Fear and paranoia? Both pro2A and anti2A persons have the capacity to suffer from this malady. Without knowing the specifics, your comment is speculation at best.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[ileus]

11. Safe action....

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

16. "sitting in the front seat of his family's minivan"

The man's wife was about halfway out of the van, intending to walk to the store to return a DVD, when she heard a pop, which she and the children, all younger than 10, initially believed was a balloon bursting. There were balloons in the van.

The man threw the gun to the floorboard and said, "Oh my God, I think I just shot myself," according to Scott.

The man was pronounced dead after being taken to Mary Washington Hospital in Fredericksburg.

... Police declined to identify him, citing a department policy barring the release of victims' identities in self-inflicted death cases.

It isn't just stupid people who suffer. The wife and kids weren't shot, but they suffered just about the next worse fate.

Not releasing the identities of victims of accidental self-inflicted deaths strikes me as maybe putting a little too fine a point on a policy obviously intended to shield the families of suicide victims. When the death (or even suicide) involves someone with a permit to possess or carry a firearm (depending on local law) and the firearm is the instrument of death, there's perhaps a public interest involved.

[ileus]

17. OWB is the only way to go....IWB sucks.

I tried that IWB stuff for a while, it's great if you're standing / walking but sucks ass if you're sitting. OWB or pocket carry for me...

[jmg257]

18. Noticed the other incident also involved a Glock. Safe Action indeed. nt

[benld74]

24. 2011 Darwin Award contestant

[Hoyt]

25. That armed SOB could have been standing next to someone's kid in Chuck E Cheeze.

Probably had so-called NRA "safety" course as well.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

27. Could have been....

but wasnt, so lets not get upset over what DIDN'T happen shall we?

You have no idea if he had taken the NRA safety course. Even if he had, he obviously didn't follow it so there is no reason to put "safety" in quotes.

Have you taken the hunter safety course? Do you have a clue what it entails?

[Hoyt]

34. So once again, we exclude a gunner's danger to society because he's just stupid.

A bunch are definitely stupid -- yet we let them walk around with a gun or two.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

39. We also let stupid people vote, marry and reproduce...

As even Einstein said, stupidity may well be the most ubiquitous substance in the universe. If we make stupidity illegal, we may as well all check into a cell tomorrow.

[Hoyt]

40. I doubt Einstein would have approved of allowing stupid people to carry guns in parks, etc.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

43. I doubt he would have had a problem with it.

Stupidity is sadly rampant, and incurable. However, there is no way to know someone really IS stupid until they've been educated and choose to ignore the facts.

For example, you have been educated - repeatedly - on this topic, yet you insist upon holding your absurd prejudices in the face of all the facts. Guess what that makes you?

Now, one other thing Einstein pointed out was the definition of insanity. I'll let you look that one up on your own, and consider it when you apply it to your beliefs about gun control. All of your ideas have been tried before and without fail the results have ALWAYS been the same. After reviewing Einstein's observation the behavior of doing the same thing twice and expecting different results, maybe you'll question your own beliefs.

While Einstein was personally a pacifist, I am unaware of him ever supporting total disarmament. He disliked violence, but recognized it as endemic to the human race.

[iverglas]

44. on what do you base your doubt?

The fact that he, like Aldous Huxley, was a committed, crusading pacifist? Not "personally" a pacifist. An activist in the cause of pacifism.

Why ever would such a person not approve of stupid people (or smart people) wandering around in public with firearms on their person?

I just can't think, myself ...

[iverglas]

45. "I'll let you look that one up on your own"

Oh, don't worry. Done long since. Have you ever tried it yourself?

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

Misattributed

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Variously misattributed to figures also including Benjamin Franklin and Mark Twain. The earliest known occurrence, and probable origin, is from a 1981 text from Narcotics Anonymous.

I just love how people who think they're quoting one of the great minds of all time are actually quoting some 12-stepping bozo of the likes of the originator of "keep it simple, stupid".

:rofl:

While we're here:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud

Misattributed

A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.

This is not a statement that appears in any translation of any of Freud's works. It is a paraphrase of a statement from the essay "Guns, Murders, and the Constitution" (February 1990) by Don B. Kates, Jr. where Kates summarizes his views of passages in Dreams in Folklore (1958) by Freud and David E. Oppenheim, while disputing statements by Emmanuel Tanay in "Neurotic Attachment to Guns" in a 1976 edition of The Fifty Minute Hour: A Collection of True Psychoanalytic Tales (1955) by Robert Mitchell Lindner:

Dr. Tanay is perhaps unaware of — in any event, he does not cite — other passages more relevant to his argument. In these other passages Freud associates retarded sexual and emotional development not with gun ownership, but with fear and loathing of weapons. The probative importance that ought to be attached to the views of Freud is, of course, a matter of opinion. The point here is only that those views provide no support for the penis theory of gun ownership.

Due to misreading of this essay and its citations, this paraphrase of an opinion about Freud's ideas has been wrongly attributed to Freud himself, and specifically to his 10th Lecture "Symbolism in Dreams" in General Introduction to Psychoanalysis on some internet forum pages: alt.quotations, uk.politics.guns, talk.politics.guns, can.talk.guns , etc.

Damn, not Sigmund Freud, but that great mind Don Kates on Sigmund Freud.

:rofl: :rofl:


What a disappointment these great fellas must be to some.

[iverglas]

42. Einstein and Huxley, enslaved in the service of the agenda

Both were two of their century's most committed pacifists.

http://www.commondreams.org/views/022100-101.htm

edit ... well, both were only one of them, but you see what I mean. ;)

[oneshooter]

46. Including Democrats? n/t

[Hoyt]

49. A lot less Democrats than right wingers.

[AtheistCrusader]

52. Empirical evidence suggests he was only a danger to himself.

[krispos42]

37. Or driving an SUV at 75mph on the interstate.

So I guess we should ban both driving and carrying.

[Atypical Liberal]

30. This is why I prefer manual safeties.

Safeties in firearms like the Glock only detect presence. Manual safeties detect intent.

[krispos42]

36. And this is why I want an XD with a grip safety.

Plus, the grip angle and ergonomics are just awesome.

[Simo 1939_1940]

50. +1 to both of your points. NT

[AtheistCrusader]

53. +1

I won't carry anything else. Fits my hand perfectly, zero danger holstering it. The only time mine isn't in condition zero, is when I am cleaning it. (or reloading)

[mvccd1000]

51. Rec'd

Might be the first time I've ever rec'd one of jpak's threads, but this one deserves to be seen. 1) It's certainly newsworthy, if for nothing more than a warning to anyone else who would consider carrying using the victim's methods, and 2) There are some great responses that can help educate others and prevent something like this from happening again.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BiggJawn]

55. Man killed by his own car

This is the first one that popped up in Teh Google:

http://www.myharlingen.us/users/0079/FATALITY%2011-2011.pdf

I could probably find a story about somebody who died alone straining on the toilet and post that as "Man killed by his own Colon"...

[Logical]

57. I hate Glocks. For this reason.

[Uncle Omar]

58. PLASTIC GUNS THAT GO THRU AIRPORTS

THIS PROVES THAT GUNS KILL. NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO CARRY. LET THEM JOIN THE MILITARY.

[Remmah2]

60. Brain misfire?

Clocks do not evade detection at the airport. The springs, barrel. ammo provide more than sufficient metal to be picked up. The problem w/anti2A arguments is the data and technical knowledge are lacking. AND THIS HURTS MY FEELINGS.