Should the Democratic Party...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

Poll question: Should the Democratic Party...

...drop its position as a gun-control proponent?

[MineralMan]

1. Obama's coming for your guns, you know...

I read that on some right wing site. Booga Booga!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

2. BTW...

...I heard the sky is falling, too. ;)

[petronius]

3. He came for mine just last week actually, but I was able

to distract him with a plate of brownies and a long chat about college football. So, he ended up leaving empty-handed. Close call, though...

[SteveM]

16. I talked to him about basketball, and he offered me his speargun! nt

[oneshooter]

30. Where they your "special" brownies? n/t

[petronius]

55. Looking back, perhaps they should have been. Then maybe I'd have scored the free

speargun instead of SteveM... :)

[DonP]

4. Obama's not, but a bunch of other high ranking Dems won't shut up about it.

Schumer, Feinstein, Pelosi, Lauenberg, McCarthy, Daley etc.

Or are you suggesting that there really aren't any Dems that want to ban the most popular rifles in America today?

You know, rifles that account for less than 3% of all crimes, as if they were a scourge on the landscape?

[MineralMan]

6. Oh, yes...they'll be coming for them any day now...

How long has this been bantered about? Panic doesn't seem in order. In the meantime, you can buy them just about everywhere. I'm not concerned. Sorry. Have a nice day, won't you?

Incidentally, I have my own firearms. I've had them for years. Right now, I have all I need. If I want more, there's a huge Cabela's just down the road. They have lots. Or, I could go to Mills Fleet Farm, although their selection is smaller. :shrug:

[DonP]

14. There is no panic but they won't shut up about it.

You make the mistake of assuming everyplace is the same as where you live. In Chicago you'd be shit out of luck. No gun stores in Cook County, no shooting ranges either, indoor or outdoor and none that you could reach on public transportation. Besides no FFL will sell a Chicago resident a handgun anyway.

As far as guns go, In addition to my collection of WWII battle rifles I have three self built rifles on the AR-15 platform now. I live in Illinois and I've had the former (soon to be prisoner #23355812) Blago, Mike Madigan speaker of the house, his daughter the state AG Lisa Madigan, Mayor Daley and a bunch of his meat puppet state reps and senators all Dems, propose banning those rifles. Daley actually tried to get confiscation without compensation passed twice.

If I still lived in Cook County they would be banned, I'd be a convicted felon for building them and they could be confiscated by the Chicago Area Gun Enforcement (CAGE) unit of the Chicago police.

I take people who say things like "we don't want to ban anything, but you really don't need ...(fill in the blank) ... for hunting do you?"

In Illinois they happen to be all Dems, since we have no GOP in any office that matters.

So please don't pretend there aren't people out there that would like to take selected types of guns away from us. The only thing that seems to stop them is getting their ass thrown out of office when they try.

Obama's been smart and just shut up about it. it would be nice if we dropped the whole phony assault weapons ban script from the party platform and dropped the whole gun control issue. But some of the party "leaders" won't let it go.

[rl6214]

24. Ah yes, 'I have guns, I'm one of you'...

[MineralMan]

No, I'm obviously not that. But I do own several firearms.

I also believe that a well-regulated militia has to do with order and regulations, rather than the stretched definition that has to do with the regulation of clocks. Words are my life. What the founders meant is very clear. They'd have been shocked at today's situation, I'm very sure.

You will disagree. That's your privilege, which is also guaranteed by the Amendments to the Constitution.

[jeepnstein]

61. That's a genuine disagreement...

in my opinion. And I think you're fighting a losing battle arguing it but at least you're consistent and intellectually honest. And you are right that there should be some order in what is actually a suitable arm for militia service and those arms should be Constitutionally protected. I see no harm in clearly defining what arms should be born when responding to a "call to arms". I do see harm in cleverly using regulations to in fact disarm the population.

[MineralMan]

62. Sensible. In a few places, it's almost impossible to own firearms.

That's absolutely correct. That shouldn't be the case. In most places, however, you can own firearms, and many do. What sort of firearms should be available to the entire population is a matter of interest, for sure. In most of this country, one can purchase and own semi-auto rifles and carbines that would be suitable for military-type action. I believe that should be legal everywhere. Full-auto or select-fire weapons, on the other hand, perhaps not. Our firearms laws should be uniform throughout the country, in my opinion, but some regulation of firearm types seems appropriate.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

63. Please, if you would...

...articulate which of the pro-firearms tenets with which you have a problem.

I have no issue with restrictions on full auto or on crew served weapons. I don't think violent criminals or mental defectives should be allowed to legally own firearms. I think some businesses should be permitted to ban certain weapons with some constraints.

I'm just looking for a discussion.

:donut:

[MineralMan]

33. Dupe. Double click.

[MADem]

7. Grimy, gun-grabbing, grinch! Quelle horreur! That's FRENCH, doncha know! nt

[MineralMan]

10. Oui. Je comprends. Je parle un peu francais.

Hablo español también.

Я также говорю русский язык.

[MADem]

20. I learned a little o'that Russkie years ago, but I've forgotten most of it!

I do remember that BOLSHOI (I don't have the Russkie keyboard installed) means big! And I used to love that the word 'restaurant' looked like PECTOPAH...we used to say "Wanna go to the pectopah around the corner for a bite?"

Spanish was my first second language!

[MineralMan]

21. I can scarcely speak Russian anymore except haltingly, but

I can still read it fairly well. It's been many, many years, and I don't have much opportunity to speak it any longer. Spanish and French, I get to use often enough to keep me fairly conversational in both.

[MADem]

25. +1. nt

[krucial]

9. Guns

Heck,they said Obama was coming for all their guns and put all GOP members in FEMA camps from during the 2008 campaign,thats when they were encouraging their people to go out and buy up,and stock up on lots on guns and ammo right here in Jacksonville Florida,I was also warned about that there was going to be a lot of trouble if Obama won the election,according to two of my Co workers here,one who frequented the bars he went,said that Obama was so hated that they were going to be ready.
I asked him why so much hatred for someone who had done nothing to any of them,he beat around the bush ,but finally confessed that this is the south and they are not keen on any Black in the highest office of America.
They took the election so serious,that after Obama won the election,they did not speak to me for two weeks.

By the way I was the only Non White and African American who worked there at that time

[bowens43]

12. I wish. That would certainly be the only sane stance nt

[MineralMan]

13. Not really. There's that pesky 2nd Amendment in his way,

as he recognizes. That's why he's not coming for anyone's firearms. That's prohibited in the Constitution. Now, regulation of firearms isn't prohibited, and there are many regulations already in place.

[rl6214]

23. Didn't see that anywhere in the OP

In fact the only ones I see saying that are the anti-gun people.

[Hoyt]

5. Shoot, No. Democrats still have vision for a civilized society, at least more so than right wingers

Somehow, a bunch of folks walking around with guns in public just doesn't seem very civilized.

[SteveM]

17. Sell your stuff to the NRA; they pay royalties for cartoons. nt

[Hoyt]

22. Steve, you and your guns standing in line at Chuck E Cheeze would make a cool cartoon as well.

[SteveM]

27. But the NRA buys them from gun-controllers, Hoyt. Why is that?

I imagine because they sell their members and a lot of peripheral supporters on the notion that MSM's views on guns is hostile and representative of "liberal" causes and lifestyles. And it works, for them.

Chuck E Cheeze? If I'm going to put my arteries off-line for a couple of hours, I'd rather eat baby-back ribs. And Chuck-E-Cheeze won't let me in the door with my gun-laden wheel barrow.

[ileus]

8. Yes, we need to work toward a progressive stance on the 2A

[bowens43]

11. absolutly not.

We have already abandoned reason on so many other issues already. Doing the bidding of and supporting the death merchants makes us look like a bunch of freaked out , tea baggers.

There is alrready a party for the gun fetishists.

We should be pushing to BAN ALL HANDGUNS AND ASSAULT WEAPONS. All other guns, shotguns, hunting rifles etc shoold be strictly controlled.

[gejohnston]

18. We did?

abandon reason? Perhaps you did.
Ummmmm according to Thom Hartmann, there is good chance a lot of OWS folks are disillusioned teabaggers.
You mean gun fetishists like JFK (NRA life member), Truman, Brian Brian Schweitzer, Peter DeFazio.

We should be pushing to BAN ALL HANDGUNS AND ASSAULT WEAPONS. All other guns, shotguns, hunting rifles etc shoold be strictly controlled.

Other than losing elections, why? Most of the gun violence is in cities where gun laws are already strict. Outside of gangsters killing each other, our murder rate is quite low. Name one place where the violent crime rate or murder rate dropped?

There is nothing progressive or liberal about what you are proposing. Raymond G. Kessler, a lawyer-sociologist studied the issue and has some of the most sociologically sophisticated insights, came to the conclusion that gun control is inherently conservative if not reactionary because:

"(1) increase citizen reliance on government and tolerance of increased police powers and abuse; (2) help prevent opposition to the government; (3) facilitate repressive action by government and its allies; (4) lesson the pressure for major or radical reform; and (5) can be selectively enforced against those perceived to be a threat to government."

[SteveM]

19. I am a progressive; are you accusing me of not being one?

"There is alrready a party for the gun fetishists."

I don't know what you mean by "fetishist," but I own several guns, and fully support the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. I also vote Democratic. Are you implying that I am not a supporter of liberal/Democratic causes, but should therefore be in another "party?"

[rl6214]

26. Gun fetishist, gun nut, gun militant, gun hero...

All are just examples of the need to try to insult and put down any gun owner because of the lack of arguement on the anti-gun side.

[PavePusher]

28. What's an "assault weapon" and why should they be banned?

None of my firearms have assaulted anyone... or at least since I've owned them. Since many are obsolete military surplus items, I can not vouch for their history before they came to my home....

[derby378]

31. I'm interested, too

The gun-control movement has been trying to define "assault weapon" for over 20 years - have they finally succeeded? :hide:

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

35. It doesn't make much sense but...

...then the controllers aren't known for making sense.

Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
* Folding or telescoping stock
* Pistol grip
* Bayonet mount
* Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
* Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device which enables the launching or firing of rifle grenades)

Semi-automatic pistols with detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
* Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
* Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor
* Barrel shroud that can be used as a hand-hold
* Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more
* A semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm

Semi-automatic shotguns with two or more of the following:
* Folding or telescoping stock
* Pistol grip
* Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds
* Detachable magazine

[derby378]

36. Not a definition, then...

...just a laundry list of safety features and enhancements that somebody's mom complained about. Ducky!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

39. In the sense that...

...a definition is a statement of meaning that's true. Stringing together some random attributes without *MEANING* doesn't yield a meaningful definition. But that is what you get when you ask.

;)

[SteveM]

15. If you tire of this issue, if you think it is overwrought, then "Out! Damned spot!"

One cannot simultaneously say the issue is "dead," "inconsequential," "Obama's not going to take your guns away," or "it's a wedge issue which has no other purpose," and maintain that issue, percolating as it were on the back burner.

Rid the party of this issue. You cannot have it both ways.

If you wish to pursue gun-control, do so as a pressure group (as the GOP-founded, GOP-led does) Brady Center. Or lobby your representative. But the Democratic Party should drop its CONTINUED advocacy of an expanded and permanent "assault weapons ban," and similar such stuff, or continue to face the far superior forces which keep some millions of people from voting Democratic.

Challenge to the gun-controllers: Find a Democratic Party Platform which advocates for gun-control, or even MENTIONS gun policy, before the Zombies recorded "She's Not There" (1965?).

[Tuesday Afternoon]

32. +1 wish I could K&R this post. It can stand alone, worthy of its own OP

n/t

[SteveM]

65. Thanks, compositional warts and all! nt

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

66. While not advocating...

...gun-control, here is a popular Democratic President's thoughts on guns: "By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia,' 'the security of the nation,' and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms,' our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy… The Second Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason I believe the Second Amendment will always be important." John F. Kennedy

This is from 1959, before the Zombies recorded "She's Not There" in 1964.

:donut:

[derby378]

67. One of the many reasons I like JFK

:hi:

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

68. A hypothetical question...

...if JFK (a rather avid proponent of freedom) hadn't been shot, what parts of current Democratic ideology would be missing?

Or would he have, in the interim, started a new political party?

:wow:

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gejohnston]

34. a lot of assholes own cars too

but I have to ask, are you a vegetarian or anti-trophy hunting only?

[FlipTipton]

37. Car comment makes no sense...

Though I guess asshole wasnt the right word. I'm talking about people who seem like they cant wait for someone to break into their home, for any reason to shoot someone. My comment about the NRA was about the way they operate. Coloring books for kids, rally's in towns that just had a school shooting. They are a disgrace to gun ownership.
Personally, I'm more against the meat industry than anyone who legitimately hunts for food, though we both know it's usually more of a macho pissing contest. And it's most often not done in a responsible way. If an animal is to be killed every piece of that animal ought to be used for something. That being said I am completely against trophy hunting.
I am a vegetarian but it's because of the meat industry and for health reasons, not hunting. I believe in the right, but I dont and cant agree with the practices or mindset of many of today's hunters. If all your meat is acquired through responsible hunting practices, and for no other reason than food, than you're a far better person than any hunter I've met or overheard at the shooting range

[Tuesday Afternoon]

38. though we both know it's usually more of a macho pissing contest.

providing food for my family is a macho pissing contest?? news to me.



"And it's most often not done in a responsible way"
links to prove this statement, please

[FlipTipton]

43. No....

Like I said in the post that you didnt read completely, hunting for food is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned, and a hell of a lot better than supporting the meat industry. As far as links, that's obviously just my opinion, and it's based on conversations I over hear, and the hunter "types" I often come across. Of course it isnt true for everyone, but anyone who has a hunting trophies on the wall or takes pictures of their kill isnt simply feeding their family.... i.e. Pissing contest. Killing an animal is a huge responsibility and one that isnt taken seriously enough by too many people.

(I swear my original post was mostly on topic. Though I guess there was a "broad brush" attack in there. sorry mods).

[Tuesday Afternoon]

45. sorry mods? was it on them that you were using that broad brush?

trust me, I read and comprehended your post and still look for proof of your assertion. However, I see you have backed down to make it a personal anecdote so, I guess I will have to be satisfied with that.

[FlipTipton]

46. The proof...

of my opinion(never did anything but voice my personal opinion)is my personal encounters and experiences. You'll have to find your own, and draw your own conclusions. I spend a lot of time at the shooting range every week and tend to be surrounded by a lot of hunters. If you're looking for personal satisfaction you'll have to be more specific.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

47. never mind and thanks for the semi-apology

I accept it in the semi-manner in which it was intended.

oh....and by the way . . .

welcome to DU and especially the gun forum . . .

enjoy your stay.

[FlipTipton]

49. The apology confusion

I never apologized to you because I saw no reason. What is it you want an apology for...I aim to satisfy you.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

51. see post below

as you can see I am well satisfied with your piss poor aim. challenge you at the shooting range any ole time. :*

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

56. see post below

I think you think wrongly but, at least you think, I think.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

50. dude, whatever. thanks for using your post to me to apologize to the mods

for something that I never saw anyway. trust me, I am very well satisfied with your half assed attempts to cya. Provided me with much pleasure this evening.

ciao.

[FlipTipton]

52. My post to you

Was to address the fact that you called me out on something I didnt say. What I DIDNT say was that hunting for food was a pissing contest. I dont know what your complaint is. But thanks for trying.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

54. your entire statement:

I'm more against the meat industry than anyone who legitimately hunts for food, though we both know it's usually more of a macho pissing contest

the whole statement is full of fail.

really do not understand what the meat industry has to do with 2A

maybe the 1% hunts for a macho pissing contest but, I would not consider that to be the usual standard. If you do, then fine.

you then go on to say:
And it's most often not done in a responsible way --

and I asked you to prove that statement, as it has been my experience to be the opposite.

Evidently, your personal history has been the opposite of mine.

Perhaps it is best if we just agree to disagree.

[FlipTipton]

57. perhaps it is

But my comment about the meat indusrty was to someone else who asked me if I was a vegetarian. I'm a vegatarian because I dont agree with meat industry standards and practices, not because of hunting, as I said to that person. I'm against all sport hunting. Again, like I said, if someone needs to feed their family and hunts to do so, fine. I choose to be a vegetarian instead. Other than that (TO ME) it seems like a pissing contest when people at the range are showing all their buddies what they killed over the weekend. Believe me, If my family or myself needed to eat I will hunt until it kills me, but it wouldn't be a happy occasion, and certainly not one worthy of any celebration. Even cave men were aware of the responsibility that comes with killing an animal. That's all I'm going to say, and I'm not going to apologize for any of my opinions, just like I'd hope you wouldnt

[gejohnston]

40. right on

Coloring books for kids? Besides Eddie Eagle? When I was a kid, I hunted to supplement my mom's food stamps, but have not hunted since. That said, given the price of meat vs flat wages and the economy, I have considered taking it up hunting again or becoming a vegetarian.

[FlipTipton]

44. Vegetarianism...

Haha, Eddie Eagle...
Yeah, I also didnt feel like dying at 45 like my father did. There's a long history of heart problems in my family. I've lost a ton of weight since making the switch. My problem with the meat industry isnt the way the animals die, it's the way they live. I'm pretty sure they cant wait to die, and have no idea why they even exist in the first place.

[PavePusher]

58. "Coloring books for kids"?

Do you mean the Eddie the Eagle SAFETY PROGRAM? If not, reference, please.

"rally's in towns that just had a school shooting." Huh? Cite, please. Not sure what you are talking about.

"we both know it's usually more of a macho pissing contest. And it's most often not done in a responsible way." Yeah, you'll have to explain that one a bit more too.

"I dont and cant agree with the practices or mindset of many of today's hunters." Perhaps you could be more specific, as you haven't actually defined what you are talking about.

[oneshooter]

59. I am not sure, but I believe that he is referring to the

NRA Annual Meeting soon after Columbine. That meeting was booked and paid for two years in advance, and was cut short of the two weeks planned, allowing only the basic items that the charter called for.


Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[PavePusher]

60. I know that.

You know that.

But I think s/he should have the opportunity to present their personnal biases.

[ileus]

41. Our party needs to embrace safety and freedom.

[DainBramaged]

42. And in the guns forum no less.....

:eyes:

[SteveM]

69. I'd like to see this "in the open," like How Many Du Members Own Guns? nt

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.