The Gun Magnet: Montana Awash in Far-Right Extremists, Thanks to Loose Laws

[onehandle]

A number of state legislatures in the Interior West in recent years, reflecting their deeply conservative constituencies, have tried to outdo each other in promoting gun rights within their boundaries -- almost always at the behest of far-right gun factions. Leading the way, probably, has been Montana, whose legislature has passed a number of radical bills in recent years aimed at limiting federal oversight of guns in the state, including a recent bill giving sheriffs the right to arrest federal agents.

Now Montanans are learning there is a steep price to pay for endorsing gun-rights extremism: Not only does it empower some of the most extreme right-wingers operating in the realm of mainstream politics, it also attracts some of the most radical members of the far right, including committed racists who see their new Western homes as the place to try to build a white-supremacist homeland.

David Holthouse has a four-part series at Media Matters reporting on this phenomenon in detail, and it is a must-read:

In addition to calling on fellow right-wing extremists to move to the Flathead Valley, leaders of both the PLE and the Patriot movements in the region are urging followers to exploit Montana's weak firearms regulations by stocking up on guns, including .50 caliber sniper rifles and assault weapons, says Travis McAdam, executive director of the Montana Human Rights Network, which closely follows PLE and Patriot activity, including online communications.

"With the PLE, it's the coming battle with Zionist Occupied Government, with the Patriots, it's the New World Order, but again the rhetoric is similar: 'A big fight is coming, so move with us to Montana where it's easy to get a lot of serious guns, because chances are you're going to need them,'" says McAdam.

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/gun-magnet-montana-awash-far-right-e

This is what the GOPNRA wants, from coast to coast.

[Logical]

1. I m pro-gun but the NRA is a bunch of right wing nuts!

[Philosopher King]

2. It is incredibly simple-minded to blame it on freedom, when no other explanation can be found.

[Walk away]

7. That's right! When there's only one explanation for something.....

we should disbelieve it. "sarcasm"

I sure hope you just forgot your "sarcasm"

[SteveM]

45. Funny, I thought Montana was awash in Hollywood people.

:shrug:

[hack89]

3. The Brady bunch ranks them with Vermont and New Hampshire

if guns are the issue, why doesn't Vermont and New Hampshire have similar issues? Perhaps other issues like geographic isolation and low population density are the reason why Montana is so attractive to such groups? Because there are many states with similar gun laws.

[ingac70]

4. Can sheriffs arrest federal agents in VT and NH? n/t

[hack89]

6. The law actually says that federal agents must get local approval

from the sheriff before they can arrest, search or seize. It is not specific to gun laws - there is a long running tension between state and federal power in the western United States.

But to answer your question, if federal agents break the law, of course they can be arrested by local law enforcement in NH or VT.

[Callisto32]

10. Did they commit crimes?

Your working from an over-simple model, methinks.

[rl6214]

51. I would imagine a sheriff anywhere can arrest a federal agent

depending on the reason.

[DanTex]

9. Actually it's not the "Brady bunch" making this point...

It comes straight from the gun-loving neo-Nazi white supremacists. For example:

(Pioneer Little Europe spokesperson) Gaede has repeatedly pointed to Montana's pro-gun culture and loose firearms regulations as one of the fundamental reasons for launching the PLE movement in the Flathead Valley. "You're not going to have any trouble building up a self-defense arsenal around here," she recently informed potential recruits.

Yes, of course, a "self-defense arsenal". What kind of freedom-loving American doesn't understand the need to build up a self-defense arsenal?

Oh, and if you don't know what the Pioneer Little Europe movement is, you should drop by a couple Montana gun shows. Just look for the friendly "gun rights" enthusiasts with the neo-Nazi insignia. Apparently the Mexican drug cartels and Al-Qaeda terrorists aren't the only people taking advantage of lax gun laws like the gun show loophole.

[hack89]

11. So the problem here is hate groups?

so lets pass some legislation regulating such groups - don't see what the problem is.

Are these groups actually linked to an increase in gun violence or are you simply using an unpopular group to attack gun rights in general?

[RSillsbee]

14. Don't see what the problem is.

so lets pass some legislation regulating such groups - don't see what the problem is.

You will when some winger decides moveon.org is a hate group

[hack89]

15. You are right - I actually prefer the status quo. nt

[ObamaFTW2012]

26. That's all it is

A smear. The lame "guilt by association" technique, in this case "gun owner/advocate = racist skinhead/drug dealer/terrorist".

[RSillsbee]

13. Speaking of absolute fucking MOONBATS

April Gaede? did you know that her neighbors actually protested against her being allowed to move to Kalispell?

BTW can you explain this "gun show loophole" to us? does it somehow mean that a FFL no longer has to conduct a NICS background check regardless of the venue in which he conducts business?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. and --

*crickets*

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ObamaFTW2012]

25. The what?

WTF is a "gun show loophole"? Are you talking about the federal law that requires firearm dealers to demand a completed Form 4473 from potential buyers, along with a NICS background check, but does not require such from private party transactions anywhere? Gun shows aren't magical fairy tale lands for gun nuts where laws are suspended while groups of uniformed and plain-clothes agents and officers of various state, federal, county, and municipal law enforcement agencies prowl the crowd looking for known felons and illegal weapons transactions.

Jesus, dude, get a grip. I hate skinheads, drug dealers, and Al Qaeda too, but you seem to be trying to paint a mental picture of some free-for-all arms bazaar populated by nothing but those types of people. In reality, gun shows are mostly old white people, the occasional black guy (like me), and a few asians and hispanics (sometimes friends of mine). The shadiest guy at the gun show is probably the beef jerky guy.

[RSillsbee]

27. Don't forget the Sham-WOW dude NT

[ObamaFTW2012]

28. Yeah

that guy exudes shadiness. He should be selling car stereo equipment on Canal Street in Manhattan.

[SteveM]

47. The Party of the Governor? Presidential winner last time? nt

[beevul]

52. I bet they feel left out.

"Just look for the friendly "gun rights" enthusiasts with the neo-Nazi insignia. Apparently the Mexican drug cartels and Al-Qaeda terrorists aren't the only people taking advantage of lax gun laws like the gun show loophole."

PLE : "How come ATF never let any guns walk to us? We are sad panda"...

"people taking advantage of lax gun laws like the gun show loophole."

It seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding of reality, Sir.

There is NO gun show loophole. Its a "private sale loophole", but the reality is that it isn't even a loophole, seeing as the federal government has no authority to regulate intrastate commerce - thats private sales of firearms in case you weren't aware - and that lack of authority exists just as much at a gun show as it does at a flea market or yard sale or classified ad.

Now that you're informed, can we expect that you'll stop using the term "gun show loophole", since it is misleading, inaccurate, and incorrect?

Or do we just get to link this post whenever you use it hereafter, and point out that you're being deliberately misleading?

[BiggJawn]

5. And the low population densities and isolation have nothing to do with it?

Silly me, I thought the Western states attracted the neo-NAZI types because it takes the sheriff 2 days to drive from one corner of the county to the other...

[Walk away]

8. It takes that long for the Sheriff to get to his neo-Nazi meeting? nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. woah, now

:o

[Callisto32]

12. Pointless flamebait and an ill-conceived attempt at a smear.

Unrec.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ZombieHorde]

19. There are white supremest groups here in Montana. Some of them isolate themselves, which is easy to

do in Montana. My university has a class that takes field trips to their compounds. The professor that teaches the class is a really cool guy. He told me there are very few women at these compounds, and the women students who participate in the field trips sometimes receive love letters from the men because the men lack normal courtship skills. They are always around other guys, so they don't know how to act around women, yet they are extremely lonely.

Their hate is a prison.

[RSillsbee]

20. Slightly off topic buy

Anyone's hate is a prison

[ZombieHorde]

21. I agree, and will add, some hate is more alienating than other hate. nt

[krispos42]

22. The more multi-thousand-dollar guns they buy...

...the less money they have to give to their church or to Republican politicians.

[ObamaFTW2012]

23. 2 corrections

There is no such thing as an "assault weapon", except for in the minds of a few die-hard gun haters like Mike Bloomberg, Dianne Feinstein, and their loyal minions. I call mine "homeland defense rifles". It sounds more patriotic, though admittedly a tad nationalistic.

A "sniper rifle" is ANY rifle in the hands of a sniper. A sniper is a trained marksman capable of making highly accurate shots, often at long ranges, far beyond the skills of the majority of marksmen. Therefore, a ".50 caliber sniper rifle" exists only in the hands of a sniper. Otherwise, it's just a .50 rifle.

[aikoaiko]

24. Right-wing extremists have been gravitating toward the interior west since the 1970s and 80s.

The rhetoric of Bush I New World Order riled them up as much as anything else.

[iverglas]

29. looks like a very interesting read

and I will be reading it. For now, I just wanted to mention how interesting it was to see that when I left a tab open with the list for this board, this thread (which I hadn't read yet) had 8 recommendations ... when I clicked on it just now it had three.

Who among us is so desperate to ensure that information like this doesn't catch the eye of DU members?!?

:eyes:

[gejohnston]

31. I am guessing that

many DU readers also read MM and CR, so doesn't really matter. Some might be in Montana reading them while cleaning their guns thinking "no shit"
What states do these nuts usually come from? In the case of the Nazis that moved to Idaho in the 80s, Illinois.
The Scientologists bought a ranch in my home county to archive L Ron's writings. They picked it because it is arid, sparsely populated (37K people in the same land area slightly smaller than the state of Mass.) Yet, the county still found them looking for their building permit. Does that make my relatives Scientoligists or militia nuts? No.

[AtheistCrusader]

34. I unrecced it for the bullshit correlation it tries to draw.

Also, the article itself contains no census type data on the alleged migration of these shitheads into Montana.

Not really sure what the spear hunting hullaballoo was all about. There are people in this very subfolder that think we should be hunting deer with nothing more advanced than sticks. WTF.

Cold Steel makes a Boar Spear for a reason. People do use them to hunt.

[PavePusher]

54. Some people would say that the vile bigotry and unsupported claims of the "article"...

should be reason to censor it and vile filth like it.

Some people.

[Simo 1939_1940]

32. As others have stated - unrec for blatant smear job. NT

[LAGC]

33. I'm very familiar with the Flathead Valley in western Montana.

Believe me, there are enough Native Americans up there to put a stop to any serious white-supremacist foolishness.

North Idaho had a bad reputation clear up until just over a decade ago when the Aryan Nations was finally sued into obsolescence. Truth is, besides the few outspoken kooks, most people -- even most white people -- don't put up with any serious racist bullshit. Their message falls on deaf ears.

[AtheistCrusader]

35. Yep.

I'm sure Libby and Troy have their share of white supremacists, as they always have, but that shit is deep underground. You never see it. You never hear it. It's not welcome there. No one tolerates it.

[gejohnston]

37. David Neiwert

This is the same guy that scribbled the "Al Qaida says you can buy unregulated machine guns at gun shows, and I believe them" article. Then quoted a gun control advocate, not a police armor or ATF firearms expert, but an unnamed GCA on how easy it is to convert a semi auto to a full auto. In other words, he couldn't hack it at a high school newspaper. Now he is back with this shit. What was even worse, was that he copy and pasted other peoples' stuff, or they plagiarized his because they read the same. That was only last spring.

A number of state legislatures in the Interior West in recent years, reflecting their deeply conservative constituencies, have tried to outdo each other in promoting gun rights within their boundaries -- almost always at the behest of far-right gun factions.

For example, what laws is he talking about? Other than liberalizing concealed carry laws like everyone else, what is he talking about? Other than maybe this:
http://helenair.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/new-gun-law-aimed-at-asserting-sovereignty/article_f4de1503-def8-52ee-b007-f66db259e8e0.html
But those guns (if they exist) can never leave the state. Oh yeah, signed by the same guy who wants to set up a single payer system in Montana.

including a recent bill giving sheriffs the right to arrest federal agents.

So, where can I find more on this? So far, it looks like it was introduced but went nowhere. Outside of the OP, I only see places like World Nut Daily and various black helicopter spotter type sites.

This post is written as part of the Media Matters Gun Facts fellowship. The purpose of the fellowship is to further Media Matters' mission to comprehensively monitor, analyze, and correct conservative misinformation in the U.S. media. Some of the worst misinformation occurs around the issue of guns, gun violence, and extremism; the fellowship program is designed to fight this misinformation with facts.

In other words, this is part of the $400K the Joyce Foundation gave MM to write disinformation. It is at the bottom of Neiwert's article. IMHO, the most dishonest and hypocritical thing I have seen.

Here are some of the comments from Neiwert's post. Who can spot the bigotry here?

Fuck Montana. If we had any kind of real democracy, these fascist, racist asshats would be nothing but the side-show that their inbred lifestyles make them out to be...

f your typical Montanan is anything like your average southern redneck, they afford their guns by letting their wives and children go without decent food, clothing, healthcare, education, Hey, these guys know what's really important. Personally, I say let 'em have all the guns they want. Maybe they'll get into a good ol fashioned Hatfields and McCoys type war and shoot each other.

[PavePusher]

38. "Montana Awash in Far-Right Extremists, Thanks to Loose Laws"

I didn't know we needed more laws against "extremists". How would such a law be crafted? What are your specific objections and objectives?

After that, your train left the tracks, at a high rate of speed.

[ileus]

39. 50 cal sniper rifles.....OH MY!

[onehandle]

40. Unrecced from +17 to -0. Far-Right Extremists...

Squirrel!

[oneshooter]

41. Yea, it hurts when your personal, favorite mantra isn't accepted by others. n/t

[LAGC]

42. That's what you get for trying to smear the great state of Montana.

Your contempt for rural states is duly noted.

[SteveM]

48. 'Got tired of smearing Florida, that other Obama-voting state. nt

[PavePusher]

53. Or maybe because your bigotry is just as vile as theirs....

Just a hypothesis, of course...

[beevul]

43. David Holthouse...where have I heard that name before...

Oh, yeah...

"I bought the gun last April. I had a few firearms in my closet already, but they'd all been purchased legally, in my name, from a licensed firearms dealer. So I flew to Phoenix and went to a gang barrio, where I bought a Beretta 9mm with a homemade silencer and the serial number removed. I took this gun to the local garage gunsmith and had him put dozens of deep nicks and grooves in the Beretta's barrel to corrupt ballistics tests. The gunsmith warned me that this would ruin the gun's accuracy beyond a few feet, but I didn't care. I intended to get up-close and personal."

http://www.westword.com/2004-05-13/news/stalking-the-bogeyman/3/

Granted, this individual went through a terrible ordeal, however...

There is still the issue of possessing a firearm with altered/removed serial number - a federal crime, transportation of said firearm across state lines, possession of a home made - and presumably unregistered silencer/suppressor - a federal crime,and, obvious and admitted criminal intent - all admissions on the part of this individual.

If this person were posting a "pro gun" viewpoint, I do wonder what those not of the "pro-gun" viewpoint would say about it, and about the paragraph I quoted above.


Something about his credibility, I think...

[iverglas]

44. "Granted, this individual went through a terrible ordeal, however..."

Yeah.

The man I was going to kill was the one who raped me in 1978, when I was seven years old.

... There's a scene in The Good, the Bad, and the Uglywhere the gunfighter played by Eli Wallach righteously blows away a guy and then drops this pearl of murderous wisdom: "If you're going to shoot, shoot. Don't talk."

Because if you let them talk, they may beg, and if they beg, you may not shoot. When I was still planning to kill the man I was now sitting beside on the 16th Street Mall, my plan was to walk up, say, "David Holthouse. You raped me when I was seven," and then pop, one slug to the crotch, let him writhe, kick him over, hold him down with my foot and then pop, pop, pop, three to the back of the head, lights out.

I knew that if I gave him time to talk, I might not pull the trigger -- and sure enough, as soon as I exchanged a few sentences with him, I didn't want to shoot him at all, because I saw him as a frightened, damaged man. He wasn't the Bogeyman anymore. He was real. He begged my forgiveness. He swore I was the only one.

All the experts say he was almost certainly lying. But then, all the experts say it was extremely unusual for him to admit his crime to me, let alone his wife and parents, and he did at least make the admission to his parents. I checked.

We can read a bit about the effect that had on his life. Post-traumatic stress disorder, writ large.

An absolutely classic perfect example of someone who should NEVER have a firearm. Someone whose life has been driven, his thoughts distorted, by fear since he was seven years old.

He's got over his feelings about the immediate source of his fear, but he may never get over what has been a life-long habit of seeing the world as a threatening place.

To offer up a victim of early childhood sexual abuse and his rational responses to that experience (PTSD is not an irrational response - when you have lived through horrific experiences from which you had no protection, it is not irrational to see the world as threatening) as discrediting him when it comes to his opinion about firearms policy ... pretty poor effort.

If this person were posting a "pro gun" viewpoint, I do wonder what those not of the "pro-gun" viewpoint would say about it, and about the paragraph I quoted above.

I would say exactly what I have said, which is exactly what I have said already when people have posted in this forum that they plan to get guns as a response to a life-threatening situation they have experienced, such as an armed robbery: that he is the last person on earth who should have guns, and the poster child for stringent controls on access to guns.

[gejohnston]

49. did he really do it?

I tend to be skeptical of people who admit (probably falsely) of committing crimes in the open press.

"I bought the gun last April. I had a few firearms in my closet already, but they'd all been purchased legally, in my name, from a licensed firearms dealer. So I flew to Phoenix and went to a gang barrio, where I bought a Beretta 9mm with a homemade silencer and the serial number removed. I took this gun to the local garage gunsmith and had him put dozens of deep nicks and grooves in the Beretta's barrel to corrupt ballistics tests. The gunsmith warned me that this would ruin the gun's accuracy beyond a few feet, but I didn't care. I intended to get up-close and personal."

The only federal gun control law he did not admit to violating was the one signed by Calvin Coolidge and maybe the Brady Act.

[SteveM]

46. Hmm. What party does the governor belong to? Did the state go to McCain? nt

[rl6214]

50. What a steaming pile of anti-gun bullshit