You gotta love happy endings

[one-eyed fat man]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef0153941c7af1970b-pi

Chicago man beaten when he tries to rob mixed martial arts expert

Career loser, convicted burglar, ex-con Anthony Miranda can now add failed stick-up artist and car jacker to his resume. Pretty accomplished shit head for only 24 tears old. He tried to rob a man sitting in his parked car at gunpoint. Brandishing a handgun and demanding his valuables, after the driver complied, Miranda ordered the man out of the car.

The man got out, grabbed the handgun, and it was on. At some point, Miranda fired the weapon -- but shot himself in the ankle. When police arrived, the 33-year-old "victim" told authorities that he participates in mixed martial arts competitions.

Apparently, he's pretty good (if Miranda's mug shot is any indication, couldn't get it to show but the link will take you there.)

[Hoyt]

1. Yep, I love it. Another citizen handles a situation WITHOUT packing his own gun.

[one-eyed fat man]

3. Are you that good?

Don't need to bring one if your super ninja skills can take his, Ninja super dood?

I just like it when a criminal gets what he deserves from his erstwhile victim. Nothing like the immediate feedback of a righteous ass-whipping for a strong incentive toward behavior modification. It is likely to be only temporary, I am fully confident the next time Anthony hits the street he will more carefully select his victims, looking for those in wheelchairs or walkers. No more obviously ambulatory victims for him.

As far as I am concerned, if they put the thieving bastard's head on a pike and used it as an all-natural, environmentally friendly, bird feeder it would likely be the most useful thing the criminal son-of-a-bitch had done in their wasted existence.

[ileus]

4. There may be lead in substandard dental fillings.

[one-eyed fat man]

8. He is only 24

Since Crest, the first fluoride toothpaste came out in 1955 and a great many municipal waters systems were fluoridated back in the Fifties he is far less likely to have bad teeth than those of two generations before him.

Water fluoridation prevents cavities in both children and adults, with studies estimating an 18–40% reduction in cavities when water fluoridation is used by children who already have access to toothpaste and other sources of fluoride

There may be some increase in dental caries because bottled water use is seen as more "upscale" and the decline in the use of ordinary tap, and likely, treated water is limited to the underclasses.

Similarly, dental composite resins gained widespread use in the Nineties. There is great likelihood any fillings he might have are not amalgam, which for the last century have been mostly silver or gold based alloys. The likelihood he might present any real threat of introducing lead to the food chain is pretty low, so his head on a pike is still environmentally friendly.

[ileus]

14. But what about the illegal chemicals built up in his body...could hurt birds and small animals.

[one-eyed fat man]

17. He is a bit too corpulent

to be a speed freak or a meth head, unless the swelling gives a false impression. Hard to tell without looking for needle marks to see if he is hardcore. The bloody nose might be from cocaine, but likely the ass-whipping is responsible given the two black eyes.

I don't think the metabolites for THC would still be effective. But it would be worth observing the birds that peck his eyes out to see if they fly slower than normal, have difficulty in judging distances and make lousy landings.

[Hoyt]

5. Just pointing out majority of people handle situations without polluting society with more guns.

Sorry that you can't see yourself doing that.

[Maine_Nurse]

9. Yeah, I should have beat that bear that ended up in my house with a frying pan. nt

[ileus]

11. A bear? in the house...as in 4 legged furry thing with teeth and claws?

I've had a bear on my back porch eating dog food and scraps, but I didn't invite it into the house.

On the other hand we do make sure the door is latched properly now. I've got up 4 or 5 times after the kids let the dogs in after feeling a cold draft to find the door partially open. LOL

[Maine_Nurse]

16. Yeah, a young-ish male...

he was tall enough to break out a kitchen window and get his head and one arm/shoulder inside before my dogs tore into the poor thing. I managed to get my hunting pistol onto his head away from the dogs. The game warden that came said he was pretty scrawny for his length and figured that the large, tagged sow with cubs behind my place had probably kept him from the good feeding areas. I felt bad for the thing, but as far as I'm concerned our "castle law" applies to critters too.

[ileus]

22. How rude...he only wanted food, and maybe some stuff.

[jeepnstein]

57. Should have just shown him to the bathroom.

They do get tired of going in the woods, don't ya know.

[Euromutt]

47. "Where it got the frying pan from, I'll never know."

Thank you, I'll be here all week. Apologies to Groucho.

[one-eyed fat man]

10. Tell us, does a victim who gets himself killed meet with your approval?

Does a Good Samaritan who gets himself killed meet with your approval?

Do the apathetic citizens who step over a dying man, take pictures of him with their cell phone, rifle his pockets, while he is dying, yet fail to call the police represent the soul of urban sophisticates and uphold the Kitty Genovese tradition?

Is the Good Samaritan who succeeds in stopping an assault always a vigilante in your eyes?

The safest course of action, regardless of how many guns you might have, is to maintain a low profile and hope the aggressor does not see you. You can slink away hoping that you are not recognized in the security film footage.

If a Good Samaritan were in a position to blindside the assailant and stop the crime would your approval depend on his choice of weapon? Would a tire iron or ball bat be less noble than a katana?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

20. No - i really don't see myself doing that

You see, I don't train daily for MMA fights. My skills are better suited to other, more cerebral tasks.

[Hoyt]

23. How much do you train to shoot people?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

27. Never.

I practice hitting the target.

Besides - an hour or two at the range every other week is not nearly the same as the physical and mental commitment one must make to be a professional level MMA fighter.

I'm sorry you're unable to understand how they differ.

[one-eyed fat man]

50. I somehow got the idea

that they might have had in mind training me to shoot people when I got off the Greyhound at Fort Jackson in 1962 and there was this big sign that said, "Welcome to the United States Army."

Over the next twenty-six years I had plenty of opportunity to put that training to good use. Perhaps that is why our perspectives are so different.

You are like a virgin giving advice on sex.

[oneshooter]

51. Strange that. I had the same basic experience, only the sign read

Welcome to the United States Marine Corp.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Hoyt]

53. Maybe so, but somehow you have managed to transfer training related to enemy combatants to citizens.

That is sad. You aren't in the Army anymore. And citizens aren't the enemy or anything to fear.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

54. Someone who wishes to hurt me...

...is most assuredly an enemy.

[Hoyt]

58. And, how do you tell at a distance?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

60. Since I don't go looking for...

...a fight, I don't worry about them at a distance. Unless someone actively attempts to do me harm, I really couldn't care less what someone is doing.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

63. Those long-distance burglars, rapists and assaulters are hard to pick-out

[Hoyt]

66. So, how do you do it? If gunners wait until someone pulls a gun, it's too late.

Yet, the relatively small percentage that can't leave home without a gun or two, seem to have some way to detect a criminal at enough distance to pull their gun. It's obvious how toters who are right wing bigots do it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

67. In the OP the victim had been held at gunpoint for some time yet he prevailed

Of course not everyone is as well-built or trained as the victim in the OP but it does disprove your contention that once the perpetrator has a gun pulled its too late. There are also numerous articles of people sucessfully defending themselves after the initiation of a crime, so I'm not sure how you can make this argument.

[Hoyt]

70. Yes, he prevailed by not pulling a gun. If he had pulled a gun, the perp would likely have shot him.

If you guys achieve your objective of more and more guns in society and in public, criminals will just start shooting everyone they rob.

Then, the only time toters might prevail is if they shoot people on "suspicion" or are lucky enough to encounter a criminal who is not armed and are so excited about protecting their wallet and watch that they shoot the unarmed teenager in the head.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

72. Unarmed vs. armed is safer? Is this what you're suggesting?

Then, the only time toters might prevail is if they shoot people on "suspicion" or are lucky enough to encounter a criminal who is not armed and are so excited about protecting their wallet and watch that they shoot the unarmed teenager in the head.

There seem to be numerous articles in this forum of gun owners successfuly defending themseves after a crime was initiated.

[Hoyt]

79. Not many tales of gunners drawing and shooting while a gun is already pointed at their head.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

88. If you spent as much effort devising solutions to crime as you do making unfounded assertions and

insults this debate would be moot.

[rl6214]

85. "the only time toters might prevail"

Isn't a criminal that carries a gun a "TOTER"?

[Hoyt]

90. Good point to remember -- almost any toter is a problem for society.

[rl6214]

84. Most "gunners" I have ever seen were in the door of a helicopter

over enemy territory so I think they would know at a distance who the enemy is. I think if they leave home with a gun or two it's really ok.

Do you really understand anything you are saying?


Gunners

can't leave home without a gun or two

Toters



You really are hilarious

[Hoyt]

91. Believe it or not, RL -- most of us aren't dealing with an enemy situation in this country.

If it ever gets to that point, a lot of innocent people will be killed/maimed because of all the guns you guys have promoted, glorified, coveted, bought, distributed, glamorized, etc.

[one-eyed fat man]

89. So, Hoyt

Are you confused by the security camera footage?

With your razor keen wit, and stupendous powers of observation, I'd bet if some guy stuck a knife to your throat or a gun in your face, and said, "You're coming with me," you would likely figure out a crime was being committed and who the victim was.

It is a leap of faith, but I'd bet even you could figure out who the bad guy is.

[Hoyt]

92. Yep, but when they are that close - odds of surviving are better without trying to draw your gun.

They didn't go to the trouble of covering themselves if they intended on shooting you for handing over the money. Now, you make a feeble attempt to draw your gun, and you aren't likely to make it . . . . . .even if you try what on gunner suggested, the ole "dodge and shoot" trick.

You are fooling yourself if you think your gun is going to save you in the situation depicted in your photos. You've shown those several times before, so you must collect stuff like that? I'd lay off it awhile.

[gejohnston]

93. you know what amazes me

I have yet to find one control militant who:
know anything about firearms outside of disinforming talking points and inaccurate TV shows and movies.
Are not knowledgeable about self defense issues or self defense; thus, basing arguments on disinforming talking points
has a well thought out argument based on facts or critical thinking
not a closet fan of Robert Bork

[Hoyt]

94. Don't need to know much about firearm, just what comes out of it, why people pull trigger, etc.

I have yet to meet one person who carries a firearm on an almost daily basis who is not warped from too much "gun culture" BS. Pretty much the same for those who have sizable weapons cache.

[gejohnston]

95. missed the other three

Are not knowledgeable about self defense issues or self defense; thus, basing arguments on disinforming talking points
has a well thought out argument based on facts or critical thinking
not a closet fan of Robert Bork
I'll add proper word usage:

cache

Verb:Store away in hiding or for future use.
Noun:A collection of items of the same type stored in a hidden or inaccessible place.

arsenal

— noun
1. a store for arms, ammunition, and other military items
2. a workshop or factory that produces munitions
3. a store of anything regarded as weapons: an arsenal of destructive arguments

armory

noun
1. a secure place for the storage of weapons
2. armour generally
3. a. ( US ) a National Guard base
b. ( US ) a building in which training in the use of arms and drill takes place; drill hall
c. ( Canadian ) ( plural ) such a building used for training and as headquarters by a reserve unit of the armed forces
4. resources, as of arguments or objections, on which to draw: they thought they had proved him wrong, but he still had a few weapons in his armoury
5. ( US ) a place where arms are made

[Hoyt]

96. If you can't converse without resorting to dictionary definitions, I suggest you are not capable of

assessing a situation in the highly unlikely event one might actually arise.

But glad you enjoyed wasting your time when you could have been polishing your gun.

[gejohnston]

97. what being a word usage geek has to do with

situation awareness escapes me. I learned the origins of each of the words, learning is never a waste of time.
Polishing which gun?

[Hoyt]

98. Each of those in your cache need regular oiling.

[one-eyed fat man]

55. Let me assure you

When faced with someone at arm's length who intends to kill you they are not "enemy combatants" any longer, it has become personal. It is not a shooting contest, it is a fight, and a gun may not be enough because even a dying man can still kill you.

There are people who prey on their fellows. You can naively believe the fiction, "There are no bad men," You obviously have never encountered one; you are alive. Maybe your luck will hold, maybe it won't. I don't care.

But I have seen what three teenagers did to an eccentric 87 year old farmer they mistakenly thought kept cash in his house. It would have been less brutal if they had killed him. They left him, blinded, crippled, and brain damaged for 28 dollars and 17 cents.

You can prepare for the risks and hazards life entails as you choose. I will do likewise. Emergencies, disasters, catastrophes, man-made or otherwise, I have made considerations for those I think will most affect me, my home and my family. My life experiences have caused me to choose differently than you.

[Hoyt]

59. God, I'd hate to walk around all day in this country feeling like I'm prey or something.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

61. So would I

I don't either.

[Hoyt]

71. I and 96% of population don't either and we don't have a gun or two tucked in our pants.

[rl6214]

86. Again, worrying what people have tucked in their pants...

Sounds like something a sexual predator does.

[oneshooter]

62. Yes you are, you just haven't been found by your predator,yet. n/t

[Hoyt]

73. No I'm not. Won't spend life worrying about -- and arming up - over something unlikely.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

64. Do you feel threatened enough to legislate what honest, law-abiding people do?

[Hoyt]

65. I don't think carrying guns in society is positive -- further, if folks weren't so into guns,

There wouldn't have to be many laws. Unfortunately, a small percentage (like less than 4%) think more guns -- and, worse, more strapped to waistbands or tucked away elsewhere -- is good for society. Really sad when you think about it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

68. Maybe if there weren't as many criminals trying to victimize people

so-called "toters" wouldn't feel the need to "tote." Weapons, guns or otherwise, are a fact of human existence. There has never been a society that hasn't had weapons. If there were they didn't live long enough to tell us.

Why target people who just want to protect their homes, businesses and families? Why not target actual criminals? After all, the latter group is substantially smaller and are the ones who actually, maliciously intend harm.

[Hoyt]

74. I'm fine with targeting criminals, as long as it is not done by citizens playing judge, jury, Jesus.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

99. And how do you define that?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

49. it just proves that the gun was a tool --

the morals belong to the men and the use of the gun depended on the difference of the morals of each man.

[SteveM]

38. I am! Why, I'd just pop my belt, and make him trip over my gut. Then..

While he's on the ground, fart mightily as I sat on him. That's the trick. Works every time.

[jeepnstein]

56. I seriously doubt he is.

The guy who taught me Akido and unarmed self-defense was as skilled a street fighter as I've ever met. I mean he was action movie material. When he got to the part about how to deal with an assailant armed with a handgun he started the lecture with "You're going to die if you ever have to even try this. So at least you die trying, right?". It's easy for an internet commando to say they can do it perfectly every time but for the rest of us who have had a wee bit of training you have to be realistic.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

19. Of course....

...Said citizen is a professional fighter...

Lets just ignore that shall we?

[Atypical Liberal]

21. Because EVERYONE can and should be a mixed martial arts expert.

[Hoyt]

24. Much better to just strap a gun or two on so you can shoot someone without breaking a sweat.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

26. Well that and....

be able to defend yourself without decades of training, having to live in a gym, be able to actually have a life outside of training for a fight, do things like have a job, raise kids, etc, and then there's the whole fact that many people simply do not have the physical capabilities...


Do you ever actually think Hoyt?

[Hoyt]

34. Yes, I do think -- that's reason I don't buy the BS that people need a gun in public.

You don't think this guy has trained and trained to be the baddest gun toting ass in the west:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRt_xBl7dLU&feature=related


And, I bet you've spent a lot of time and effort in training with your gun too.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

39. Does not appear that you do but whatever.

One youtube vid is not evidence of anything except...one youtube vid.

I freely admit I have spent some time becoming competent with a tool that can cause a lot of harm if misused, but I will also freely admit I have spent far LESS time than I would have to in order to defend myself without one just as effectively. I spend far more time annually learning how to ride a motorcycle better than I do enhancing my shooting skills.

I am "minute of bad guy" accurate out to about 25'. For a self defense handgun, that's about all I expect to be.

[one-eyed fat man]

43. Why don't you answer the uncomfortable questions?

Is the victim who gets himself killed somehow nobler than one who successfully defends himself?

Is it only acceptable if his martial art is made to build character, improve health, instill discipline, or engage in a fair fight?

That is not a martial art, it is a civilized sport and will not help you survive any more than hurling the javelin for track and field. At close quarters and against a committed fighter, even taking a gun to a knife fight may not save you.

You have admitted to having no combat experience, yet you presume to lecture those who actually have been in hand to hand combat with someone who meant to kill them. It is ugly, it is brutal and it does not last long. If you have lost the imitative, and are subjected to an attack unawares, regardless of your arms or lack of them, you are at a tremendous disadvantage.

Now, if you are a drug dealer, thief, or some other kind of career criminal your odds of being the object of unsavory attention from your business partners or competitors is higher than if you are just and ordinary person. If you are a cab driver or convenience store clerk your odds of being robbed or attacked also increase.

You, the elitist twit you are, would counsel some single working mother doing the graveyard shift at a 7-11 to do what? You think she would taken the job if she weren't already in dire straits? Yet you would call her a rude toter if she used a gun to fend off a robber. Much better she let herself get herded into the cooler for whatever entertainments her assailant has in mind. yup

[Atypical Liberal]

46. Is that a requiement for defending oneself from violence?

Much better to just strap a gun or two on so you can shoot someone without breaking a sweat.

Why?

Why is it a requirement that people who would resist violent assault need to break a sweat to do it?

Is not their lives being in danger sufficient? Why should one need to sweat while defending themselves? In what way is someone who sweats while defending themselves from violence superior to someone who does not?

I would think that everyone, weak, strong, young, old, should have the right to defend themselves from violence using whatever means suits them best.

Sweat is optional.

[ileus]

35. And young, and maybe strong.

[rl6214]

83. Was he going on a trip? Why would he want to PACK his gun?

Then it wouldn't be accessable to him. I would much rather conceal carry so I have ready access and can defend myself even better.

[jpak]

100. +1

yup

[ileus]

2. wonder what this criminals plans were...life is too important to go around unarmed

[Hoyt]

6. Apparently us 96%ers feel life/society is too important to go around in public with a gun or two.

[ileus]

12. you say potatoe, I say potato.

I carry because I think society and life are too important to risk to chance.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

13. A couple questions:

- to which 96% are you referring?
- is hypocrisy required for an anti-rights agenda or does it just help?

[Hoyt]

25. 96% who don't carry a gun in public -- 96%ers.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

30. I suspect your entire 96% meme is inaccurate

If all you've done is taken total population compared to total CCWs issued, you're completely ignoring not only the states which do not require them, and the ones which do not release such data, but you're disregarding that about 1/3 of the total population legally cannot carry because they are underage, an additional 5% is likely forbidden due to criminal history, another 2% due to psychological history, etc....then there are the entire populations of states such as CA, NY, IL, HI, etc where it is virtually impossible to obtain one. They should be removed from the count as well.

Taking THAT into consideration, you may find there is a much greater percentage of those who can carry who do so.

[Hoyt]

36. Feeling outnumbered? Yep, you are in small minority -- about on par with snake handler/worshipers.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

40. Doesn't matter to me either way.

Like a snake handler/worshiper, it is my right to exercise as I see fit, and not your place to control it.

I feel no need to be in the majority on anything Hoyt. I'm sorry for you that your existence is validated by fitting into some demographic norm.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

48. Well...

...that makes you 3 short of the 99%. Keep trying. ;)

[one-eyed fat man]

15. Where's the picture?

You said you would buy the shirt.



I can think of a couple places in Atlanta you should wear it. Just in case you forgot where to order.

http://www.cafepress.com/gunfree01.57977

[Hoyt]

28. I have probably walked those areas many times WITHOUT a gun or machete -- or incident.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

31. Great - so did this guy.

However, this time, there WAS an incident.

It just so happened in this case the criminal was stupid and the victim had the physical ability to stop the crime without need of weapons. The story is newsworthy because everyone with half of a functioning brain recognizes instinctively the REALLY bad luck the potential thief had.

[rrneck]

69. I can't wait for DU3

to see if it will eliminate this stupid bullshit.

[Hoyt]

75. Yea, maybe it will eliminate the small percentage here who think more guns in society is good.

[rrneck]

78. Maybe

it will encourage people to stop copy and pasting the same bullshit mantra that bears no semblance to reality. This forum was not designed as a target rich environment for whining public scolds.

[Hoyt]

80. Nor was it designed to promote gun proliferation and right wing gun BS.

In fact, it appears a special forum was created to get it out of the mainstream since only a small percentage here are obsessed with carrying guns in public and promoting proliferation/acquisition of ever more lethal weapons.

[rrneck]

82. Ah. Copy and paste boilerplate #4368. One of my favorites. nt

[rl6214]

87. 96%er? What are you trying to do, equate yourself to the 99%ers?

[montanto]

7. LMFAO that picture is worth a thousand words. Its a good thing he only

shot himself in the ankle.

[Simo 1939_1940]

18. A more comical scenario took place in L.A. a number of

years ago. A carjacker noticed a group of young women in athletic attire pull their van into a gas station and decided to boost their van - assuming that they were members of a volleyball/soccer/fill-in-the-blank team. Wrong. They were members of a karate team on their way to/back from a competition. Apparently even when he realized he was out-gunned he continued fighting, to the point where the young women were forced to whip his ass pretty seriously before pinning him down and waiting for police.

[Hoyt]

29. Another story of women taking out perp WITHOUT a gun -- that's what we need to be applauding, not

folks walking around in public with guns.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

32. You did notice....

...the story was of a number of women who were highly trained in martial arts, correct?

Guess that means in your world, only highly trained men should venture out alone, and women should only leave their homes if highly trained in the martial arts and surrounded by 3-5 of their friends...

[Hoyt]

33. No, it's further proof you can survive without a gun everywhere you go.

I suspect one of those ladies could have handled the guy. Gunners here can't even walk out the door without stopping to arm up.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

41. You can suspect it all you want...

...and you'd be wrong.

In contests of strength between men and women, the woman will lose virtually every single time. In a straight up fight she's going to get her ass kicked severely.

There is a reason there is no mixing of sexes in contact fighting sports. Women have no hope of being the equal of a man in that regard. It isn't sexist - it is biology. (muscle and bone density, nerve reaction speed, etc...)

[friendly_iconoclast]

45. Then *you* needn't worry so much about people with guns, as you claim...

...they can be disarmed. Looks like you want it both ways, as usual.

[sylvi]

52. Well, I would love to have a team of young female karate

Well, I would love to have a team of young female karate experts to carry around with me. But for those times they just can't make it, I'll carry my gun.

[Hoyt]

76. You'd carry it anyway.

[spin]

37. Using the training I received in martial arts, I may be able to disarm a person ...

with a handgun or a knife at close range. If the person who has a knife is an experienced knife fighter, my chances drop dramatically. If the person is armed with a firearm and is smart enough to stay out of my reach, it's necessary to do a judo roll out to get close enough to disarm him. The chances of this being successful are at the best 50%.

Of course there is also an excellent chance that I will be shot or cut in my attempt even if my attacker is at close range.

My instructor was one of the highest ranked judokas in the nation who held a 8th degree black belt in Judo (red and white belt) and a sixth degree black belt in Karate. He often told his class that a man with a .45 auto was a ninth degree black belt.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

42. Ah, a truth so many people wont recognize...

Martial arts only work at contact distances. Open that space up a bit, and the guy with the gun has a dramatic advantage..

[friendly_iconoclast]

44. I think they *do* recognize it- but won't admit it... n/t

[Hoyt]

77. But, when you open the space up, you are even less likely to need the gun. Well, unless

you are one of those itching to try that new gun out on flesh rather than on targets, and while daydreaming.

[friendly_iconoclast]

101. This is like listening to Newt Gingrich talk about the rigors of combat

I'm curious- is this a Georgia thing, pontificating about subjects you have no personal knowledge of?

[rl6214]

102. "you are one of those itching to try that new gun out on flesh rather than on targets,"

You are a sick man

[ileus]

104. He's a rude anti-toter.

[Hoyt]

81. So, I guess you ran out and bought a .45.

[ileus]

103. My judo instructor had broke his back in the Army.

The 3 years I took Judo he was in his late 50's (1986-88) had broken his back and several other limbs. I look at myself now still 15 years younger than he was then...he's my hero.

I went out and bought a 45...