NY Attorney General Announces Results Of Statewide Undercover Gun Show Investigation

[burf]

“Operation Background Bust” Shows Blatant Disregard for Gun Show Laws Requiring Background Checks

Vendors Sold Guns to Customers Who Disclosed They Had Orders of Protections Against Them – Fully Knowing They Couldn’t Pass a Background Check


http://www.ammoland.com/2011/11/30/ny-attorney-general-announces-results-of-statewide-undercover-gun-show-investigation/

At least they are enforcing the laws they pass.

[TheCowsCameHome]

1. Hey, business is business.

No sense letting pesky laws stand in the way of making a quick buck.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

3. Funny you should say that...

You really simply proved a point many have made before - no law is going to prevent illegal acts.

If this is as implied in the article, and these were FFL dealers intentionally not doing an NICS check, they should be legally nailed to the wall.

[pipoman]

2. Wonder how large the pool was?

If it is like shows I have attended, there are hundreds of gun sellers at the shows. Likely thousands at numerous shows. Apparently the investigation resulted in misdemeanor charges against only 10 people. Hardly a trend, in fact amazingly low. Enforce the laws, leave the other 99+% who act lawfully alone. There will always need to be enforcement, more laws will not change that fact.

[rl6214]

19. "Enforce the laws, leave the other 99+% who act lawfully alone."

Kinda like our 99%ers out there with the OWS movement. I would think most of the posters here support them while our 99% gets bashed at any opportunity.

[no_hypocrisy]

4. Gun control laws mostly limit the flow of weapons to purchasers.

They don't eliminate and totally control the commerce of firearms.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

5. Sadly...

...there are those who insist upon believing that a law will magically prevent a crime.

Hell, murder has been against the law since Cain decided Able's head would look better if it were a little flatter - and it hasn't stopped a single murder in human history.

[RC]

10. And then there are those that think gun save lives.

Save lives? How? By killing people.

[Hoyt]

11. LMAO -- these folks will never get it.

[rl6214]

20. "LMAO--these folks will never get it."

Funny, we say that about you all the time.

[Simo 1939_1940]

33. Coming from someone who displays such consistent

contempt for empirical evidence, all I can say is...........:rofl:

[We_Have_A_Problem]

15. I'd much rather save the life of 1 innocent...

...than have him die to save the life of a thousand criminals.

Yes, guns do work very well to save the lives of potential victims.

The life of the criminal trying to make them a victim is barely worth the cost of the bullet.

[ileus]

28. Some are designed as safety devices meant for saving lives.

My SDSD's are designed to save lives.

Always remember when choosing your self defense firearm you life, and more importantly the lives of your family depend on it. That makes it the ultimate life saving safety device.

[SteveM]

29. Then there are those that don't think. nt

[happyslug]

6. 11 RIFLES sold without a back ground check?

The gun types included:
3 AR-15 (Assault Rifles)
1 semi-automatic rifle called a “Mauser” (from Czech Republic)
1 Savage 7mm Rifle
1 Remington Model 710
1 Colt 7.72 x39
1 Enfield Military rifle
1 Browning .22 cal, model 235
1 Ithaca .22 gauge
1 Remington 25.06

With maybe the exception of the Browning .22 cal model 235 (Which I suspect is a rifle, but can NOT find anything on the net during a quick search to confirm that) ALL ARE RIFLES. There are obvious errors in the list "What is a "Colt 7.72x39"? 7.62x39 does exists and probably what was meant, but that Colt would be just an AR-15 (M-16 semi-automatic clone) in Russian 7.62x39 mm instead of US Army's 5.56x45mm round. Another is Ithaca .22 gauge, gauge is generally a term used for Shotguns NOT ,22 caliber rifles.

All minor errors, should have been caught by any decent editor, but shows the the reporter only repeated what the Attorney General released. Sounds more like a publicity piece then any serious actions to stop the spread of illegal weapons at Gun Shows.

The real concern should be pistols, apparently none were bought or sold WITHOUT a background Check.

Furthermore this list is a broad list, did the Attorney General keep on looking till he found 11 people who were stupid enough to sell Rifles or Shotguns for no one selling pistols would sell any without a background check? Remember over 95% of all crimes involving guns are done with PISTOLS, less then all crimes involving weapons use Rifles OR shotguns (More people are killed, for example, by knives then are killed by Rifles AND Shotguns in the US. "Blunt Instruments" i.e. clubs etc, is the weapon in more murders then Rifles OR Shotguns:

Weapons.....................................2006........2007........2008........2009........2010
Total........................................15,087......14,916......14,224......13,752......12,996
Total firearms:...........................10,225......10,129.......9,528.......9,199.......8,775
Handguns...................................7,836.......7,398.......6,800.......6,501.......6,009
Rifles...........................................438..........453..........380.........351.........358
Shotguns.....................................490...........457..........442.........423.........373
Other guns...................................107..........116............81..........96..........96
Firearms, type not stated.............1,354........1,705........1,825.......1,828.......1,939
Knives or cutting instruments........1,830........1,817........1,888.......1,836.......1,704
Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.).618..........647..........603.........623.........540

US Murder by weapon:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls

[We_Have_A_Problem]

8. I noticed the glaring errors as well...

I just gave up on expecting fact checking out of reporters when it comes to guns.

[Remmah2]

9. The media is a pack of useful idiots.

They just eat bad data up and make it up otherwise.

[Remmah2]

7. No handguns were purchased.

1) Yet the media blatantly flashed them on the screen. Although the flintlock was pretty funny.

2) The offending sellers were complete idiots and I hope get prosecuted.

3) The rifles purchased, how many rifles are actually used in crimes?

4) Schneiderman the AG for NY is targeting the show promoters for failing to enforce the NICS check. That's like holding a car dealer accountable for speeding tickets from the cars he sells. (He's working at shutting down shows, he probable real motive.)

[Hoyt]

12. Amazing number of gun lovers saying, "so what?" Does that mean they aren't surprised or don't care?

[oneshooter]

13. Hoyt, you need to bicycle up there and set things right!

Show them the Hoyt way of enforcing the law!!!

Arrest without cause or warrant

Trial before your handpicked juries

No defense needed, as there is no defense

50 years for each offense, whether you were charged with it or not

Removal of all rights from the entire family for the next two generations

Yea Hoyt, go get em!!!!!


Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Hoyt]

27. Better than sticking up for gun loving criminals who care nothing about who the sell guns to as long

as they walk away with a fist full of cash and a gun tucked down their pants for comfort.

[SteveM]

30. No, you're way is "not better." Don't abuse the Constitution so flagrantly. nt

[oneshooter]

34. Then when can we expect you to leave? Keep us posted

on your adventures.

[jeepnstein]

31. Wielding a front tire in one hand and a machete in the other!

"Freedom Boys! I've come to take your Freedom! Who's with me?"

[burf]

36. Or maybe...........

"No one expects the Spanish Inquisition".

[gejohnston]

14. nuance is a liberal value

dogma is not.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

16. Really?

I don't see where anyone said "So what". You have actual, you know, PROOF of that claim?

No? Its just your usual pile of dog squeeze? Gotcha.

[rl6214]

21. Haven't seen anyone in the first eleven posts say "so what"

"Amazing number of gun lovers saying, "so what?" Does that mean they aren't surprised or don't care?"
Posted by Hoyt

[AtheistCrusader]

39. Statistically insignificant.

Like, no BS, completely and utterly insignificant.

[one-eyed fat man]

17. Riddle me this?

It appears from the OP NY has passed a law where non-FFL are supposed to do a NICs check? Tell me the article is just unclear.

If you call in to the NICS center in Martinsburg you have to give your FFL number. Don't have one, they don't want to talk to you talk to you. They may want to know how you got the unpublished number for the exclusive use of FFL's.

Tell me the AG is not so stupid that there is a requirement that can't be accomplished except by a licensee?

If the people arrested were FFL's and the failed to perform a check as required by Federal law why slap them with a state misdemeanor charge when a they could make a Federal case out of it, and a felony at that?

If a private person is supposed to have a NICs check done at a gunshow, assuming that is what they want, why not make the law clear that the transaction must go through a dealer, who can make the check that a private person is being mandated to do but cannot.

I likewise don't understand how the gunshow promoter is supposed to do it. An FFL can't sell except in the state where he resides. A New York FFL has to handle transactions for New York residents IN New York.

Maybe they did nab some scofflaws, maybe they got some guy who figured to peddle some old gun he found cleaning out out his mother's closet. Malice deserves more penalty than ignorance.

I'd like to see a better explanation of the New York law and how it conflicts with Federal law.

[burf]

18. According to the link,

To facilitate the conducting of NICS background checks, gun show operators in New York are required to post signs giving notice of the background check requirement, as well as have a terminal inside the show where, by either phone or computer, a prospective purchaser’s name and information can be cross-checked against the national NICS database

This would allow the private seller to effectively do an NICS check and thereby being in compliance with the NY state law.

That's how I interpeted it anyway.

Hope that helps.

[one-eyed fat man]

22. That's what I mean

You have to be an FFL to do a NICS check. The law cannot require some sort of kiosk where any Tom, Dick, or Harry can punch in a NICS check because it does not work that way.

In other words, the FBI clerks in Martinsburg, West Virginia do not work for the fucking state of New York or its dip shit attorney general.

The NICS check for a gun sold in New York state to a resident of New York State by an FFL from New York State, is over the phone when the FFL calls NICS on a special number and identifies himself with his FFL and PIN. If New York wants all private sales to go through an FFL so that a NICS check is done then they should say so.

Even if the gunshow promoter is an FFL, he can not transfer guns to anyone other than an FFL in New York state or do NICS checks unless he is a resident of New York state.

From your explanation it appears New York requires something that cannot exist under Federal law.

[Lurks Often]

24. Not all states go directly through the Federal system

While the AG of NY state is almost certainly a dip shit and while the FFL dealers who sold the guns (presuming they were in fact FFL dealers) should be prosecuted, some states have their own state equivalent of NICS or a state interface with NICS and a staff to answer phones. Connecticut is one of those states.

Of course an FFL still has to call one either the State NICS, if there is one, or the Federal NICS.

Any private sales are governed by the applicable state law, which varies state to state.

[one-eyed fat man]

25. You are correct

"Any private sales are governed by the applicable state law, which varies state to state."

Unless the article is unclear, the way it is written, it could be read to say New York wants private individuals to contact NICS. If the state does not have such a system, they seem to have set up a "Catch-22" be requiring a private seller to do something the Federal system will not allow him to do.

If it indeed is FFL who failed to make the Federally mandated checks, why would the state settle for a a small fine and thirty days when under Federal law the very same violation is $250,000 fine and 10 years NO PAROLE?

"...some states have their own state equivalent of NICS..." the Brady law requires Federal authorities to certify state systems as acceptable. It's not an opt out system where the state just elects to use whatever system they devise.

If, as you say, Connecticut has a system where a private seller can call a state office who either provides clearance or interfaces with the national system as an intermediary that would make sense. The OP's description of the New York system is problematic.

[burf]

40. I did a little research on the operation of

gun shows according to NY State law § 896 Operation of a gun show.

(c) provide access at the gun show to a firearm dealer licensed under
federal law who is authorized to perform a national instant criminal
background check where the seller or transferor of a firearm, rifle or
shotgun is not authorized to conduct such a check by (i) requiring
firearm exhibitors who are firearm dealers licensed under federal law
and who are authorized to conduct a national instant criminal background
check to provide such a check at cost or (ii) designating a specific
location at the gun show where a firearm dealer licensed under federal
law who is authorized to conduct a national instant criminal background
check will be present to perform such a check at cost. Any firearm
dealer licensed under federal law who performs a national instant
criminal background check pursuant to this paragraph shall provide the
seller or transferor of the firearm, rifle or shotgun with a copy of the
United States Department of Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms Form ATF F 4473 and such dealer shall maintain such form and
make such form available for inspection by law enforcement agencies for
a period of ten years thereafter.

[one-eyed fat man]

43. That's a lot better explanation

What that law says that if you are not an FFL and have a gun you want to sell, if you bring it to a gunshow, you have to use the services of an FFL transfer the firearm. A gunshow is usually full of FFL's.

An FFL who performs this service, must, perforce of Federal law, enter said firearm in his bound book after getting your identification. He then must have the person who is buying the gun, fill out an ATF Form 4473, and just like any storefront sale in his shop, conduct the NICS check. And he is not allowed to charge you more for the service than cost. He must also meet all Federal requirements to make a sale in NY state.

So, it does go back on the seller. If you have gone to a NY gunshow with the idea of selling or trading a firearm there, you have to do it through an FFL.

[Euromutt]

35. I'm also curious about these "orders of protection"

Yes, the Lautenberg Amendment to the Gun Control Act of 1968 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html">18 USC §922(d)(8)) prohibits individuals subject to restraining/protection orders from possessing firearms, but only if the protection order pertains to an intimate partner of that individual, or a child of the intimate partner and/or the individual himself. Moreover, for the prohibition to hold, the order has to have been issued pursuant to a hearing at which the subject had the opportunity to participate--temporary injunctions issued ex parte don't count--and the court had to find that the subject presented a credible threat of physical injury to the beneficiary of the order (threats of "mental and/or emotional harm" don't cut it).

It's fairly safe to say the overwhelming majority of TROs do not meet these criteria, and the individuals subject to them are therefore not prohibited from possessing firearms.

[beevul]

23. So, eight-months, 10 accused violators, 11 firearms

Sounds like an epidemic of illegal firearm sales... :eyes:


In other news, the sky is falling :sarcasm:

[ManiacJoe]

26. The surprising part is that the AG actually filed charges.

Normally they chose not to enforce the existing laws.

[SteveM]

32. I think the intent here is to shut down gun shows...

From what I understand, individual sellers (FFL dealers or no) cannot knowingly sell a firearm to someone who is known to be unqualified. If individuals sold guns to people, even after they were informed of that person's unqualified status, then they are subject to prosecution, a whole ten (10) from what the article says. But this is disturbing:

"The investigation further exposed a gap in current law which holds only the individual gun seller, not the gun show operator, legally accountable for failing to ensure that a background check on the prospective gun purchaser has been conducted."

Why should the "gun show operator" be subject to the law? The individuals/dealers are subject to the law. In Texas, the Austin PD tried to pressure a gun show operator (and its landlord) to stop the shows by declaring the site a public nuisance under Texas law; i.e., it was the source of law-breaking and criminality. This is a hazy area of the law, and can easily be abused: Regular fights behind a bar is one thing; someone copping a joint behind a shopping center is another. It is the same kind of approach used by drug warriors: arrest someone growing pot on a ten-acre rental plot within the rancher's 500 acres, then confiscate the rancher's land.

The best approach here, given the lack of heavy-volume illegal trade at gun shows, is to post strict warnings for each gun vendor that they are in violation of the law if they are TOLD or otherwise INFORMED that a potential buyer is in a prohibited status, and that selling to such a person is a violation of law. The few illegal sales would shrink back even more, IMO:

Source of gun 1997 1991
Percent of State inmates
possessing a firearm
'97 '91
Street/illegal source 39.2 40.8
Friends or family 39.6 33.8
Gun show 0.7 0.6 <<<<<<<<
Flea market 1.0 1.3
Pawnshop 3.8 4.2
Retail store 8.3 14.7
Purchased from – 13.9 20.8

Total 100.0%100.0%


http://www.showmasters.us/Portals/0/pdf/Firearms%20Use%20by%20Offenders.pdf

[jpak]

37. Mpr reason to shut down the gun show trade - they suck

ass

yup

[gejohnston]

38. so................

The ends justify the means? Someone should take a flamethrower to every golf course because they suck, and its the official sport of the one percent.

[one-eyed fat man]

41. You make it clear

"Jedem das Seine" is your motto.

[Euromutt]

42. Heh. That reminds me of the motto of the thief

"Jedem das Seine, also mir auch das Seine."

("To each his own, therefore also to me his own" for the benefit of our non-German speakers.)

[Glassunion]

44. I bought a lamp at a gun show once.

Nice lamp.