tell us about when you defended yourself against a lethal attack

[shatoga]

If you want to be judged as an "expert' capable of telling everyone else why they should not be able to defend themselves.

Tell us about when you defended yourself against a lethal attack;
and why you are still alive to tell the tale.

Emphasis on why the rest of us should not be able to defend ourselves
against armed criminals.
Please....

[xJlM]

1. Interesting...

You make a valid question, but I don't think the answer's quite that simple.

The only real enemy I'm afraid of works for my "government", and I'm pretty sure there's no amount of arms that's going to deter them. In fact, they want you using conventional means of self defense to enable their gun control arguments to their sheep. Plus it's easier to paint you as a whacko that way.

The real important battle will be the one we make for the hearts and minds of the electorate. I'm really interested to see where that's going to go, but already I'm starting to see backtracking and doubletalk. And a lot of folks will assume that we're destined for more of the same old shit, and simply tune out.

[liberalmuse]

2. People have the right to defend themselves...

I don't remember ever believing otherwise. Most people will try to defend themselves when attacked. What is your point? Most people don't get attacked. This is the culture of fear once again rearing it's paranoid head.

Okay. Is this about guns? IMO, this is an issue for state's rights, after implementing reasonable federal guidelines on obtaining guns, that is. Each state seems to have it's own personality--in other words, I completely agree with Howard Dean on this issue. I won't own a gun, though I know how to use one very well, so I'm not completely gun-phobic. I don't believe in banning much of anything, except slavery, child porn, animal cruelty, stupid gun owners who leave thier guns lying around for their kids to play with--or any activity that carelessly uses, abuses, or tramples on the rights of any non-consensual, sentient being.

On edit: correcting spelling, maybe...

[shatoga]

3. stupid gun owners

I think we agree on that issue.
Limiting access to guns to only responsible law abiding adults.
but that's what the CCW permit process does quite effectively.

Now,
when have you fought for your life?

How and what did you survive?

Why does that experience make you believe nobody else should be
armed and able to defend themselves?

enlighten us

[iverglas]

13. why, why, why

"Why does that experience make you believe nobody else should be armed and able to defend themselves?"

Why do you ask dumb loaded questions?

Stopped beating your dog yet?

GET it???

But no, that's not quite as clever and twisted as yours, is it ... and I don't think I can be quite clever and twisted enough right now to come up with a good analogous one.

So let's just be literal.

Why do you demand that people tell you "why" something is a fact that probably is not a fact? Why do you demand that people tell you "why" they believe something that they probably do not believe?

Let's be even more literal.

Why would you CLAIM that my experience in a particular matter is the REASON why I advocate a particular public policy?

Why would you think it wise to mischaracterize someone else's position on a particular public policy issue by describing it in terms that describe YOUR incomplete and unproved allegation of what it is?

Where do you actually think this kind of behaviour is going to get you, or any society you belong to?

Sometimes I can understand why some people might feel the need for firearms. If constantly surrounded in real life by people who demonstrate such little respect for others and such single-minded insistence on getting their own way in everything even at the cost of the complete breakdown of mutual trust that these antics can only contribute to bringing about ... I might too.

Let me ask you: why does what you ate for breakfast make you believe that any criminal who wants a gun should be able to get one by lunch time?

GET IT??????

If you want a civil answer to a question, try asking a civil question.

.


.

[slackmaster]

4. I can't be sure if my life was in danger

The only time I've ever successfully defended myself was against a group of apparent Latino gang members. I was repairing my bike by the side of the road.

Their "leader" approached me, hitting his clenched fists together and asking if I wanted to fight. I'm very sure he said "Do you want to fight?" twice.

I brandished a knife in one hand and a socket wrench in the other, smiled, and asked "What did you say?"

He said "What time is it?"

I told him "Ten to."

He asked "Ten to what?"

I said "Ten to your own business."

They walked away.

Every other time I've come into a fight situation with groups of strangers I've gotten my ass kicked. Only one serious injury.

[MrBenchley]

5. The last time I faced danger

I was at a social club arguing with a bunch of blowhards who were blabbering about the RKBA...one turned out to have brought his little metal friend along, and the cops were called to take him away.

[demsrule4life]

6. That made as much sense as the guy that got shot in NY

last week while laughing at some Bloods gang members.

[MrBenchley]

8. Most shootings ARE senseless, dems

because so often the people who REALLY REALLY have to have guns are precisely those who SHOULDN'T have them...

[Paladin]

7. With All Due Respect, Shatoga

I've been following your posts here in J/PS and other DU forums for some time now. It appears that you have had potentially lethal run-ins involving guns at a rate that has to be 20 times that of any other participant in this forum. Getting shot at by a kid with a .22, having the Klan lay siege to your home a few weeks ago, the list goes on and on. I'm just wondering what accounts for this.

[MrBenchley]

9. Helluva good argument, isn't it

every place he goes near, there's gunplay...sure convinces ME there's enough gun control....

Meanwhile, Chuck Norris is Quentin Crisp by comparison...

[iverglas]

15. oh, lord

I hadn't made the connection.

And here I'd been convinced that the KKK-menaced individual wasn't long for this world ...

I'm afraid that I don't want people with paranoid delusions (or ... pretences to paranoid delusions ... which is worse? ...) making the rules about the protection I will have from people with paranoid delusions (or pretences ...) *and* guns, any more than I want them having the guns ...

.

[shatoga]

25. easy enough & surprised U have payed attention

Ah paladin!
My gun grabbing buddy, whos abject fear of ever defending yourself
makes you a real standout.
Thanks for taking the bait, as always.

You see, I have lived an exciting/ though law abiding life-
whereas you have done nothing but slink from shadow to shadow in fear of being noticed/IMHO

You ignore my constant reminders that I've spent most of my life as an asshole rightwinger:

teens:
Young Republicans

20's: rightwing militias and birchers
Klan family/ Mc gang member/ Military veteran

20's: LE background and MC gang membership.
Being aginst those guys with high heels and stupid hats who beat longhairs who'd opposed Nixon's war/ while still riding a motorcycle.

30's:
Repossessed cars, still hung out with MC gangs and wore "the costume"
before learning to blend into the background.
(leather bomber jackets and boots without high heels or pointy toes really upset drunk goat ropers with revolvers it turned out)

Having a county sewer inspector come into a neighborhood where I was the only law abiding citizen.
(only one who actually complied with health laws & got permits)

40's: Learned to not wear bomber jackets and sensible boots while riding motorcycles.
However, due to keeping a conscience while moving residence:
Becoming a vocal advocate of an end to racism in the deep south.
Friends included Tuskogee Airmen and the black Doctor who opened Biloxi beaches to blacks.

50's Asking questions like "what's wrong with actually counting votes?"
in Bushylvania.
edit: Oh Yeah;
And still being a vocal advocate of an end to racism in the deep south.
Hangings and shootings still happen here they have shown me.
(neighbors:local city and county cops also drop by and visit; and voice support for my anti klan stand)

60's; thanks to gun ownership will probably also occur.

Odd isn't it that it is left out by my critics that I have a current concealed Carry permit;
Obtained, as were all the others;
Only after exhaustive investigation into my background by State cops who know all details of every incident that ever happened.

Yet they still agreed with the courts who always ruled I am a law abiding citizen who acts only in self defense.
And again authorities issue a carry permit to the guy who has had so many confrontations,
Yet never once broke the law!

Living an involved and sometimes exciting life is not illegal.

[Paladin]

30. Ever Thought About Running For President of the NRA?

Seriously.......

[shatoga]

31. National-Republican(front)-Association

I have an NRA "Eagle" card

But seriously,
The NationalRepublican(front)Association
Told US in 1992 & in 1996:
'Clinton will take your guns.'
The NationalRepublican(front)Association
Told US in 2000:
'Gore will take your guns.'

Neither of them took one single gun from anyone.
NRA IS STIRRING UP THIS ISSUE TO DIVIDE DEMOCRATS!.

I know them better than you.


Not paying attention yet are you?

I was a Right Wing Republican from birth until 1993!

Hello? Anybody home?

Most of my incidents were a result of being in the wrong company (other rightwing assholes)or wearing a club vest which offended other rightwingers who hated motorcycles.

Paladin skipped totally over that
I always have turned myself over to the custody of the nearest Police Officer after any incident;
Often testified for the prosecution;
Had my actions examined by Grand Juries with no charges filed;
Always been found to have obeyed both letter and spirit of the law.
(except once when I should have killed my assailant but did not do so when able.
"Your honor, I only wanted to stop him trying to kill me."
Found Not Guilty and Exonerated of all charges)



Writing a nasty letter to President Clinton in spring of 1993;
and getting a handwritten personal reply;
changed my whole attitude.

I looked at the pathalogical liars in the right wing and looked at the non-partisan facts.

Realized that Democrats also sell-out;
but, one-by-one, on a personal basis.
Not en-mass like neo-cons.

There is an 'aryan botherhood' in Prisons because most rightwingers have no respect for the law.

It was my respect for the law that made me a candidate for conversion
to being a Democrat.
To making my own decisions instead of parroting propaganda.

I point out above the rightwing manipulates the false gun issue for their advantage;
Instead of focusing on the real issue: " criminal use of firearms."

I was apalled to find out how many Democrats help the rightwing to divide Democrats
by misrepresenting the crime issue-as a gun issue instead.

If only we could stop trying to impose our own views on others via force of law,
and instead concentrated on ourselves obeying the law,
and letting other law-abiding citizens follow their own conscience.

That Republicans pick and choose which of the Bill of Rights to uphold 2,9 & 10 and disregard the rest is pitiful.

That Democrats also pick and choose which of the Bill of Rights to uphold is also pitiful.

Pro-choice Democrats defeat Republicans abortion pro-con divide and rule attempts.
Pro-choice Democrats can defeat Republicans pro-con RKBA divide and rule.

But now while so many Democrats take up the Republicans banner and
made their anti 2nd Amendment single issue wrongheaded stand.


Some Brits posting here; should admit criminals in Britian still obtain and use guns.

Outlawing guns just causes prices to go up.
Gun bans are no more intelligent than the war on drugs.
Which has resulted in drugs being in better supply today than when that war began.


Paladin, et al: to argue against law abiding citizens having CCW permits/
first get the permit for yourself to see how exhaustive the background check and investigation.

[iverglas]

32. now that's interesting

"Writing a nasty letter to President Clinton in spring of 1993;
and getting a handwritten personal reply;
changed my whole attitude."


I'm always interested in learning what it was that changed people's hearts and minds (and of course idly but unendingly curious about brushes with the famous).

I think we can learn from such stories. What is it that people *really* care about, as evidenced by the fact that they actually did something about it? (Not as "evidenced" by what they *say* they care about ...)

Will you tell us more? What you wrote to him about, and what he said -- and how he said it, which can be just as important? And what it was about his letter that changed your attitude?

.

[shatoga]

35. what changed my attitude

Posted by iverglas:
>...what it was about his (Clinton's) letter that changed your attitude?<

"...When you're President, everyone tells you what they think you want to hear.
My critics tell me what they believe to be the truth....
I don't want your money' I want you opinions.
Please keep in touch."

The particular issue was unimportant.
That Bill Clinton wanted 'truths as we see them' instead of lies which might please him, spoke volumes!

Also I had complained about "fat cats behind closed doors"

He included, along with the note- written on a notepad-
an application for the DNC with the "amount of contribution"
lined through and initialed "WJC".

From the note:
"...enclosed means to insure Democratic doors will not be closed to you. I don't think we have anything to hide..." WJ Clinton

My DNC card does get me into meetings which otherwise would be closed to me.
County Executive Committees, Candidates Campaign Organizing meetings,
State and National Democratic caucuses and meetings.
From experience I've learned president Clinton was truthful:
"Democrats have nothing to hide." My words.

BTW:
Associating with Democrats instead of hyper Republicans meant almost no confrontations.
Only when I encounter rightwingers is there any confrontation likely.
Even then, I prefer to watch from the shadows or leave.
Only when the kkk brought it to my own house
has there been any incident since my conversion to the Democratic Party.

[Spentastic]

10. If you asked this in England

Only Jesus could answer. I assume once again it's you darn Americans playing with the language.

[Pert_UK]

11. Hey Spen, that's even more obscure than usual.....

:-)

I don't quite follow you, sir.

P.

[Spentastic]

12. Lethal

I thought that meant .. well lethal. You can't get lethally punched in the side of the face and live. If you keep on with your lip sonny I'll demonstrate.

Shouldn't you be in bed? What time is it?

[Pert_UK]

17. What? Shatoga's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy?

:evilgrin:

Fair enough....I did actually wonder about the wording myself, but then forgot about it when I read your comment.

To be honest, this causes a problem (possibly) for both sides. If you never know whether an attack is going to be lethal, when are you allowed to use lethal force to defend yourself. It's not like you can wait until someone's killed you and then decide it might be worth taking them out first.....

P.

[shatoga]

26. commonly worded legalities we must all obey to the letter

Typical American legal jargon:

A state where many of my encounters occurred- arizona:
Arizona Revised Statues
>13-404. Justification; self-defense

A. Except as provided in subsection B of this section, a person is justified in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force.
<

And when the agressor and his buddies claim I/you 'brought it on yourself':
>3....If the person provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force, unless:

(a) The person withdraws from the encounter or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely withdraw from the encounter; and

(b) The other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful physical force against the person.
<

You see...in america...we law abiding citizens have a responsibility to attempt to run away.
If pursued,...we may then fight back with only enough force to preserve our lives against the unlawful assualt.

Like the 'cowboy' who tried to rob me at gunpoint in the wee hours of the morning.
Like the 'cowboy' who waved the six gun at me and threatened to shoot me for riding a motorcycle in his town.
Like me trying to race ahead before the hemi dodge could crash into my motorcycle from behind yet again (at over 60mph)
Like the klansman...
Get the point.
Paladin (as usual) ignores the fact that America is a nation of violent people who act with impunity if they can't see a cop nearby.

It is a country where criminals already have guns and use them with little fear of getting caught and less fear of getting convicted if caught.
We citizens are on our own.

In America, criminals kick in the doors of residential houses and rob the residents, rape and murder the witnesses to avoid potential prosecution.
And some people think if only you don't resist they won't kill you.
Forgetting that criminals who kill all potential witnesses
leave nobody alive to testify against them.

edit to correct spelling/ it always reads different after posting

[iverglas]

14. hahaha

Had to check back to that original "language", but I got it!

Maybe the question wasn't loaded as I thought it was; maybe it was just a trick question.

;)

.

[Terran]

16. Ohhhh...

I just got it. An attack "with lethal intent"--surely there's a word in the English language to describe that?

Dirk

[Pert_UK]

18. Tell us why you don't walk around in body armour & a helmet....

I haven't got time to go into my usual lengthy list of arguments today, so I'll keep it brief.

If you are sufficiently concerned about being attacked that you feel the need to carry a weapon, why don't you take more defensive precautions?

After all, a gun is only any good if you have the time and ability to pull it out and either shoot or threaten your attacker to prevent them causing you injury. What about surprise attacks e.g. being hit from behind with a length of pipe? Also, I assume that you don't walk around with your gun drawn and cocked, so what if you walk around a corner into an alleyway and stumble across a mugger holding someone at gunpoint and who swings around to point his weapon at you?

You've got to concede that if a mugger has already got his gun out and ready then he's got a better chance of getting a round off than you have......So......

If the argument REALLY IS about self-defense, and if you REALLY ARE that concerned about your personal safety, why don't you take more comprehensive, physically protective measures (e.g. kevlar vest, bullet-proof helmet) every time you leave the house? If you want to carry a gun too, fine, but it seems bizarre to me that a weapon is regarded as better defense than protection from a weapon.

By the way - I'm actually not being facetious or sarcastic on this point. It genuinely puzzles me how a gun can be regarded as better self-defense than a bullet-proof vest.

Also, don't come back with techno-babble about armour-piercing rounds or high-power pistols - carrying a gun offers no guarantee of safety, and a vest/helmet could only IMPROVE your chances of survival.

[MrBenchley]

19. I LOVE that question!!

Thanks for bringing it back...

[Pert_UK]

20. Hadn't really occurred to me before.....

But shatoga's loaded but reasonable question made me think more about the whole issue of self-defense.

OK, sometimes offense is a good form of defense, but even the most hardened pro RKBA person has surely got to concede that there are many situations where defensive armour would prove more effective than having a gun.

In addition, how about this chestnut - if you're going to go around armed, there are various situations where you would only be able to use your firearm defensively if you were also wearing armour, e.g. if the criminal got the first shot off at you.......If you're not wearing armour then you might be incapacitated and your gun taken from you. So maybe armour should be mandatory for all people who go around armed?

:-)

P.

[MrBenchley]

21. Sounds good to me (nt)

[RoeBear]

23. Carrying a gun is only one part...

...of a pro-active defense. Many who choose to carry guns take extensive training programs to stay up on current tactics to avoid having to use their gun.

One of these tactics is the color code system.

Condition Green: you're on your home turf, no strangers around

You're relaxed.

Condition Yellow: you're out of your home environment, all people invading your safety zone are to be assesed for danger OR you're on your home turf and someone unfamiliar is acting suspicious

You're paying attention to any additonal signs of trouble.

Condition Red: home or away something very suspicious is going on

You're formulating a plan to fight or flight.

So to answer your question the whole idea of a pro-active defense is to not allow that mugger into your safety zone. And if he manages to do that anyways prepare a plan to neutralize that threat.

[Pert_UK]

24. Fair enough, but I'm not sure that answers my question.......

IMHO, if you are sufficiently worried about assault/robbery to carry a lethal weapon around with you, I am surprised that you don't take the additional defensive precaution of wearing armour.

I suppose that my thought is that going out armed ought to be near to the last resort, as there are inherent additional dangers to yourself and others if you carry a gun. It ought to be your responsibility to exhaust all other defensive possibilities before you add a gun into the equation.

IMHO of course.

P.

[shatoga]

27. body armour is illegal in most parts of the USA

cops want to know their shots will have lethal effect.
Career criminals have worn body armor, so laws have been passed preventing law abiding citizens wearing body armor.
gordon liddy (right wing talk show host) has recommended right wing militia members shoot cops in the head to kill officers wearing body armor.
I believe most criminals are in sympathy with "end justifies the means" right wingers.
and further believe that most can figure out that a body shot to kevlar vs a head shot to skull
Leaves fewer witnesses alive to testify in the head shot scenario.

Do you then recommend just not leaving your home at all?
Criminals in amerika kick in doors and rob homeowners also.
Killing all witnesses often.

when cops showed up at my neighbors' home,
I went inside and left my gun, before responding to a call for corroborating testimony.

Common sense.
Don't ever face a cop while armed.
If unable to avoid...
Present your concealed carry permit, inform the officer you are armed and give the gun into their possession.

Works for me! (obey the law)

[RoeBear]

29. That is where we differ...

...greatly. I don't see carrying a gun tucked away in a holster as any additional danger to myself or others (at least others who mean me no harm). It's not like I'm going to mistake my gun for my credit card and shoot a store clerk.

Hard for some to believe but; guns rarely go off unless you pull the trigger. Just follow rule #4 of the 4 rules of gun safety. The 4th Law of Gun Safety - Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Your Sights Are On The Target!
http://www.idpa.com/safety.htm (read this link for the rest of the rules)

I might consider a Kevlar vest if I worked at a convenience store.

[RoeBear]

40. Pert...

...do you have any more questions?

[Axman]

33. One problem with your suggestion...

Body Armor is illegal in many areas for non police to possess or use.

I've tried this approach many times with gunners and it finally sunk in about what they were saying. Some areas also have outlawed pepper spray and other non lethal defensive devices.

[iverglas]

34. bad answer

"Body Armor is illegal in many areas for non police to possess or use."

So is carrying a concealed weapon, owning certain types of firearms, and various other things some people want to do and claim to be necessary in order to avert death.

Lots of brouhaha about those things -- lots of noise about how they SHOULD NOT BE illegal.

No brouhaha about body armour? Why do we hear no one making noise about how it SHOULD NOT BE illegal?

Obviously, "it's illegal" is the answer to some question, but not to the relevant question: why should it be illegal? Anyone demanding that it NOT be illegal to do whatever it is they want to do with/about firearms -- own "assault" weapons, carry firearms in public, whatever -- needs to be demanding that it NOT be illegal to wear body armour, or have some good explanation for doing one and not the other.

If they are concerned about their own AND the public's safety, I can't think what such an explanation might consist of, but I'm always willing to listen.

.

[MrBenchley]

37. Exactly so...

Why is there an uproar from RKBA "enthusiasts" about wanting assault rifles back on the market...but none from this "personal safety/self defense minded (haha)" crowd about body armor?

[bleedingheart]

22. I have been attacked twice by strangers...

the first time I was walking with two friends on my way to dinner. We were discussing the classes we had that day when two women walked straight toward me..one pushed me...the other punched me in the chest.. I was a bit winded ...the two men I was with (both about 6ft tall or so) were absolutely shocked... these women proceeded to try and taunt me into a fight..which wasn't going to happen...I walked off with my friends and had a beer to calm my nerves...

i learned was that sometimes weird stuff happens and it all happens so fast that unless I was a paranoid always waiting for that impending attack I would never be prepared...and technically I wouldn't want to kill someone who had just pushed me... Now if they had tried to come after me I would have run into the nearest store and asked them to call police.

The second attack occurred about two years later... I was walking with my then boyfriend who was an army officer... it was the first week back to campus and we were having a romantic evening stroll when four men came up to us and punched Rob in the face and then punched me (again in the chest) ... both of us fell to the ground...But Rob was quick thinking and started yelling some sort of army chant (don't ask me about it now...) really loud... which scared the living shit out of these guys...he then picked me up and carried me into the convenience that was near by... we then called police who came to get our report ...

Rob always carried a knife but didn't even think to use it...as he told me later..deadly force didn't seem necessary.

[shatoga]

28. sometimes weird stuff happens and it all happens so fast

that only someone who is able to respond instantly with lawful behavior can both defend themselves and stay out of jail while doing so.

Thanks for the stories!
Exactly what I asked for.


In your first incident.
You were unprepared.
In the second incident your friend's training took over and he intimidated them into leaving you alone.

He didn't think.
He responded as trained.

A soldier uses deadly force only when necessary.

"You can't win hearts and minds if they have constant funerals, caused by you.

Thanks for the stories!
Exactly what I asked for.

BTW training: military/martial arts/ sometimes (in better schools)
includes sudden unexpected "attacks" by instructors;
to teach 'real world' survival.

[Snow]

36. Sorry, Shatoga, never been attacked......

but here's something to chew on. I was helping with training (in public health) for a group of new Peace Corps volunteers in Korea. We were having an evening barbecue with some community (the city of Suwon) people invited who had helped with bits of training. For example, there were several martial arts instructors invited since they had kindly opened the doors of their gyms for demonstrations of Korean martial arts for our trainees. Likely hoping for new students, but still, this was good of them to do. A couple of the trainess were chatting with the Hapkido master, and as they watched me walk past a few yards off, the Hapkido master remarked to the trainees, "Your teacher there - he studies taekwondo, must be about a chodan rank?" He was exactly right, the trainees were amazed - and I'd never met the man before, so he had no way of knowing my style or rank other than watching me walk past. Very strange! But there is, as I'm sure most of you know, something about body language that can fend off attack before it even starts. That Hapkido master was simply very attuned to it and able to put a label.

[shatoga]

38. Honest story appreciated & I support your contention

the angle of the foot or hand shows which discipline you are trained in.
My TaeKwanDo kicks were with feet at 45degrees more or less.
My TangSooDo kicks are with toes pointed straight forward.
More power and better balance both from such a tiny change in style.
JeetKunDo and Hapkido both include 'any technique from any style which works for the individual'.


Body language makes us victims or "leave 'em alone" passers-by.
The mean-&-stupid-drunk may pick the baddest-of-the-bad to attack
without warning; in an attempt to prove himself.
Like the old gunfighter or swordsman mythos.


I agree though.
Face to face, street gang members usually choose me to be a passer by.

Red beret Guardians once surrounded me in a mall.
I walked through the circle as if they were not there.
(one later told me "a feeling that it would be a bad idea" prevented them from stopping me)

Myself,
Aikido/GrecoRoman/ShotoKan/Kempo/USArmy/Marine Recon/TaiKwanDo/TangSooDo
But none of them will stop a bullet.

Any mugger within reach has given me another gun or knife.

Out of reach?
I draw my weapon only as a last resort.
"RunFu" (run fu you life) beats a trial anyday!

My gun won't leave the holster unless use is both legal and necessary.

-Annoy me, and I'll stay away from you.
(and pray good fortune may take you elsewhere)
-Threaten me, I will go away, without conflict, if possible.
-Punch me, I will press assault charges, and sue for damages.
-Shoot at me & I will testify for the prosecution or before a Grand Jury.
Hurt my wife or child and hell visits you personally.
(just to be honest)
Hpothetical terms/ nothing personal towards anyone.

[Pert_UK]

39. Why did Red Beret Guardians surround you in a mall?

I don't know much about them, but aren't they the guys who try to keep the peace? What were you up to, mate, and why did they decide that physically surrounding you was necessary?

I'm not presuming that you were doing something dodgy, I'm curious.

P.

[shatoga]

41. They didn't like my looks

Posted by Pert_UK
>What were you up to, mate< :
Walking out to the parking lot to ride home from a shopping trip.

Posted by Pert_UK
>why did they decide that physically surrounding you was necessary?<
They didn't like my looks:
waist length hair
waist length beard
Levis and MC Club logo T-shirt
leather vest and boots

They made a false assumption that I must be an outlaw biker,
as shown in all those movies.
I assumed they were Billy Jack fans.
but;
I was the person alone, they were the gang.


As for them being the good guys.
their national leader was exposed as having faked an attack so he could be a 'hero'.

In most cases they are the good guys.
In many cases they become bullies and their vigilante actions break the law.

IMHO/ Police should do the policing.
Citizens should report crimes and lend assistance to the police.


On motorcycle 'gangs'
The club is not a bunch of thugs and lowlifes.
They hold honest jobs and support families.
Just like in any group; a small minority commit crimes.

Real Life (not movies)
When we went on trips "runs" letters went out to all Sheriffs, and State Police;
Telling them our planned route of travel and dates we would pass through.
We requested they suggest motels, restaurants, bars, markets, where we might be more welcome.
Usually there was a police escort from beginning to end of a trip.
Handed over at county and state lines city limits.
Cops stayed at campgrounds near us and even partied with us often.

Citizens often got arrested for trying to push us into a fight.
(for their own protection)

I've been run off the road by a car which came from a church parking lot.
John Q Public crashing into me to impress his wife and kids.

Once got hit broadside by a mini-pickup while I sat waiting for a light to change.

BTW- my bike club used to do "ride-alongs" with Police.
More than a few of us became Police Reserves and several I know became full time cops.
Blue Knights members now though.
I taught one town's first motorcycle cops how to manuver through traffic.
One old riding buddy is now a Captain in that department.

[Snow]

42. Don't feel singled out too much as a motorcycler, though....

I just moved from Omaha to LA, ride my (non-motor) bike to work here all the time. I also tried it for a while in Omaha - 2 1/2 miles to work, & I went through quiet residential streets, using the sidewalks if there was any traffic at all, & still got yelled at, stuff thrown at me, cars pushing how close they could come to me - and that would happen on quiet streets with no other traffic. So it ain't just you guys who have engines on your two-wheelers, Shatoga. Fortunately Angelenos seem much more kindly inclined towards bicyclists. I see a lot of middle-aged Hispanic guys biking to work, too. Hardly ever saw any other bicyclers in Omaha.

[Ergotron]

43. Here's an example of "guns save lives"...

A few months ago I was in a "good" area of town, walking to my car with my wife after seeing a movie. As we approached our car we noticed two men sitting on a curb nearby. One of the men got up, approached us and asked us for "some change or a couple of dollars" so he could "get back home". When I told this man I didn't have anything to give him, he produced a knife from inside his coat and insisted that I hand over my wallet and car keys to him. Also, at this time, his 'friend' got up off of the curb and walked toward the two of us. This is where it gets interesting...for him at least. He showed me his knife again, and I then showed him my everpresent Taurus .45 and asked him, none to politely, to drop the knife. His 'friend', meanwhile, was circling around behind me...where he was introduced to my wife's .32 auto. Both "gentlemen" were kind enough at that point to drop their weapons and, as they turned to leave, ran headlong into an off duty police officer who happened to see what had transpired. He also had a pistol out and pointed at the guy with the knife...Long story short, the two "panhandlers" went BACK to jail for another of their many visits, and my wife and I went home to our children...alive and uninjured.

One important note: If you are going to own and carry a firearm it is IMPERATIVE that you get proper training in it's safe and legal use. Your life, or that of your loved ones, may someday depend on it.