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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 07:14 PM
Original message
News you can use
Edited on Mon Sep-08-03 07:17 PM by Wcross
Democrats sing new tune on gun control

By Susan Page, USA TODAY

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-08-07-pilots-_x.htm


WASHINGTON — With little fanfare, the Bush administration is undoing or ignoring gun-control measures that were pursued aggressively by the Clinton administration.

And to the delight of gun-rights activists, the Democratic opposition in Congress hasn't responded with the expressions of outrage and demands for redress that have met President Bush's actions on such issues as the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty and environmental protection.

The politics of guns are changing.

Some Democratic leaders and key strategists are worried that a perception of Democrats as anti-gun is costing the party's candidates dearly among white men, rural residents and Southern voters. More than any other issue, some analysts say, unease about gun control helped defeat presidential candidate Al Gore in several traditionally Democratic Southern and border states — any one of which would have been enough to put him in the White House.

"We lost a number of voters who on almost every other issue realized they'd be better off with Al Gore," Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman, Gore's running mate, says of the gun issue. "They were anxious ... about what would happen if Al was elected. This one matters a lot to people who otherwise want to vote for us."

Frustrated gun-control advocates argue that Democrats are overreacting. They note that gun control was a powerful issue that boosted Democratic Senate candidates and hurt Republican incumbents last fall in Missouri, Michigan and Washington state. The Democratic challengers in all three states won.

"Democrats have completely misread the elections," says Joe Sudbay, public policy director of the Violence Policy Center, which supports gun control. "They are missing opportunities to show how extreme this administration is and how beholden they are to a special interest."

Overreaction or not, the gingerly approach of some Democrats has given Bush officials more running room to change regulations, abandon programs and set new policies about guns throughout the administration.

"The NRA has for years called for more aggressive prosecution efforts against the illegal use of firearms and less focus on new restrictions for law-abiding people, and the Bush administration is doing just that," says James Jay Baker, legislative director of the National Rifle Association. The gun-rights group this year bumped the American Association of Retired Persons from the top of Fortune's list of the most powerful Washington lobbies. "Clearly we're in a better atmosphere so far for law-abiding gun ownership," Baker says.

But the Bush administration hasn't done everything the NRA wants, Baker says. As an example, he notes that Attorney General John Ashcroft ordered the FBI to reduce the period of time the agency holds criminal background check records on gun buyers from 90 days to 24 hours.

"We would prefer that records on law-abiding individuals be destroyed immediately," Baker says. "We think one day is too long."

A 'sea change'

Democratic Sens. Charles Schumer of New York and Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts have introduced a bill that would force the FBI to hold the records of gun buyers for at least 90 days to check for fraud and abuse by gun sellers.

Even supporters of the idea see little chance that Congress will move to reverse Ashcroft's decision, however.

Neither Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota nor House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt has made the issue a priority on the Democratic agenda. And that step is only one of several the Bush administration has taken involving guns.

"They've been very quiet about it, ... but they're very serious," Schumer says.

"It's been a virtual sea change," says Rep. Bob Barr, R-Ga., who was just elected to a second 3-year term on the NRA board.

"In terms of the tone and the general feeling of appreciation and understanding of the Second Amendment, it represents a complete reversal of the last 8 years."

In recent months:

The State Department opposed an international accord intended to curtail the sale of small arms to organized crime figures and combatants in civil wars. U.S. officials argued that the language calling for restrictions on civilian gun ownership violated Americans' constitutional right to bear arms. The objections prompted a significant revision in the final agreement that proponents complain weakened it.
The Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) eliminated funds for a Clinton administration program started in 1999 that provided federal grants for police departments to buy guns off the street, especially around public housing projects. Supporters said the program removed 20,000 guns from the streets of 80 cities in its first year, but administration officials questioned those numbers and said the money could be better spent on drug and other programs. A proposal this month to shift $15 million from drug programs to the gun buyback program was defeated in the Senate, 65 to 33.
HUD backed away from an agreement between the Clinton administration and Smith & Wesson. The gun manufacturer had agreed to provide gun locks and develop new technologically advanced gun safety devices. But as reported by The Wall Street Journal, the administration is not doing anything to pursue the memorandum of understanding.
The Justice Department is asserting a new interpretation of the Second Amendment, which says, "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." For six decades, the Supreme Court has seen it to mean there is a collective right to own guns through state and federal militias.
In a letter written to Baker in May, Ashcroft said he believes the Constitution "unequivocally" protects the rights of individuals to own guns — an individual right, not a collective one.

The issue is at the heart of a Texas case now being considered by the U.S. Court of Appeals that might be headed to the Supreme Court.

Bush also has moved to stiffen enforcement of gun laws. In a program called Project Safe Neighborhoods, he promised to add prosecutors focused on gun crimes and proposed $44 million in federal funding to help states upgrade criminal background records.

"The president understands there's a balance" when it comes to guns, White House spokesman Dan Bartlett says. Bush supports stricter enforcement and gun safety, he says, "but the president also understands that law-abiding Americans have the right to protect themselves and their families."

Stealth warfare

Even so, the administration isn't any more eager to spotlight the issue of guns than the Democrats are. If being seen as anti-gun hurts Democrats among white men and rural residents, being seen as pro-gun could hurt Republicans among women and suburbanites.

"They're paying back the NRA without wanting to pay the price with suburban voters," Republican analyst Marshall Witmann says of the White House. With both parties anxious about the issue, he says, "This is stealth warfare on both sides."

Gun ownership proved to be a stunning fault line in the 2000 election. Voters divided almost evenly into those who had guns at home and those who didn't, 48% to 52%. Those with guns voted overwhelmingly for Bush. Those without voted decisively for Gore.

"How did Bush carry West Virginia, Arkansas and Tennessee, and how did he survive in Ohio?" Republican pollster Bill McInturff asks. "It was because Bush's margin was so extraordinarily high in rural areas. And there's no question that in rural America ... the gun issue was huge."

Even former president Bill Clinton, in discussions with friends and associates, blames the money and organizational muscle of a resurgent NRA for costing Gore the electoral votes of Clinton's home state of Arkansas. Going county by county in the state he served as governor, Clinton calculates that Gore lost Arkansas because his support was squelched in some rural counties where Democrats need to roll up big margins if they hope to win statewide.

The cover of the current issue of Blueprint, the magazine published by the centrist Democratic Leadership Council, promises important advice inside: "What Democrats Should Do About Guns." The prescription, advocated by leaders of a group called Americans for Gun Safety, is to balance talk of gun owners' "responsibilities" to accept safety measures with an explicit commitment to gun rights.

Other gun-control groups disagree, however, and their differences over how to operate in the changed political landscape have split their ranks and weakened their clout. They already are dwarfed by the NRA and the gun-rights lobby, which contributed nine times as much as gun-control advocates did in campaign contributions in the last election cycle.

Americans for Gun Safety is supporting a proposal to close a loophole that permits unregulated sales of weapons at gun shows. The bill is co-sponsored in the Senate by Lieberman and Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona. They say it is an effort to find common ground on "sensible" gun-control proposals.

But the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence has declined so far to take a formal position for or against the bill. And the Violence Policy Center opposes it, arguing that it would open new loopholes.

Should Democrats be more restrained in talking about guns? Or more outspoken?

"The people who vote this way (against gun control) are only 15% of the country, and they're not voting for Democrats anyway," Schumer argues.

"On the other hand, really the bulk of voters are very much on our side. So might you lose votes in certain places? Yeah. But for every vote you lose, you pick up two or three if you draw the issue."

But so far, Schumer acknowledges, Democrats have been "quiet" in opposing Bush on guns.

"Maybe people have been focused on other issues," he says.

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Says it all...
"Should Democrats be more restrained in talking about guns? Or more outspoken?
"The people who vote this way (against gun control) are only 15% of the country, and they're not voting for Democrats anyway," Schumer argues.
"On the other hand, really the bulk of voters are very much on our side. So might you lose votes in certain places? Yeah. But for every vote you lose, you pick up two or three if you draw the issue." "


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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes it does.
Edited on Mon Sep-08-03 07:33 PM by Wcross
I picked a small part that supports my theory;

"We lost a number of voters who on almost every other issue realized they'd be better off with Al Gore," Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman, Gore's running mate, says of the gun issue. "They were anxious ... about what would happen if Al was elected. This one matters a lot to people who otherwise want to vote for us."

Who is correct? Schumer or Lieberman?
Schumer hasn't had to campaign in the way Lieberman has, Schumer only has to worry about what works in New York state
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Please
go on up to General Discussion and tell them that Joe Lieberman knows what he's talking about....I could use a BIG laugh...
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Then Mr. Clinton
"Even former president Bill Clinton, in discussions with friends and associates, blames the money and organizational muscle of a resurgent NRA for costing Gore the electoral votes of Clinton's home state of Arkansas. Going county by county in the state he served as governor, Clinton calculates that Gore lost Arkansas because his support was squelched in some rural counties where Democrats need to roll up big margins if they hope to win statewide."

I don't want to discuss the NRA- I know they favor the other side, I want to discuss how to win votes in the rural south. I still assert that embracing gun control may have cost Gore the election (among other things).
Is it possible?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yeah?
Do you wonder why they don't quote him directly?

"in discussions with friends and associates"
Wonder if that was another illegal phone intercept...
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Humor me
Please answer the question I posed?

I still assert that embracing gun control may have cost Gore the election (among other things).
Is it possible?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. It's what the NRA wants you to believe
but I don't think so....
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1a2b3c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
40. I voted for Nader
Not just because of Gores stance on guns, but it was a part of it.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Good job!
Thanks for nothing...
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Tinfoil Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #41
51. Do you really

think the WTC even would not have happened if Gore was in the whitehouse??


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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Do YOU really think
Al would have put his thumb up his ass and gone on a month-long vacation if he'd gotten those warnings?

Do you think Al would have ignored terrorism once he got in office?
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Axman Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
54. Unfortunately, there is a direct quote...
Here is an excerpt from the 1995 State of the Union address as given by then President Clinton...

"I don't want to destroy the good atmosphere in the room or in the country tonight, but I have to mention one issue that divided this body greatly last year. The last Congress also passed the Brady bill and in the crime bill the ban on 19 assault weapons.

I don't think it's a secret to anybody in this room that several members of the last Congress who voted for that aren't here tonight because they voted for it. And I know, therefore, that some of you that are here because they voted for it are under enormous pressure to repeal it. I just have to tell you how I feel about it.

The members who voted for that bill and I would never do anything to infringe on the right to keep and bear arms to hunt and to engage in other appropriate sporting activities. I've done it since I was a boy, and I'm going to keep right on doing it until I can't do it anymore.

But a lot of people laid down their seats in Congress so that police officers and kids wouldn't have to lay down their lives under a hail of assault-weapon attacks, and I will not let that be repealed. I will not let it be repealed."

Source URL: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/states/docs/sou95.htm

No matter how much we want it, we need to realize that our current tactics ARE losing us elections. This is why I have dedicated myself to working on finding ways of making America safer while not coming underfire of the gun owners. This is why I've spent several Saturday's at a shooting range learning about guns.

I share you concern but we can't ignore the simple fact that the gun owners are a force that does have a lot of political power. We have basically screwed ourselves because of our embellishments and I hate to say it, out right misleading information. If we are to gain anymore headway in this fight, we have to stop with the crap and lies and we must legitimize our arguments. Things like "designed to spray bullets while shooting from the hip" and calling guns weapons of mass destruction makes us seem like a bunch of quacks.

Attacking areas where there is honestly no reason to do so has hurt us as well. I've done the research and you can too. Assault rifles and sniper rifles are not an issue. We need to concentrate on the handguns and we need to do it in a way that won't get us burned.


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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. AND???????
Assault rifles in the streets is a good idea because we ought to be afraid of a corrupt industrry and a handful of lunatic supporters?

History has shown Clinton was right...the AWB ban and the Brady Bill were damn good ideas and helped cut down crime. But more needs to be done.

"Assault rifles and sniper rifles are not an issue. "
Yeah, surrrrrrrrrrre....that's why the gun lobby is spending all that money.
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Axman Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. You miss my point...
Why expend the energy on assault rifles when they are used in a fraction of the crimes that handguns are... let's work on the main problem then focus on the other issues. right now, we are wasting resources.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. Hey, I'm for gun control
and so are most voters...
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Axman Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. So am I...
But my main concern is the use of firearms in crime. The number one problem is handguns. There are very, very few assault rifles and sniper rifles used in crimes. As far as I am concerned, they are not an issue that needs to be addressed at this time. By doing so, we are diluting our efforts to the point of ineffectiveness. By rabidly going after every gun just for the buzz words is destroying our credibility and our effectiveness.

Look at the 50 caliber rifles. I've yet to find where one has been used in a crime in the US. Yes, I've heard about the supposed use by the Branch Davidians and I've found ample evidence to give valid question as to whether the guns were used there. Why are we wasting our time and money to fight to get these things banned? I don't see the need for a ban on them or any other rifle for that matter. Yet, there is a huge effort and a great deal of money being thrown into the idea of banning these guns. What has the result been? A massive increase in sales of these guns resulting in the exact opposite ending from what was intended.

Handguns on the other hand are used daily in robberies, murders, and other crimes. I don't think a ban is a realistic solution but I do think that more stringent background checks shouldn't be out of the question. I'm beginning to question the idea of a registry as well. The more I look into that idea, I see how the Canadians are reacting to their gun registry and I've found documentation regarding the NFA registry and massive errors which have resulted in people going to jail even though they have abided by the law.

If we could get a more comprehensive background check system in place along with harsher penalties that are enforced for illegal use or possesion of a handgun, I think we would see a difference in crime.

I don't buy into the "children" crap that Brady pushes. I agree with the gunners that education is the key there. I've attended both the Brady gun safety class and the NRA gun safety class that are given for children. The programs are nearly identical in scope of the material taught.

We need to stop ignoring the facts. That hurts us. We need to acknowledge that yes, some of the gunners arguments are legitimate but so are some of ours. We need to concentrate on ours and stop wasting time fighting a losing battle.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. I'm not disagreeing....
But trying to pretend that assault rifles and 50 caliber sniper rifles are harmless is silly.....
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Axman Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. I never said they were...
But why waste time on them when there are more pressing problems? It's like having a car fire on the side of the road while you are checking the tires for the right air pressure.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. The first flash point I see
after defeating the horrible "no liabilty for guns" bill IS the AWB ban, which will expire next year unless we act....everything else will probably have to wait until after the election.
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Axman Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. I have mixed feelings about that...
First of all, I abhored the sunset clause and still do. Not just because of the focus which is on guns but I don't like the idea of a temporary law that outlaws something only for a short time then expires. Some how, it just doesn't sit well with me.

About the "no liability for guns" bill... I agree with it. Have you read the text of the bill? I have and I think it's a good idea not for the gun issue but all across the board. I run a manufacturing business. We make things like ram presses and other industrial tool material. Most of the stuff we make can easily kill a person if used criminally or incorrectly. If someone takes a 50 ton ram press and crushes somebodys head with it, I don't want to be liable for their actions.

This is a big problem with our society. We as a nation seem to have this obsession with shifting the blame and making others responsible for a persons action. I read that a judge is allowing the lawsuits to go through for people suing the airlines for the 9/11 hijackings. Please, how is the airlines responsible for the actions of the murderers that hijacked the planes and flew them into buildings?

It just doesn't make sense and we need to put the brakes on thise kind of thing now.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. Really a question for another thread, but
"Please, how is the airlines responsible for the actions of the murderers that hijacked the planes and flew them into buildings?"
Al Gore and his Airline Security Taskforce made a number of specific recommendations in 1996. Had they been in placed, the hijackings would not have occured. They were blocked by airline lobbyists and the GOP.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #67
71. So, your solution....
is (figuratively) mass suicide by Democrats? How many more Democratic office holders are you willing to lay on your gun-control altar in a forlorn hope?

Schumer's seat is safe. That's not true of a LOT of other Democrats. Are you willing to lose another 30-50 Democratic seats in Congress? Because that's what would happen, and it STILL wouldn't pass.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. No my solution is the one the voters want
which is to keep assault weapons off the street and strengthen the law.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Thanks for the post. The focus on handguns is logical but a solution
that does not infringe on RKBA has not yet been proposed.

The groups who want to ban handguns have yet to prove that criminals would obey such a law.

Handguns are the most efficient and effective arms available for millions of people who wish to exercise their inalienable right to defend self and property as acknowledged in such state consitutions as the

QUOTE
Article CVI. Article I of Part the First of the Constitution is hereby annulled and the following is adopted:-
All people are born free and equal and have certain natural, essential and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness. Equality under the law shall not be denied or abridged because of sex, race, color, creed or national origin.
UNQUOTE {emphasis added}

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Axman Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. I don't think a ban is the answer...
I've given myself headaches thinking about this. I also don't think a registry is the answer either for the simple fact that it will never be accepted by gun owners and the documented problems with the Canadian registration system and the US NFA registry. My question would be, what would be acceptable in an effort to limit crime? I would support more thorough background checks and harsher penalties for illegal possession and use of a handgun.

I don't think there is any simple answer. I know that as a person concerned with gun safety, I cannot ignore the problems that exist and that are enhanced by guns. On the other hand, I cannot ignore the rights and feelings of the gun owning population in the US. Where is the line drawn?
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. You say "harsher penalties for illegal possession and use of a handgun"
but we don't enforce current federal laws, see TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS.

Criminals ignore them because they are not enforced. :shrug:
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shatoga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Harsher penalties for illegal USE is OK by me!
Mere posession by a law abiding citizen is something only a police state:
Nazi Germany
Communist Russia
or
Bushyylvania would even consider/IMHO
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ronatchig Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Saay
I beleive that Dean has it just right on the Gun issue.
Just so happens that I am a Southern White Male who voted for Al three times. And would again. The propaganda on this issue has been layed on thick ay the rightmares as usual. While Clinton fought for sensible registraion of fire arms and oppossed automatic weapons sales, he was by no means out to gather up the guns as it was portrayed.
that being said Dean knocked this one out of the park on them. I heard him on C-span late last year say that he believes that gun regulation should be state issue since what makes sense in rural NC may not be as attractive in Boston or Chicago
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Believe me Benchy, Lieberman knows how to lose elections...
just look at his pathetic attempt to win the party's nomination. He knows what doesn't work.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. So we should sure jump on his bandwagon now...
I guess that's RKBA "logic"
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. You already are on his anti gun bandwagon...
that's why your side usually loses.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Gee, town, aren't you pimping for Joe's change?
"that's why your side usually loses."
Another telling remark from a "Democrat."
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. I know from experience that it can be difficult from many anti gunners to
Edited on Tue Sep-09-03 11:07 AM by Township75
grasp some concepts, even when the are NOT difficult.

Joe's method for closing the gun show loophole is unacceptable to me, but I would bet you would like it. He also has a very anti gun voting record, and supports the AWB...that sounds like you.

And that loses us elections, which you work so hard at doing. Now go pimp for the Repubs and try and lose us some elections. I will work for us to win some...GO DEAN!

Oh, by the way Benchy, Dean = A+ NRA RATING....so you must think he pimps for the repubs, huh?
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. And I Know From Experience.......
....that some pro-gunners are constantly wiping drool off their guns.

Your point??
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. I guess you missed it. *
*
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Gee town
the only person having trouble grasping concepts seems to be you.
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. I don't need your help proving my points...
Edited on Tue Sep-09-03 11:45 AM by Township75
but I am not going to stop you...prove-on, benchy!
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Gee town
you seem to need all the help you can get...so your point is that we should listen to Joe Lieberman and reject gun control as this bullshit article implies,because he is FOR gun control?

I guess that's what passes for RKBA "logic".
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. Karl Rove will funnel millions to the Scary Brady Bunch and
the Violence Policy Center to make certain independent voters believe that all Democrats want to ban all firearms.

Then we can have Feindstein go on national prime time TV and be introduced as "Democratic Senator Diane Feinstein" for the sole purpose of explaining how important it is to ban handguns and assualt weapons. :puke:
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. And Jody will do all he can to help Karl spread the word
"Then we can have Feindstein go on national prime time TV and be introduced as "Democratic Senator Diane Feinstein" for the sole purpose of explaining how important it is to ban handguns and assualt weapons."
And all but a handful of lunatics will agree....
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. And that handful
Might have pushed Gore over the top in Florida. (The fraud in palm beach excluded)
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Gee, but since
the GOP, with the $$ help of the gun industry, blocked the count we'll never know....
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Gee, but since...
a loud minority of Dems want to push their anti gun agenda, the issue had to make it to the supreme court rather than being unquestionably decided at the voting booth....way to go anti gun nuts!
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Gee, town
Are you really telling us the ONLY reason Jeb jiggered the election was his commitment to gun nuts?

Hell, how many MORE Democrats and soccer moms might have turned out if Al had hit the issue harder?
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #16
72. yup....
Hit it harder....when it cost us Tenn, West Virginia, and Ohio...

If any ONE of those states had gone to Gore, Florida wouldn't have mattered.

Why didn't Gore take his home state? Most people think it's because he supported more useless gun laws.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Toast to the post!
:toast:
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Yeah
But thats reality. He lost other states he SHOULD have won. That is what has to be overcome in 2004.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. And the way you do that
is NOT by bending over and becoming Republican-wannabes...especially since most Americans support more gun control.
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Link please
If you have a non-biased link to the polling results I would be interested. I would really like to see results that break the results down by states. Gun control is an issue that is popular in some states, but not in others. Obviously something went wrong in Tennessee,West Virginia, and Arkansas. I am not suggesting the Democratic party become DEpublicans, I am suggesting that the gun issue might have negitive effects in 2004.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Here's the one I like
www.norc.uchicago.edu/new/gunrpt.htm

"I am not suggesting the Democratic party become DEpublicans"
sure seems like it to me.....
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Take a look at your survey
When broken down into rural/suburb/big city in almost every catagory Rural respondents had a lower % of approval for gun laws. States with higher rural populations will probably have a lower tolerance for more gun laws. Who needs em? Well with our election system, I say we do.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. So?
"States with higher rural populations will probably have a lower tolerance for more gun laws."
So we should let assault rifles on the streets of cities and suburbs, where 80% of the people live, because yokels want them? Uh-huh.

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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
42. Electoral college
Seems to me unless the way the vote is counted can be changed, something has to be done. Now I am not saying give up gun control efforts, but to rub it in "Bubba the undecided voters" face right before an election is a great way to lose the contest. I really think that million Mom March had a Negitive effect on independent voters who, like it or not, saw it as a democratic event.

I am a gun owner, yet I have decided that background checks for all gun sales wouldn't be a bad idea, I have no criminal record. I don't have any problem with cities, counties, or even states doing what the voters want in regards to gun control. I do have a problem with one size fits all national gun laws. I am sitting in the middle of a 100 acre farm in Tennessee. My nearest neighbor is a mile away, police protection is sparse in my county. I can not, and will not comply with any law that says I can't have a firearm. That is my line in the sand.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Year, ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght....
"I really think that million Mom March had a Negitive effect on independent voters who, like it or not, saw it as a democratic event. "
Why--other than that "women should be subservient" crap? The Million Mom March was perfectly reasonable...except to fanatics and the corrupt gun industry.
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Thats my take on it n/t
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. Tell us, cross
Doesn't it seem strange to you that these articles telling us what Democrats think can't quote a single Democrat at all on the topic...the only Democratic quote I see is hapless Joe Lieberman...and even then it's not clear that he's endorsing the point of the article.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Furthermore, rural voters WANT gun control
Yeah, the percentages are lower than among city dwellers...

But 72% of rural voters still want all gun owners licensed, 74% of rural voters want mandatory background checks and five day waiting periods, 73% of rural voters want checks on private sales, 90% of rural voters want federal safety standards for guns, 80% of rural voters want childproof handguns, and 63% of rural voters want restrictions on ammuntion sales.

And 66% of rural voters think Congress should hold hearings on gun industry practices.
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Axman Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
61. Can you provide a link to these statistics?
I'd be very interested in reading more on those numbers.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. It's further up the thread
www.norc.uchicago.edu/new/gunrpt.htm

Download the in-depth pdf files and you'll find that many of the gun control measures the RKBA crowd is pouting and shouting about are even favored by a majority of gun owners.
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Axman Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #65
70. Unfortunately, that study is skewed...
I've had many issues with the University of Chicago and their studies. What is interesting is some of their fact finding material in the actual study is directly contradictary to FBI and ATF data. When I get home tonight, I'll put together the discrepancies and post them.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
18. Very funny...
Here's the core of an article supposedly telling us what Democrats think.....

"says James Jay Baker, legislative director of the National Rifle Association."
"says Rep. Bob Barr, R-Ga., who was just elected to a second 3-year term on the NRA board."
"In a letter written to Baker in May, Ashcroft said "
"Republican pollster Bill McInturff asks."

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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Schumer weighs in?
Hey, it was an article from the McPaper. They happened to quote democrats as well. I don't think you can paint this as RKBA lies.
Oh, it doesn't matter what die hard democrats think about the gun issue, it is the independent voters that will win elections.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. And what did Schumer have to say?
"They happened to quote democrats as well. I don't think you can paint this as RKBA lies. "
Yeah, surrrrrrre....
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Schumer says
What his constituents want to hear. My congressman, Bart Gordon (D) also is in tune with his. Thats how he keeps getting re-elected, he is pro-gun. It wouldn't work for Mr. Schumer in New York, but it works for Bart in Tennessee.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. So in other words
Edited on Tue Sep-09-03 08:56 AM by MrBenchley
the story is hooey.

Funny thing about Bart Gordon....according to your fellow gun nuts, he's a gun grabber like me.

"In May of 1998, I volunteered for the campaign of Walt Massey, a Republican candidate for Tennessee’s Sixth Congressional seat. He was running against Bart Gordon, a fourteen-year Democratic incumbent who had voted for both the Brady Bill and the Crime Bill."

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6957/nrabrd.html

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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
32. Your Link Goes to A Different Article
I clicked on your link and got the following:

Gun-control debate gets muzzled

By Laura Parker, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON —
On the same day last month, five factory workers in Mississippi were shot and killed by a co-worker and five people in a family in Bakersfield, Calif., were killed by gunfire.
Not too long ago, dramatic slayings such as these would have created a new chapter in the national debate over gun control. There would have been angry speeches in Congress and new proposals to crack down on firearms.

But today, there is mostly silence.

<more>


BTW, you violated DU's copyright rule - you-re only supposed to post a PORTION of an article.......


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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. And you'll notice that this new link
leads to a new pile of horseshit telling us Democrats don't support gun control anymore. How do we know? Just look at these Democratic sources:

"Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, says..."

"Republican pollster David Winston asked..."

"Lawrence Keane, general counsel of the National Shooting Foundation, says ...."



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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #33
46. Hard
Hard to do a story about guns without talking to both sides :)
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #46
52. No it isn't
These boobs managed to do it twice....stories about what Democrats "think" without a single Democrat on record.

What this most reminds me of is all those stories during 2000 about how unhappy Democrats were that Al Gore was running...which somehow never found a single Democrat to quote but always ended up with Republican shill Frank Luntz front and center...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-09-03 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. No, YOU Violated the Rule - TWICE In This Thread
From the DU Message Board Rules. Emphasis mine:

Don't post entire copyrighted articles. If you wish to reference an article, provide a brief excerpt and include a link to the original source. Generally, excerpts should not exceed three or four paragraphs.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. I'm removing the second article
Wcross, try reading the copyright notice at the bottom of the article, which you posted along with the article: "Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed." DU takes those notices VERY seriously.

Repost the article if you want--a maximum of four paragraphs is allowed. Admin will edit your original post according to the rules.

Dirk - DU Moderator
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
49. wcross
Please review DU's rules regarding posting of copyrighted material--a maximum of four paragraphs may be excerpted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#copyright

Thanks,

Dirk - DU Moderator
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #49
68. Sorry Dirk
I apologize, I did not review the rules as I should have.
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