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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov-20-11 11:54 AM Response to Reply #43 53. let's parse that out My underlying belief is that when we offer people the responsibility of being free along with letting them be free, people learn to be responsible in their usages. This applies to guns, drugs, abortions, and more.
Exactly what are pregnant women responsible for in making decisions about their pregnancies, and to whom are they responsible?
I'll answer that for you: nothing and nobody.
So take your ugly analogies and stick them up that gun barrel.
Of course, the other important point here is that the same actually applies to people with firearms: they are not actually responsible for anything to anybody.
Responsibility necessarily implies accountability.
I am responsible for keeping my roof clear of snow and ice; if I fail in that responsibility and someone is injured or killed by snow and ice falling from my roof, I am accountable for that.
If I am not accountable, then I have no responsibility.
Pregnant women, and you want to take very careful note of this, are not accountable for the decisions they make and the actions they take regarding their pregnancies.
And the point here is that firearms owners are also not accountable for the decisions they make and the actions they take regarding their firearms. They are accountable for crimes committed, but for nothing else.
They are not accountable for transferring their firearms to ineligible people, just for one example. They are not accountable for making their firearms accessible to unauthorized people (like children and thieves and ineligible friends and family). They are not accountable for any of a myriad of decisions they make and actions they take regarding their firearms.
And that is the entire point.
Unless you have some proposal for holding firearms owners accountable, your tired burble about "responsibility" is just fancy words for "we don't give a shit". Alert Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top Festivito (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov-20-11 02:55 PM Response to Reply #53 58. Let me get his straight. You think a person should not be responsible for their own decisions!? "Exactly what are pregnant women responsible for in making decisions about their pregnancies, and to whom are they responsible?"
Themselves.
You say: nothing and nobody.
Is this really where we disagree? Big government IS NOT the problem, big money is. Alert | Add to my Journal Printer Friendly | Permalink | Edit | Reply | Top iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov-20-11 02:57 PM Response to Reply #58 59. I do urge you to get it straight Let me know when you think you've managed it. Alert Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top Festivito (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov-20-11 04:59 PM Response to Reply #59 66. To thine own self be true, iverglas. Straight enough for you? Or, do you and Shakespeare have problems with each other as well. Big government IS NOT the problem, big money is. Alert | Add to my Journal Printer Friendly | Permalink | Edit | Reply | Top iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov-20-11 05:09 PM Response to Reply #58 67. let me help you out You think a person should not be responsible for their own decisions!?
is the most pure and utter cabbage.
First, you have made a statement and stuck some punctuation on the end of it.
Have some guts. If you want to make a statement, make, it, and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for it. It's a false statement, and it's yours, whether you want to try to SHIRT RESPONSIBILITY for it or not.
What rational person would think that a person "should not be responsible for their own decisions"?
Who do they think should be responsible for a person's decisions? The Wizard of Oz? And how would that work, exactly?
Cabbage. Pickled.
Exactly what are pregnant women responsible for in making decisions about their pregnancies, and to whom are they responsible? Themselves.
Ah yes. And they may smite themselves if they are, uh, "irresponsible".
Saying that someone is responsible "to themself" is saying nothing. Precisely nothing.
You say: nothing and nobody.
Yup. They are not responsible FOR anything, and they are not responsible TO anyone, in making decisions about their own pregnancy. The state of being pregnant does not operate to assign a pregnant woman any responsibility for anything, to anyone.
And you, of course, have not said anything to the contrary, to actually answer my question.
Is this really where we disagree?
I am not capable of disagreeing with pickled cabbage.
Perhaps you are saying firearms owners are responsible "to themselves" for the decisions they make and the actions they take regarding their firearms.
To which I reply, of course, that you have once again said precisely nothing.
What you haven't done is anything to bolster that silly business about firearms and responsibility, anyhow. Alert Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top Festivito (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov-20-11 06:47 PM Response to Reply #67 71. Help back at ya. People are responsible to themselves. (Saying so, is just too obvious to be said like utter cabbage - pickled -- to iverglas.) But, it was spoken in light of your question: to whom should they be responsible. That coming from my saying belief in letting people be more free with guns fosters more responsible action that I would see as progressive - not the opposite of progressive as is the concern of the OP.
Big government IS NOT the problem, big money is. Alert | Add to my Journal Printer Friendly | Permalink | Edit | Reply | Top iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov-20-11 07:16 PM Response to Reply #71 72. rhubarb Back to the beginning now.
My underlying belief is that when we offer people the responsibility of being free along with letting them be free, people learn to be responsible in their usages.
And if they don't?
Fuck the dead people, right? And the injured, and brutalized, and terrorized. And their families and friends and communities.
I suppose they were responsible for what happened to them.
People are responsible to themselves. (Saying so, is just too obvious to be said like utter cabbage - pickled -- to iverglas.) But, it was spoken in light of your question: to whom should they be responsible.
Who in the fucking hell cares about gun owners being "responsible to themselves"?
Do you actually expect me to believe this is what your first statement meant? Alert Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top Festivito (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov-20-11 07:53 PM Response to Reply #72 77. I answered that in my first post on this thread. Either way, people are injured, brutalized, terrorized and dead. So, if no one cares, let's default on the side of being free, since freedom invokes progress, i.e. progressive, and is liberating, i.e. liberal. Big government IS NOT the problem, big money is. Alert | Add to my Journal Printer Friendly | Permalink | Edit | Reply | Top iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov-20-11 10:41 PM Response to Reply #77 81. I always love it when "liberals" fly their true colours "I'm all right, Jack." Alert Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top Festivito (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov-20-11 11:09 PM Response to Reply #81 82. True colors such as progress and freedom, together? I hope Jack is pleased. Big government IS NOT the problem, big money is. Alert | Add to my Journal Printer Friendly | Permalink | Edit | Reply | Top iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov-20-11 11:17 PM Response to Reply #82 83. no, true colours as in "Fuck you, Jack, I'm all right".
The original version; perhaps it will be more familiar to you. If you still don't get it, look it up. Another way of putting it is: "Devil take the hindmost."
You're the one who doesn't give a shit about anybody else. Don't try to construct an "us" around that one. And don't try to pretend that sentiment is progressive. Alert Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top Festivito (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov-20-11 11:47 PM Response to Reply #83 85. You seem relentlessly indirect for someone who chides: "If you want to make a statement, make, it." Are you sure I don't care, how instead you'd be psychologically projecting that on me?
I have a different idea on how to reduce gun abuse, drug abuse, even abortion abuse -- and I mean abuse, not use. If I truly did not care about anybody else, I wouldn't bother trying to talk about my ideas.
Should I be taking those statements you directed at me and direct them back at you? Big government IS NOT the problem, big money is. Alert | Add to my Journal Printer Friendly | Permalink | Edit | Reply | Top iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Nov-21-11 12:26 AM Response to Reply #85 86. if you think I'm remotely interested in anything, anything at all, that someone who could even construct a sentence containing the words "abortion abuse" might say about anything -- you're dead wrong. Those words say enough about you to settle that issue.
You're the one who acknowledged not caring about the people harmed by firearms use. Not "abuse". Use. Use for the purpose for which they are designed: putting bullets in things.
You're the one who thinks the world should sit by and wait for firearms owners to be "responsible". Or not. Luck of the draw.
As I said: you're alright, Jack.
Unless some day you aren't. But I guess that will be your responsibility. Alert Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top Festivito (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Nov-21-11 01:16 AM Response to Reply #86 87. I say over and over that I care, and you say I acknowledged that I don't. (Not to my recollection) I wade through your hyperbole and obtuse sarcasm wondering what is the real reason there seems to be so much anger. But, for that, there may be need for trust that has not arrived so far.
There are possible abuses of abortion, a lying doctor, a mistaken impression the husband did not want the child, hypochondria, ... I'd prefer that abortions be safe, available, unwanted and unneeded. If you don't like that, okay, I don't understand why.
With guns, I'd prefer people being free to own and use guns while be comfortable enough not to carry them about except when going somewhere to enjoy the use.
With drugs, ... it continues in the same vane. Big government IS NOT the problem, big money is. Alert | Add to my Journal Printer Friendly | Permalink | Edit | Reply | Top iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Nov-21-11 02:16 AM Response to Reply #87 88. what word salads you create "Possible abuses of abortion". What utter nonsense.
You would rather make no sense in public than acknowledge that your position is driven by self-interest and nothing else.
This is what you said:
Yes. Personally, I find allowing guns MORE progressive in reducing gun misuse.
My underlying belief is that when we offer people the responsibility of being free along with letting them be free, people learn to be responsible in their usages.
This applies to guns, drugs, abortions, and more.
First, you drew a grossly offensive and totally improper analogy between the "usages" of guns and the "usages" of abortion.
Women "use" abortion to carry out decisions about their own healthcare.
People "use" firearms to kill, rob, intimidate, and terrorize: family members, acquaintances, strangers, communities.
There is no "responsibility" involved in either scenario.
Women are neither responsible nor irresponsible in making and carrying out their healthcare decisions.
People who use guns for the purposes described are not being "irresponsible", they are being criminal.
Your suggestion that people be "offered responsibility" and that they will thereby become "responsible" in relation to firearms is the most utter and complete garbage talk. It means nothing. It is not connected in even the most tenuous way to reality. And it demonstrates the most utter and complete lack of concern for the welfare of anyone at all.
With guns, I'd prefer people being free to own and use guns while be comfortable enough not to carry them about except when going somewhere to enjoy the use.
People who are killed, injured, robbed, intimidated or terrorized by people with guns don't really give a shit what you prefer. See? Most particularly when what you "prefer" is actually some kind of "libertarian" (you know the word I want to use) credo and has no rational connection to the reality of those people's lives or life in general.
You can believe whatever you choose to believe. You can believe that things fall up when you drop them. They won't. Your claimed belief that "freedom" in relation to firearms will produce "responsibility" on the part of people who have them holds exactly as much water.
If I were to act on your belief that things fall up when you drop them, I might crush my foot when I dropped a box of books. If a society were to act on your belief that no controls on firearms possession are needed, even more people would suffer.
And I'm still waiting for any indication that you would give a crap. Alert Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top Festivito (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Nov-21-11 10:47 AM Response to Reply #88 102. One thing about your word salad: you use a lot of ingredients. But, I think you argue just to argue. You ignore completely what I last said, instead jumping back and repeating arguments you presented earlier.
You seem assured in your belief that I don't care. I think I do and have shown how. Perhaps you could at least acknowledge that we disagree there.
I don't think this is going to be a productive discussion anymore.
I wish you well. Good day to you. Big government IS NOT the problem, big money is. Alert | Add to my Journal Printer Friendly | Permalink | Edit | Reply | Top We_Have_A_Problem (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Nov-21-11 09:55 AM Response to Reply #58 99. Funny... ...I always figured pregnant women were responsible for making the choice to have sex, deciding if they want to remain pregnant, and after the child is born, responsible for raising it.
Who the hell said they are not responsible for anything? Good lord - what kind of twisted mind thinks a pregnant woman bears no responsibility?
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