The Washington Post Commenters' Poll - Handgun Regulations

[mikeb302000]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-user-polls/post/the-nations-gun-laws-your-take/2011/12/08/gIQA7FRkfO_blog.html">The Washington Post commenters' poll
"your take on handgun regulation and its effects in the United States."

I didn't count them, but right away there were the usual pro-gun thoughtless knee-jerk remarks. For example:

I am a professor, and was on another university campus when I heard of yesterday's VT incident. I immediately felt quite vulnerable. Had that happened on my campus, I would very much have wanted to be in possession of gun that I could use to defend myself, my colleagues, and my students.

and the classic:

We will never know how concealed carry could have stopped Cho, but we are absolutely certain of the results of no concealed carry.

My idea about guns on campus is like my belief about concealed carry in general and even guns in the home, http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2011/12/my-recent-post-on-statistics-for-deaths.html">they do more harm than good. The pro-gun crowd loves to overlook that armed people in the vicinity of an berserk killer rarely can stop the shooting in time, and sometimes, as in the most recent case, lose their own lives.

Cho is often hailed as an example of the failure of gun control systems because he bought his guns legally. But, the problem in that case was too lax laws as far as the mental health reporting goes. Same with Loughner. And he provided a shining example of Arizona's most bizarre policy of "Constitutional Carry."

I believe certain voices in the gun-rights community take their cue from the NRA and the gun manufacturers in purposely highlighting incidents which justify their fear-driven choice to be armed. Although these incidents are anecdotal and even rare, they are dramatic and convince other weak, insecure and fearful people that having a gun is the right idea. Common sense goes out the window and we have an ever-increasing spiral of people justifying their own behavior by convincing others.

The end result is The United States is the laughing stock of the entire developed world. Jokes are made about us and lots of people are dying.

The other fallacy of the pro-gun argument is the distinction between law-abiding gun owners and criminal gun owners. Of course they're different in certain respects, no one denies that, but the thing that ties them together like fraternal twins is the gun. All of those guns start out the legal property of somebody and due to http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2011/11/busting-myth-gun-control-laws-dont.html">the shabby mish-mash of so-called gun control laws in the country they flow unabated from the law-abiding twin to the criminal twin. Naturally the good twin raises up his hands in feigned innocence and proclaims no responsibility for this.

What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/">(cross posted at Mikeb302000)

[friendly_iconoclast]

1. Take it up with your Congressperson, Mike.

I'm sure the <Whatever State Mike Is From> Expatriates For Gun Control are quite influential, and will no doubt get a
sympathetic hearing.

[Old and In the Way]

2. I would suggest a controlled social experiment, for society's edification .

Let's allow 50,000 of the most vociferous, hardcore supporters of the 2nd Amendment/RKBA/CCW rally with full loaded weaponry at any one of the major college football venues. Make it a big rally with speeches from the NRA, just to get the juices flowing. Without warning, randomly introduce a dozen strings of lit firecrackers simultaneously throughout the stadium and lets see what happens. I would predict that we'd witness something akin to Chaos Theory that, once underway, is impossible to stop. We could expand the experiment and duplicate in various regions of the country to control for geographic location and cultural factors to see if the results are repeatable.

If there are no casualties resulting from this experiment, I will consider my assumptions on guns and civilian armed populations to be misguided and that there is indeed no threat to arming the entire US population.

If it is a disaster of horrifying magnitude, then I think we can all agree that arming an entire campus of 18 year olds might not be a good idea.

[friendly_iconoclast]

3. "arming an entire campus of 18 year olds" would certainly *not* be a good idea.

However, no one that I am aware of has proposed such a thing- so that argument is mostly straw.


I invite your (and anyone else that cares to) comment at this thread- it's been an open for nearly a year.
It's sadly lacking in substantial replies, I'm afraid:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x382537

"What *empirical* evidence do you have that legal CCW weapons at colleges are harmful?"

[Old Codger]

6. Oregon

Check out all the massacres that have occurred at colleges around Oregon, it is legal to carry concealed there, scarey as hell for sure, students dieing left and right.

Better add his I guess
:sarcasm:


P.S. 18 year old's cannot legally own a handgun and cannot be issued a CCW.

[PavePusher]

9. Not quite accurate.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/oregon.pdf

In Oregon, one may own at 18, but you can not obtain a CHL until 21. One may carry openly at 18 without a CHL.

[Old Codger]

14. Right

Just cannot buy one from a licensed dealer or at a gun show if 25 or more are on sale there

in theory, then, a person above the age of 18 could legally purchase a handgun as part of a private party sale. They just cannot carry it, or transport it loaded.

But cannot buy ammo either...

in reference to the worries about all those armed 18 year old's

My main point is that it is legal for a CCW to carry on campus, and there have not been any massacres that I have heard of....

[PavePusher]

18. Yes, they can open carry. n/t

[Old Codger]

24. They can

But not on campus, that was the original thing I was posting about the outrage and fear some seem to feel about it being legal to carry on campus causing lots of shootings.. Doesn't happen.

[PavePusher]

25. O.K., sorry, I missed what you were trying to say.

Gun laws can be so confusing, I get a bit pedantic occasionally to make sure everything is as clear as possible.

[Old Codger]

27. I know

How that goes, grew up with no restrictions, anyone could do most anything, didn't have the problems we have now days. learned to shoot as a cub scout and through the schools shooting teams. laws now days are a mess.. you at least know about "handgunlaw.us" it is a good informative site for sure...

[TheCowsCameHome]

5. That would be interesting

Someone should try it at an NRA convention.

[Straw Man]

8. I would suggest another controlled experiment.

Take a realistic-looking AK-style airsoft gun and paint the orange muzzle black. With it, charge into the nearest large police station screaming "Die, infidel dogs!" Refuse to put the "weapon" down, no matter what. If you survive the encounter, we can conclude that it is safe to arm our police. If not, we must begin disarmament of our law enforcement community forthwith.

Isn't it fun to think up outlandish and ludicrous situations to draw attention away from the untenable nature of our positions?

Ban firecrackers from football stadiums. It's the only way we'll be safe.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

15. Sure.

Or we could discuss ideas that a basis in logic or reason. ;)

[SteveM]

31. Hell, just light a string of firecrackers at any game now, Old, and see what happens.

[PuffedMica]

4. 'The end result is The United States is the laughing stock of the entire developed world' ...

Unsourced quotes often have a grain of truth:

In 1960, Robert Menard was a commander aboard the USS Constellation when he was part of a meeting between United States Navy personnel and their counterparts in the Japanese Defense Forces. Fifteen years had passed since VJ Day, most of those at the meeting were WWII veterans, and men who had fought each other to the death at sea were now comrades in battle who could confide in each other. Someone at the table asked a Japanese admiral why, with the Pacific Fleet devastated at Pearl Harbor and the mainland U.S. forces in what Japan had to know was a pathetic state of unreadiness, Japan had not simply invaded the West Coast. Commander Menard would never forget the crafty look on the Japanese commander's face as he frankly answered the question. 'You are right,' he told the Americans. 'We did indeed know much about your preparedness. We knew that probably every second home in your country contained firearms. We knew that your country actually had state championships for private citizens shooting military rifles. We were not fools to set foot in such quicksand.'

The Japanese sure were laughing and joking about the United States in 1941.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

16. Actually more like 1 of 4 homes but...

...from Isoroku Yamamoto: "You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

29. A laughing-stock, true, but not because of guns

the few Europeans I know are more curious about our approach to health care.

[Tejas]

7. Self-preservation is a "thoughtless kneejerk reaction"?

I didn't count them, but right away there were the usual pro-gun thoughtless knee-jerk remarks. For example:

I am a professor, and was on another university campus when I heard of yesterday's VT incident. I immediately felt quite vulnerable. Had that happened on my campus, I would very much have wanted to be in possession of gun that I could use to defend myself, my colleagues, and my students.



Really?

[Straw Man]

10. So THAT'S where all my guns have gone.

The other fallacy of the pro-gun argument is the distinction between law-abiding gun owners and criminal gun owners. Of course they're different in certain respects, no one denies that, but the thing that ties them together like fraternal twins is the gun. All of those guns start out the legal property of somebody and due to the shabby mish-mash of so-called gun control laws in the country they flow unabated from the law-abiding twin to the criminal twin. Naturally the good twin raises up his hands in feigned innocence and proclaims no responsibility for this.

My evil twin took them! I'd like to meet that dude someday. What's that you say? It's just a lame metaphor? Oh, OK. Never mind.

"All of those guns"? Really? Every gun produced and sold in the US ends up in criminal hands? Or just a percentage? And what is that percentage? And how many of those end up in criminal hands because they were stolen? I guess we need to add theft to our "mish-mash of so-called gun control law," huh? Oh, it's already illegal? OK, never mind.

[rrneck]

13. I'd like to meet mine too.

The fucker owes me money.

[spin]

11. Florida has had licensed concealed carry since 1987 ...

2,092,966 concealed weapons permits have been issued and as of 11/30.2011, 878,174 people hold valid Florida carry permits. In the 24 year period since the law was passed only 168 licenses have been revoked for a crime committed while using a firearm after the license was issued.
source: http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.pdf

The point is that the Florida process for granting a concealed weapons permit which includes a background check and has a training requirement works.

Could the laws involving the sale of handguns be improved? In my opinion the answer is yes. I agree with Obama's position which he stated in an op-ed to the Arizona Daily Star shortly after the Tucson shooting.

President Obama: We must seek agreement on gun reforms

• First, we should begin by enforcing laws that are already on the books. The National Instant Criminal Background Check System is the filter that's supposed to stop the wrong people from getting their hands on a gun. Bipartisan legislation four years ago was supposed to strengthen this system, but it hasn't been properly implemented. It relies on data supplied by states - but that data is often incomplete and inadequate. We must do better.

• Second, we should in fact reward the states that provide the best data - and therefore do the most to protect our citizens.

• Third, we should make the system faster and nimbler. We should provide an instant, accurate, comprehensive and consistent system for background checks to sellers who want to do the right thing, and make sure that criminals can't escape it.

Porous background checks are bad for police officers, for law-abiding citizens and for the sellers themselves. If we're serious about keeping guns away from someone who's made up his mind to kill, then we can't allow a situation where a responsible seller denies him a weapon at one store, but he effortlessly buys the same gun someplace else.

Read more: http://azstarnet.com/article_011e7118-8951-5206-a878-39bfbc9dc89d.html#ixzz1g9GKapHC

[ileus]

12. I recommend moving out of the USA if you want to feel safe.

[DonP]

17. About what I'd expect from you

You choose to live immersed in a culture that couldn't wait to embrace true fascism complete with a benevolent despot that would assure the safety of the citizenry. As long as the citizens weren't Jewish of course.

The concept of independence, personal responsibility and self reliance seem to be totally foreign to you. And you continue to conflate criminals with law abiding US citizens, as if there's no difference and I assume in your mind there isn't.

As John Adams said, "may your chains rest lightly on you" and I'll add may your checks from your UN masters always clear the bank in a timely manner.

In the meantime the rest of us will go to the range any time we choose with pretty much any firearm we can afford that's meets legal standards. Today that's a homebuilt AR-15 with a 20 inch free floated barrel and an M1 Garand. You know, the same rifle that a bunch of "rude toters" carried from Sicily to the border of Switzerland a while back?

[rl6214]

20. Well said Don...

My favorite rifles are my Ar15s and my M1 Garands.

[rl6214]

19. You are working on getting the 2A repealed aren't you Mikey?

Or are you just blogging about it and then posting blind links to your blog anywhere on the internet you can?

[ileus]

21. Mine have never done any harm in the home.

[ileus]

22. Jokes are made out of us? really....

[ileus]

23. So legal gun owners and criminals are twins in your book?

[aikoaiko]

26. Disparaging lawful gun owners is a strange way to convince them to embrace more restrictions

No wonder your side is losing so badly.

:rofl:

[fightthegoodfightnow]

28. Scared?

Sounds like you are scared and you think having a gun, concealed or not, is going to make you safe. It will not.

Your circular logic that gun control laws don't work and should be dropped because they are not enforced only suggest they should be enforced and made stronger.

The murder on Tech campus was done with a gun made in straw gun sale that could have been prevented with a law the NRA opposes.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

30. .

I see logic and facts have not yet contaminated your beliefs.

[SteveM]

32. Are you responding to the right poster?